Kurt: the Accord is a perfectly fine appliance, but you already have that! Their purposes overlap completely!
Don't get me wrong, both are nice, but why bother?
Get something different, that meets other needs. A wagon has the space, the roof rack, the towing capability.
Look at our fleet: we have a 626 V6 sedan for basic chores, a Forester sport/cute for hauling and versatility, and a Miata for fair weather fun. Each serves its own purpose well.
They're all fine cars you've listed, but any wagon will triple the amount of utility you'll get out of it.
Your constant Ford-bashing is really getting old and tiresome. I love Subarus and like my Explorer. No, my Explorer is not perfect, but it has a number of features that Subaru would do well to copy. And... yes, it has been very reliable too.
it's Friday! and look at all that elections suspense story! I've heard the suggestion that Bush takes M,W,F, Gore takes T, Th, Sat, and leave Sun to Pat Buchanan ;-)
Subaru vs. Honda -- 15 years experience with Honda products -- from Civic to RL and now a TL. RL -- boring as hell; three Legends (all 5 sp) great fun, but burned up a clutch and separately the transmission in one; Civic for my son -- so-so; Accord wagon for my wife a few years ago -- very good car, died a premature death thanks to another driver who plowed into it.
subarus -- 5 years experience--loved them all, absolutely amazed at the bad-weather roadability (on one trip to Lansing from St. Louis, the weather was so bad Michiganders were doing 20 mph and I was doing a comfortable 45). Also safe -- my wife totaled an OB three months after purchase (another premature death for one of her cars) and she merely walked away and called 911. Subarus used to be intrusively loud -- 2000's have quieted down. Power -- more with Hondas, but with a 5 sp. subartu much more fun.
Traction control vs AWD -- no comparison: with AWD you get real TRACTION. With traction control, all you get is the elimination of wheelspin as far as I'm concerned.
Go with the OB -- you'll love it, it will grow on you; you will become a member of the growing Subaru cult. Go with the Honda -- and you'll be pleased but bored. And everytime it rains, you'll wish for the Subaru.
I'm with you both! As a former Escort owner I wholeheartedly share Paisan's Ford-trashing attitude. Really, the car is dead since 1993,but is was such a lemon, I just cannot get over it.
But I also think that temp gauge in LLB as described by Bob is silly... and sometimes a small silly thing can ruin the whole experience.
Ok, peace?
p.s. Bob I liked your line "you win"... if only politicians could say the same, instead of threatening to sue each other.
I think most Jaguar X-Types will probably sticker closer to $35K. That's still pretty close to the $32K for the VDC.
I think the out-the-door prices could(?) make folks think twice for those AWD-oriented customers.
It's also rumored that Jaguar may offer an X-Type wagon down the road. My guess is that it would be more expensive than the sedan when (and if) it debuts.
I think all this recent attention for AWD is good. It will certainly make Subaru sharpen their focus - which will be good for all of us.
I agree. Ford made some pretty lousy products in the past. I think they've turned the corner and are making much better products today, and that their future looks very exciting.
I am concerned with all the recent recalls. I do, however, think that there will be a silver lining to all the recalls. I'm certain Ford (and others) will be much more vigilant in the future. That can only mean better products for the consumer.
Any news/rumors about STX production -- did it start, what the capacity will be? Anyone knows how much space will be on the back seat? Will it be like a tiny back seat in extended cabs pick-ups or will it be a more or less normal size, like in Forester?
Dennis: good one. This has now become the humor thread! Any more Aztec jokes?
Thanks for the review, Ramon, we were forgetting where we were!
Bob: Once again, unless the Jag has traction and stability control, the LL Bean can be had for less. Am I the only consumer who compares apples-to-apples (the answer might be yes)?
I'm getting my lawyers! We are heading over to Bob's house with the Rev. Jesse Jackson for a day of "No Justice, No Peace rally!" Then we'll head to MI to the Ford headquarters... Haaaa
My '91 escort experience has been traumatic, that is why I act this way, it's really not my fault, or was it cause my mom beat me?
People use many criteria when shopping for cars, some compare feature for feature, some just use their emotions. When we bought our Forester, my wife was undecided what type of vehicle she wanted so we ended up looking at VW Jetta, Mitsubishi Galant, Mercury Sable, Dodge 1500 Pickup, Honda CRV, and Rav 4. Talk about a wild set of choices. If the Escape had been available we would have looked at it also.
