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1958 Nash Metropolitan
I read some of the funny (scary) comments about driving them on here so thought I'd ad to the race. I just bought a 1958 in great shape. Unfortunately, I'd never heard one running before. I've read adds that say "purrs like a kitten" etc so expected a nice quiet engine. That thing is LOUD. Of course having had new cars my entire LONG adult life, I figured I didnt know what to expect. It's in perfect shape, all orginial interior white leather looks NEW. I know they love it, but the loud freaked me out. then talk about play in the steering wheel. he said that was normal. So what is "NORMAL?" Am i going to kill my 13 yr old daughter and 4 yr old niece? lol...
I let the they are so cute override my common sense.
I let the they are so cute override my common sense.
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The Metropolitan was always a rather bad-handling, bad braking car, so your feelings of insecurity are well-founded; also no doubt the car needs shocks, and is probably running on old bias ply tires. The suspension design on the car is very strange and was probably an error.
There are things you can do...such as laying Dyna-mat under the carpets and firewall, adjusting the valves, and perhaps installing a quieter muffler. New shocks and radial tires will help with the handling.
As for the steering box, unless it has been rebuilt recently it is probably just worn out; after all, this is a nearly 50 year old car and most people pay no attention to the steering box.
They ARE cute and you'll get lots of attention. But you have to be realistic that this is basically a low-speed city car. If you had dreams of long freeway driving and twisty mountain roads, you're going to have to re-engineer the car to do those things.
But at least you can get engine parts out of an MGA catalog (it's the 1500 cc engine).
So quiet 'er down, drive slow and have fun.
I know she isn't for long holiday trips. We live in the greater Seattle area with a lot of slow traffic so I should fit in fine!
I think I found a mechanic who "loves to work on old cars" to come and pay us a visit when she arrives.
She does have two year old tires, so hey one thing off the list.
Colleen
I trust your mechanic understands British engines (basically an Austin unit)? The car itself is not hard to work on. You'll be amazed how some carpeting and underlayment will cut down the noise.
And by all means pull the wheels and check the brakes on the car.
These cars can run reliably and safely but just don't fling them into turns at high speed. They are NOT sports cars and shouldn't be driven like one.
Yes, good suggestion. Have the exhaust system inspected for leaks and rust. A local muffler shop should be able to fit any variety of mufflers or pipes under there--it's a very simple car.
There are certainly people who know a lot more about the car than I do, and parts are available for restoration. Just "google" away and all sorts of stuff will pop up.
It's a fun little car and I hope you enjoy it! I wouldn't mind owning one myself.
If nothing else, she is saving me money as with the multi-car discount, my rate for both cars is $10 bucks a month less.
There are many places to get necessary parts, so i think i'll be fine.
Thanks for the advise.
I dunno how true this is, but I heard that back when cars had bias-ply tires, the suspensions were firmer to counteract the softer, squishier tires. When they started using radial tires, which are firmer, the suspensions were actually made "softer". So, back in the early 70's, for instance, when Pontiac was playing up that "RTS tuned" stuff, making it sound all sporty, what they were really doing is just softening them up!
The only direct comparison I can comment on, personally, was with a 1969 Dart GT. It had bias ply tires when I bought it, but I put on some 205/70/R14 radials. I remember the bias ply tires used to go crazy on highways with truck ruts, or overpasses where you have that metal seam that separates the concrete patches and runs parallel to the direction of the road (not the perpendicular metal seam where the road goes from asphalt to concrete as you get on the overpass). It was also VERY easy to make the sucker squeal in turns, without even trying. The radial tires made a world of difference, making it corner better, truck ruts and such no longer bothered it, and I don't remember any real detriment to ride quality.
My '67 Catalina most likely had bias ply tires when it was new, but by the time I bought it, it was shod in 215/75/R14 radials. It always had a bad habit of tossing hubcaps, which my mechanic attributed to the car having radial tires on it. It only seems to throw the right front hubcap, though. Until the last time I took it out, it decided to ditch the right rear. I found it after about 5 minutes of searching. Naturally, since I'm allergic to poison ivy, it landed in a nice big patch of it!
here's a guy who really likes them. Very interesting and complimentary (did I spell that right?) article:
http://www.allpar.com/cars/adopted/nash-metropolitan.html
Not sure about living with 0-60 in 30 seconds however! Gee, that makes a Mercedes 300D seem fast at 19 seconds.
