Subaru Crew - Future Models

rsholland

Mazda is seriously considering producing their "RX-7 Evolv" concept vehicle, which is also a 4-door coupe.

Let's do it Subaru!

Bob

paisan

Do you prefer mild or extra whacky?

I agree I'd like to see an SVX return perhaps on the same platform as before w/an updated dash, and 3.0 liter TT.

The japanese sports cars of yore are gone in the US... (300zx, Supra, 3000VR4, RX7) The SUV craze has really killed that market. Why should subaru jump in and risk valuable R&D on such a project?

As for the roadster, good luck. SOA is not a financial giant (even with GMs money) and cannot afford to risk the $ and time in such a car. Look how long it took for the 2.0l turbo to get in the US? If that is an example of anything, any performance models will be slow coming.

And this all from an owner of an '88 XT6 which had the most novel items ever in a car (electric power steering pump, 4 wheel independent Air Bag suspension, H6 engine)

-mike

rsholland

The RX-7 is reportedly returning. Toyota just introduced a new MR2. Honda's got the S2000. Who knows, it could happen -- especially if Subaru is serious about establishing a performance image.

Besides, if you can't dream (and let it be known), nothing will ever happen.

Also, the SUV market is beginning to show signs of decline. At least that's true of the truck-based models.

Bob

armac13

history. Didn't Subaru almost die (at least in NA) through trying to provide a car for every niche? I would hate to see the viability of the company be endangered by repeating the past.

Ross

rsholland

died by trying to compete head-to-head with Toyota and Honda with bland, mainstream vehicles, not for providing cars to fill every niche.

Also, Subaru today is in a much stronger position than it ever has been. They build great cars, they're getting excellent press coverage, and the word is getting out. You can't compare the Subaru/Fuji Corporation of today, with the Subaru/Fuji Corporation of five or ten years ago.

I'm not saying fill every niche. Subaru has decided to focus in two main areas: SUV/hybrids and sports/performance vehicles. The two vehicles I suggested fit neatly into the sports/performance arena.

Bob

compupsych

I've seen some concerns about the reliability of the Subaru Impreza vs. Honda/Toyota. I looked at the Consumer Reports for the Impreza and it has done quite well as far back as data is available (not a single black circle).

kens

Bill,

Interesting post. Actually, my younger brother just ordered a VDC wagon this weekend. Why did he choose the VDC?

1) He needs a wagon because he owns a dog
2) He doesn't want a sloppy handling truck
3) He wanted a "nice" model but couldn't justify the payments for an Audi, BMW or SAAB.
4) He currently owns a Passat GLS V6 sedan and likes it a lot, but he didn't want to pay MSRP+ for a Passat wagon (they're rare)
5) He test drove the OB and liked everything about it except it's lack of ooomph.
6) His older brother is a Subaru nut.

The local dealer is accepting orders for October delivery. They will let him test drive it and think about it before he needs to make the buy decision. I sure can't wait to check it out!


Ken

WMarton

Ken:

How much is your brother paying for the VDC? I'm waiting to see what the United Buying Service price is...I'm hoping that it will be about $400 or so over invoice. Also, I'm surprised that your brother encountered such high prices for the Passat. Here in the DC area there are tons of Sub. and VW dealerships. For example, I got a quick quote from a local dealership on a Passt GLX wagon that was about $1,100 over invoice and included some junk fees in it. UBS last year was about $700-$750 over invoice.

Bob:

Don't underestimate how small a company Fuji is. It's very much undercapitalized compared to other manufacturers and therefore extremely conservative when it comes to introducing actual production models. Personally, I think that a roadster would be a huge mistake; way too small a market. My advice would be to get the new turbo and H-6 into their bread and butter lines as fast as possible before introducing new models.

Bill

rsholland

According to this link, the "switchback" mid-gate will NOT make production on the new ST-X. This feature is, in my opinion, the best idea the concept vehicle had.

If this is true, Subaru -- you blew it! This was a stupid decision!