Can't help it; I get a sinking feeling when I see GM appropriating Subaru's assets into their core brands. Next step will be for something from GM to head into Subaru's parts bin, and then we'll be trapped in a debate like we just finished on Fords and Tributes and Jags, etc. Just can't shake that sinking feeling about this GM shadow ...
It's owned 49% by GM, but they haven't managed to mess up anything yet. We use GM Radiators, and Delphi electronics for engine computers, and an outstanding GM designed Auto-Tranny. So far so good, and they've owned Isuzu for a number of years.
I have long been a critic of GM, especially its styling. However, recently I've seen some glimmer of hope.
The full-size GM trucks, while visually unappealing to me, have gotten some very good writeups from the automotive press. If I were in the market for a full-size pickup/SUV, they would be my first choice.
The jury's still out on SAAB. I haven't been impressed so far by what I've seen.
Some of GM's "most recent" concept cars/trucks have a number of interesting features, and look promising. No, question, the Aztec should never have happened. I do like the new Caddy concept vehicles.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see (and hope) as to Subaru's fate.
I do get a feeling that the decisionmakers at GM finally have realized that many of their products are dull, and are out to change that image. If that's true, that's good news. I just hope they can pull it off.
X-Types: where in the world, besides price, do these vehicles compare to ANY Outback? The GT is the Subie model that comes closest to appealing to an X-Type buyer. (Hey! Maybe this will prompt Subaru to push out a hotter GT version sooner -hope-hope!)
F-ords: I grew up riding around in Studebakers, then Fords. My first car was a Ford. In 30 years of driving I have NEVER driven a Ford that was intrinsically unsafe; in that same time I have driven several GM and Chrysler products that were. What good is reliability if you can't trust the brakes to stop the car even when it is brand new? Fords are fine cars. Enough Ford-bashing, enough Ford-bashing, enough Ford-bashing.
I mentioned the Jag X-Type because it is AWD, and is supposed(?) to be priced within eyesight of the VDC. There is rumor that there may also be a wagon forthcoming. That's the connection.
I agree, It's a bit of a stretch. However if it is priced within $5K of the VDC, I'm sure some folks will look at the Jag. Hey... I could be wrong. It won't be the first (or last) time.
I think GM's new 24 valve DOHC inline six is pretty cool. There was a firebreathing version of it fielded by the GM Performance Parts team in a GMC envoy that took first in class at this year's Pikes Peak Hillclimb.
Most GM products are pretty laughable, especially their build quality. Some models are decent, and some of their powertrains are really awesome.
When I was a kid, my next door neighbor had a silver 1950 Studebaker Land Cruiser with the torpedo nose. I thought it was one of the neatest cars ever!
The neighbor on the other side of our house had a black 1940 Mercury 4-door fastback.
The first car I ever remember (my dad's) was a black 1941 Buick Special 2-door fastback.
The first vehicle I learned to drive, when I was 12, was my uncle's 1941 Chevy farm stake truck. It had a foot starter and a crash box - no syncros! I remember getting it stuck out in the fields, and spraying my uncle, and others with loads of cow dung, from the rear tires, as they tried to get me unstuck! Ah, great fun!
Though it's probably time to let the debate die, I do have to say that my old Ford ('84 Thunderbird) never had any transmission problems. I can't honestly say that it was wholly trouble-free, though. It was plagued by intermittent and rather mysterious electrical system problems. Nonetheless, I truly liked the T-Bird, and it's not altogether impossible that I might still own that car -- probably not as my main transportation, though -- had it not been rear-ended and totaled by a drunken sorority girl in a Mustang (those dang Fords again!). Now, GMs are a whole other matter. The only Chevy I owned ('79 Chevy Malibu) was a short-lived, mechanical disaster that left me with a extreme distrust of GM products, other than Saturns. A partnership between GM and Subaru makes me a little nervous.
The New York Times has a comparison of 5 small SUVs, including the Forester, in this Sunday's editions. Rather controversial to my mind, because it says mostly nice things about the Forester, but still only ranks it at 3rd or 4th, just ahead of the Honda CRV. It puts the Ford Escape at the top (with only a brief mention of the recalls that is buried, oddly enough, in one of the RAV4 capsule reviews), the redesigned RAV4 second, and the new Hyundai Santa Fe either just ahead of or tied with the Forester. Overall, the writers seem to have a bias toward brand-new or heavily redesigned models over older ones, and I suspect the Hyundai got bonus points for simply being better than their original low expectations. On the NYT Web site, the package is split rather awkwardly into three parts: Short intro and overview: http://www.nytimes.com/library/auto/wheels/111200auto.html One NYT auto writer's reviews and rankings: http://www.nytimes.com/library/auto/wheels/111200auto-jenson.html Another NYT auto writer's reviews and rankings: http://www.nytimes.com/library/auto/wheels/111200auto-cobb.html
every article I've seen about the Escape has, at the very least, implied that the Escape (and Tribute) are at the head of the class.
