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Subaru Crew - Future Models

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  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Leif, don't kid yourself.

    If I knew more about cars, it would probably come down to more sophisticated and technical thinking. But as it stands in will mainly be in the feel of the test drive, seller/dealer negotiation and what my wife and I (o.k. - her) decides is best.

    There is nothing wrong or unusual at all with your approach. I initially form opinions on cars based on technical specs but after test drives my own impressions make the decision. Sometimes my impressions don't agree with what the technical data would suggest, and in these cases I either trust myself or go for more test drives.

    The only type of buying I disagree with is emotional purchasing. Buying a car simply because it's new and you "love" it is a bad idea. It's also an easy way to find yourself paying too much. Evaluate them critically, don't let novelty or appearance convince you to purchase. But in the end it's an individual's choice and their money so they can buy for frivolous reasons if they want.

    -Colin
  • lergeson1lergeson1 Member Posts: 15
    I agree, however my point is that for some people, myself sometimes included, the technical issues may get too technical and whether we like it or not, emotions will play a role. Just like the way the "VDC" discussion and "is it worth it" becomes confusing to people. I also believe that if emotions play a role and you end up buying a car, it doesn't necessarily equate to frivolousness.

    I am analytical minded but I still don't know cars. I can and do study consumer reports and what edmunds has to say as far as comparisons go, so when I do get to the bargaining table and decision time, I know what the pluses and minuses are and can walk away if the car doesn't live up to my expectations.

    I live in S. California and have a family, therefore, I cannot afford to be frivolous :) Mortgage poor, maybe.

    Thanks for your feedback.
    -Leif
  • guttermouthguttermouth Member Posts: 10
    I just read a quick review of the Australian version of the Outback with the H6. In the article it says that there is talk of GM plans to revive a sporty, SVX-style flat six-engined Subaru. Has anyone else heard or read about this before? Maybe it could stand a chance against the Acura CL and other Luxury/Sport Coupes.
  • yellowbikedonyellowbikedon Member Posts: 228
    As previously reported on this board, the current issue of Automobile Magazine also carried the same gossip. I think the note was on page 22.

    Don
  • nematodenematode Member Posts: 448
    ........and I was not turned to stone. I know this is a Subaru board but I felt the need to bash the Azetk here a little while back so I went and and actually looked at one today and drove it. I dont know anyone who owns one so I had to go to a dealer. I still have not seen any on the road either.
    The bad:
    Its even more ugly up close. I'm not kidding...there is a good reason they try and not show that back end in commercials and mags. Even in the show room they had it covered with a tent thingy which was acutally pretty cool.

    BUT I will eat some of my words.....Its actually a good idea. Its just poorly carried out.
    1) It has lots of room.
    2) Seats (front) and ergo were both very good except the Buck Rodgers meets Mad Max touches. Check out the vents if you get a chance.
    3) Its not really that bad from the inside. Think of a word that means the opposite of classy and your in the right ball-park.
    4) Drives OK but really floaty and leans in turns.
    The one I drove (Aztek GT) was on the lot for $28,500. They also had one there for $23,000. Thats the exact same range as the Subaru OB (2000 model year)!!!! Perhaps I made a mistake with my OB Ltd......OR PERHAPS NOT.
    They want to sell 25,000 this year. I will up my estimate from the 7 (seven total) to 10,000 units. They will start selling if offered with $3500 in incentives.
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    about making a mistake w/your OB Ltd. I wouldn't trade mine for just about anything, certainly not for the Kenner Toy reject styled Aztek, not to mention it's gimmicky plastic GMized interior, outdated motor, etc... Ok, I'm better now! Seriously, I tend to agree w/you that the Aztek wasn't a bad idea, it's just something got lost in the translation when they actually styled this thang (misspelled on purpose...).

    Stephen
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    LOL! Kenner Toy reject! :-0 How 'bout Tonka toy too...I wonder if any of the car model companies (i.e. Matchbox, Maisto, Bburago) will be making a scale model of the Aztek...probably not? ;-)
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    Aling: I was trying to come up w/some adjective that hadn't been used yet...I had a rough time of it! :-). I was thinking that it would be easy to make a scale model of the Aztek...anyway you got the dimensions would probably work!

