Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

bsvoller

Thanks for the clarification. I still don't see the trailer brake issue as that big a deal, but my sense of cost is, of course, colored by the fact that we live in Colorado. YMMV.

For this region, that $600 trailer is a red herring IMHO, because practically speaking it should be offered at twice that and include the brakes you're gonna have to add... (speaking from my perspective, of course). Wasn't it Toyota's Rav4 that was marketed without a rear bumper ? Kind of brings that to mind...

I like the idea of heavier duty brakes in a tow package, but I wonder about the relative weight of the tow vehicle to the trailer, and whether you can make that make sense. I suspect, (but not being an engineer, I'll have to leave it at that), that you rapidly get to where the tow vehicle doesn't have enough mass to safely control the trailer in some situations (like a steep downgrade in slippery conditions) without having a braking effort at the trailer wheels.

Perhaps the Forester in its current incarnation is close enough to the engineering limit not to warrant a beefier tow package in practice ?

I've had apparently knowledgable people caution me about towing too big a load with a short wheelbase vehicle, because you don't have enough leverage via the tow vehicle's wheelbase to suppress sway in high cross-winds (which we also get here). While I can't comment, really, as to the veracity of their concerns, it makes some sense to me. I wouldn't tow a tall trailer behind a Forester for that reason.

I guess what I'm driving at here is that the Forester might have some limitations due to the priorities that were met and the compromises that were struck at design time.

rsholland

I too would want brakes. Most, if not all of my towing, is on flat land.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against trailer brakes at all. In fact, I favor them. What keeps me on this discussion is that, where I live (Maryland), you can't find a small utility trailer with brakes that's rated at only 2000 pounds. Maryland doesn't require brakes on any trailer under a 3000 pound rating, so they don't exist. When I mention adding brakes to something that small, the trailer dealers just look at you kind of funny.

Bob

rsholland

no more brake discussion. I've worn out my welcome...

Bob

paisan

Buy a heavier one. You could do that, just don't overload it. For instance my dad's boat trailer is rated at 3500lbs, but with his old K-car we didn't tow a boat over 2000lbs on it (w/o brakes too ) Just be prudent in your towing and you'll be fine.

-mike

paisan

Yes Colin, the newer 91 XT6 is an MT, just registerd it after wrecking the 88 XT6 AT. The 91 isn't ready for auto-x yet still needs:

PS pump fixed/replaced
Clutch (the one in there is slipping)
Air-suspension converted over to std suspension

So for now I'm driving Zephyr's RS, I didn't hurt the clutch too much, hopefully. My biggest problem was going into the slalom after a 3rd gear sweeping turn, going down into 2nd w/o blipping the throttle caused me to violently slow down, but by my last run I had that sorta sorted out.

-mike

tincup47

Just to give you an idea of what other manufacturers do, I looked up the recommendations for Land Rovers.
Range Rover
1,650 lbs unbraked on road
1,100 lbs unbraked off road
6,500 lbs braked Hi-Range on road
7,700 lbs braked Lo-Range on Road
2,200 lbs braked Lo-Range off road Hi or Lo Range

Discovery
1,650 lbs unbraked on or off road
5,500 lbs braked Hi-Range on road
7,700 lbs braked Lo-Range on road
2,200 lbs braked off-road Hi or Lo Range

Freelander
1,650 lbs unbraked
2,500 lbs braked

paisan

So they all are in the 1500 range (give or take) for unbraked loads? That seems consisent with the 1500lb CA rating.

-mike

rsholland

I like what Land Rover does in terms of giving you "complete" information. I can't think any other brand, off hand, that gives you that much information as to towing. That's great!

Bob

ateixeira

Out of curiosity, is all that info readily available, or did you use your insider's point of view to obtain it? Just curious.

paisan: there had to be a learning curve. I guess depending on the course, if a lot of shifting is required you'd be at an inherent disadvantage just because the others are used to shifting.

Meanwhile, I'm sure both your hands are hanging on for dear life! I know mine were! ;-)

-juice

tincup47

All info came from sales brochures...also listed tongue weights

rsholland

I think all that info is on the specs page in the LR brochures? Chuck am I right? Land Rover is very complete in term of information disclosure as I recall.

Bob

rsholland

Chuck beat me to the punch...

Bob

fibber2

Sounds like some misunderstanding about the virtues of disk brakes, so I will throw in my $.02

Disk brakes:
Most cars use single piston disks, with a full sliding caliper providing the pressure to the other side. Better designs use two, or even 4 pistons for the most even application of force. In either way, pressure on the pad is pretty consistent and proportional to fluid pressure. The open design, large mass, etc. helps with shedding heat, reducing fade. ABS works better as they can be cycled faster.

