are diferent type of twisties. I highly dount it can corner on much tighter twisties. Mike's prolly refering to sweepers. Confident you may be paisan, but understimate not the laws of physics. (yoda style) ;-)
Yes, the laws of physics still do hold true... But, if you know your vehicle you can push em to just about the limit. Most are sweepers, but on one dirt road i've had the Trooper doing 4 wheel drifts through the turns @ 50-55mph. On the tight twisties on the blacktop I take advantage of the High tourque, high acceration to pick up speed on the straights (and the excellent brakes to slow down and not roll at the last moment) I actually did a few 4 wheel drifts on the pavement w/o rolling the trooper.
So yes, it won't corner like an RS or any subie, they are not as "non-nimble" as one might think. I'm actually looking forward to putting in the Rancho 9000 adjustable gas shocks to replace the stock hydrolic ones.
Well in my Trooper (sorry to bring it up again) the heated seats have a switch that goes 2 ways. Forward is "Heat" backward is "Keep". Heat will keep the seats roasting up to the max temp. Once you get the seat to the temp of your choosing (or that your butt can handle) you can flip it to "Keep" and it will keep it at that temp. On my uncle's '97 OB, he had "Hi" "Low" and "Off"
The LL Bean certainly is comfortable and smooth. Yes, it is faster than the H4 - if you floor it. For normal stop-n'-go driving, it didn't feel that much different from an H4.
Let me rephrase that: It is (a bit) faster than the H4 under all normal driving conditions, but not dramaticly so. It really feels like what the Outback should have been in the first place, from a power standpoint. It's a comfy luxo-cruiser, not a sport(ing) vehicle. Anybody thinking they're going to mix it up with the euro-sports sedans/wagons will be disappointed.
I think the engine is great, but it is screaming to be hooked up to a good 5-speed manual. Heck, even a 5-speed auto with sport-shift would be much appreciated.
Also, didn't care for the auto climate control. In order to see the outside temperature, you lose the other climate control features. If you hit the outside temp button, it flashes for a few seconds, then disappears, and the other climate control switches return. If you hold the outside temp button down (until it beeps), then it will stay on, but you don't have the climate control switches. Subaru - this is a DUMB design!
Frankly, I'm glad we bought our Forester. It's more fun to drive, even with the automatic.
And yes, the moonroof is also noisy when open. Perhaps even worse than the Forester's!
I test drove a V-6 Mazda Tribute DX last weekend (because I got a mailing from Mazda offering me a $50 Borders Books gift certificate if I did a test drive). Not about to dump my Forester for the Tribute, but -- if the quality control concerns that have haunted its Escape twin could get resolved -- I was favorably impressed in some areas. One personal bias note before going any further: one of the best cars I ever owned (prior to my '98 Forester) was my '91 Mazda 626, and easily the best car my girlfriend ever owned was her '89 Mazda 323, so we tend to regard Mazda favorably The two main things I liked about the Tribute were the engine power and the back seat room. On low-end acceleration -- 0 to 30 mph or so -- the V-6 didn't feel significantly faster than my Forester's H4, but in highway passing acceleration, say about 50 to 75 mph, the Tribute did feel noticeably brisker. The cabin roominess was more obvious. The legroom in the Trbute's back seat was vastly better than in my Forester (this really jumped out at my because, while I seldom have to ride back there, I do consider the tight backseat legroom to be my Forester's biggest weakness). The front passenger area in the Tribute also felt a little wider than my Forester, though not spectacularly so. Just eye-balling it, the Tribute's rear cargo space, with the back seat up, appeared to be extremely similar to the Forester's, but larger than the Foresters if the rear seat is folded down. The Tribute's handling felt quite nice and crisp, but the body lean in tight turns was heavier enough than the Forester's that I felt very conscious of the fact that the Tribute's center of gravity was higher., Of course, you do get better ground clearance in the Tribute. If I were offroad dodging stumps, I might be happier with the Tribute's higher clearance, but on a curvy mountain road I'd feel more confident in the Forester. I also noticed the