American Electric Vehicles

jamesf2

I have been following the ev world for quite a while. As an engineer, with an aggravating mind, I have been totally unimpressed with all commercial hybrids except the proposed Chevy Volt - you better pull this one off GM!
Now, today I saw a blog post in wired news about American Electric Vehicles. I must disclose that I live in Colorado and am always happy to hear about a tech company making it in Colorado but this thing is impressive. They state that the range is 50 miles but it's an open air off road vehicles - not much for aerodynamics there!!!!
The price tag hurts a tad. Maybe I will sell a limb):
It's my first post to this forum but this thing got me pretty excited.
Why no straight up electric forum.

gfr1

I haven't researched all of these sites, so don't know if this article is new, or old, but --.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1351302783/bctid1351300070

gfr

gagrice

Nissan Motor Co. unveiled a new prototype electric vehicle Wednesday with batteries twice as powerful as conventional technology, aiming to take a lead in zero-emission cars.

Japan's third-largest automaker said the front-wheel drive, boxy-shaped car has a newly developed 80 kilowatt motor with advanced lithium-ion batteries installed under the vehicle's floor to avoid taking up space.

The laminated batteries, jointly developed with electronics giant NEC Corp., pack twice the electric power of conventional nickel-metal hydride batteries currently used in hybrid and electric cars, it said.

Nissan aims to start selling an electric car in the United States and Japan in 2010 and the rest of the world in 2012. It will have a new "unique bodystyle" that is not based on any existing model, the company said.



http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080806085901.thpknii3&show_article=1&ima- ge=large

nippononly

this was already a done deal, and that Tesla got the prize? Admittedly, they won't have a volume offering at the current $109,000 asking price, but that's another story! :-P

I would love to see all the Big 6 get involved and offer small electric vehicles that are full-duty (highway-capable), not like these little GEM cars we already have.

The first one to offer such a car for prices comparable to (if not quite as low) same-size gas-powered cars will have a huge hit on their hands, I would think.

But what about supply bottlenecks on batteries? Is Nissan going to run into the same problems with supply that Toyota has with the Prius?

gagrice

Has Tesla delivered to the first customer? Last I heard they were being sued for not paying the people that built the transmission. Also CA passed some law that took funding from Tesla they were counting on. I think they will go into the same book as Tucker.

I think that Mitsubishi is close to delivering an EV also. I agree it will have to be priced right. If it is basic transportation it needs to be under $20k. I like the box design. Always seemed the most practical for everyday use. The first xB was cool. If they had not tried to rape me I would have bought one for a runabout. They are not worth $20k as the dealer thought.

nippononly

I just read yesterday about some retrofit Tesla is doing on the first 40 cars it sold, so yes, I think they must already be in production.

I would love to see Nissan produce an electric version of the Cube. They are bringing over the gas version next year (which may just put the final nail in Scion's coffin) and it would be such a practical car for their first electric model. Seats four adults comfortably, lots of cargo space, gas version only costs $15K. I would bet they could deliver the electric version for an asking price under $20K.

iluvmysephia has been going on for quite some time about the Mitsubishi MIEV (is that the right name?), which is not too far off, from what I have gathered with only limitied interest. Funny that Honda, with working NG and fuel cell cars, not to mention hybrids, has made no mention of plans to develop an electric vehicle based just on household/roadside recharging.

gagrice

There are literally 1000s of people using electric golf carts as their main mode of transportation. Many of the large retirement communities are ideal for that type vehicle. My thought with an open golf cart is what happens when it rains? Or how do you protect your stuff while in shopping? One of those little box cars that could also go out on roads up to 45 MPH would be great. Many of the fancy golf carts are pushing the $20k price tag with lead acid batteries. I think I would prefer the NiMH until the longevity of Li-Ion are proven. Unless they have a long warranty. Which is highly unlikely.

Tesla must be alive and well. Says they are on track to deliver 560 cars this year. They have hired a high powered designer.

We have obtained exclusive information about Franz von Holzhausen's next career move. On Thursday of last week, von Holzhausen resigned from Mazda, where he was Director of Design at the R&D Design Center in Irvine CA, to become the Design Director at Tesla Motors.

"It's going to be an exciting adventure," von Holzhausen told us in an exclusive interview. "I'm looking forward to working at a new startup company that doesn't have the confines of a large OEM."