Drums:
As the piston pushes outward at the top of the shoe mounts, the movement is in a sweeping motion, not perpendicular. Wear is uneven, and much of the surface area of the shoe never contacts the drum. The star gear at the bottom only occasionally readjusts the pivot point, reestablishing sweep area. And the natural tendancy of the rotating contact area to 'pull-in' / 'push-out' results in one shoe doing more work than the other (sorry, a difficult concept to verbalize). Fade is greater as they do not shed internal build up of heat, and they cannot 'squeegee' out water.

In the case of front brakes, disks might even be cheaper (less parts) to produce & assemble, and are certainly more effective as they do most of the 'braking'.

Rear disks get expensive because of the redundant parking brake mini-drum in the center. But from a performance standpoint, it is something I look for when buying a vehicle.

Interestingly enough, rear brakes can indeed be too good. Some mfgs who tried rear disks before ABS and proportioning systems came of age ('80's, early '90's), got into trouble with rear lockup in panic stops.

Steve

lucien2

Auto-x'ed on my new AGXs yesterday. Zowee...like a new car.

ateixeira

Share more in mods, I'd love to hear about them.

-juice

kens

Steve,

Nice write up. Rear discs are also something I look for when I buy a vehicle. That's what led me to fork up the extra $$ for a Forester S.

Ken

lucien2

Remember when I went to BMW CCA track school in the Outback? And remember how impressed I was with my instructor's M Coupe, only to have him tell me how impressed he was with the Outback? He went out and bought one that season, for his gear and the dog. So that's one sale SoA owes me..... :-) Well here is the email I got from him today:

"Well, guess you haven't heard. I have a new 2002 WRX sedan, World Rally Blue, of course! I traded the Outback, and sold the Coupe last week. My girlfriend, Colleen, is selling her 98 M3 (a great car, great price)and has
bought a 2002 Forester S with the big Sunroof!! Our kayaks and bikes and her
dog go in the Forester, I go in the WRX. She liked the Forester enough better than the Outback that we didn't swap her into the Outback. I am more impressed with the Forester every time I am in it.

My WRX is loaded. I got all the fun bells and whistles. I put on the 17" Gold Prodrive P1 wheels (like Makinen's) and a set of Bridgestone S-03s. I talked to the guy that Denise McCluggage mentioned in her Autoweek column (the one about M3 owners getting WRXs). He talked me into Mintex front pads and a Stromung muffler. The turbo spools up a little sooner. I had it at the
track for the first time this past weekend, VIR long course. Yeehaa! And it rained!! Double yeehaa! Car was fantastic, surprised many, including myself. I did 295 miles on the
track."

hypov

wouldn't that be three sales SoA owing you? ;-D

-Dave

wmiller4

I only had my card 14 months before I used my Subaur Point Certificates to buy my 2002 Bean.
Unless they changed the rules you should not have to wait 37 months before you can use the certs to buy a car. I would call MBNA customer service if there is any question. Their number is on the back of the card.

lucien2

including my own! I think that deserves a T-shirt or a Rally cap or something. :-))

hypov

So, if I can get the Eddy Cheever racing team, or just Eddy Cheever, to buy the WRX what would I get? :-D

SoA should put out a promo like recommend someone, and when they buy you get something like... a T-shirt or a Rally cap...or something.
What y'all think?

-Dave

bluesubie

I'm all for it, as long as it applies to prior purchases!

-Dennis

paisan

Pshaw I've sold at least 10-12 @ my dealership.

-mike

kate5000

with so many posts...
Bob's talking about towing...
Paisan's about XT6 and auto-x...
so, what's new?
Pat got a new pooch! Very cute, congrats!

Interesting discussion of discs vs drums. Can I pitch in my female perspective? Discs are better because when I wash wheels, I like to see that shiny disc surface behind the spokes! In comparison, drums are so boring to wash.

ateixeira

Oh yeah, sweetness! Converting Bimmer owners? Into multiple Soobs? You da man!

I'm a big McCluggage fan, too.

I may have to convert my wife - she just got a ticket for 57 in a 35! Gotta dump that V6 and put her in a Legacy L or something, sans H6! Trade off some straight line speed for better handling and grip!

The cop reduced it to 54, and she's going to court to try and avoid points, but I told her to chill out!

-juice

locke2c

Now I'm convinced she's perfect for a huge SUV.

:-P

-Colin

armac13

Be nice! :-)

Ross

ateixeira

Only if we put a 4 cylinder engine in an Excursion. Though that would be an appropriate punishment for her.

