"The real penny pincher with any kind of intelligence and a calculator uses synthetic oil. I will save $300/year in gas and go to get my oil changed 4 less times/yr after switching to Mobil1 full synthetic. "
If we use 15k as a interval the numbers tell the story: oil filter @2.50 7 qts conventional @ 1.25= 11.25/15,000 or .00075 per mile lubricated.
oil filter @2.50, 7 qts synthetic @3.65=28.05/15,000=.00187 per mile lubricated.
If in fact conventional oil can do the job of synthetic: WHAT IS THERE NOT TO LIKE?
conventional can't do what synthetic can do. Plug 7.5 K or even 5 K more like it into that same formula in the conventional version. Then you also need to factor in the gas mileage factor that your calculation above doesn't include.
I have come out with this. 15k mobilone changes 4.29x5=21.45+9.99 k/n 0r mobilone filte+ one filter inbetween 9.99=41.43one year. any cheap SL 1.25x5=6.25+1.97walmart filter=8.22x3=24.66 three changes =15k So we Have 31.44 with the best and 24.66 with the cheapest. I used synthetic forabout 4years and could never let myself go more than 5k.I'm no math guy but you do not save money with synthetic.People say you save money on gas But synthetics have all most no friction modifyers and the base stock is not any slicker than anything else,especialy the new SL.Say synthetic flows at -65 and SL flows at -45. At 0 deg these oils flow at practily the same rate.and at operating temp they should both act like 30w or 40w so where dose the improved milage come in ?synthetics offer better protection at startup say under 32F above that most Qualty oils will provide the same protection.So you ask to prove this in test you say . The oil specs speak for them selfs.I like things to be the best but the best things don't save you money.Tony
According to the court ruling, some of the dinos, at least the Chevron anyway, ARE synthetic. Some have claimed you get you're money's worth from the syns by taking them to 15K change intervals. The problem with this is that some folks have already shown unfavorable oil analysis results with Mobil 1 at way less than 10K miles. The only way for the syns to be more economical is with extended drain intervals. If you can't do this without the oil showing poor analysis results, there really isn't any argument in favor of synthetics.
There are a fair amount of folks on this thread that think that because the courts have ruled hydro cracked petro products to be synthetic that it must be so!? You bring up a valid point, they still are not!
The reason you can't save money is because you don't let it go past 5K. As far as mileage, I only know the facts that I have experienced. I got 14 mpg before I changed and 15.5 after. I pay $1.40 for the premium gas that my manual calls for. Let that syn go to about 10-15K and you will see a savings. Then do an analysis to prove that it is ok at that drain interval.
that you do not exceed manufacturer's suggested oil change intervals, yet you do it. Have you continually had an oil analysis done like adc does? Ruking you leap where Mobil 1 suggests that you don't. BTW at Bob's site there is a great amount of interest in oil analysis reports. They would be very interested to have you publish yours. There is a great deal of information available over there. Not syn bashers or dino hypsters, I believe all interested should go there and browse, it is very informative, not based on just opinion as my posts and many other's here are. As Bob doesn't post here as often, if at all, as he used to, that site provides a good balance of data and interpretation, not the Umbrellas cause rain approach sometimes offered here. But don't take my word for it, see for yourself and comeback.
Maybe hydorcracks aren't real synthetic, but what's the difference between hydrocracked Chevron SL dino, and hydrocracked synthetics that cost $4 a bottle? Besides $2.75 a bottle, I mean. Also, has anyone posted an oil analysis with good results at 15K from any brand of synthetic? I haven't seen one.
If you are refering to a leap in faith, the answer is no. When I first started using Mobil One app 600k miles ago, I did do oil analysis, tread lines. And every 15k the valve covers came off for a dealer adjustment of valves. So not only did the dealer do the 15k synthetic oil change, but in fact looked at the inner workings on a time and mileage basis, and also would have done whatever engine warranty. While I do have engines that now go 60k before a valve check, again they go in their at time and mileage basis. And the engine warranty work would have been done by the same dealer anyway. The dealer in the 4 vehicles that I and they did the 15k oil change intervals are not only clean but according to their mechanics showed almost no appreciable wear. I had one TLC that had app 250k miles on it and absolutely NO sludge! Does that mean that conventional oil can't go 250k miles!! Absolutely NOT!
The operative question is: can it go with conventional oil with a 15k oil change interval with NO sludge and no appreciable wear!!???
Fast forward to the GM 4178 or GM spec which Mobil One oil meets or exceeds, i.e., Corvette Z06. FACTORY recommendation is up to a max of 15k oil change intervals and/or one year. So no, it is not a leap at all!