Tesla will be looking to produce a range of new cars according to the famed designer. While the Tesla Roadster was designed by Lotus, Tesla founder and Chairman Elon Musk is "looking to produce electric vehicles for the masses and wanted to bring design in house."

According to insiders, von Holzhausen was 'cherry picked' for that task.

A graduate from Art Center College of Design, von Holzhausen began his career as Assistant Chief Designer in VW's Design Center California and was involved in various projects from the Concept One to the Microbus. He has also served as Design Manager at General Motors where he was responsible for designing and managing the concept and production design process for the Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky, Chevy SS, and various other GM programs.

tpe

But what about supply bottlenecks on batteries? Is Nissan going to run into the same problems with supply that Toyota has with the Prius?

I think Toyota's battery supply problems are due to them keeping battery production in house and underestimating the demand. They are currently working on doubling their capacity but it will take a couple of years.

gagrice

I suppose I should have named this thread "Who Will make the First Practical EV for the USA".

There are a lot of EVs in our history. A couple came real close. Such as the RAV4 EV and the EV-1.

gagrice

I think the Li-Ion is actually less hassle to build than the NiMH batteries used in all the hybrids. It is a matter of getting the right combination that will last and not overheat with Li-Ion. I would be satisfied with a battery built by NEC. They are a very High end electronics company in Japan. I did not know they were into Li-Ion battery research. They build some of the best Telco gear in the World.

2010 is not that far off. We should see a lot of interesting technology by then.

nippononly

Welll, did the RAV4 EV come close, or did it hit the target?

78 mph top speed, 117 mile range, using NiMH batteries, drove just like their gas counterparts except for the lower top speed, and offered the same interior utility.

Sticker, of course, was $42K, but tax credits at the time brought the real-world price down below $30K. They mainly leased them but they did sell a few.

The EV1 was pretty fab too, but unlike Toyota GM chose not to sell any and to pull them all off the road at lease end and crush them. I still see a RAV4 EV every once in a while. I think their owners loved them, and they must be REALLY loving them now!

The RAV4 EV was pretty practical. You may think that at $30K they were not a good value, but they had practicality in spades.

I can't wait until Nissan brings out the first one that is affordable to all.

gagrice

I think the RAV4 EV was a great example for the others. I think it has all the speed and range needed for most commutes. If you have a commute longer than 50 miles each way, the EV is probably not for you. The battery was and is for those that have them the killer. I think the automakers were probably relieved when CA pulled the mandate for ZEV vehicles Last I read the battery life was about 100,000 miles. Toyota had a replacement cost of $20k. That is a tough sell for the automaker or owner to accept. One poster here looks at it from a per mile basis on battery replacement. With the best economy cars costing about 50 cents per mile over 5 years the 20 cents per mile added by battery deterioration may not be that significant.

1stpik

.... that a company called Baker made and sold electric cars more than 100 years ago. Jay Leno owns one, and drives it occasionally. Any company that presents an electric car today as "new" or "innovative" is just a century behind the curve.

Now, I could credibly argue that if automakers chose to develop electric motors 100 years ago instead of gas/diesel engines, we'd STILL be no better of today than we are with OPEC. Some other cartel would have developed to restrict the supply of electricity. The government would still tax it several times between the producer and the consumer, just like oil and gasoline. And we'd still face an occasional "crisis" during which politicians would seek higher taxes and new powers for themselves.

But maybe the air would be a bit cleaner.

gagrice

You are correct that electric cars and trucks were around 100 years ago. As was the hybrid. Porsche had a racing hybrid. In fact Dr Porsche built his hybrid about 109 years ago. I think if they were practical they would have survived and flourished. I think they faced the same problem then as today. Storing energy.

I think practical means different things to different people. A practical all around EV may still be 20 years in the future. A practical commuter car less than a year. Just as a CNG car is good for commuting, they are not practical to head cross country with.

bumpy

Last I read the battery life was about 100,000 miles. Toyota had a replacement cost of $20k. That is a tough sell for the automaker or owner to accept.