How would a Metropolitan act at 60 mph? I'm just getting this mental image of a jittery, flighty thing, especially if it encounters truck ruts or cross-winds.
As for acceleration, it's kinda interesting, but while America is fixated on 0-60 times, I imagine that it's actually pretty rare that I do 0-60 as quickly as 19 seconds! Heck, sometimes, I probably don't even do it in 30! There's just no need to.
But then, I guess you still have to drive a Metropolitan flat-out to get that 30 second 0-60 time, and that might be a bit more disconcerting than loafing something that can do 0-60 in 10-12 seconds up to 60, because you can always just stomp on it more to get it moving quicker if you really have to.
I don't think 0-60 is too relevant for the Met, any more than it would be for a '50s VW, Renault, or Morris Minor. Most of your driving would probably be very local, at speeds not exceeding 55. And for that occasional drive to an out-of-town car show, you could either tow it, or cruise at 60 in the far right lane. But wait a minute, if it's got a 1500 cc MGA motor, shouldn't 0-60 be a little quicker than 30 seconds? I know it's no Viper (Nash Metropolitan, I knew Dodge Viper, and Nash Met, you are no Dodge Viper!), but maybe we're underestimating the Metropolitan's acceleration.
But yeah, the later Met would be "faster" than the earlier ones with the little Austin...is it...A40....engine?
It might have the same motor, but I wonder if it would have a suckier transmission, or taller gearing, or something else holding it back? My old car book lists that engine as a 73.8 CID (probably around a 1.2-1.3L) from 1954-56, having 42 hp, with an optional 90.9 CID version (1.5L) having 52 hp. From 1959-62 hp was listed at "55/52"...I dunno what the 3 hp discrepancy was. Transmission options, maybe? I know back then, sometimes the automatic had a different hp rating from the manual. But could you even get an automatic in a Metropolitan? I think Nashes used GM 4-speed HydraMatics, and I seriously doubt one of those would fit in a Met! Coming from England though, I imagine a Met would have used some British auto tranny, if one was available.
My book also says that the 42 hp version struggled to break 70 mph, whereas the 1.5 would hit 80. Didn't the VW Bug top out around 70-75?
Let's see...that might cost about....oh, never mind.
I'm still awaiting delivery and am hoping for it to be as mechanically sound as the outside is.
You guys are scaring me though.
<img src[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/parrotnoid/DSCF2246.jpg[/IMG]
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/parrotnoid/DSCF2246.jpg
This is the Metropolitan referred to in my previous post. Cool, huh ? :shades:
Portholes and wire wheels with racing mirrors and a goddess hood ornament? A bit much!
Yes, criticizing the heart-stopping handling characteristics of a little Met is like pointing to a puppy or a baby and saying "Ewwwwww, how repulsive". It's a no-win situation to suggest to Met lovers that they need TWO St. Christopher medals in those things.
However, cuteness is a powerful attraction and I'm just as seduced as anyone else. There is something charming about them. Were I a Jay Leno type with enough money to gleefully throw into a raging furnace, I would love to take a Met and give it the ability to accelerate, stop and steer without ruining its basic puppy-like nature. A puppy with fangs maybe.
Given the odd suspension, I'm not sure how one would get the car to handle better. I'd imagine that ultimately one would have to take the body off, and alter the frame so that a more modern suspension could be outfitted, and then hope the body will get back on without hitting something. Probably I would use only the shell of the Met and the interior, and the rest of the car would be something else. Perhaps we could fit it to the frame of a Mazda RX-7...that would give us good handling, a small engine that would fit without chopping, a 5-speed transmission, good performance, etc.
Or a Volvo P100 frame and drivetrain might work.
I guess we really need a donor car with a real FRAME underneath. Maybe a Fiat 124?
I just love the way you guys respond. If I'd posted this on some of the UK Forums it would just have attracted abuse - like it's not got 500bhp, a sequential 'box, 20" rims and does 0-60 in 0.03 seconds so isn't a real car. Airheads.
20 some years ago, I had a '59 Metro convertible, I loved the car, but it spent more time in the shop than it did on the road. After having the engine rebuilt, and doing a lot of brake, transmission and cosmetic work, I sold the car to my dad. He has plans for it, but his other project cars have taken precedence. Along the way, he acquired a '61 hardtop for parts.