I'm really sort of neutral here because I can appreciate both sides. I do though think that looking at the oil spec sheets proves nothing as it really can't predict wear in everyday use. And as far as the SL being the "equal" so a full PAO in temperatures above 32F as was mentioned-I don't think so. I have seen reports(SAE 951026) in racing where people lost their cooling with many miles to go with synthetic oil and the engine held up at temperatures above 450 F. I'm willing to pay for that insurance.
Mobil has run many tests at 15K and 25K drains with good results. But can't recommend it due to vipers (lawyers). Amsoil of course says 25K/one year. People do it-apparently with OK results. Delvac 1 has tested theeir oil to 100K oil drain intervals in diesels. They specify 60K intervals.
In sumary-I just don't think you can make the leap of stating that SL oils are in the same class as PAO's . Does it make economic sense to use conventional SL's and will they offer adequate protection at normal change intervals??-sure. Some may be better than Mobil 1 at that interval bc they have higher levels of zinc and moly. Thats why I'm investigating Shaeffers.
Here is a link that gives a large # of oil analysis- I don't have the latest verson of -I believe Exel so I cant open it. Perhaps someone could download it and post some of the results- Say the Name of the oil, miles on the oil and Iron/lead content. I will do it next week when I visit my son who has the latest version.
Remember that TBN is a good indicator of whether the oil is bad. A a value of 2 or below indicates a bad oil. I wish they had tested TBN on the 22 k mile change. A value of 30 or higher iron is a problem. Comments indicate that the Honda (Iron=60) may not be a problem since it is on a new engine.
The normal's listed are for the type oil and engine that are listed in the analyses above that reference.
However, I do have a couple of questions, and maybe others can help me out here as well. First, I believe the manufacturer warranties the car, not the dealer. Now dealers have been known to eat repairs on vehicles operated outside the warranty guidelines, but about as often as we get a snowstorm in July here in NY. So, I would get in writing, a representation that what you are doing does put you outside those warranty parameters.(If you think Mobil will come up with the scratch, think again.) Secondly,and here is where I really need someone with experience in these matters, how often do you need to perform an oil analysis when you are using extended drain intervals? Would one done at 22k, still be valid at 60k?
I don't think anyone's said SL dinos are in the same class as PAO's. However, many of the oil companies have said that hydrocracks are in the same class as PAO's by putting the word "synthetic" on the bottle. Because Chevron's SL is a hydrocrack, doesn't that make it a synthetic?
First of all NO oil manufacturer, synthetic or conventional guarantees the engine (warranty) !!!
In the Corvette Z06, the warranty language is VERY clear 3yr/36k BY Chevrolet. The oil change interval is up to 15,000 miles or 1 year. In that case the Corvette specification is the 4178 GM spec and Mobil One is among those that meet it. By anti trust law, you can not specify say Mobil One without providing it, hence the GM 4178 spec. So as long as the spec is met, you are meeting the spirit and intent of the law.
In the case of the TLC's, the service manager and asst service manager gave the nod for the engine warranty's on the 15k oil interval! As an aside, he knew and I knew that we would NOT fulfill on the 3yr/36k warranty on almost any major system let alone because of the 15k synthetic interval !!
While I don't necessarily advocate this, you can do an oil analysis almost at any juncture. But if you want a systematic cycle once near the end each interval would for practical purposes be alright. Again, you are really establishing a baseline and monitoring the treadline to help predict future maintenance items, fault isolation, and preventative maintenance for fleet integrity or in our cases seeing we are getting good wear characteristics.
When I used to over see the process for in excess of 200 fighter jet engines oil analysis, it was part of the periodics, and if we we were having specific problems we would do oil analysis as needed or as directed.
I think you should probably use a synthetic oil in a Corvette, it is a performance automobile, That being said, with the cost of the vehicle and its value, I would never extend the oil drains in the manner you do. But that's just me. AS ADC said, it's chump change.
In the case of the Corvette, to meet warranty concerns I don't have much of a choice!
A while back, I asked if the Chevron SL met the General Motors 4178 specification. It would be way less costly to me if the Chevron SL did meet that specification. As cited in this forum, the app cost is 1-1.50 dollars (I have seen Chevron SL at a Costco 12 qts for 10.99) vs 4-5 dollars a qt for Mobil One synthetic.