Bob

http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/subaru911.htm

subaru_team

commentary by all!! Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts and opinions. My goal here is to accept all that you share and "try" to keep my opinions out (that seems to foster a more open, sharing forum). I've clipped everything and I'll send it around the company (Product Planning, Marketing, etc.).

Thanks!

subaru_team

Simmah down now! I'll try to get info. about what is going on. I'll post as soon as I get a response.

Thanks!

hardenbr

Bob and Colin,

Opinions vary about everything, sometimes based on personal experience and circumstance. Just like in the previous discussions about who would buy the VDC, I'm looking at who would buy the ST-X, or more importantly, what would they use it for?

I don't know how Bob or Colin would use their ST-X. I'm interested in the ST-X for it's utility. I'm a homeowner, gardener, woodworker, fisherman. My ST-X would primarily be a commuter vehicle, but on not too rare occasions it would carry, mulch, manure, plants, plywood, lumber, or fishing gear. It would have to do all of this during every season that New England can throw my way.

I did look at the Subaru site, and the switchback system looks interesting, but I repeat my concern over durability. With my S10 it can be tough to close the tailgate after hauling a load of mulch, and usually requires a good cleaning to get the stuff out of the hinges. I don't know how this would be with the switchback. Subaru would have to prove it's functionality. The purpose of a PU is utility. If you don't need to haul the stuff I've mentioned, then you are probably better off with a Forester or OB.

That's just one opinion, but if Subaru is trying to compete with other four door pick-ups, then these seem to be valid considerations.

Russ

locke2c

I bet it's a cost issue... I would have liked to see the switchback cab make it into production too.

My mulch comes in bags, Russ.

-Colin

bluesubie

What about seating for 5 and adjustable suspension? The ST-X will be the perfect companion to a WRX (if I can afford the insurance :-)). Could've used a pick-up this past weekend hauling old fence wood. Instead, I sawed everything in half and stuck it in my OBS.

Dennis

hardenbr

Colin,

Real men don't buy mulch in bags.

Cost seems likely reason over utility. Especially considering the way Subaru enthused over the switchback system on the web page.

Please understand, I'm not against the concept (sounds cool) as long as it works. And as long as it fits the buyer's needs. The targeted customer will probably not be a typical PU owner. The ST-X will likely go head to head against the X-Terra, aimed at the rough and tumble outdoorsy X-Geners. The ads will all be in the outback (pun intended) with a couple of mountain bikes in the bed. That buyer would clearly love the switchback system.

I guess we'll never know.

Russ

dsattler

...is that the six make it into the Legacy GT/GT Wagon ASAP. Though an AWD mini-van would be nice. However, with all due respect, as a Miata owner I feel all two-seat roadsters should be RWD.

nematode

Apples and Oranges? Or a nice battle for your boy racer dollars?

Alero OSV (still a concept?)
2.4L Supercharged variant of the GM DOHC
230hp at 6000rpm
230ft/lb torque at 4100rpm
3100lb Curb weight
5spd
FWD

Impreza (2002 WRX)
2.5L Turbocharged variant of the Subaru H4
220 hp at 6000rpm
230ft/lb torque at 3500rpm
3000lb Curb weight
5spd
AWD

kens

Bill,

My bro is paying 5.75% over invoice on the VDC.

Ken

locke2c

You don't happen to have a specific number on that do you Ken? You know, something to rub in the face of the $32,000 critics.

-Colin

WMarton

The invoice price for the VDC is $28,839, not including the $495 destination charge. So Ken's brother should be paying something in the neighborhood of $30,500 + dest. What a deal for the dealer!--by ordering the car direct from the factory they get to pocket the 2% holdback plus sell the car for nearly $1,700 over invoice. All told, the dealer will make over $2,200 on the deal. Compare this to the typical four cylinder Outback that sells for a few hundred dollars over invoice.

dsattler: According to the Sub. folks who I talked to in Reston, the GT is more likely to get a 2.0 liter turbo than the H6.