Yeah. I ran the numbers a few years ago for building my own electric car, and the cost to replace the battery pack every 3-5 years (a bigger pack would last longer but cost more up front) was something like 3x the cost of fuel and maintenance on a gas car in that timeframe.

tpe

I don't know which manufacturer will make the first practical EV for the US market but I'm pretty confident it won't be Honda. As far as I can tell they aren't even pursuing an EV that doesn't involve hydrogen fuel cells. The general consensus is that it will be a long time, if ever, for hydrogen to be a practical method for energy storage.

1stpik

"As far as I can tell they aren't even pursuing an EV that doesn't involve hydrogen fuel cells."

I agree. I think Honda has done its thing with gas-electric hybrids (they were one of the first), and they don't want to dump a bunch of R&D and money into more stepping-stone vehicles. They want to leap ahead to the ultimate clean car, that runs on the most plentiful resource in the universe.

I think they're going to drive fuel cell development full speed ahead until it works for enough people that they can sell 'em. Honda wants to be the first company to take the last step in alternative fuel vehicles.

gagrice

Honda wants to be the first company to take the last step in alternative fuel vehicles.

They better get to work. That is a big mountain to climb. That and Nissan has just passed Honda in fuel cell development. I still would not count on them being mainstream for 20 years.

Despite their unsettling X-Trail Fuel Cell Vehicle Nürburgring record run recently, Nissan is making serious developments with a new fuel cell stack with double the power density of the previous generation stack. Additionally, the stack uses half the amount of platinum, a key material, resulting in 35% cost savings. Nissan test prototypes carrying the improved fuel cell stacks will be operational by the end of this year.

August 6, 2008 5:00 PM by Brian Potter

lemko

....beat everybody to the punch!

gagrice

Good looking but much later than the ones from the 1800s.

Between 1832 and 1839 (the exact year is uncertain), Robert Anderson of Scotland invented the first crude electric carriage. A small-scale electric car was designed by Professor Stratingh of Groningen, Holland, and built by his assistant Christopher Becker in 1835. Practical and more successful electric road vehicles were invented by both American Thomas Davenport and Scotsmen Robert Davidson around 1842. Both inventors were the first to use non-rechargeable electric cells. Frenchmen Gaston Plante invented a better storage battery in 1865 and his fellow countrymen Camille Faure improved the storage battery in 1881. This improved-capacity storage battery paved the way for electric vehicles to flourish.

France and Great Britain were the first nations to support the widespread development of electric vehicles in the late 1800s. In 1899, a Belgian built electric racing car called "La Jamais Contente" set a world record for land speed - 68 mph - designed by Camille Jénatzy

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectrica.htm

Mr_Shiftright

Yes I drove the RAV4-EV and it was a totally practical, good performing EV with great acceleration and a range well over 100 miles (a working range I mean, not a limping range).

So I think Toyota has already won this competition.

Used RAV4-EVs regularly sell on eBay for more than their MSRP. The one I drove had about 75,000 miles on the original set of batteries, no problems so far.

As far as I can tell, this "old" EV would outperform the Volt and just about anything else on the road other than the Tesla. And it's a full size truck, too. Looks exactly like a regular RAV-4. Well it IS a regular RAV-4, but not AWD of course.

oregonboy

Used RAV4-EVs regularly sell on eBay for more than their MSRP.

Well, the only one on ebay right now is a completed listing. It got only one bid of $45,000 which did not make the reserve. :surprise:

Somehow I think the seller might have worked something out with the bidder after the auction ended.

2002 Toyota RAV4 EV

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah the one I drove was purchased for $45,000 as well. I think this is about the going rate for a decent one. Pretty good depreciation rate after 6 years :P

Of course the RAV4-EV was not a hybrid, but a pure electric.

The VOLT is I gather a kind of "hybrid" but the gas engine onboard only charges the battery. Have I got that right?

So after the 40 mile range of pure battery power is dissipated, can the little gas engine keep the battery charged while you're running along or do you have to stop to recharge?

GM is claiming the car will come to market in 2010 but car magazines are saying "no way".

Related Story:

VOLT Buyers Already Lining Up

31,000 on a buyer's list is pretty good, given that the car might punch out over $35,000.

PF_Flyer

Everyone is welcome at our weekly chats and EV's are certainly something we can chat about if the mood strikes you!

It's Thursday and that means time again for the longest running chat here in CarSpace, the Subaru Crew! The chat opens at 8:45 pm ET and runs until 10 pm ET. I hope you're able to join us tonight for another enjoyable evening with members of the Crew!
See you there!

tpe

So after the 40 mile range of pure battery power is dissipated, can the little gas engine keep the battery charged while you're running along or do you have to stop to recharge?