In theory it sounds about right. In reality, I think it will be a different story. There are too many problems with these vehicles. Maybe when these things get sorted out... But by then, there will be a new Forester and CRV... and the debate begins again.
Anybody who thinks we've had some long, drawn out, and inane discussions here; I say turn on the news, and listen to some (any) of discussions regarding the voting in Florida.
Predicting is always dangerous - but fun. Here's what I think "could" happen with Subaru in 2002:
1. Outback sedan will get H-6 engine.
2. 2.5 engine will get a power boost to around 180 hp. This is just a gut feeling with nothing to back it up. If the soon-to-be-announced RS (or RX) 2.5 gets a power boost, you can bet other 2.5 models will also get it. Another possibility is that since the Impreza is to be Subaru's "performance" line, that only other "performance-oriented" 2.5 models would get the power boost - Legacy GT and Forester S models.
3. Outback Sport? This could be interesting. Originally the Impreza Outback/Outback Sport was the premium Impreza. With the advent of the RS 2.5, and now the WRX, that is no longer the case. Personally I think that a Impreza-based Outback has always been an odd marketing situation for Subaru. It will be even more so for 2002.
I don't think the Outback Sport will disappear, but it could be moved over to the Legacy Outback lineup instead, with - cloth seats, no moonroof, but with the H-6 in both automatic and manual transmissions.
4. My gut feeling says that the Legacy GT will not get the H-6 for 2002. Maybe 2003, and with a high-output version?
5. Legacy L will carry on as is. Same with Forester, but with daytime running lights. Possible power boost (?) for both models.
6. In Japan the WRX is available with an 4-speed automatic with tiptronic, and VDC. I expect to see that combo also available here in the USA. I can't see Subaru not offering a automatic in this vehicle here in the States.
If that happens, I can see that same tiptronic automatic and VDC going in the 2002 Legacy GT. I also think there is an outside chance that the GT could receive the WRX engine.
I certainly hope you are right about the Outback Sedan H6 VDC. The same features (radio, auto climate, etc.) as the Outback Wagon, but in the sedan body. If Subaru makes that available as a 2001.5 model (in February) even better. Carl's Subaru know they must keep me the first one.
All the auto guys use outside parts. Subaru let GM buy 20% of it because it felt it was too small to do every bit of technology itself, it was sharing with Nissan (until Nissan got itself into trouble and allied with Renault). Subaru still calls the shots with its suppliers, Subaru controls the quality standards. I also happen to think GM will get alot from their deal with Subaru and they need it. They slipped from 50% market share to under 30% and it is still dropping! However, there is some other news. Daewoo has gone into bankruptcy, Chrysler has really been hurt by being acquired by Daimler, it should be very interesting.
I also agree that the auto guys seem to rank the cars by 1) how much horsepower it has... 2) how new it is. I don't think the average auto reviewer cares at all about reliability because they only have a car for a week or two and they then get another demo.. these guys never have to get a car fixed and therefore don't appreciate the expense and aggravation that it entails.
On saturday I was watching Motor Weeks 20th anniversary show, they were talking about car performance. They had one of the musslecars from 1980 (A Camaro or whatever) and it did the 1/4 mile in 17.8 seconds... Today a 3 cyl Honda Insight does it in 1 second over that. This reinforces my opinion that I am not alone in thinking that the 4 cyl Subaru's are not underpowered. (I know on this board that may be a minority view)
I don't think anybody here thinks the Subaru 2.5 H-4 is underpowered. In fact, the horsepower per cubic inch is very respectable. That engine in the Impreza and Forester works very well. It has a good power-to-weight ratio.
I think some people, myself included, feel that the 2.5 engine (especially when hooked up to an automatic) is a bit taxed in the "heavier" Outback models. Some Outback wagons are "almost" as heavy as a typical full-size American sedan, which would have a six cylinder engine ranging from 3.3 - 3.8 liters. That's a lot weight for a four cylinder engine to push around.