-juice

hypov

Juice- why not a two stroke in the Excursion? If she's good aft a month then put a 4 cylinder. [j/k] :-D

-Dave

fibber2

Kate,

How could I have been so lax? Next time I launch into one of my educational talks, I must remember to include the aesthetic implications. The only open question then would be in the ranking of importance. Should that be first, middle or last??? ;-)

Actually, you are very right in this case!!! Nothing beats the look of big, meaty multi-piston calipers and a huge, shiny ventilated disk visible thru open spoke alloy wheels... A standard 9" drum looks wimpy. Could I go as far as calling it a 'manly' look without offending anyone???

Steve

oregonboy

Regarding the MBNA card points... I checked the MBNA site. It looks like they have a "cobranded" card that accumulates points towards LL Bean merchandise. Is that what you were referring to?

What amount of purchases apply to points? Restrictions on purchases?

Similar topic: there used to be a GM credit card that could accumulate $thousands towards GM auto purchases. Any chance of applying that to a Sube purchase?

-james

lucien2

in the gallery.

ateixeira

Subaru won't take the GM card. I think even Saturn doesn't. I'm not sure about Saab and Hummer.

-juice

paisan

If it's a BIG 4cylinder Diesel it would work

-mike

ateixeira

Actually a diesel would be perfect for her. Good off the line grunt, but they run out of steam before you get going too fast!

But nah, diesel is painfully expensive in Potomac. It costs a little more than 93 octane does, even.

-juice

paisan

You get a lot more miles per gallon IIRC.

-mike

c_hunter

I used $400 worth of the Subaru Card coupons on my new LL Bean Outback in December, and had the MBNA card for less than 1 year. I never bothered to read the fine print on the back, though. But anyway, the dealer took the coupons, no problem.

Craig

kate5000

it does not say anything about 37 months... I have Platinum Plus MBNA Subaru card.

cptplt

Just noticed in the latest CR auto issue that Subaru tied Toyota for lowest problems on 01 models of the "Japanese" manufacturers - beating even Honda!

My coupons say on the back
"If 500 points are earned each year, a total of 2000 points (equivalent to a dollar discount of $2000) may be applied to the purchase or lease of a new Subaru vehicle after the 37th month"

c_hunter

Yeah, I remember reading that statement, but I took it to mean that if you earned 500 points a year for four billing years, you could apply 2000 points to a new vehicle. There's nothing there that hints at a requirement at all. The earliest you could accumulate 2000 points would be 37 months (3 years x 500 max plus one billing cycle into the next year). You'd have to spend big bucks in the 37th month to earn 500 points though!

Craig

subaru_team

I finally get some training on the 2K3 Forester this morning! Yippeee. I'll let you know my impressions after I get home (busy calendar today). If you have anything in particular you want me to check out, please post ASAP. Off to work I go. This is one of those "I love my job" days.

Patti

fibber2

No come-back?? I am disappointed! I hope I didn't offend you. This is all meant to be in fun...

Steve

p0926

Patti- Check the rear leg room please and let us know your impressions. Also, how much of an improvement are the new cup holders?

-Frank P.

chief1989

I was also interested in the back seat leg room. Also, has the quality of the interior improved? If so, is it by a large margin? And, when is pricing coming out?

Thanks,

Jim

ateixeira

Dennis: did they rate manufacturers overall? I didn't see that. What page?

Patti: anything to check out? Absolutely! Grab all the data you can. If you get a brochure I'd love a copy. I'd like to know everything, wheelbase, ground clearance, rear leg room, cargo capacity, payload, towing capacity, roof rack capacity, date of availability (2.5l and turbo), and pricing.

And if they're handing out free sample, grab one for ME! :-)

-juice

rsholland

Other than what's already been mentioned, are there any surprises? Any new options, or option packages?

Bob

Karen_S

It took awhile, but there is a new survey on the Subaru Community Page. If you have a chance, please take a couple of minutes and check it out.

Thanks!

KarenS
Host
Owners Clubs

rsholland

Sedonia & Impreza bumper tests
Sedonia worst ever tested. Impreza not great either.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020313/ap_on_bi_ge/bumper_tests_1

SUV crash tests
http://www.onetomany.com/jeepnews/indexnoflash.htm

Bob

ateixeira

At least the Impy was the best of the 4 tested. And it's about average, I'm surprised they ranked it Marginal. A list of all small cars tested is here.

Funny that the Wrangler scores better than the Grand Cherokee and the Liberty, both newer designs. Forester and Legacy crush them all, though.

-juice

locke2c

I've always been suspicious of IIHS tests, since insurers have something to gain (premiums) by grading vehicles harshly.

-Colin