    Stephen
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    Aling: I wanted to tell you how informative your posts were about the Aztek's safety (or lack thereof) on the Aztek site. Unfortunately, logic and common sense are not present (let along compatible) much on the Aztek site so it was lost on a lot of people. I have fun popping in once and awhile and stirring the pot! I tried the informative approach but was told I must be in a bad mood...(I wasn't until they told I was) :-)

    Stephen
  • mr_quagmr_quag Member Posts: 28
    I still think the aztek looks wierd, not just the back. If the Outback costs the same as the aztek, I would get the OB over th aztek for reasons like:

    - OB looks way better (Couldn't belive that it was actually a real world car when I saw it drive off at the end of Survivor)
    - OB has Subaru's AWD
    - OB is made by Subaru

    The only thing that I can see is better in the Aztek is the engine, but it's different if you compare it to the 2001 VDC.

    Maybe actually driving it is the difference.

    Jeff
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    Without turning this topic into another Aztek forum, I just wanted to say that I've always enjoyed how you (and kate5000) manage to throw a bucket of cold water on the "party" when they start spewing out silly things.

    For the life of me, I can't imagine how any of them could say that the handling was excellent. I mean, come on, it's basically a minivan! This means that handling will be okay, competent, and perhaps even good (to a certain extent), but by no means excellent or fun; well, perhaps as fun as a minivan can be. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the FWD Aztek use the minivan's solid rear axle? At least the AWD version has an IRS.

    Looks aside, all of the gizmos and gadgets are not enough to win me over. What's the use when the basic driving elements of the vehicle are not on par with many other competing vehicles. Ah well...enough of this ranting. :-)

    Thanks for your time!
    Drew
    P.S. I've seen zero Azteks around here, even though I live only about 7 minutes from a very large GM dealership. Then again, there is a VW dealership, a Toyota dealership, a Mazda dealership, a Chrysler/Jeep dealership, and a Honda dealership all within just 10 minutes from my place too :-)
  • nematodenematode Member Posts: 448
    Think about this....
    I predict 2k OB with PII engine and limited slip will have good/excellent resale value. Not that it really matters to us because, like MOST cars that we have owned before, we are gonna drive it until it dies.
    Now think about the Aztek. My prediction is the the plug will be pulled for a small flusing sound in 3 years or less barring a MAJOR, MAJOR, MAJOR redesign. So whats that gonna do for resale? Perhaps it will become a classic and worth millions in 20 years.

    I have been looking but I have not seen a single Aztek on the road yet. I wonder what the sales number look like?

    My facination with the Aztek stems from what I belive to be Pontiacs version on an OB. The major reason that people buy the OB are as follows according to my wife:
    1) It looks cool. In particular, my wife seems to think it was designed to appeal more to women. Consistent with this, I really dont like the looks of the OB (cladding, two tone, big fog lamps bug me). I prefere the monochrome GT look.
    2) Very reliable. Appeals to everyone.
    3) Subaru AWD is a house hold name by now.
    4) Crash tests have been good. Everyone.
    5) Not everyone else has one. This was true for our 2k OB Ltd. for about 2 months. This did play a small role in my wifes decision. Random people would ask us about it. After the sat in it they could not believe it was a Subaru (leather, wood, CD-changer, so on).

    This is where my facination with the Aztek design begins.....
    So in this case if you buy an Aztek you will get something that looks VERY unique (I'm being kind). But where else does this begin to compete with the OB? It does have more space but come one!!! Were they planning on finding a new niche? Were they smokin' doobies????
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Questions for Edmunds:

    My understanding of "Hidden Responses" is that they are intended for subjects that are not necessarily part of the normal discussion at hand; meaning, if you're not interested you don't have to read them.

    Okay, if that's the case, then why am I "more" inclined to read these "Hidden Responses" than not? Is it the "I-need-to-look-at-a-car-wreck-instinct" coming to surface?

    While "Hidden Responses" sound like a good idea at first, I'm willing to bet just about everybody on these boards read them. So, what's the point?

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    You're right, people are under no obligation to click the hidden text -- but they will.

    Bob
  • lwhittylwhitty Member Posts: 12
    This is only slightly off topic. Saw the Aztec heavily advertised on the Survivor show. Looks like someone beat it with an ugly stick! The next Survivor series will take place in the Aussie Outback, so wouldn't it be cool if Aztec is still sponsoring the show? "Survivor in the Australian OUTBACK, sponsored by Aztec"?

    Better yet, would love to see Subaru sponsor the show.

    -Lee
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    FACT:
    As we all know, Subaru has announced that there
    will be new ST-X pickup in MY 2003.

    RUMOR:
    They have not announced that there will be a new
    Forester in MY 2003, but it's pretty well known
    that there will be one.