I agree with Bob about the underpowered issue, although I would phrase it more strongly than "a bit taxed."
I'm surprised that the extra weight hasn't give the Subaru Legacy a better NHTSA crash rating, only 4 stars each for driver and front passenger, compared to 5 stars for the Passat (one of the Soob's main competitors), for example.
Auto World Weekly also lists the cargo volume of the Soob as being over 12% smaller than the Passat. I'm surprised -- they seemed reasonably equivalent to me.
When I test drove a Legacy GT wagon, which I had my deposit in hand to buy, it let me down. I drove it myself, worked great. Then I put 4 guys + me in the car and it couldn't get out of it's own way. I thought that it was quite embarassing when it is supposed to be a 5 seater that it was straining (and this on completely flat ground) That's how I ended up with the V6 Trooper. Had the VDC/LL Bean been around, or even better an H6 GT it would have been a much much closer call.
I was catching up with my reading when I came across your LL Bean review. I actually just test drove the VDC wagon myself and wasn't all that thrilled with it's performance. The H-6 is more powerful on paper, but it didn't feel like a whole lot more when driving. I was expecting more "Wow" for a 32K vehicle.
Okay, I've been having a very productive week. Just today, my brother's VDC came in to a local Subaru so we went to take a look at it. The dealer had just received a bunch of H6s -- about 7 LL Beans and 3 VDCs.
From the outside the vehicle looks like any OB. Only on the front and back are they any indication of the H6 underneath the hood. Also, VDC badges are on both sides of the car.
Popped open the hood and there it was. The H6 engine fills pretty much the entire engine bay, partly due to the plastic cover on the top. The bigger air intake was most noticeable.
Inside the vehicle, everything was pretty similar to an OB limited except for the very nice wood-trim steering wheel and McIntosh stereo. The steering wheel felt very good in my hands. The wood has a nice smooth feel to it but offered quite a bit of grip. The stereo also was sweet. Probably one of the best sounding stock stereos I've heard.
Now for performance. I took the VDC on 3 mile drive on local roads and freeway. Starting off, you can notice that there is more low end torque compared the the H4. Not neck snapping in anyway, but smooth.
Once out of the parking lot, I tried giving it more gas. While there was defintely more power compared to an H4 OB, it wasn't quite at the level I expected it to be. While the H4 is probably underpowered for the OB, the H6 feels like it's just adequate -- not a rocket by any means. My brother commented that it felt like this should be the base engine for the OBs. I was a bit disappointed to be honest.
Even with the increased HP and torque, the H6 still needed to be revved to 3,500RPM for it to start to kick in. Unfortunatley, that was often accompanied with sharp downshifts in the auto tranny and then H6 winding up the RPMs a bit noisily -- not something I would want in a vehicle that costs over $30K. Given the competition, I think Subaru seriously needs to mate the H6 to a 5-speed auto to allow for smoother shifts.
As for handling and roadfeel, the VDC wagon felt very sure footed and cornered well. I couldn't drive it hard enough to really feel the difference of VTD and VDC but it seemed to drive a bit more secure than the standard OBs.
Bottom line, while the H6 clearly offers more power than the H4, it isn't as big as one would expect. Probably more smoother and a bit quicker, but based on my limited drive, not a whole lot. The biggest turnoff was the transmission that keept downshifting whenever I needed a little more power. The biggest plus of the VDC wagon in my view isn't the H6, but the VDC.
If I were in the market today, I'd see what Subaru does with the H6 for the GT wagon. In the meantime, I think the H4 OBs are going to be a great buy at thousands less.
Well, I'm back from my week-long trip in Japan. As any good Subaru enthusiast would do, I was able to check out the new Impreza at a local Subaru Showroom. For anyone familiar with Tokyo, Subaru owns a building across from the west entrance of Shinjuku Station. On the first floor of the building is a small showroom. They have every product brochure there so it's a convenient place to stop by without getting hounded by salespeople.
The showroom featured the new Impreza wagon and WRX all souped up for rally use. Unfortuantely, I could only sit in the Impreza wagon.
First impression -- the front end was much to my dismay, even uglier in person than on the photos. The rounded nose and bulging headlights were not very attractive to say the least. I think the WRX sedan would look better since it has slightly more aggressive ground effects and fog lights to draw attention away from the "ovalness" of the headlights.