It all boils down to how long you are willing to leave the oil in the engine. I don't know why people insist on claiming 'syn is cheaper to run' or 'conventional is cheaper to run.' There is NOT a clear-cut answer! There are several variables involved, and each of them affects the per-mile cost of lubricating with each type of oil. The factor with the most impact, IMO, is the change interval. Plus you must consider the other factors that are unique to each consumer-- e.g. I won't leave oil in an engine more than 6,000 miles, which obviously skews my cost analysis in favor of conventional oil. Another one: one of my vehicles consumes a quart every 2,000 miles. This gets quite expensive when you're running $4 a quart Mobil 1!
It does baffle me somewhat that the folks who claim the cost of oil is a drop in the bucket compared to a new engine are willing to leave the oil in for so long. If the more-expensive synthetic oil is 'cheap insurance' then why not add an extra measure of insurance by changing the oil slightly more often?
I guess I have been hit over the head with the 'change your oil every 3,000 miles' mantra in this country that I would never be comfortable leaving oil in an engine for 15,000 miles or more, no matter what the oil analysis showed.
So the hypnotic "change your oil every 3000 miles" advertising works eh?
Of course every car and driver etc has its baseline! That is really the reason for the oil analysis. It confirms or denys what you can intuitively see feel or know!! Or even shows and tells you things you didnt even want to know!! Frankly, I thought that was a given. As a practical matter whatever it is with conventional oil 3k,4k, 5k, etc. Synthetic oil ie Mobil One can safely be used up to 3x over conventional. So in my case if I used conventional oil I would use a 5k interval.
If one is not comfortable with it, as a Chevron stockholder why would I discourage you from buy more of this product and at more frequent intervals?
"It does baffle me somewhat that the folks who claim the cost of oil is a drop in the bucket compared to a new engine are willing to leave the oil in for so long. If the more-expensive synthetic oil is 'cheap insurance' then why not add an extra measure of insurance by changing the oil slightly more often?"
For me its the oil drain thing. With 6 cars I maintain and 4 of those are some distance away (400 miles) its a convenience thing and not a money thing. Besides after 6-10K miles there is virtually no oxidation with syn and the oil will still be capable of performing to an extra margin of safety over conventional oils. Its like Painting your house every year. Its not necessary. But I will give you-2k drain intervals would be better than 6-10K-just not a whole lot better.
Synthetics can be safely used for 3 times longer than conventionals? What if an analysis shows that Chevron is good for 7,500 miles? Does that mean Mobil 1 is good for 22,500 miles? Does it even count because Chevron's really a synthetic? Then shouldn't the Chevron last 3 times longer than the dinos? Is this confusing enough for you all?
ruking: I try hard to get that 3,000 mile marketing out of my head, but it's hard! Actually I'll probably go with a 3,500-4,000 mile change interval once I switch to the Chevron and Citgo hydrocracked SL oils. Right now with Mobil 1, I'm changing every 5-6k miles. I'm tired of dumping an extra 2 quarts into our Isuzu Trooper during that change interval, though!
The TLC's use between 1/4 to 1/2 qt (normally 1/4 qt) at the 14,000 mile mark with a 15k oil change interval. So it is six of one, half dozen of the other if I top up or just let it go till the oil change!
The GM product used app 1 qt per 5k miles. I am told this is EXTREMELY good for a high performance type engine.
#4074
With an SL rated synthetic, i.e., Mobil One I would not have a problem with going 22,500 miles with a conventional SL rated oil good to go to 7,500 (baseline).
Actually, the engines are alright with it. I am just here to deal with the aftermath!! (I foot the bills, and for engine damage due to synthetic vs conventional ie longer oil change intervals: NONE!!)
I am actually ok with it under the old SJ rating! While I understand that the SL rating is far stricter, ie the oil is better than the old SJ rating I am assuming that the conventional to synthetic relationships have not changed given a better baseline of the SL conventional oils.
Post #4066..."First of all NO oil manufacturer, synthetic or conventional guarantees the engine (warranty) !!!"
What about Quaker State?
Possibilities--
1. There's a loophole that get them out of repairs.
2. Any SL oil can allow a car to get 250K on the engine if you do 4000 mile changes.
3. 99% of the time, the rest of the car craps out before the engine does anyway.
Again, if specs. are any indication, QS's specs are inferior to Pennzoil and even slightly inferior to SuperTech. The warranty applies to all Quaker State oils, including dino.
From their web page:
" Either when you purchase a Quaker State® oil change or change your own oil with Quaker State®, Quaker State will give you a FREE limited warranty that will protect all your engine's lubrication-related parts, such as the pistons, timing chain, valve stems and cam shafts, for 10 years or 250,000 miles.
How to get coverage. To qualify for coverage all you have to do is get a Quaker State® oil change. Your engine must have less than 36,000 miles and have been manufactured within the last 48 months. It's that easy!