    FACT:
    In the past Subaru, because they were small and
    relatively poor, had to have long model runs, as
    compared to other car brands. Most Japanese car
    models are in production from 4 - 5 years. Subaru's model runs have often run well beyond 5 years.

    RUMOR:
    If there is a new Forester for MY 2003, as
    predicted, that signals a change in Subaru's model
    run life cycle. The current Forester was introduced as a 1998 model. If a completely new model arrives in MY 2003, that will be 5 years for this particular model. Could this be the start of
    something new in model life cycles for Subaru? Will 5-year model life cycles become the norm at
    Subaru?

    MY 2004 will be the 5th year for the current Legacy/Outback. Could we see a new Legacy/Outback in MY 2005, which, incidentally, is also about when the new Subaru/GM larger SUVs will debut? Will this new SUV be built on the current Outback platform, or the next Outback platform? My guess it will be the next, if only because the current one will be considered "old" by 2005.

    FACT:
    The ST-X concept pick up is based upon the current
    Outback. It was built to see if the public would
    consider a car-based pickup, and to test-market
    some styling concepts. Apparently Subaru feels
    there is a market for such a vehicle.

    RUMOR:
    If there is going to be a new Forester in MY 2003,
    wouldn't make more sense to build the new "production" ST-X off the new Forester platform,
    rather than the Outback platform?

    As we all know the Impreza is built off a
    "shortened" Legacy platform. The Forester is built
    off a "lengthened" Impreza platform. Why couldn't
    the ST-X be built off an extra-long Forester
    platform, using the front end styling from the next Forester, rather than the Outback?

    Actually, what I'm really talking about is putting
    the Forester front end on a lengthened Outback
    platform to create the ST-X.

    From a marketing standpoint it makes sense. That
    way the Forester and ST-X would grouped together,
    much like a Chevy Tahoe/Suburban and Silverado
    (tougher truck image), and the Outback would remain the "premium car" (not truck) in the public's eye. It's all marketing and product image positioning.

    Bob
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    FACT: Bob reads too many automotive magazines and keeps too many facts in his head for us to verify.

    RUMOR: Bob's wife is a saint. This was supposed to be a honeydew day, but Bob is enslaved to his computer.

    FACT: We appreciate Bob's input.

    RUMOR: Bob's gonna give me a whoopin at the next meet.

    Ok, someone please post something intelligent about Bob's thesis. I lack the gray matter necessary for a retort.

    Getting back on track: Bob, wasn't the ST-X concept built on an Outback platform? I realize that might have been for simplicity of building a one-off, but it adds credibility to your idea.

    ..Mike

    PS - In case anyone missed the subject, I'm just gently tugging on Bob's leg.

    ..Mike

  • greyfalcongreyfalcon Member Posts: 8
    Subaru of America wrote me back.

    "Thank you for visiting the Subaru Web site and for your interest in our Impreza models. We will be directing our future performance strategy toward the Impreza. We plan to make the next-generation Impreza our performance leader. It will also feature a turbocharged model. Details about this model are not being made public at this time. The next-generation Impreza is scheduled to be on sale sometime in 2001 calendar year as a 2002 model. It's also too early to say exactly when."
  • aussierooaussieroo Member Posts: 78
    around here is not a concept. it was invented in oz years ago. they are called utes (utilities). GM and Ford out here have a V8 gutbusters from their special products divisions. the only problem with them is that you need a bag(s) of sand in the back to make them go round corners.
    FYI J.d MacDonald's character Travis McGee drove one called Agnes it was a cutdown Rolls!!
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Mike- ROTFLOL!!!

    Frank P.
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Another odd thing I noticed is that the Forester’s engine seems oddly quiet — too quiet ..

    Gotta love that testimonial. Oddly, it's followed by:

    .. — while the vehicle has a bit too much road noise at highway speeds. It seems like we’re nit-picking a pretty good thing — and we are ..

    And then there's:

    Unfortunately, it comes bundled with those weird gold-accent wheels, ..

    Thanks for the link, Drew.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    It's just another example of the subjective review. I personally love the wheels of my S+, the gold accents are so subtle I did not know they are "gold" until I read about the model. It's not at all like that horrible yellow gold on Limited JGC wheels in the past. I also don't see the Forester as having too much "plastic" at all. Escape or (God forbid) the Aztek, even XTerra have much more plastic on them.

    "Seating too low, to feel secure"? I actually feel more secure at that height as opposed to higher seating in CR-V or XTerra. No "tippy" feeling yet a better view of the road...