Other than the front, everything else looked good. From the side, the lines are crisper and sharper. From the back, I liked how the rear tailights angle upwards towards the corners -- gave it a more aggressive look.
Inside the vehicle -- Overall build quality seemed much more upscale. A tasteful amount of a silver metallic metal (brush finished, not shiny) was used around console and dash. Even the gauges had a little metal around them. The switches, knobs and handles all seemed to be more refined that that in the current Imprezas.
Overall inside space looked about the same. While the size was the same, the interior fabric also seemed to have been upgraded. It came in a combination of black and dark grey.
Anyway, I was able to snatch a whole stack of pamphlets (Legacy, Impreza and Forester) including the promotional video they have for the Impreza. Let me know if there's anything you'd like to know about in particular.
"Adequate". C'mon folks, I thought we had voted on it and that was the word we agreed on to describe the power of the 2.5L H4 in the Legacy. Please don't tell me we need a recount ;-p
Paisan, I've driven my Legacy with 4 grown adults lots of times and it goes almost as well as it does with just me in the car - which is to say, "adequate". (I personally believe the acceleration with the 5-speed reaches "spirited" territory.) I also drove it across the country, both ways, loaded to the gills with all the stuff I needed for a 4-month stay. On that trip the car was not only "spririted" but felt right at home, humping all that gear up and over the Appalachians, the Rockies, the Bighorns, the Black Hills, and the Sierra Nevada. No problem passing, no problem accelerating up hills. I was trouncing all those monster SUV's on the climb to Tahoe - what a kick! None of this even mentions the fact that the A4 1.8 Quattro has the same power as the Subie (it felt like less to me during my test drive), that it needs a turbo to do it - and no one dares call that an underpowered car. This Subie power thing is more of an image thing, IMHO.
So - the 2.5L Legacy is anything but underpowered (although of course another 50-100 hp would not be frowned upon by yrs trly!) Your experience is the odd voice, so I'm left to assume that either you forgot to release the handbrake or else the dealer hooked their safety anchor onto the car. You know, the one they use when they fear that the driver is going to go out and thrash the car. (Oops, was that a secret?)
The other thing prospective buyers should know is that Subies have a reputation for "loosening up" over the first few thousand miles. I know mine did; the gas mileage improved dramatically and the shifting is much smoother and less notchy. I'd be really interested to see the results of a before and after acceleration test after one of those long term tests the car mags do.
In short, Legacy offers great bang for the buck - with more than enough bang.
I drove 2 2000 Legacy GT wagons off the lot, because I thought there was something wrong with the car. Perhaps it was 5 "paisan adults" not average adults. Perhaps it was cause they were brand new. And I personally know my dealer so they didn't de-tune it for the test drive. I could only imagine if I put a 2000lb boat, and camping gear in there what would have happened to the acceleration. (my dad's '97 Legacy L 2.2l had more pep than these cars) which I thought was kinda strange. Now don't get me wrong, once I was moving 60-65mph it was fine, but most of my driving is spirited city driving where 0-30 tells the tale, so other's results may vary... Just my opinion...
Comments
Don't get me wrong, both are nice, but why bother?
Get something different, that meets other needs. A wagon has the space, the roof rack, the towing capability.
Look at our fleet: we have a 626 V6 sedan for basic chores, a Forester sport/cute for hauling and versatility, and a Miata for fair weather fun. Each serves its own purpose well.
They're all fine cars you've listed, but any wagon will triple the amount of utility you'll get out of it.
-juice
Bob
-mike
-juice
subarus -- 5 years experience--loved them all, absolutely amazed at the bad-weather roadability (on one trip to Lansing from St. Louis, the weather was so bad Michiganders were doing 20 mph and I was doing a comfortable 45). Also safe -- my wife totaled an OB three months after purchase (another premature death for one of her cars) and she merely walked away and called 911. Subarus used to be intrusively loud -- 2000's have quieted down. Power -- more with Hondas, but with a 5 sp. subartu much more fun.
Traction control vs AWD -- no comparison: with AWD you get real TRACTION. With traction control, all you get is the elimination of wheelspin as far as I'm concerned.
Go with the OB -- you'll love it, it will grow on you; you will become a member of the growing Subaru cult. Go with the Honda -- and you'll be pleased but bored. And everytime it rains, you'll wish for the Subaru.