I may buy the '61 from him, but I can't imagine restoring it to mechanically original condition. As I recall, the suspension was super floaty, the brakes were inadequate for modern driving, and, though my '59 got 40mpg, the acceleration was anemic. So, I'm thinking it needs much more than an engine swap.
The M-5 Miata's wheelbase was about 4 inches longer than the Metro. Track was about 10 inches wider at both ends. It had the same general layout (front mount, inline 4, rear mount transmission). I know that this job would exceed my meager talents (I'm good at rebuilding carbs, the odd brake job, and making things shiny) but is it possible that a skillful shop could take all of the Miata mechanicals, suspension and such and graft it on to the Metro's body? :confuse: How do I even find out if this is feasible? I've tried Google searches for all sorts of Metro Miata combinations and your post is the only thing I have found.
I hope you check in on this forum occasionally, alltorque, because I'd like to pursue this line of thought.
I suppose you could leave the Metro frame on there and install some other front suspension, but wow, that's a lot of work to get right.
But really with enough time money and talent you can do anything:
I'm also quite sure I've seen hot rod Metros at the Good Guys shows that had attached custom tube frames to the underside to stiffen things up enough to handle the extra power. It would be a shame goose it at a green light and twist your little car into a pretzel...
It's been a long time since I looked underneath a Metro. I'm surprised it is a unibody.
Here's an article from Automobile Magazine that has some interesting (and funny) comments:
Automobile Magazine on the Metro
The Metropolitan is actually French in origin, isn't it? The Europeans no doubt went to unitized designs long before "we" did. Although in their defense, Nash went unitized starting in 1949.
I don't see why it would be so hard to drop a unitized body down on a frame. After all, most unitized cars have a sub-frame up front and a sub-frame in the back. The only thing keeping them from being body-on-frame is the lack of the center section. And I've seen Chevy II's with subframe connectors and I think they made them for Mustangs as well.
The biggest problem with the Metro, I imagine, is that it's such a tiny car that it would be hard to find a suitable donor frame. Unless you were really handy with welding, took a frame, and did the appropriate cutting and re-welding to make something that would more or less fit.
There have been many modified Mets which have had custom built frames put under them and huge V-8s installed.
As for a simple power hop-up, I am pirating a motor/trans from a 1965 MGB as it is a simple bolt in into my '59 Met. The rest of the MGB is up for sale if anyone wants it.
I also have a '61 Met and intend doing something unusual such as installing a front wheel drive combo or electric motor, haven't made up my mind just yet.
After rebuilding the brakes and overcoming the difficult task of getting all the air out as the bleed nipple is at the bottom of the front cylinders!!!! I find that it stops very well. One just has to remember that one has to actually use pedal pressure as there is no booster on these cars.
Main problem with using another engine is the steering running across the bottom of the firewall. One of the best things to do is to install a complete front crossmember such as one from Fatman Fabrications, which will give you modern disc brakes, rack & pinion steering and A-arm suspension, all in one package.
Btw, does anyone happen to have a spare front passenger side engine to cross member steel bracket they don't need? I have mislaid the one for my Met. Thanks.
Peter.
You're dealing with the need to increase stopping power, but how about the suspension? You might be able to dust off a rice rocket at the stop light, but it would be wise to yield to the fart can in the twisties.
I drive a VW rabbit stick shift currently and I love being able to zip around corners and get up to 80+ on the interstate. I would be fine without taking the metro on the interstate however I have a hard time staying content doing any speed under 45 so reading that this car is slow has really put a damper on things.... not to mention everything said about the brakes and suspension.
I really want one to drive to and from work ( about 25 miles ) five days a week - is that not possible to do in a Metro? Is there any affordable way to speed it up?
If you want better freeway speeds then find a diff from a late model Midget or Sprite as they had a 3.9 and some had a 3.7 gear instead of the Met's 4.22 or higher, depending upon the year of the car.
I ended up not using the MGB unit I mentioned previously. Instead, I installed a 153 ci 4 cylinder Chevy motor (came from a boat - Mercruiser) and married it to a TH 200-4R overdrive trans. The Met now climbs steep hills at over 70mph with ease. Of course it was the easiest way to go from the original 55hp to the Mercruiser' 140hp.