    It sounded to me that reviewers were VERY partial to Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute. They called it "real SUV" which is not.

    Ahh, who cares... did I mention how much I like my new Forester?
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Talk about damning with faint praise...."More gripes about the Forester, which we really did like".

    I do agree with them about the 3 rear headrests blocking your vision. That's why the first thing I did when I got my Forester was to remove the middle headrest and toss it in the garage.

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Way to go Kate!

    Subaru should not be afraid of comparisons to the Passat 4Motion. I drove the V6 FWD Passat at Edmunds Live, and that engine is simply a DAWG. Why bother with high tech and 30 valves that require premium fuel if the output stinks? The VR6 is a better powerplant.

    And that was FWD, imagine AWD. I've seen a wagon tested at mid 9 second to 60, while Subaru's estimate for the H6 is a full second quicker, and they're usually conservative.

    The LL Bean is a closer match in features, and will be quicker, cheaper, and more reliable. The Passat can't tow anything and the roof rack is flimsy so it also offers only half the utility of the Soob. The leather seats are also rock hard, and the interior is cold.

    I like the Passat in other ways, don't get me wrong, but I actually preferred the 1.8T with cloth seats!

    Passat Plus and the future upmarket sedans are targeting Mercedes, in reponse to Mercedes going after the Golf with their A-Class. VW is feeling a bit too cocky, if you ask me.

    Bob: I like the Forester with the rear multi-link suspension idea. That would be great.

    Drew: nice rear dust deflector. That may be my next toy!

    No flares on the Impreza wagons? Why not? They're calling them sport wagons and giving them turbos, so why not the look to go with it?

    Mike - I'll step up and play Devil's Advocate with Bob. The Forester was out in Japan earlier, so the life cycle isn't as short as it seems. The ST-X will remain Outback-based. The new Outack won't arrive until 2005 or 2006, I'd guess.

    On the WRX - yes it'll cost more than the base Prelude, Integra, Celica, and GTI, but it'll offer more performance (none of those break 200hp).

    Today, it's the cheapest and least powerful, but the others sell more! The GTI GLX and Prelude SH are already priced in the mid 20's.

    One more thing - I do not think GM will use the H6. I read that they were looking at a transverse mounted V6 in a Subaru platform, though.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yes, the ST-X concept was built on the Outback platform. I think that was more a matter of convenience, costs and of time constraints. In was conceived and put together very quickly, thus it became - in many ways a parts-bin-special. And... as Seinfeld would say: " But, there's nothing wrong with that."

    Again, the ST-X was put to test public reaction, and building the concept vehicle (quickly & cheaply) off the Outback platform made the most sense. That's not to say the production vehicle will necessarily be built off that platform.

    In reality though, the Impreza, Forester and Legacy/Outbacks are so similar, it probably doesn't matter which one they "say" it will be built of off. My guess is that it will share a large number of components from both the Forester and Outback.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I know that doesn't prove it, I'm just stating that IMHO the ST-X will remain on a Legacy chassis. If I'm wrong, I'll buy you a beer!

    Someone joked with me that Subaru only makes one car. The Impreza is a shortened Legacy, and the Forester is a lengthened Impreza.

    A bit of a stretch, but I was amused nonetheless.

    -juice
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    Actually I thought so too.... I mean, they do share some stuff together too no?
  • mfuggamfugga Member Posts: 2
    God forbid that Subaru ever uses a GM engine. Not only would that cause some of the originality of Subaru to be lost, but would contradict Subaru's past propaganda about how the horizontal engines work so well with the all wheel drive yada yada yada.

    I fear the day we see a beautiful design like the Legacy GT whore'd out to look like some sort of Pontiac....Subaru doesn't need all the gimmicks and hoopla that GM cars usually do to sell(Aztec, Bonneville). They have something that GM doesn't....(ready for this) quality of design!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    They've had their hand in the Isuzu pie for a few years. The only model they pimped was the Hombre... So I think subaru is pretty safe.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Anybody remember the Ford Rancharo, or Chevy El Camino, from the late '50s - early '70s?

    I know small car-based pickups are still very common on virtually every continent except North America. These, however, are 2-doors; and marketed as commercial vehicles.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    ramon: they're more similar than I thought at first! The strut tower brace fits, and Ken says the rear anti-roll bar does too. Same engine, so what else is there?

    Brazil has a bunch of those car-based pickups. They had one based on the Chevette, the Fiat Uno, the Escort, you name it.