road/drivetrain noise in the Tribute. I'm not sure if it's really all that much louder than in the Forester, or if was just different in tone (perhaps higher pitched and squeally compared with the Subaru low growl). And there's the fact that I was test driving the low-end DX trim; the pricier Tribute LX or ES models might offer better soundproofing. The DX interior trim also left me with mixed feelings. The dash seemed generally well-laid, but was riddled with all sort of small, odd empty spaces, where I assume accessories on better-equipped models go. The DX also has no center console. And there's the column-mounted shifter with automatic tranny, which strikes me as stylistically dorky as heck, but undoubtedly you'd get used to it pretty quickly in everyday use. One of the biggest flaws for me in the Tribute interior trims was that you have to go up to an LX model to a 60/40 split rear seat with rear passenger headrests (the DX just has a cheap-ish single-piece bench rear seat). I like the exterior styling of the Tribute quite a lot; I find it at least as nice as the Forester's and maybe even a bit nicer. I also like the way you can open the Tribute's rear hatch window independently of the hatch itself. However, the way the window/hatch release handles are arranged right next to each other on the tailgate, it seemed easy to me to pop open one when you really wanted the other. At first glance, the sticker prices on Tributes appeared quite competitive, but, after a closer look, I don't think the pricing actually works out to Mazda's advantage. The standard equipment on the Tribute DX doesn't equal the Forester L; to roughly match the Forester L, you'd have to ante up for a Tribute LX V-6 with the AWD option, which bulks up the Mazda's pricetag considerably.
The best thing Subaru has going for it regarding these two new models is the fact that Ford - and especially the Escape/Tribute - have had a horrible year and new model launch in terms of recalls. Ford's bad press is Subaru's good friend.
If these recalls had not occurred, Subaru and other small SUVs would be in a sales dogfight with the Escape/Tribute.
The more I think about the LL Bean/VDC's automatic temperature control, the more idiotic it becomes.
The regular Legacy Outback has the outside temperature gauge in the same window as the clock. While this is not great (both are hard to read because it is a small window), it is at least better than the solution offered in the LL Bean/VDC. As I mentioned in post #1719, when you select the outside temperature display, you lose the other climate control display. You can have either the outside temperature display, or the climate control display. You can't have both at the same time!
Why did Subaru - in their infinite wisdom - decide that this is a better solution than the base Outback's temperature gauge solution? I think somebody was asleep at the wheel.
Actually the Forester has the best solution for the outside temperature gauge/clock. The clock is mounted overhead and centered, so that every passenger can view it. The outside temperature gauge is on the instrument cluster, by itself. Why couldn't Subaru opt for the Forester's solution. As I said before - DUMB!
I usually set my interior temp on 72 and leave it alone almost 90% of the time. Also I have the outside temp guage on my '88 XT6 and on that I hit the outside temp guage and then flip it back to the clock, rarely looking at it for an extended period of time. While I haven't had a chance to get an up-close look at the new guages, I don't think that should be such a big issue. They were probably trying to cater to the people who say "I don't want a million digital displays in my car" I personally like the analog automatic temp controls on my '00 Trooper.
When the outside temperature gauge is being displayed, you don't get the following displays:
Fan position, direction of inside air (dash, floor, etc.), inside temperature control, and inside vs. outside air control. You don't know what is selected - nor can you change any of those settings.
For being Subaru's premium flagship vehicles, this is clearly speaks of being a cost-cutting measure. That's why it's a big issue. And besides, I "LIKE" having all those displays available to me all the time.
I like the clock position in the dash of the Outbacks and dislike the LED clock by the rearview mirror of the Forester. Everybody seems to have a different opinion, don't they?
You're right. Everybody has a different opinion, and is certainly entitled to that right.