How to keep it. Just get a Quaker State® oil change at a retail service center every 4,000 miles, or 4 months, whichever comes sooner. This may not be the same as some vehicle manufacturers recommend, but neither is the length of our limited warranty. The oil filter and air cleaner elements must be replaced and the emission control system must be maintained in accordance with the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations. You have to take very good care of your engine if you want it to last for ten years. Or 250,000 miles. Our Limited Warranty is Transferable. The Quaker State® limited warranty offers something that could prove valuable if you sell your vehicle before it's gone 75,000 miles. The limited warranty can be transferred to the next owner.
And It Isn't Hard To Follow. Recent research found that at least 80 percent of those who enrolled found it easy to follow and met the requirements of this program.
How to Enroll. Simply fill out and submit our on-line application. The Quaker State® limited warranty is only available in the United States and Canada. For full details on this Limited Warranty Program, call 1-800-677-6457 and switch to Quaker State® oils and greases that take better care of your engine!
Quaker State Warranty Headquarters P.O. Box 5167 Buffalo, New York 14240-5167 1-800-677-6457 "
Why did Mobil (and the majority of other manufacturers as well) get their conventional oils SL certified before their synthetics? At first I thought it was product in the supply line, but that no longer seems the case.
what a pre -owned luxury car is to an every day beater, I have a great idea. What I'll do is put synthetic in my wife's 01 Explorer run it for about 6k, drain the oil and the filter , replacing it with new syn of course. Then use the pre owned synthetic in one of my Hondas that already have 100k plus miles. Has to be the best resolution because synthetic oil with 6k on it is better than any virgin dino oil I could purchase. Can anyone find a better way to reduce my lubrication costs?
The Catch is that you have to prove that it was the oil that caused the problem. Usually oil degradation like thinning or sludging is a result of something else going wrong. So if regular correct intervals are maintained, the problems found in the oil are really a symptom not a cause. For example, suppose there is a radiator leak that gets into the oil. It will turn brown and gum up the oil. However the oil was not the cause, but rather evidence that water from the engine was leaking into the oil.
That would be a good warranty if it was at 15k oil change intervals!
While I stand corrected, if they do not use the normal loopholes to get out of paying for those repairs,(biggerst one is can you prove that the oil caused the needed repair) perhaps all those new Toyota Sienna owners that experienced sludge problems could use a warranty like this? (Even Toyota is using any and all loopholes to try to get out of this one!!)
Not to mention the fact that Quaker State, if I read your quote correctly is giving a longer engine guarantee than the folks that have manufactured the engine!!??
and I'm 57 years old and had up to four cars in my family. Two of the three were Mitsubishi products. I had the infamous valve guide problems on a 3 liter Caravan. Since the transmission was also a goner (at 100K), I donated the car rather than doing a double repair. Had I really been fond of the car I could have put a junkyard engine and transmission in it.
The other was a 2 liter Plymouth Arrow that I cooked because of coolent leaking problems. Early 80's and I probably had about 100K on it.
The third was a Festiva that gave up the ghost at 110K. Put a junkyard engine with 60K in it and the engine was still going strong at 160K, no oil burning whatsoever. Synchros were beginning to go, and it needed a major brake job so I (again) donated it. The original engine had probably only gotten one oil change in the first 28K (at which point I bought it). Still wish I'd held onto that car.
Everything else, including two Fiats and two Renaults was fine in the engine department when I unloaded them, with the possible exception of a mid sixties Corvair that had every system malfunctioning.
A quick count: 23 cars and 4 motorcycles. Many driven into the ground. Something was usually wrong that caused me to unload them. Three out of 27 equals 11% of my vehicles that had engine failures. One of the three engines was replaced and another 50K put on the car. Another died at the same time a transmission went, so I would probably unloaded anyway. Only one car or 3% of my vehicles was a total engine failure and that was my fault for trying to nurse a coolant leak.
I suspect that my experiences are rather typical, and that Quaker State's odds in offering that warranty is pretty good.
Would synthetic protected the valve guides in my Caravan? I've always heard that the valve guides in 3 liter Mitsu engines crap out at about 100K anyway. Would Quaker State pay for new valve guides? Good question.
Sure, just pick any brand of full synthetic, fill both vehicles with it, and just leave it in there. Change only the filters every 10K or so, and top off. Doesn't get any cheaper than this. Let us know how it goes.
They are forcing you to go to a Quick Lube place or a dealer. Most opt for the Quick Lube. Certainly QS gets a piece of that action. In my 40 years of driving I can not recall any vehicle failing a drive part except for main seals and they will not pay for that- Oh wait I had a pinto go bad due to bad clearances in the big end bearing- They would claim a manufacturing defect here. And note its basically 10 years. How many folks keep a car 10 years. And how many put on more than 150K in that time. Sounds fairly safe to me. But it is something.