Russ: What do you think of men who throw their non-bagged mulch into an open-air trailer attached to their Outback/Forester? Are we "partial men"?

Bill

dsattler

...a turbo!

dsattler

Reliable Subaru or questionable GM product? Now that's apples and oranges.

miksmi

Hi Bill, nice to meet you at the Subaru Outback Rendezvous! Thanks for your post; glad you've graduated from lurker to poster.

The seat issue was somewhat a consideration for my wife and I, though our height difference is but 6 inches. I *really* didn't want an electric seat because I thought sliding it back and forth would take too long. If I want the seat back, I want it back NOW! I thought futzing with the fore/aft seat adjustment would be a royal pain but it's not as bad as I thought (and I'm a pessimist).

I guess one consideration is how many times do you switch cars? We switch much less than I imagined when I was thinking of hypothetical worst-case scenarios. My wife drives the GT during the week; if we're driving somewhere on the weekend and need to haul stuff, I drive. (That way, we don't fight over a material possession in front of the kids.) So for us, I only adjust the seat (at most) once a week on Saturday and she adjusts it once a week on Monday moring. Still, if memory seats are your hot button (like cup holders for me definitely rank it high on your priority list. No one wants to regret making a compromise on such an expensive purchase. And the Passat's a fine vehicle.

If you're considering UBS, you might also consider CarBargains (Washington Consumer's Checkbook). I found they negotiated a better price than UBS ($87 over invoice). Click on my profile for details: miksmi. However, it's going to be to tough to find good pricing for the first few months after the H-6 arrival (October); this might be an advantage for choosing the Passat GLX.

Bob, I hope that Automotive News article is wrong (what, the media wrong? nah!). I agree w/Colin, probably a cost issue. Also agree w/Russ, the switchback has to be reliable (wouldn't want to tarnish the hard-earned reputation, especially on such a small component of the entire automotive system).

Mulch: This lazy boy has it delivered (minimum of 4 cubic yards) for about $15 more than the material alone. Besides, GT's, even when shaken not stirred, won't mix with mulch

..Mike

lucien2

interesting stance from your 99% definite turbo demographic:

http://www.impreza-rs.com/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/013065.html

rsholland

Chevy seems to think it will work just fine. Anybody seen their new Avalanche that's about to go into production shortly? It has that feature.

Bob

hardenbr

Bill,

You got me. I can't think of a comeback. I've hauled about as much mulch in my trailer, as I have in the PU bed. If you are a partial man, then so am I. On the other hand, I tend to be "partial" to women.

One thing I like about a PU, versus trailer, is that I often pick up materials on the way home from work, and parking with trailer all day could be a problem. Other than that it would work just fine.

An ST-X in combo with a utility trailer would be a very versatile package. In fact it might offer some real advantages. A 4X8 foot light duty trailer is inexpensive, low to the ground, bigger than any small PU bed, and the dirty stuff stays completely away from the tow vehicle. Also, if you don't have time to unload, you can just unhitch the trailer with load until you get to it.

Now, if only we had a 3500 lb tow rating, like the Tribute...

greyfalcon

Who's in the niche?
People who have one car to commute, play, take long journeys, camp, and haul stuff with. People who can afford to pay for a bit more power and don't need to hang their genitalia out the front of the car as in a Mustang, Camaro, Viper (hey, not my words, I took it from Car and Driver). In short, single parents and empty nesters. That's a rather big niche right now and growing. We don't want no SUV. We don't want no Cavalier. We don't need no Porshe 911. A turbo Impreza wagon with the right suspension and all would do just fine. Sure, a sedan would probably serve if they would just make the seats fold down. This niche is full of seasoned personalilties who want something a bit unusual and have the money to pay.

lucien2

Well sure, but the folks over on that link clamoring for the turbo wagon are mostly single and young, or at least young!! So, actually, you're looking at a bigger population. condolences on your Blazer. My college dorm mate's Blazer lived up to its name when the entire electrical system committed hara-kiri from headlights to license plate mount. most of the dash board was gone by the time the fire truck arrived. 40,000 miles on it at the time.