My point about the clock centered on the ceiling near the rearview mirror, is that it is visible to everyone in the vehicle. I feel a clock, unlike a "driver's" gauge such as a speedometer, fuel gauge, etc., should be convenient to everyone in the car. If the clock is in the instrument cluster, it's mainly for just the driver to view.
I was comparing the specs of the euro-spec Imprezas, and noticed that the wagons have a narrower track (tread) than the sedans. This probably accounts for the fender blisters that the sedans have, and wagons don't.
The question is: Why? Why doesn't the sedan and wagon share the same tread specifications? One would have to assume that the sedan is the better "handler" because of this.
Actually, I think the early Honda Accords had the best clock position. It was mounted high and centered on the dash. It was easily visible to everyone.
My Explorer has the clock buried in the radio - another dumb design.
The climate control on the LL Bean/VDC is what I call classic "gadgetry for gadget sake," not "gadgetry to make something function better." Whenever that happens, it is BAD design.
I like my Forester's set up. Clock up high, separate from the radio so I know what station I'm listening to.
Interesting review of the LL Bean, Bob. It almost seems like you're more demanding and may even prefer the VDC. Keep in mind that at $28.7k it's not really in the same price ballpark as the Europeans.
tex: good point about the Tribute. The base DX models are stripped, almost as if they exist only so Mazda can advertise the low price. Then they bait-and-switch you when you get to the dealer and show you $25k ES models.
IMO, it's a shame Mazda didn't use their own powertrains. The wife's 626 is reliable, and that V6 uses a reliable Mazda tranny. Why use a Ford V6 and Ford tranny known to be bad?
Bummer that the WRX wagon is more narrow and also doesn't get the flares. Oh well, can't afford one now any ways.
I'm not sure that's the case (prefering a VDC model over an LL Bean). The issues I mentioned in my posts involve both models.
I guess I've just gotten used to our new Forester, and I've found it to be more fun to drive (even with the automatic) than the H-6 LL Bean. So, that was a bit of a downer. Somehow I expected more.
Unless you need the extra space, and all the gizmos that the H-6 Outback offers, I think the Forester S Premium is a better deal. I'm not wild about leather or power seats. I much prefer the Forester's moonroof. I've already discussed/bored everybody with my comments on the climate control. And, as I said, the Forester is certainly more fun to drive.
When that H-6 becomes more available on lesser Subarus, I'll be at the front of the line.
The LLBean will actually have more pickup on a straightline than the VDC will, due to the traction control which will if anything slow down the vehicle rather than speed it up.
In the USA! Good old liability get's us a lesser vehicle... I think SOA is afraid to put in an off switch because people would turn it off and then proceed to get into an accident and try to blame SOA or at the least give it bad press.
I didn't notice that. I did floor it from a dead stop up to about 80 mph (I was by myself - no salesman!), and it was quick - and it sounded glorious! It reved like crazy. But... in normal daily driving it didn't feel a whole lot quicker than the H-4.
Keep in mind, if one keeps putting the pedal-to-the-metal, to get one's jollys, the great EPA gas rating will be a joke.
The vehicle I drove was at Tiesher(sp?) Subaru in Silver Spring, MD.
Well you know if you drive any car with a light foot, you aren't gonna get exhilarating acceration! I just like to know when you mash the pedal, it's gonna move... That is what I demand in my cars.
I agree. However, with some cars, you can sense a "real power" - even when you don't use it. I didn't get that feeling with the LL Bean. It felt very ordinary in that respect. You have to make a deliberate effort with the right foot to feel that sense of power.
The H-6 Outback may just be "too" refined, as it stands. Subaru seems to have exorcised out all the fun gremlins/character.
Actually, that's TISCHER, as in remove the "C" and get TIS HER like Mike did.
I wonder if there's slack built-in to the throttle cable. Mercedes used to do that do get smoother starts. Some GM V6s had the opposite - zero slack to make throttle tip-in seem stronger, but that made starts not-so-smooth.