A vehicle the size of the Volt would probably be using about 20 kilo-watts if it was traveling down the highway at 80 mph. It doesn't take that big of an engine to generate 20 kW. The Volt is going to have a 1.0L engine, which acts as a generator. There are generators available today no bigger than this that can generate 20 kW.

My personal opinion is that the Volt will be on the market in 2010 but not in big numbers. Maybe a couple thousand, not the 30 thousand that GM is shooting for. As far as I'm concerned that would be wise on GM's part. Allow a relatively small number of buyers to act as your beta testers for the first year or two and limit your liability.

Mr_Shiftright

Are you implying that GM would let buyers do their R&D for them?

I'm shocked...SHOCKED!

All I can say is that this VOLT had better work good....REAL good...right out of the box or GM is going to be making teapots for the government of Turkey.

PF_Flyer

All I can say is that this VOLT had better work good....REAL good...right out of the box or GM is going to be making teapots for the government of Turkey.

They might not be considered for that contract if the Volt fizzles

gagrice

Do you think that GM will build the Volt Here in the US? I know Tesla claimed they were and ended up with the MFG outside the US. I am thinking the Volt will be built in China. No evidence, just a hunch. GM has a big market in China and they need clean cars worse than we do.

Mr_Shiftright

Part of any successful EV venture is going to have to be educating the American public. Among the issues that will have to be addressed in advertising, promo pieces and in the showroom are:

1. fear of being stranded when batteries run out

2. questions on battery pack longevity/warranty

3. safety in a crash

4. rapid obsolescence and its effect on resale value.

gagrice

Americans with long memories of electric vehicles will recall the brief flowering of the Think City, a plastic-bodied Norwegian-built battery car.

Ford bought Think’s parent company, then known as Pivco Industries, for $23 million in 1999. In a burst of optimism, Ford thought it could sell 3,500 to 5,000 vehicles a year, but the actual numbers were much lower and Ford sold out in 2003.

The climate for electric vehicles is presumably better now, though price, range, performance and the economic downturn are still daunting obstacles to significant sales numbers.

Looking to buck the odds, Think is back with a revamped City, though only in Europe.

Richard Canny, the chief executive for Think, said the new City is “night and day” different from the earlier model, though both are made of recyclable plastic body panels with molded-in colors. The City is built on a new platform with a larger body, and it is fully capable of highway speeds.

The car, which has been crash tested in Europe, is basically a two-seater, though 2+2 children’s seats are available. It can reach 68 miles an hour and has a cruising range of 100 to 110 miles, roughly double the earlier vehicle. It takes 12 hours to fully recharge the battery from a 110-volt wall outlet. It will sell for about $30,000 in Europe (the company Web site says “around $31,388”).

The key for greater range is lithium-ion batteries, which come from two American suppliers, A123 and EnerDel (a division of Ener1). The car is also being sold with Zebra sodium-nickel-chloride batteries.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/think-again-an-electric-car-makes-a-c- omeback/?hp

PF_Flyer

Given the costs and difficulties in turning a profit with them, does the current economic situtation put EV's on temporary hold? Or do manufacturers forge ahead and take the risks to bring EV's to reality?

railroadjames

More than the drastic economic situation I think the drastic drop in gas prices will reduce the pressure to press on with alturnitive fueled cars. If the itch goes away the want to scratch does too. But, I also think this coming administration will be much more effective than the dismal one that's on the way out. No genious thought to that one. I'd like to think that battery development will improve to assist in better results and longevity of hybrid and/or EV vehicles. One last thought. My '04 Prius cost just over 20 G's in '03 and with the tax breaks it sure was a great investment not to mention it's virtually the same car for all of seven years with only a few changes.Nice to know as an owner. Gotta love resale values too.

gagrice

it's virtually the same car for all of seven years

Actually the Prius II is just barely 5 years old. It just seems like you have had it forever. :sick:

The original was a lot different than the current vintage.