I also doubt that you would get 10% increase with syn. 3% is the best you can probably expect. Not saying it ain't so; but there may be a tendency to drive better to have it happen-sort of like a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Based upon the Product sheet for Chevron Supreme Oils (dated 10/24/2001), it does NOT list the GM spec 4178 you mention, but it does have GM 9986125 (5W-30) and GM 9986125 (10W-30). The Chevron Supreme 100% Synthetic also lists GM spec 9986137 (Corvette). As you are aware, the Mobil 1 product sheets list the GM spec 4178. I don't know the difference between the two.
through on this board. My point was one of logic, if cost and protection were the primary considerations and synthetic oil was so much superior to dino that it would last 3x as long or 22k, then one should have no problem choosing a synthetic pre owned oil with 6k on it to virgin dino oil. Any takers? Maybe there is a whole new market I've discovered.
Can someone point me in the direction of the 15k mobil one analyist reports? I've seen other reports Amsoil/redline/schaffers but have yet to see one for mobilone.I've seen mobilones at 6k or 5k that where real close to needing to be changed out.I'm not bashing ,just curious? I looked at those Amsoil reports and might switch they seemed to look good. And can someone fill me in on how a change to mobilone will increase my miliage (Maybe) from 14MPH to 15.5 MPH .What are the characteristics of the oil that would support these reports? I'm not sure if I was misunderstood but I don't think SL oils are the same as PAO based synthetics.Tony
I picked up on the sarcasm in your post #4082 and actually found the question you posed to be quite valid. I'm hoping some of the synthetic oil proponents on the board take a minute to respond to your post.
I think there's been enough evidence posted to show that syns aren't 3X better than dinos, especially with the new breed of SL dinos. One may have an argument that PAO's are better than hydrocracks, but how much better are they? I don't think that's been determined yet. Sorry about the sarcasm, it was just too hard to pass up.
For me, I feel better about having conventional oil with 4,000 or fewer miles in my engine than synthetic oil with 10,000 or more miles. Perhaps the synthetic 'performs' better insofar as lab analysis or other technical measures are concerned, but there's something about leaving oil in an engine for a long period of time that I just can't come to grips with. Changing every 3-4k miles with a well-respected SL conventional is a cheap, easy way for me to treat the engines in my vehicles well.
Thanks for the post. But I would like to see some analyist on the 10w-30 or the 5w-30 the oils we can get off the shelf at wallys.I'll keep looking.Even if I swith back to a full syn I'll only go 5k or so?anything after that like bluesdevils I'm chomping at the bit. Tony
"I think there's been enough evidence posted to show that syns aren't 3X better than dinos, especially with the new breed of SL dinos"
Correct me if I am wrong but we haven't seen any evidence at all of SL oil performance at any interval level-except for Shaeffers?
I've seen mobilones at 6k or 5k that where real close to needing to be changed out
I have seen a number of reports-what makes you say it was real real close to needing changing?? Most that I have seen had real good TBN's, and zinc levels were fine(including mine)
My better half only drives her car 4 miles to work in her 89 Jeep. The rest of the time, I am drive her around. That works out to about 3K a year for her car. I change the oil about every six months and it comes out looking pretty bad. A couple months ago I had to replace the valve cover gasket and clean the heavily sludged head. This was in part due to the PVC rubber gromit that had swelled shut. Synthetic wouldn't help this car. I got to believe this type of driving is more common than than you think. I drive about 25K a year and that is not work related. To get that 12K average, a lot of cars must be sitting around. I bought a Toyota Supra that was 13 months old from the date of manufacture. It had over 59K on it and I doubt that it had more than three oil changes. I drove it till 224K and the valve covers were clean as a whistle using only low cost oil and 6K oil changes.
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't ANY info to show that syns are 3x better than dinos. Notta" Did you forget about post #4063?
Anyway I'm not really here for one-upsmanship. I am locked in on syns. I am really trying to find the best. Right now I'm inclined to either do the Delvac 1, Shaeffer's Full syn with moly, or Mobil 1/Amsoil 10W with Shaeffer's moly #132. Really looking at my Sentra Oil analysis it will go 10K, but I think with some moly I can get further with less wear.
I know armtdm has done oil analysis for long periods of time with extended drain intervals. As I recall he has honed in on about 10K. Thats more support for the 3X time interval you are searching for. I would ask him to share some of that information. Perhaps someone can share some oil analysis on any SL oils? for even 3K
Comments
Thanks!