FWIW, I ditched my Legacy B4 wagon in Gran Turismo 2 in favor of an STi Version IV Impreza wagon. Now if only it were so easy in real life......

paisan

Well you know the one on the avalanche doesn't need to last more than 3-4 years, cause that's about how long the bells and whistles last on american cars (if that long)



-mike

paisan

How much could it cost to put out a WRX wagon? slap the engine and suspension on the body and bam, it's not like they aren't producing them for other markets... I think you'd be shooting yourselves in the foot to not include that niche, hell most subaru stuff is a niche market to begin with.

-mike

lucien2

they already make the WRX wagon; we're just advocating bringing it to the US.

here is a picture and some consumer survey thingy:
http://www.carsurvey.org/model_Subaru_Impreza.html

World manufacturers usually dump the cool wagon for the US market because Americans equate wagons with a frumpy, homestyle image. Hence no RS4, no B4, no WRX wagon...heck you STILL can't get even the 2.5 in the impreza. Gotta wait till 2001 for that.

Thankfully, the tide is beginning to change. At least we have the A4 and A6 avant (no S variants right now here in the US) and the Soob GT wagon. Passats are selling well too, and Ford has decided to offer a manual trans Focus wagon. Audi's high-tech allroad will be here shortly and, although it isn't a sport wagon, is still hotbed of technology that is far more appealing tan an SUV.

gedwards

Hi folks,

I am looking for information on any shops in the Toronto area that carry STi or similarly high-quality parts for Subaru, specifically the Legacy GT.

If you have any ideas, please post their name or address, or even better, their website.

Thanks!

dylanrn10

Is is true that you cannot get the Legacy wagon with airbags--there is no GT Limited model for the Legacy wagon? Thanks in advance.

paisan

You can however get the GT wagon with leather. (that's what I was about to get before my trooper)

-mike

bluesubie

Don't know if anyone saw this posted at the i-club (or anywhere else). Here's a sighting of the new wagon in Australia. Sweet!
http://www.act.wrx.com.au/gallery/my2001act.htm

And for those that think the i-club is just a bunch of young 'uns, check this post out:
http://www.impreza-rs.com/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/012140.html

Dennis

aakerson

The pix make this look like a BMW 3-series beater. Yeah, I guess -- the 3 handles better, has more acceleration, etc. at least as compared to the American version that we will be getting. And 3 is now touting all-wheel drive. but they'll never match Subaru in price (and they don't want to) or in dealer support (can you say snooty beyond belief?)

Based on these pix, the wagon looks like a true and real winner -- mch more of a design breakthtough than the new generation Outback (of which we have two). Put a power tilt seat in this sucker, add the turbo, and my Outback is on its way back to the dealer for an early trade-in.

lucien2

I didn't mean to say that all RS drivers were kids. My point was there didn't seem to be too many "empty nesters" over there. Most of the folks on that thread are thirtysomething.

texsubaru

Wow, I'm not a huge wagon fan (though many would argue, not without reason, that my Forester is just a tall wagon), that is a nice-looking car! The sleek, sporty look makes it seem like a good potential crossover vehicle appealing to sports sedan shoppers or hatchback buyers as well as to fans of small wagons. In fact, it looks enough like a sports hatchback that I worry a bit that marketing types might be tempted to write it off for the American market just because 4-door hatchbacks typically haven't fared well here. (Of course, that's because a lot of them marketed here were ugly dang Chevy Citation-looking things.)

miksmi

The early design sketches were drafted in 1995 (before, Ishii notes, Toyota's round-eyed Corolla broke cover) and the final clay models were signed off in August 1997.

Quote from "What the waiters saw: secrets of that Subaru styling", Sydney Morning Herald
Friday, September 15, 2000, posted on i Club.