I don't think you will see much going on in American made electric vehicles. The major component is now and for the future will be the battery. My bet is they will be made in China and maybe India. From what I can tell much of the Lithium comes from Bolivia. So maybe that will become the battery capitol of the World.

railroadjames

Actually your not listening. I'll say it again. The 2nd Generation Prius came out in '04 and other than minor changes (Rr camera..interior upholstery...surface change on dash) the car is identical thru 2009. The current info suggests the 2010 will still look like , be powered by the same hybrid duo & have nearly identical specs as the '04. As I count it thats 7 yrs the same car. Name me any other car that has stayed that consistant thru 7 yrs for the average buyer.

About long trips, all I can tell you is , after an 8,000 mile trip to Montana and then Atlanta, Ga I will say that the Prius was reasonably comfortable to me and my fussy wife. We know its no plush ride but, it is all we seem to demand of a mid-size car. I've heard some road noise but then I've heard worse in other cars. Pontiac has been one that seemed much worse and that was the Grand Prix.

gagrice

I guess I was thinking you were on 7 years with your Prius. Actually I bought the the 7th year Sequoia that was virtually unchanged. It may be the normal cycle for Toyota. I am not sure what the point is.

I've heard some road noise but then I've heard worse in other cars.

I guess it all depends on what you are willing to live with. I know if you encountered any bad weather it was stressful driving. That to me is not acceptable. I stepped out of my Sequoia into my friends new Prius and did not expect it to be noisy. They are and he did not seem to mind. So different strokes for different folks. You do have the consolation of getting close to 50 MPG and that is worth something. My son in law bought a $12k Yaris and it is just a bit noisier than the Prius. He only gets 40 MPG. Which is better than the Yamaha Motorcycle he rode to work for 3 years. So many options...

My reason for wanting an EV is quiet peaceful ride. They don't offer that, they can keep them. I don't think that is asking too much out of vehicles that cost over $20k.

PF_Flyer

Ford Motor made electric vehicles a centerpiece of a turnaround plan presented to Congress on Tuesday, saying that it will introduce an all-electric van for fleet use in 2010 and a sedan in 2011.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10111091-54.html

wwest

Ford is being idiotic, AS USUAL. But I guess telling the Congress (dumb clucks..!!) what they want to hear is now, at this moment, the way to go.

Until we can develop more non-fossil fuel power generating capacity and begin ungrading the currently overloaded power distribution grid a major push to PHEV is the stuff of dreams.

Let's go with CNG, Compressed Natural Gas, as an interim solution. Compressed and filled at home each night, "off period".

gagrice

T Boone said it and I believe it. That we can do better in the interim with CNG than just about any other alternative.

wwest

Yes, and WE own the resource.

railroadjames

Interesting how the people & the auto industry rushed to find alturnative power sources to steer clear of oil dependancy. I too got swept into making serious choices as to my next car. That car ended up an '04 Prius. I primarily bought it for the obvious phenominal gas milage but came to learn that my Prius was alot more than just a "Gas Sipper." It was an engineering wonder to me. The special tranny, the worry free pollution, the never needing repair brakes (O.K. almost), and the durability of the car overall.
The thing is that this past Sunday's "60 Minutes" show dealt with Saudi Arabia's determined effort to produce vast amounts of new oil and their research & development of significant negligable polluting combustion engines using gas or diesil. Their insistance is to promote oil proliferation to the world. If you saw it you knew that they're not going down without a fight and considering the vast billions they have in their coffer I'd say they have an edge. After seeing the program it impressed me that oil is not taking a backseat just yet. This show was quite enlightening. I do think electric is here to stay but oil is also staying too. Maybe it will get a better reputation in the years to come.

wwest

Maybe a win-win for both, ALL parties.

Improved FE at the development expense of the Saudi's, lower fuel cost as a result results, worldwide oil resource lasts longer.

Gives us, US, time to develop an interim strategy for the use of our own HUGE NG reserves, and in the longer term electric power generation capability, wind, waves, sun and nuclear.

PF_Flyer

Given the current (no pun intended) state of affairs, are EV's going to be pushed to the back burner for the time being? There's not going to be a lot of extra cash floating around right now and "expensive extras" have moved down everyone's lists for the moment.

wwest

EV's Electric vehicles, will NEVER be viable within a 20 year old's lifetime.

PF_Flyer

Is that because of infrastructure, limitations of battery technology, consumers??

I think it's real popular to want to "look green" at the moment and that EV's don't make as much sense at the moment as proponents think they do.