MBzs still have long travel accelerator and brake pedals; the first inch and a half or so of travel doesn't really do much. Supposedly this is for better control, but you have to get used to it because it feels a little spongy at first. With the drive-by-wire system introduced a few years ago though, the computer is apparently able to vary the responsiveness of the throttle (seemless when the traction control is activated). Soon to come, drive-by-wire braking. There will be failsaves built in of course, so that a computer failure/problem won't result in the inability to apply the brakes.
Chrysler still uses that quick throttle tip-in, even with their minivans. It makes it seem deceptively quicker off the line :-) But, the quick tip-in is annoying in the Jeeps since it makes off-roading in tight spots quite tricky (of course this is a moot point if you don't go off-roading). ;-)
Drew/aling Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
I get a similar feeling on my Trooper, my aunt's SVX, my XT6, and just about any other car I've driven that has a big engine and AWD. I think the AWD has something to do with that not-so-brisk off the line feeling. I could be completely wrong though. I love the drive by wire on the trooper though
My dad's 99 4Runner v6 had a lot of throttle slack. It was really annoying. Got under the hood, adjusted the throttle cables and the problem is 90% fixed. It's still slightly mushy even though the cables are taut.
"The LLBean will actually have more pickup on a straightline than the VDC will, due to the traction control which will if anything slow down the vehicle rather than speed it up."
I disagree. Why would traction control slow down the vehicle if it is not activated? The VDC wagon should actually be slightly faster than the L.L Bean wagon since electronics (light) take the place of the mechanical rear LSD.
Drew/aling Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
What does these clocks and swtiches have anything to do with future models? Hmm... I think it's good that the WRX wagon does not have the fenders as it would look like Forester (nothing wrong with the Forester!). But why make another Forester right?
No slack. My car goes zoom zoom zoom. I love that song. And err. a row of Miatas does not count as family of sports cars! Bring back the RX-7 and ditch the Tribute! Drive by wite sux as it takes the joy out of the car's true throttle response. Stupid mfg these days first takes away the joy of rowing the gears then adds anti slip devices and now drive by wires which pretty much takes your input and remodify it within it's computer and decides whether you can go faster or not.
When I was speaking with my buddy who's my subie salesman and also a mechanic. Basically he said the traction control will detect the slipage and then apply the brakes, thereby making it slightly slower than the LL Bean.
Yup. You bascially lose control of your own car. I guess it's good for regular joe blow. But basically it retards your engine output thus causing less wheel spin. That's all. Then there's some "better" ones that are like what paisan says, adjust the ABS. Still can't beat AWD tho. hahahah
Subaru's TRACS can apply the brakes and reduce engine torque, similar to the systems found in MBzs and BMWs. AFAIK, one of the few TRACS that only retards the engine ouput is the system found on the Saturn compact cars. Applying the brakes to the spinning wheel is in essence like having a locking diffy or LSD since the power is not leaked out through that wheel.
I'm not sure about the VDC wagon (does it have a drive-by-wire system???) but there is actually no engine retardation with the MB system because of the drive-by-wire system. The computer simply overrides the driver's throttle pedal input and reduces throttle. Hence, there is no weird pulsing of the throttle pedal like you'll find in other cars.
BTW, the drive-by-wire systems in many vehicles actually have decent feel (the Corvette or BMW M5 for example).
Drew/aling Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference P.S. Loved your report on the mudflaps saga ;-) No snow yet in Vancouver.
a fellow canuck! what are the odds?! kewl. I think all cheap cars retard the engine output as a traction control. I heard the corvette's drive by wire feel was a "mistake" or an accident. That is why it worked so well.
well there's no snow here yet too. But don't want to be caught stuck with one. Ahh....gotta love Crappy Tire and their monopoly money!
LOL, I've been hanging around the Subie topics for almost a year now. Where have you been? ;-) Pat Dubois is another fellow Canuck (Outback owner), and he's also in Vancouver.
Cheaper cars with TRACS usually use brake-only systems or engine-only systems. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but neither is as good as the brake & engine TRACS.