Bob
I'm with you both! As a former Escort owner I wholeheartedly share Paisan's Ford-trashing attitude. Really, the car is dead since 1993,but is was such a lemon, I just cannot get over it.
But I also think that temp gauge in LLB as described by Bob is silly... and sometimes a small silly thing can ruin the whole experience.
Ok, peace?
p.s. Bob I liked your line "you win"... if only politicians could say the same, instead of threatening to sue each other.
Dennis)
Here you go. Another review of the H6 Outback. I think I jsut saw a commercial for it too in Canada.
I think the out-the-door prices could(?) make folks think twice for those AWD-oriented customers.
It's also rumored that Jaguar may offer an X-Type wagon down the road. My guess is that it would be more expensive than the sedan when (and if) it debuts.
I think all this recent attention for AWD is good. It will certainly make Subaru sharpen their focus - which will be good for all of us.
Bob
I am concerned with all the recent recalls. I do, however, think that there will be a silver lining to all the recalls. I'm certain Ford (and others) will be much more vigilant in the future. That can only mean better products for the consumer.
That's all I'm going to say on the subject.
Bob
Thanks for the review, Ramon, we were forgetting where we were!
Bob: Once again, unless the Jag has traction and stability control, the LL Bean can be had for less. Am I the only consumer who compares apples-to-apples (the answer might be yes)?
-juice
Bob
My '91 escort experience has been traumatic, that is why I act this way, it's really not my fault, or was it cause my mom beat me?
I'll try to limit my FORD bashing in the future!
-mike
I looked at the RAV4, CR-V, Accord, Passat, Outback, Durango, and Forester. Can you imagine two vehicles more different than a Durango and an Accord?
The Forester brought the biggest smile to my face. I knew nothing about its reliability, safety record, or all the media praise.
-juice
Bob
It'll up to us to evaluate and report quality issues. Keep your eyes and ears peeled.
-juice
-mike
The full-size GM trucks, while visually unappealing to me, have gotten some very good writeups from the automotive press. If I were in the market for a full-size pickup/SUV, they would be my first choice.
The jury's still out on SAAB. I haven't been impressed so far by what I've seen.
Some of GM's "most recent" concept cars/trucks have a number of interesting features, and look promising. No, question, the Aztec should never have happened. I do like the new Caddy concept vehicles.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see (and hope) as to Subaru's fate.
I do get a feeling that the decisionmakers at GM finally have realized that many of their products are dull, and are out to change that image. If that's true, that's good news. I just hope they can pull it off.
Bob
F-ords: I grew up riding around in Studebakers, then Fords. My first car was a Ford. In 30 years of driving I have NEVER driven a Ford that was intrinsically unsafe; in that same time I have driven several GM and Chrysler products that were. What good is reliability if you can't trust the brakes to stop the car even when it is brand new? Fords are fine cars. Enough Ford-bashing, enough Ford-bashing, enough Ford-bashing.
S-ubaru: the topic of these forums. Please!
-wdb
I agree, It's a bit of a stretch. However if it is priced within $5K of the VDC, I'm sure some folks will look at the Jag. Hey... I could be wrong. It won't be the first (or last) time.
Bob
Most GM products are pretty laughable, especially their build quality. Some models are decent, and some of their powertrains are really awesome.
-Colin
The neighbor on the other side of our house had a black 1940 Mercury 4-door fastback.
The first car I ever remember (my dad's) was a black 1941 Buick Special 2-door fastback.
The first vehicle I learned to drive, when I was 12, was my uncle's 1941 Chevy farm stake truck. It had a foot starter and a crash box - no syncros! I remember getting it stuck out in the fields, and spraying my uncle, and others with loads of cow dung, from the rear tires, as they tried to get me unstuck! Ah, great fun!
God, do I feel old!
Bob
Just click on the SEMA link. There are lots of neat vehicles on display.
Bob
http://www.wieck.com/public/index.html
Now, GMs are a whole other matter. The only Chevy I owned ('79 Chevy Malibu) was a short-lived, mechanical disaster that left me with a extreme distrust of GM products, other than Saturns. A partnership between GM and Subaru makes me a little nervous.
Overall, the writers seem to have a bias toward brand-new or heavily redesigned models over older ones, and I suspect the Hyundai got bonus points for simply being better than their original low expectations.