If we use 15k as a interval the numbers tell the story: oil filter @2.50 7 qts conventional @ 1.25= 11.25/15,000 or .00075 per mile lubricated.
oil filter @2.50, 7 qts synthetic @3.65=28.05/15,000=.00187 per mile lubricated.
If in fact conventional oil can do the job of synthetic: WHAT IS THERE NOT TO LIKE?
There are a fair amount of folks on this thread that think that because the courts have ruled hydro cracked petro products to be synthetic that it must be so!? You bring up a valid point, they still are not!
If you are refering to a leap in faith, the answer is no. When I first started using Mobil One app 600k miles ago, I did do oil analysis, tread lines. And every 15k the valve covers came off for a dealer adjustment of valves. So not only did the dealer do the 15k synthetic oil change, but in fact looked at the inner workings on a time and mileage basis, and also would have done whatever engine warranty. While I do have engines that now go 60k before a valve check, again they go in their at time and mileage basis. And the engine warranty work would have been done by the same dealer anyway. The dealer in the 4 vehicles that I and they did the 15k oil change intervals are not only clean but according to their mechanics showed almost no appreciable wear. I had one TLC that had app 250k miles on it and absolutely NO sludge! Does that mean that conventional oil can't go 250k miles!! Absolutely NOT!
The operative question is: can it go with conventional oil with a 15k oil change interval with NO sludge and no appreciable wear!!???
Fast forward to the GM 4178 or GM spec which Mobil One oil meets or exceeds, i.e., Corvette Z06. FACTORY recommendation is up to a max of 15k oil change intervals and/or one year. So no, it is not a leap at all!
Mobil has run many tests at 15K and 25K drains with good results. But can't recommend it due to vipers (lawyers). Amsoil of course says 25K/one year. People do it-apparently with OK results. Delvac 1 has tested theeir oil to 100K oil drain intervals in diesels. They specify 60K intervals.
In sumary-I just don't think you can make the leap of stating that SL oils are in the same class as PAO's . Does it make economic sense to use conventional SL's and will they offer adequate protection at normal change intervals??-sure. Some may be better than Mobil 1 at that interval bc they have higher levels of zinc and moly. Thats why I'm investigating Shaeffers.
Here is a link that gives a large # of oil analysis- I don't have the latest verson of -I believe Exel so I cant open it. Perhaps someone could download it and post some of the results- Say the Name of the oil, miles on the oil and Iron/lead content. I will do it next week when I visit my son who has the latest version.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?s&threadid=100060
Ther document is in compressed version at bottom of page.
7,981, Amsoil, 10W/30, 18, 6, 5, 8, 3, 10.1
Normal, Synthetic, 5W/30, 23, 8, 19, 20, 34, N/A
7,232, Redline, 10W/30, 18, 11, 19, 14, 75, 4.5
Normal Synthetic, 10W/30, 28, 8, 5, 17 28, N/A
12,000, Amsoil, 5W/30, 21, 42, 17, 8, 5, N/A
22,120, Amsoil, 5W/30, 40, 54, 25, 18, 7, N/A
Normal Synthetic, 5W/30, 26, 48, 10, 20, 6, N/A
3,270, Honda Factory, 5W/20, 60, 139, 11, 118, 9, 5.5
normal Synthetic, 5W/30, 23, 41, 9, 18, 5, N/A
5,600, Amsoil, 15W/40, 17, 10, 68, 7, 59, 7
11,155, Amsoil, 15W/40 14, 14, 4, 8, 26, 7.6
7,900, Amsoil, 15W/40 25, 16, 9, 7, 7 11.6
15,100, Amsoil, 15W/40, 15, 24, 18, 9, 9, 8.3
5,000, Amsoil, 20W/50, 14, 13, 10, 8, 6, 10
11,440, Amsoil, 20W/50, 12, 8, 12, 7, 6, 9.8
5,500, Amsoil, 10W/40, 8, 5, 7, 6, 3, 10.9
12,600, Amsoil, 10W/40, 13, 7, 14, 7, 5, 10.7
6,000, BMW Synthetic, 5W/30, 9, 5, 2, 8, 3, 8.8
Remember that TBN is a good indicator of whether the oil is bad. A a value of 2 or below indicates a bad oil. I wish they had tested TBN on the 22 k mile change. A value of 30 or higher iron is a problem. Comments indicate that the Honda (Iron=60) may not be a problem since it is on a new engine.
The normal's listed are for the type oil and engine that are listed in the analyses above that reference.
First of all NO oil manufacturer, synthetic or conventional guarantees the engine (warranty) !!!