Porsches also have drive-by-wire systems, and the throttle pedal felt pretty good to me! :-)
Yes, Canadian Tire and the monopoly money. "Crappy" is actually not that much of an understatement. Here's my story:
A few years ago when I had my van's tires mounted at one of their stores, the technician deliberately broke the clamps that held the CV boots into place. He then came out and informed me that both front clamps were broken and offered to fix them...for a price. I was livid because I knew there was nothing wrong with them before I brought the van in since I had just gone for a major service at the Chrysler dealership a few days earlier.
I declined and immediately drove to the Chrysler dealership where the service advisor and the techs put the van up on the lift. They came back and told me that there was absolutely no way that they could've missed that and the way the pieces were broken, there was no doubt that they were tampered with. The service advisor then phoned up Crappy Tire and spoke to the service manager. They ended getting into a pretty heated discussion at which point I left and told the service advisor to keep me informed.
In any case, the matter took two weeks to resolve (I added two cheap screw on clamps myself to prevent more of the grease from leaking out), and Canuck tire agreed to pay for the damages, even though my dealership was good enough to do it under warranty in the first week. At that point, I was already starting to get that horrible creak-creak-creak noise when turning.
Drew/aling Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
I think a clock should be viewable by everyone in the interior, if for no other reason than to relieve the driver from having to answer all those "What time is it?" questions which take his/her attention away from the serious business of driving. See there, it's a safety feature :-) I have to say though that I'm not quite sure what all the hubbub is regarding outside air temp. What value does it add? Why is outside air temperature a number that needs to be available at all times? I'm serious - I don't understand why it is so important.
As for drive-by-wire, I agree with the naysayers, although I've no doubt that I'll eventually wind up with a vehicle sporting said "feature". It just makes me chuckle and remember the day, many years back, that I drove my Mini station wagon home using the choke cable to control the throttles because the accelerator cable had broken.
well aling, it might hold true for the likes of Porsches. But I think I am refering to "more accesible cars" like VW's DBW or Audis even. They give very vague feeling. I'm sure alot of other affordable cars are like that too. Maybe not enuf tuning spent on them? Reminds me of ppl saying autos shifts are as fast as manuals. Unless you spend 6 figures for a Ferrari w/ a paddle shifter that can shift 600 times per minute, slushboxes and tiptronics on regualr cars will never be as fast as manuals. assuming equal cars.
PS - As an enginerd I can envision a more accurate system involving lasers, the refractive properties of tarmac and other strata, mirrored disks for fault tolerance, and a graphical representation of the adhesion coefficient. Unfortunately my cost analysis department projects the retail price (in volume quantities) to exceed that of the VDC. What do they know.
Mike's right. It's most useful when the outside temperature is hovering at or around freezing, and can alert you to possible frozen road surfaces. That's why it's a good safety issue, and should be visable at all times in cold weather.
It's also handy in extremely hot weather, as to warn you as to when your car could be in a potential over-heating situation, such as in stalled traffic on very hot days.
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Comments
So yes, it won't corner like an RS or any subie, they are not as "non-nimble" as one might think. I'm actually looking forward to putting in the Rancho 9000 adjustable gas shocks to replace the stock hydrolic ones.
Safe motoring!
-mike
-mike
i sincerely think Imprezas aren't that nimble too. A miata or any roadster can kick it's butt in autoX assuming drivers are equal.
Jeff
The LL Bean certainly is comfortable and smooth. Yes, it is faster than the H4 - if you floor it. For normal stop-n'-go driving, it didn't feel that much different from an H4.
Let me rephrase that: It is (a bit) faster than the H4 under all normal driving conditions, but not dramaticly so. It really feels like what the Outback should have been in the first place, from a power standpoint. It's a comfy luxo-cruiser, not a sport(ing) vehicle. Anybody thinking they're going to mix it up with the euro-sports sedans/wagons will be disappointed.