Do you feel battery technology has gone as far as it's going to go?

gagrice

The Dodge Circuit EV delivers all of the convenience features of a performance sports car, including premium sound system, power windows and door locks, air conditioning, speed control.

Propelled by a completely electric ENVI drivetrain, the Dodge Circuit EV posts impressive performance numbers:

- 0-60 mph in less than 5 seconds
- 1/4-mile in 13 seconds
- Top speed of more than 120 mph

Perhaps the most impressive Dodge Circuit EV number, however, is zero. That's how much gasoline the vehicle consumes while providing exhilarating sports car performance. It's also how much tailpipe emissions are produced.

The Dodge Circuit EV utilizes just three powertrain components. These include a 200 kW (268 horsepower) electric motor
to drive the wheels, an advanced lithium-ion battery system to power the electric-drive motor, and a controller that manages energy flow.

Working with the latest advanced lithium-ion battery technology, the Dodge Circuit EV has a driving range of 150 to 200 miles between charges - more than triple the average daily commute of most consumers. Recharging the vehicle is a simple one-step process: plugging into a standard 110-volt household outlet. The recharge time can be cut in half by using a typical 220-volt household appliance power outlet.

The Dodge Circuit EV offers driving enthusiasts a performance sports car that can be driven to work every day - without consuming gasoline or producing tailpipe emissions.

Tesla killer?

wwest

Power generation capability, distribution/grid, cost...COST.

How long to bring enough nuclear generating capability on line to even support 5% of today's "traffic".

Whereas there is clearly an overabundance of NG.

aldusq

How many kilowatts to charge the batteries?

wwest

UNKNOWN..

Depends on the individual owner's daily drive cycle/period.

wlbrown9

"So after the 40 mile range of pure battery power is dissipated, can the little gas engine keep the battery charged while you're running along or do you have to stop to recharge?

A vehicle the size of the Volt would probably be using about 20 kilo-watts if it was traveling down the highway at 80 mph. It doesn't take that big of an engine to generate 20 kW. The Volt is going to have a 1.0L engine, which acts as a generator. There are generators available today no bigger than this that can generate 20 kW. "

Not the Volt, but how about a similar vehicle, the Extended Range Electric work truck...40 mile electric range, 400 mile range with gas... 100 kW generator, 200 kW motor. Nice that you can use the generator to power a jobsite or your home (during power failure.)

http://www.rasertech.com/media/movies/html/e-rev_truck_c.html

EREV ...Hummer http://www.rasertech.com/media/movies/html/fev_jan09.html

PG&E to take delivery of 2 EREV fleet trucks to test, maybe next month.

I like this concept. My normal commute is about 20 miles each way, 40 total. So, in theory most days I would use very little if any gas. One of their videos says normal city driving like this might use 5 tanks a year. Electricity for charging estimated $1 per day. Plus, you can drive unlimited distance using the generator.

It really depends on how you drive...past 8 years I have averaged 17K miles a year. My old Trooper averages about 17 mpg, the new Saturn Outlook about 21. So, my consumption would be around 800-1000 gallons a year. So, even assuming gas goes back up to $4/gal fuel would cost me around $3600 year for 900 gal.

Using 6 - 12 gallon tanks a year for normal commute would run $288, then assume for another 6000 non commute miles, trips, long detours on the way home exceeding the 40 mile range, assume average 30 mpg, another $800 @ $4 gal. Say just round up to $1200 year.

Using these figures, I could save maybe $2500 year, $1800 perhaps at $3 a gallon. At that I possibly justify spending $5-6K more for a like vehicle with the EREV.

We of course have to wait until (if) these are available.

boaz47

The big six will be first. I believe a small company may beat them to it. I saw this on the news the other night and the reporter even demonstrated the car.

http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/kit-eaton/technomix/first-aptera-electric-cars-r- oll-out-vehicle-future

The part that I found interesting is they already have 4000 orders, it only takes a $500.00 refundable deposit, and the price is already better than what we were told GM or Nissan would offer.

But technically I guess the EV-1 and Toyota EV Rav-4s would have been first if the public could have bought them to start with. The EV-1 was a lease only and the Rav-4 was a government test.

nippononly

But the RAV-EV was available for sale to retail customers for MY 2002 and 2003. So it counts as the first?