The next step is to add a Mustang II type front suspension and rack and pinion steering which will also give me front disc brakes too.
The MGB conversion with the MGB 4 speed along with the 3.9 diff does make a great up grade for a Met and is pretty much a bolt in too when compared to the mods I did to fit the Chevy in there. But that was not too difficult if you can do basic fabrication or have a buddy who can....
Mets are great for little back country roads--you know, just like in the English countryside--which is where they belong.
I think a daily commute is too hard on a Met--they are kinda fragile cars.
With the Met, people seem to think that just because it's small that it is fragile. Well I grew up with these old cars and they are pretty robust. We thrashed them all over the country lanes and freeways in the UK. Sure they are older now and deserve more respect, but they will survive modern day driving especially if one does a few upgrades such as the rear end gear change. The one mod that does make things better especially if one lives in hilly terrain, is the 4 speed from an MBG as the original 3 speed has too much seperation when one comes to downshifting for hills. The MGB did come with an overdrive option, but I have heard this Laycock unit is a bit unreliable so be aware of this if one decides to go this route and do some serious research of your own before committing to it.
Btw, the Met's running gear (lower front suspension, rear axle, etc.) closely resembles the Midget/Sprite but the motor/trans is MGB series. Some of the Midget parts are interchangeable such as the front disc brakes can be adapted fairlly easily. The engine is the same "B" series BMC unit used in many Austin, Morris, MGB, etc cars of that era, even including the 1800cc Marina motors. Automatics were not an option for the Met but apparently the Marina 3 speed auto will fit along with the Datsun B1800 trans. Datsun bought the blu-prints for the "B" series motor and apparently some of the Datsun motor parts are interchangeable but I don't know exactly which ones, do your own research if you need to go that route.
I guess it really depends on what a person's expectations are with a stock Metropolitan. The person who posted about daily commuting seemed to suggest that he wanted to do this with a stock Met and this seems optimistic without interventions of the type you mentioned.
Seeing as how over 92,000 came to America and over 85,000 lasted until now or until they were melted down the facts remain clear: ie: since they were marketed to...and driven by... women for the most part, the safety issue is a little moot... As far as being safe these cars are fine. As far as having enuff power... again... these cars are fine. 0 to 60 is actually about 21 or 22 seconds. And the size is downright generous compared to any MG or Triumph. Granted the back seat isnt all that big, but the ample room in the front, and the useable room once the passenger seat is folded down and the rear seat is folded foreward.. hey its plenty big for an average person to lay down and sleep.
All this talk of this car needing major upgrades is just silly. Leave it stock already! Just make sure the brakes are up to snuff... and be sure to replace the master cylinder at the very 1st sign of failing. A single piston master-cyl isn't the best idea int he world, but as long as the driver is aware of what a failing master-cyl feels like... and has it in her-his head to fix it right away if failure is felt, then this car is just fine.
Metro's don't need any upgrades, just keep them stock... keep them forever... and keep them fixed using stock parts. I personally will not let my teenage daughter drive mine...mainly for the lack of an airbag... but its not because its inherantly dangerous. Its because I have an "airbag rule" concerning my kids... and a "Metro rule" about letting ANYONE drive it. It's such a pansy unmanly car that it bolsters my manhood by driving it. Yet, as "girly" as it is... once underneath it, or fixng it... one quickly sees that it is anything but a pansy car Its as well built as any American car from the era, and the engine is easilly equal to any American made engine of the era. It's a real car... a car to be proud of. And it's looks are so distinctive... it is bound to be one of the cars that will still be around, in stock form... for another hundred years.
Leave it stock, have fun with it... and smile already. Smile as if you were at the dealer picking it up for the 1st time. Last point of advice: Learn how to adjust the points, twice a year you will need to do so... ANY and ALL times it feels funny it will almost ALWAYS just be needing to adjust the POINTS... learn this trick and never get "taken" by a shop. ...and... be sure to know how to look for master cyinder failure. They always give a couple weeks warning before complete failure...but... have them fixed the 1st day you feel them start to go. Do these two things: and everything will be fine. Points and brakes... that's all you need to know to keep this car fun to drive... and cheap to keep... for years and years.
As for the master cylinder, I think an upgrade would be a very good idea.