I think the engine is great, but it is screaming to be hooked up to a good 5-speed manual. Heck, even a 5-speed auto with sport-shift would be much appreciated.
Also, didn't care for the auto climate control. In order to see the outside temperature, you lose the other climate control features. If you hit the outside temp button, it flashes for a few seconds, then disappears, and the other climate control switches return. If you hold the outside temp button down (until it beeps), then it will stay on, but you don't have the climate control switches. Subaru - this is a DUMB design!
Frankly, I'm glad we bought our Forester. It's more fun to drive, even with the automatic.
And yes, the moonroof is also noisy when open. Perhaps even worse than the Forester's!
Bring on the WRX!
Bob
One personal bias note before going any further: one of the best cars I ever owned (prior to my '98 Forester) was my '91 Mazda 626, and easily the best car my girlfriend ever owned was her '89 Mazda 323, so we tend to regard Mazda favorably
The two main things I liked about the Tribute were the engine power and the back seat room.
On low-end acceleration -- 0 to 30 mph or so -- the V-6 didn't feel significantly faster than my Forester's H4, but in highway passing acceleration, say about 50 to 75 mph, the Tribute did feel noticeably brisker.
The cabin roominess was more obvious. The legroom in the Trbute's back seat was vastly better than in my Forester (this really jumped out at my because, while I seldom have to ride back there, I do consider the tight backseat legroom to be my Forester's biggest weakness). The front passenger area in the Tribute also felt a little wider than my Forester, though not spectacularly so. Just eye-balling it, the Tribute's rear cargo space, with the back seat up, appeared to be extremely similar to the Forester's, but larger than the Foresters if the rear seat is folded down.
The Tribute's handling felt quite nice and crisp, but the body lean in tight turns was heavier enough than the Forester's that I felt very conscious of the fact that the Tribute's center of gravity was higher., Of course, you do get better ground clearance in the Tribute. If I were offroad dodging stumps, I might be happier with the Tribute's higher clearance, but on a curvy mountain road I'd feel more confident in the Forester.
I also noticed the road/drivetrain noise in the Tribute. I'm not sure if it's really all that much louder than in the Forester, or if was just different in tone (perhaps higher pitched and squeally compared with the Subaru low growl). And there's the fact that I was test driving the low-end DX trim; the pricier Tribute LX or ES models might offer better soundproofing.
The DX interior trim also left me with mixed feelings. The dash seemed generally well-laid, but was riddled with all sort of small, odd empty spaces, where I assume accessories on better-equipped models go. The DX also has no center console. And there's the column-mounted shifter with automatic tranny, which strikes me as stylistically dorky as heck, but undoubtedly you'd get used to it pretty quickly in everyday use.
One of the biggest flaws for me in the Tribute interior trims was that you have to go up to an LX model to a 60/40 split rear seat with rear passenger headrests (the DX just has a cheap-ish single-piece bench rear seat).
I like the exterior styling of the Tribute quite a lot; I find it at least as nice as the Forester's and maybe even a bit nicer. I also like the way you can open the Tribute's rear hatch window independently of the hatch itself. However, the way the window/hatch release handles are arranged right next to each other on the tailgate, it seemed easy to me to pop open one when you really wanted the other.
At first glance, the sticker prices on Tributes appeared quite competitive, but, after a closer look, I don't think the pricing actually works out to Mazda's advantage. The standard equipment on the Tribute DX doesn't equal the Forester L; to roughly match the Forester L, you'd have to ante up for a Tribute LX V-6 with the AWD option, which bulks up the Mazda's pricetag considerably.
If these recalls had not occurred, Subaru and other small SUVs would be in a sales dogfight with the Escape/Tribute.
Bob
The regular Legacy Outback has the outside temperature gauge in the same window as the clock. While this is not great (both are hard to read because it is a small window), it is at least better than the solution offered in the LL Bean/VDC. As I mentioned in post #1719, when you select the outside temperature display, you lose the other climate control display. You can have either the outside temperature display, or the climate control display. You can't have both at the same time!