    -juice
  • greyfalcongreyfalcon Member Posts: 8
    not to mention the infamous "Combi" - a chopped VW bus that dominated the pickup truck scene in Brazil for years.
  • wmiller4wmiller4 Member Posts: 97
    I noticed in the 2001 Outback catalog the Rear Reading Lamps are not listed as an option. Does any one know if SOA has decided to discontinue the Rear Reading Lamps? I heard there were some supply trouble this year. Did anyone get them and were they worth it. Were they easy to install?
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    some folks are calling the ST-X the "Out-Brat"

    It made me laugh. for a moment
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I like that name, it's clever and could benefit Subaru since retro seems to be in style (witness the New Beetle, PT Cruiser, and Audi TT).

    -juice
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    an insiders joke to work for the general public. All those Retro's are for the mainstream manufacturers that made a zillion cars, not the spunky up and coming guys!

    Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Most are, but the Tourist Trophy (TT) was unknown, and it's been popular.

    -juice
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    YOu mean that squashed bug u call TT? Gimme the new WRX over it anyday!!!
    As long as Subaru keeps the pricing fair. I will still eye them. My car may not have the refinement of a similarly priced VW. But I'd be damn if I see the dealership for fixings more than it sees my garage!
    So far (touch wood), my OBS has taken me thru some wacko situations and it's not showing any signs of lethargy. Heck it's even asking for more. As some of you may hvae known, I mod this car since day 1. So as long as the quality of design is still up there, I am game.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Squashed bug, LOL.

    I like the TT a lot, though. It's about style, really. I sat in one, and then a Honda S2000 back-to-back, and frankly Honda should be ashamed.

    Haven't driven one, tho. Reviews weren't great. Call it a poseur, I guess.

    The WRX will be ugly but have giant-killer performance. Now that's a sleeper.

    Honestly, I just can't wait to read reviews about a "mere" Subaru crushing pricier competitors.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I just found out Ford will use the problematic CD4E tranny in their V6 Escape/Tribute twins.

    My wife has a 626, so I've been lurking there for a while, and the consensus is that the 4 cylinder automatic is the only unreliable 626 model. The 5 speeds are Mazda units, as is the V6 automatic tranny. Only the 4 cylinder auto is a Ford unit (tranny only).

    Why use a lame tranny with a terrible repair history? Read the 626 topic for yourself, there are several stories of trannies slipping and failing early, usually before 80k miles.

    It's been refined over the years, but imagine the same tranny in a heavier vehicle with a V6 engine (lots more torque).

    -juice
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    Well I was reading a thread at Mhaven (M3 BBS?) and one guy was mad and stunned that an econobox Impreza WRX wacked him silly at the streets. He thought his M3 is King of the road or something.... geez.
    There was a test b/t an M5 (400hp) against an STi WRX. guess who won? It was done in South Africa.
    I guess the worlds' fastest sedan ain't that fast after all huh? ;-)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I remember a car mag in the US compared the 22B to the M3, and though the M3 took the nod overall, the Soob had most of the performance categories.

    :)

    -juice
  • abhidharmaabhidharma Member Posts: 93
    ...kind of fits Subaru's openly acknowledged marketing strategy to go after the gay/lesbian market. I admire Subaru for not being afraid to take a stand on an issue that can often be divisive. (Witness our discussion on this board a while back on using Martina Navratilova in the ads.)

    Randy
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    They could always call it the OutBUTCH. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    It's just their marketing strategy. Goes along with their niche marketing.

    -mike
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    That could be a special model...as not to offend drag queens and lipstick lesbians. Oh...this is a bad road to go down....I'll engage my 2-stage Soobie brake system NOW. :-)

    Stephen
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    LOL, careful now, it's wet out today (well it is in Vancouver) so you may activate your ABS :-)

    Drew
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    I know....I was laughing and thinking the same thing, although we're still dry in Seattle @ 1pm.

    Stephen :-)
  • lergeson1lergeson1 Member Posts: 15
    I see that in the incentives and rebates section of Edmunds that Subaru is offering lease incentives on their MY01 Legacy and Outbacks, including the VDC and LL Bean. The lease offers expire in 2 days (the 31st). My question is how they can have a lease offer on 2 vehicles that haven't even arrived on dealers lots yet? Is this a normal marketing effort to get the vehicles sold before they even arrive? Or, is it just an error in what was published? Just curious. I also saw the VDC and LLBean were included in the MY01 Subaru section, although the review was mainly all about the current Outback.
    -Leif
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