On the NYT Web site, the package is split rather awkwardly into three parts:
Short intro and overview:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/auto/wheels/111200auto.html
One NYT auto writer's reviews and rankings:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/auto/wheels/111200auto-jenson.html
Another NYT auto writer's reviews and rankings:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/auto/wheels/111200auto-cobb.html
In theory it sounds about right. In reality, I think it will be a different story. There are too many problems with these vehicles. Maybe when these things get sorted out... But by then, there will be a new Forester and CRV... and the debate begins again.
Bob
I would consider ourselves lucky.
Bob
1.
Outback sedan will get H-6 engine.
2.
2.5 engine will get a power boost to around 180 hp. This is just a gut feeling with nothing to back it up. If the soon-to-be-announced RS (or RX) 2.5 gets a power boost, you can bet other 2.5 models will also get it. Another possibility is that since the Impreza is to be Subaru's "performance" line, that only other "performance-oriented" 2.5 models would get the power boost - Legacy GT and Forester S models.
3.
Outback Sport? This could be interesting. Originally the Impreza Outback/Outback Sport was the premium Impreza. With the advent of the RS 2.5, and now the WRX, that is no longer the case. Personally I think that a Impreza-based Outback has always been an odd marketing situation for Subaru. It will be even more so for 2002.
I don't think the Outback Sport will disappear, but it could be moved over to the Legacy Outback lineup instead, with - cloth seats, no moonroof, but with the H-6 in both automatic and manual transmissions.
4.
My gut feeling says that the Legacy GT will not get the H-6 for 2002. Maybe 2003, and with a high-output version?
5.
Legacy L will carry on as is. Same with Forester, but with daytime running lights. Possible power boost (?) for both models.
Interesting food for thought!
Bob
In Japan the WRX is available with an 4-speed automatic with tiptronic, and VDC. I expect to see that combo also available here in the USA. I can't see Subaru not offering a automatic in this vehicle here in the States.
If that happens, I can see that same tiptronic automatic and VDC going in the 2002 Legacy GT. I also think there is an outside chance that the GT could receive the WRX engine.
Bob
I certainly hope you are right about the Outback Sedan H6 VDC. The same features (radio, auto climate, etc.) as the Outback Wagon, but in the sedan body. If Subaru makes that available as a 2001.5 model (in February) even better. Carl's Subaru know they must keep me the first one.
Daniel
Bob
Frank
Frank
I think some people, myself included, feel that the 2.5 engine (especially when hooked up to an automatic) is a bit taxed in the "heavier" Outback models. Some Outback wagons are "almost" as heavy as a typical full-size American sedan, which would have a six cylinder engine ranging from 3.3 - 3.8 liters. That's a lot weight for a four cylinder engine to push around.
Bob
I'm surprised that the extra weight hasn't give the Subaru Legacy a better NHTSA crash rating, only 4 stars each for driver and front passenger, compared to 5 stars for the Passat (one of the Soob's main competitors), for example.
Auto World Weekly also lists the cargo volume of the Soob as being over 12% smaller than the Passat. I'm surprised -- they seemed reasonably equivalent to me.
Randy
-mike
I was catching up with my reading when I came across your LL Bean review. I actually just test drove the VDC wagon myself and wasn't all that thrilled with it's performance. The H-6 is more powerful on paper, but it didn't feel like a whole lot more when driving. I was expecting more "Wow" for a 32K vehicle.
Ken
Just today, my brother's VDC came in to a local
Subaru so we went to take a look at it. The dealer
had just received a bunch of H6s -- about 7 LL
Beans and 3 VDCs.
From the outside the vehicle looks like any OB.
Only on the front and back are they any indication
of the H6 underneath the hood. Also, VDC badges
are on both sides of the car.
Popped open the hood and there it was. The H6
engine fills pretty much the entire engine bay,
partly due to the plastic cover on the top. The
bigger air intake was most noticeable.
Inside the vehicle, everything was pretty similar
to an OB limited except for the very nice wood-trim
steering wheel and McIntosh stereo. The steering
wheel felt very good in my hands. The wood has a
nice smooth feel to it but offered quite a bit of
grip. The stereo also was sweet. Probably one of
the best sounding stock stereos I've heard.
Now for performance. I took the VDC on 3 mile
drive on local roads and freeway. Starting off,
you can notice that there is more low end torque
compared the the H4. Not neck snapping in anyway,
but smooth.
Once out of the parking lot, I tried giving it
more gas. While there was defintely more power
compared to an H4 OB, it wasn't quite at the level
I expected it to be. While the H4 is probably
underpowered for the OB, the H6 feels like it's
just adequate -- not a rocket by any means. My
brother commented that it felt like this should be
the base engine for the OBs. I was a bit
disappointed to be honest.