Why did Subaru - in their infinite wisdom - decide that this is a better solution than the base Outback's temperature gauge solution? I think somebody was asleep at the wheel.
Actually the Forester has the best solution for the outside temperature gauge/clock. The clock is mounted overhead and centered, so that every passenger can view it. The outside temperature gauge is on the instrument cluster, by itself. Why couldn't Subaru opt for the Forester's solution. As I said before - DUMB!
Bob
-mike
Fan position, direction of inside air (dash, floor, etc.), inside temperature control, and inside vs. outside air control. You don't know what is selected - nor can you change any of those settings.
For being Subaru's premium flagship vehicles, this is clearly speaks of being a cost-cutting measure. That's why it's a big issue. And besides, I "LIKE" having all those displays available to me all the time.
Bob
MikeF
My point about the clock centered on the ceiling near the rearview mirror, is that it is visible to everyone in the vehicle. I feel a clock, unlike a "driver's" gauge such as a speedometer, fuel gauge, etc., should be convenient to everyone in the car. If the clock is in the instrument cluster, it's mainly for just the driver to view.
Bob
Imprezas, and noticed that the wagons have a
narrower track (tread) than the sedans. This
probably accounts for the fender blisters that the
sedans have, and wagons don't.
The question is: Why? Why doesn't the sedan and
wagon share the same tread specifications? One
would have to assume that the sedan is the better
"handler" because of this.
Bob
http://www.fhi.co.jp/subaru/
Note: Go to "Lineup," then "Impreza," then
"Specifications."
MikeF
From what Bob (rsholland) said, LL Bean's design is really dumb.
My Explorer has the clock buried in the radio - another dumb design.
Bob
Bob
-mike
Bob
Interesting review of the LL Bean, Bob. It almost seems like you're more demanding and may even prefer the VDC. Keep in mind that at $28.7k it's not really in the same price ballpark as the Europeans.
tex: good point about the Tribute. The base DX models are stripped, almost as if they exist only so Mazda can advertise the low price. Then they bait-and-switch you when you get to the dealer and show you $25k ES models.
IMO, it's a shame Mazda didn't use their own powertrains. The wife's 626 is reliable, and that V6 uses a reliable Mazda tranny. Why use a Ford V6 and Ford tranny known to be bad?
Bummer that the WRX wagon is more narrow and also doesn't get the flares. Oh well, can't afford one now any ways.
-juice
Bob
I guess I've just gotten used to our new Forester, and I've found it to be more fun to drive (even with the automatic) than the H-6 LL Bean. So, that was a bit of a downer. Somehow I expected more.
Unless you need the extra space, and all the gizmos that the H-6 Outback offers, I think the Forester S Premium is a better deal. I'm not wild about leather or power seats. I much prefer the Forester's moonroof. I've already discussed/bored everybody with my comments on the climate control. And, as I said, the Forester is certainly more fun to drive.
When that H-6 becomes more available on lesser Subarus, I'll be at the front of the line.
Bob
-juice
-mike
Bob: could the H6 chirp the tires? That's tough with 3500+ lbs to pull and all four wheels gripping.
-uice
-mike
Keep in mind, if one keeps putting the pedal-to-the-metal, to get one's jollys, the great EPA gas rating will be a joke.
The vehicle I drove was at Tiesher(sp?) Subaru in Silver Spring, MD.
Bob
-mike
The H-6 Outback may just be "too" refined, as it stands. Subaru seems to have exorcised out all the fun gremlins/character.
Bob
I wonder if there's slack built-in to the throttle cable. Mercedes used to do that do get smoother starts. Some GM V6s had the opposite - zero slack to make throttle tip-in seem stronger, but that made starts not-so-smooth.
It's also something that can be fixed easily.