..Mike

francophile

mikesmi, you said one issue with the electic seat is, how often do you change drivers? I was like you, thinking the electric seat was more gimmick than substance, particularly after my long history with Peugeot's EXCELLENT seats (which, by the way, have been adjustable six ways from sunday, manually, for eons). However I discovered one pretty cool thing about the electric seat adjustment in my 00 GT; micro-adjustablility. I'm serious when I saw that I now change seat position when I change SHOES. Or if I'm wearing extra layers over my torso, such as a heavy coat. Micro-adjustment; very cool. I can be just exactly where I want to be.

Cheers,
wdb

miksmi

Bob, this one's for you, as I know you're a Saturday morning Edmunds hound. Here are some links from i Club: 2002 WRX encounter thread; photos.

Enjoy.

Dave, I'm not familiar with the seat's micro-adjustment (unless I'm already using it). I'll check the manual.

..Mike

rsholland

Yep - I'm an Edmund's Weekend Warrior! Thanks for the pix-post.

Bob

rsholland

These photos are from the Nurburgring track in Germany.

http://fto-web.members.easyspace.com/images/Rallies/Nurburgring/wrx.jpg

http://fto-web.members.easyspace.com/Nurburgring%20Rally.htm

Bob

aling

I say give us both STi and Turbo versions complete with the HID headlights and the rear wipers. The tinted rear windows look great. But, drop those chessy gold wheels (yuck!) on the STi and switch them for some regular silver ones.

Thanks for the heads-up, Bob!
Drew

locke2c

Man, I wonder what sort of camera took those pictures. If it was a digital camera, the images are absolutely awesome even after the resolution reduction for web use.

I like the STi fine. The good wheels are fine too. I would prefer silver but could live with gold because I'd use them for slicks.

-Colin

lucien2

boy howdy those look good. Wish I could afford one to replace Kirst's truck. It is tempting to wait for one, even a new-style Impreza L or Sport. On the other hand, ther are gonna be some GREAT deels on the '01 OBS and RS models in the Spring. Hmmmm..... :-|

miksmi

You're welcome, Bob. And your link was a nice "thank you"! I agree w/Drew on all points, but especially, lose the gold wheels.
..Mike

rsholland

Okay folks, time to think up possible names for the "production" 2003 ST-X pickup. Even though there's no guarantee Subaru will use them, it could be fun.


Obvious choices:


BRAT

Positive
It certainly has name recognition, and equity. It's always good to link to history where possible. It gives a product more substance, from an image standpoint.

Negative
The name means something only to long-time Subaru followers, so the recognition factor is relatively low. Also, there are negative connotations to the word "brat," which is something no company wants to have with a new product. The word BRAT may have worked back in the late '70s, but I doubt it would be successful in today's market.


OutBRAT

Positive
Links Outback to BRAT.

Negative
A name that sounds "forced," and is somewhat hokey. Same positive/negative connotations as listed above.


ST-X

Positive
The name is already out there. Folks are familiar with it.

Negative
ST-X stands for "Subaru Truck-Experimental." Well, it's no longer experimental. Perhaps "eXtreme?" I doubt it.


My choice:


rooCREW, or ruCREW

Positive

"rooCREW" links Subaru/kangaroo/Australia/Outback with a crew-cab pickup. It would keep Crocodile Dundee employed for a bit longer.

"ruCREW" links Subaru with crew-cab pickup.

Both are fun names that are memorable, catchy, easy to say, and positive.

Negative

Can't think of any off hand.

Bob

locke2c

The gold wheels aren't half as offensive to me as the carbon fiber trim that's *standard* in the 2001 2.5RS. Blech.

Apologies in advance for any lurkers who own one and I might be offending.

-Colin

miksmi

Ew! Agreed Colin, carbon fiber, yeck (apologies juice and other fanciers). Any idea if carbon fiber retains heat more than the vanilla plastic we already have? I thought the aluminum-trimmed interior of the Audi TT looked cool until imagining my fingers touching say, the shift knob on a hot day. Not so cool. Keep carbon fiber where it belongs, in structural members to provide strength, rigidity, and reduce weight. Like on a 777. Or bicycle frames, or strut braces.

..Mike