In the Corvette Z06, the warranty language is VERY clear 3yr/36k BY Chevrolet. The oil change interval is up to 15,000 miles or 1 year. In that case the Corvette specification is the 4178 GM spec and Mobil One is among those that meet it. By anti trust law, you can not specify say Mobil One without providing it, hence the GM 4178 spec. So as long as the spec is met, you are meeting the spirit and intent of the law.
In the case of the TLC's, the service manager and asst service manager gave the nod for the engine warranty's on the 15k oil interval! As an aside, he knew and I knew that we would NOT fulfill on the 3yr/36k warranty on almost any major system let alone because of the 15k synthetic interval !!
While I don't necessarily advocate this, you can do an oil analysis almost at any juncture. But if you want a systematic cycle once near the end each interval would for practical purposes be alright. Again, you are really establishing a baseline and monitoring the treadline to help predict future maintenance items, fault isolation, and preventative maintenance for fleet integrity or in our cases seeing we are getting good wear characteristics.
When I used to over see the process for in excess of 200 fighter jet engines oil analysis, it was part of the periodics, and if we we were having specific problems we would do oil analysis as needed or as directed.
>:^[
In the case of the Corvette, to meet warranty concerns I don't have much of a choice!
A while back, I asked if the Chevron SL met the General Motors 4178 specification. It would be way less costly to me if the Chevron SL did meet that specification. As cited in this forum, the app cost is 1-1.50 dollars (I have seen Chevron SL at a Costco 12 qts for 10.99) vs 4-5 dollars a qt for Mobil One synthetic.
It does baffle me somewhat that the folks who claim the cost of oil is a drop in the bucket compared to a new engine are willing to leave the oil in for so long. If the more-expensive synthetic oil is 'cheap insurance' then why not add an extra measure of insurance by changing the oil slightly more often?
I guess I have been hit over the head with the 'change your oil every 3,000 miles' mantra in this country that I would never be comfortable leaving oil in an engine for 15,000 miles or more, no matter what the oil analysis showed.
So the hypnotic "change your oil every 3000 miles" advertising works eh?
Of course every car and driver etc has its baseline! That is really the reason for the oil analysis. It confirms or denys what you can intuitively see feel or know!! Or even shows and tells you things you didnt even want to know!! Frankly, I thought that was a given. As a practical matter whatever it is with conventional oil 3k,4k, 5k, etc. Synthetic oil ie Mobil One can safely be used up to 3x over conventional. So in my case if I used conventional oil I would use a 5k interval.
If one is not comfortable with it, as a Chevron stockholder why would I discourage you from buy more of this product and at more frequent intervals?
For me its the oil drain thing. With 6 cars I maintain and 4 of those are some distance away (400 miles) its a convenience thing and not a money thing. Besides after 6-10K miles there is virtually no oxidation with syn and the oil will still be capable of performing to an extra margin of safety over conventional oils. Its like Painting your house every year. Its not necessary. But I will give you-2k drain intervals would be better than 6-10K-just not a whole lot better.
ruking: I try hard to get that 3,000 mile marketing out of my head, but it's hard! Actually I'll probably go with a 3,500-4,000 mile change interval once I switch to the Chevron and Citgo hydrocracked SL oils. Right now with Mobil 1, I'm changing every 5-6k miles. I'm tired of dumping an extra 2 quarts into our Isuzu Trooper during that change interval, though!
I can understand!
The TLC's use between 1/4 to 1/2 qt (normally 1/4 qt) at the 14,000 mile mark with a 15k oil change interval. So it is six of one, half dozen of the other if I top up or just let it go till the oil change!
The GM product used app 1 qt per 5k miles. I am told this is EXTREMELY good for a high performance type engine.
#4074
With an SL rated synthetic, i.e., Mobil One I would not have a problem with going 22,500 miles with a conventional SL rated oil good to go to 7,500 (baseline).
Actually, the engines are alright with it. I am just here to deal with the aftermath!! (I foot the bills, and for engine damage due to synthetic vs conventional ie longer oil change intervals: NONE!!)
I am actually ok with it under the old SJ rating! While I understand that the SL rating is far stricter, ie the oil is better than the old SJ rating I am assuming that the conventional to synthetic relationships have not changed given a better baseline of the SL conventional oils.
What about Quaker State?
Possibilities--
1. There's a loophole that get them out of repairs.
2. Any SL oil can allow a car to get 250K on the engine if you do 4000 mile changes.
3. 99% of the time, the rest of the car craps out before the engine does anyway.