-juice
Chrysler still uses that quick throttle tip-in, even with their minivans. It makes it seem deceptively quicker off the line :-) But, the quick tip-in is annoying in the Jeeps since it makes off-roading in tight spots quite tricky (of course this is a moot point if you don't go off-roading). ;-)
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
-mike
-Colin
straightline than the VDC will, due to the traction control which will if anything slow down the vehicle rather than speed it up."
I disagree. Why would traction control slow down the vehicle if it is not activated? The VDC wagon should actually be slightly faster than the L.L Bean wagon since electronics (light) take the place of the mechanical rear LSD.
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
It seems linear to me. Normal, in other words.
-juice
-juice
I think it's good that the WRX wagon does not have the fenders as it would look like Forester (nothing wrong with the Forester!). But why make another Forester right?
Drive by wite sux as it takes the joy out of the car's true throttle response. Stupid mfg these days first takes away the joy of rowing the gears then adds anti slip devices and now drive by wires which pretty much takes your input and remodify it within it's computer and decides whether you can go faster or not.
-mike
So, tell us how you really feel about traction control!
paisan: that's true - IF it's slipping in the first place. Off the line, if the tires don't chirp, the traction control never kicks in.
-juice
I'm not sure about the VDC wagon (does it have a drive-by-wire system???) but there is actually no engine retardation with the MB system because of the drive-by-wire system. The computer simply overrides the driver's throttle pedal input and reduces throttle. Hence, there is no weird pulsing of the throttle pedal like you'll find in other cars.
BTW, the drive-by-wire systems in many vehicles actually have decent feel (the Corvette or BMW M5 for example).
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
P.S. Loved your report on the mudflaps saga ;-) No snow yet in Vancouver.
I heard the corvette's drive by wire feel was a "mistake" or an accident. That is why it worked so well.
well there's no snow here yet too. But don't want to be caught stuck with one. Ahh....gotta love Crappy Tire and their monopoly money!
Cheaper cars with TRACS usually use brake-only systems or engine-only systems. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but neither is as good as the brake & engine TRACS.
Porsches also have drive-by-wire systems, and the throttle pedal felt pretty good to me! :-)
Yes, Canadian Tire and the monopoly money. "Crappy" is actually not that much of an understatement. Here's my story:
A few years ago when I had my van's tires mounted at one of their stores, the technician deliberately broke the clamps that held the CV boots into place. He then came out and informed me that both front clamps were broken and offered to fix them...for a price. I was livid because I knew there was nothing wrong with them before I brought the van in since I had just gone for a major service at the Chrysler dealership a few days earlier.
I declined and immediately drove to the Chrysler dealership where the service advisor and the techs put the van up on the lift. They came back and told me that there was absolutely no way that they could've missed that and the way the pieces were broken, there was no doubt that they were tampered with. The service advisor then phoned up Crappy Tire and spoke to the service manager. They ended getting into a pretty heated discussion at which point I left and told the service advisor to keep me informed.
In any case, the matter took two weeks to resolve (I added two cheap screw on clamps myself to prevent more of the grease from leaking out), and Canuck tire agreed to pay for the damages, even though my dealership was good enough to do it under warranty in the first week. At that point, I was already starting to get that horrible creak-creak-creak noise when turning.
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
As for drive-by-wire, I agree with the naysayers, although I've no doubt that I'll eventually wind up with a vehicle sporting said "feature". It just makes me chuckle and remember the day, many years back, that I drove my Mini station wagon home using the choke cable to control the throttles because the accelerator cable had broken.
Cheers,
-wdb
..Mike
PS - As an enginerd I can envision a more accurate system involving lasers, the refractive properties of tarmac and other strata, mirrored disks for fault tolerance, and a graphical representation of the adhesion coefficient. Unfortunately my cost analysis department projects the retail price (in volume quantities) to exceed that of the VDC. What do they know.
..Mike
It's also handy in extremely hot weather, as to warn you as to when your car could be in a potential over-heating situation, such as in stalled traffic on very hot days.
Bob