Even with the increased HP and torque, the H6
still needed to be revved to 3,500RPM for it to
start to kick in. Unfortunatley, that was often
accompanied with sharp downshifts in the auto
tranny and then H6 winding up the RPMs a bit
noisily -- not something I would want in a vehicle
that costs over $30K. Given the competition, I
think Subaru seriously needs to mate the H6 to a
5-speed auto to allow for smoother shifts.
As for handling and roadfeel, the VDC wagon felt
very sure footed and cornered well. I couldn't
drive it hard enough to really feel the difference
of VTD and VDC but it seemed to drive a bit more
secure than the standard OBs.
Bottom line, while the H6 clearly offers more
power than the H4, it isn't as big as one would
expect. Probably more smoother and a bit quicker,
but based on my limited drive, not a whole lot.
The biggest turnoff was the transmission that keept
downshifting whenever I needed a little more
power. The biggest plus of the VDC wagon in my
view isn't the H6, but the VDC.
If I were in the market today, I'd see what Subaru
does with the H6 for the GT wagon. In the
meantime, I think the H4 OBs are going to be a
great buy at thousands less.
Ken
As any good Subaru enthusiast would do, I was able
to check out the new Impreza at a local Subaru
Showroom. For anyone familiar with Tokyo, Subaru
owns a building across from the west entrance of
Shinjuku Station. On the first floor of the
building is a small showroom. They have every
product brochure there so it's a convenient place
to stop by without getting hounded by salespeople.
The showroom featured the new Impreza wagon and
WRX all souped up for rally use. Unfortuantely, I
could only sit in the Impreza wagon.
First impression -- the front end was much to my
dismay, even uglier in person than on the photos.
The rounded nose and bulging headlights were not
very attractive to say the least. I think the WRX
sedan would look better since it has slightly more
aggressive ground effects and fog lights to draw
attention away from the "ovalness" of the
headlights.
Other than the front, everything else looked good.
From the side, the lines are crisper and sharper.
From the back, I liked how the rear tailights
angle upwards towards the corners -- gave it a more
aggressive look.
Inside the vehicle -- Overall build quality seemed
much more upscale. A tasteful amount of a silver
metallic metal (brush finished, not shiny) was used
around console and dash. Even the gauges had a
little metal around them. The switches, knobs and
handles all seemed to be more refined that that in
the current Imprezas.
Overall inside space looked about the same. While
the size was the same, the interior fabric also
seemed to have been upgraded. It came in a
combination of black and dark grey.
Anyway, I was able to snatch a whole stack of
pamphlets (Legacy, Impreza and Forester) including
the promotional video they have for the Impreza.
Let me know if there's anything you'd like to know
about in particular.
Ken
Paisan, I've driven my Legacy with 4 grown adults lots of times and it goes almost as well as it does with just me in the car - which is to say, "adequate". (I personally believe the acceleration with the 5-speed reaches "spirited" territory.) I also drove it across the country, both ways, loaded to the gills with all the stuff I needed for a 4-month stay. On that trip the car was not only "spririted" but felt right at home, humping all that gear up and over the Appalachians, the Rockies, the Bighorns, the Black Hills, and the Sierra Nevada. No problem passing, no problem accelerating up hills. I was trouncing all those monster SUV's on the climb to Tahoe - what a kick! None of this even mentions the fact that the A4 1.8 Quattro has the same power as the Subie (it felt like less to me during my test drive), that it needs a turbo to do it - and no one dares call that an underpowered car. This Subie power thing is more of an image thing, IMHO.
So - the 2.5L Legacy is anything but underpowered (although of course another 50-100 hp would not be frowned upon by yrs trly!) Your experience is the odd voice, so I'm left to assume that either you forgot to release the handbrake or else the dealer hooked their safety anchor onto the car. You know, the one they use when they fear that the driver is going to go out and thrash the car. (Oops, was that a secret?)
The other thing prospective buyers should know is that Subies have a reputation for "loosening up" over the first few thousand miles. I know mine did; the gas mileage improved dramatically and the shifting is much smoother and less notchy. I'd be really interested to see the results of a before and after acceleration test after one of those long term tests the car mags do.
In short, Legacy offers great bang for the buck - with more than enough bang.
Regards,
-wdb
-mike