Again, if specs. are any indication, QS's specs are inferior to Pennzoil and even slightly inferior to SuperTech. The warranty applies to all Quaker State oils, including dino.
From their web page:
" Either when you purchase a Quaker State® oil change or change your own oil with Quaker State®, Quaker State will give you a FREE limited warranty that will protect all your engine's lubrication-related parts, such as the pistons, timing chain, valve stems and cam shafts, for 10 years or 250,000 miles.
How to get coverage.
To qualify for coverage all you have to do is get a Quaker State® oil change. Your engine must have less than 36,000 miles and have been manufactured within the last 48 months. It's that easy!
How to keep it.
Just get a Quaker State® oil change at a retail service center every 4,000 miles, or 4 months, whichever comes sooner. This may not be the same as some vehicle manufacturers recommend, but neither is the length of our limited warranty. The oil filter and air cleaner elements must be replaced and the emission control system must be maintained in accordance with the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations. You have to take very good care of your engine if you want it to last for ten years. Or 250,000 miles. Our Limited Warranty is Transferable. The Quaker State® limited warranty offers something that could prove valuable if you sell your vehicle before it's gone 75,000 miles. The limited warranty can be transferred to the next owner.
And It Isn't Hard To Follow.
Recent research found that at least 80 percent of those who enrolled found it easy to follow and met the requirements of this program.
How to Enroll.
Simply fill out and submit our on-line application. The Quaker State® limited warranty is only available in the United States and Canada. For full details on this Limited Warranty Program, call 1-800-677-6457 and switch to Quaker State® oils and greases that take better care of your engine!
Quaker State Warranty Headquarters
P.O. Box 5167
Buffalo, New York 14240-5167
1-800-677-6457 "
In otherwords it's a very easy guarantee to make.
That would be a good warranty if it was at 15k oil change intervals!
While I stand corrected, if they do not use the normal loopholes to get out of paying for those repairs,(biggerst one is can you prove that the oil caused the needed repair) perhaps all those new Toyota Sienna owners that experienced sludge problems could use a warranty like this? (Even Toyota is using any and all loopholes to try to get out of this one!!)
Not to mention the fact that Quaker State, if I read your quote correctly is giving a longer engine guarantee than the folks that have manufactured the engine!!??
The other was a 2 liter Plymouth Arrow that I cooked because of coolent leaking problems. Early 80's and I probably had about 100K on it.
The third was a Festiva that gave up the ghost at 110K. Put a junkyard engine with 60K in it and the engine was still going strong at 160K, no oil burning whatsoever. Synchros were beginning to go, and it needed a major brake job so I (again) donated it. The original engine had probably only gotten one oil change in the first 28K (at which point I bought it). Still wish I'd held onto that car.
Everything else, including two Fiats and two Renaults was fine in the engine department when I unloaded them, with the possible exception of a mid sixties Corvair that had every system malfunctioning.
A quick count: 23 cars and 4 motorcycles. Many driven into the ground. Something was usually wrong that caused me to unload them. Three out of 27 equals 11% of my vehicles that had engine failures. One of the three engines was replaced and another 50K put on the car. Another died at the same time a transmission went, so I would probably unloaded anyway. Only one car or 3% of my vehicles was a total engine failure and that was my fault for trying to nurse a coolant leak.
I suspect that my experiences are rather typical, and that Quaker State's odds in offering that warranty is pretty good.
Would synthetic protected the valve guides in my Caravan? I've always heard that the valve guides in 3 liter Mitsu engines crap out at about 100K anyway. Would Quaker State pay for new valve guides? Good question.
I also doubt that you would get 10% increase with syn. 3% is the best you can probably expect. Not saying it ain't so; but there may be a tendency to drive better to have it happen-sort of like a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Correct me if I am wrong but we haven't seen any evidence at all of SL oil performance at any interval level-except for Shaeffers?
I've seen mobilones at 6k or 5k that where real close to needing to be changed out
I have seen a number of reports-what makes you say it was real real close to needing changing?? Most that I have seen had real good TBN's, and zinc levels were fine(including mine)
Anyway I'm not really here for one-upsmanship. I am locked in on syns. I am really trying to find the best. Right now I'm inclined to either do the Delvac 1, Shaeffer's Full syn with moly, or Mobil 1/Amsoil 10W with Shaeffer's moly #132. Really looking at my Sentra Oil analysis it will go 10K, but I think with some moly I can get further with less wear.
I know armtdm has done oil analysis for long periods of time with extended drain intervals. As I recall he has honed in on about 10K. Thats more support for the 3X time interval you are searching for. I would ask him to share some of that information. Perhaps someone can share some oil analysis on any SL oils? for even 3K