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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • lucien2lucien2 Posts: 2,984
    Hell yea, I'll drive the GT for 3-4 more years if it means I can have that.....

    (ok, what the hell is sitescope and why did it barge into my Edmunds session demanding a username and password, then deny me the right to post?!)
  • hypovhypov Posts: 3,068
    you too

    -Dave
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I was hoping that would allow me to login as a host, thought maybe they upgraded my account.

    -mike
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    could have been during a certain time though and at the time of this posting it's all fixed?

    -Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Bob - those MIA models you listed are probably the slowest sellers. Exception: Baja, because it's a new model.

    They had all the volume sellers - Forester, LL Bean, WRX, OBS, etc.

    Anyway, the Subaru stand was crowded. Much more so than last year IIRC.

    -juice
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    Check out this discussion at NAISOC.

    Looks like some WRX owners are a little sensitive to the possibility that the Forester XT might be as quick (if not quicker) than their vehicles. ;-)

    Ken
  • ducktapeguyducktapeguy Posts: 115
    But this is new for me. I got to finally see the Subaru WRX Sti in person last night. I really like the looks of the new one, I was getting used to the bugeyed look, but the new one doesn't take any getting used to, it just looks right. The only thing I'd say looks weird is the giant hood scoop. At this rate the 2010 Sti is gonna be a giant hoodscoop on wheels.
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    Boy, I had no idea that it would rub current REX owners that way. I just hope that excitement doesn't keep prices up on XT's - I'm hoping the STi (as well as the regular ol' '04 WRX) draws any extra attention away from the XT's.

    (trying to cleverly convince the dw she needs an XT for her Tastefully Simple business, what a write-off that would be!)

    -Brian
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    Yeah, doesn't it make you chuckle? I think the heart of the envy comes from the fact that the XT will be getting the 2.5 turbo.

    On the contrary, I believe the STi will direct more attention to the XT. For now the XT and Baja turbo are the only two vehicles in Subaru's line up that would be able to take bolt-on upgrades from the STi.

    I thought Paul Hansen's comment on the fact that the JDM Forester turbo has always had very close straightline performance to the WRX was interesting.

    "Tastefully Simple" -- what kind of business? I like the name.

    Ken
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    Muhahahahaha ;-).

    After last Friday I think the likelihood of my going over to the dark side has decreased dramatically.

    Ed
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    I caught that comment too. Not that I'd be modding it, er, her vehicle, but it's nice to know. I hadn't pictured it as a sleeper before, and now it's just so obvious! My dw is happy with her MPV, so I'd just have to drive the XT. ;-)

    (delving OT a bit...)
    http://www.tastefullysimple.com is the company website. Think of it as something like Pampered Chef/Tupperware/etc. She enjoys it, so I'm behind her 100%. Plus the benefits I get are free Beer Bread (yummmy!) and any other samples. She does this part time, hoping to one day to just do this. She'll likely be posting a bit of a profit this year, so I'll need to start thinking of things to offset it (could use a computer for her business alone, car for business, etc.) That's where my XT thoughts come in!

    (If anyone is interested) shoot me an email if you want more info on the food thing.

    -Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Hee hee, chip a 2.5XT and it'll be potentially a *lot* faster than a WRX.

    Think about it, 25% more displacement, not much extra weight.

    Ed: I can sense it. ;-)

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    If you chip it, then you also need to upgrade other items as well:

    Brakes
    Suspension
    etc.

    -mike
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    Ed,

    Same here too, except that for me it was seeing the '04 WRX wagon in person. I was a bit underwhelmed, especially with the thought that it wouldn't come with AWP.

    HOWEVER, there is another contender in the not-to-far future.

    http://www.apexjapan.com/news/04_leg/03_leg_photo.html

    How about waiting around for that?

    Ken
  • lucien2lucien2 Posts: 2,984
    of that Leg. Just need to wait for pricing. XT or Leg, XT or Leg.....
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    Star Wars quotes or yearning for Subaru's that turbo, you decide! ;-)

    "I can turn him back to the good side. I have to try." (Luke, Episode VI) - The good side is becoming blurry: Forester XT, WRX, WRX-STi, Baja Turbo, or '05 Legacy?

    "There is a great disturbance in the Force." (Emperor, Episode V) - Wagon, Mini-SUV, Sedan, or crossover truck? How does one decide?

    "There is a question of precedure, but I feel confident we can overcome it..." (Palpatine, Episode I) - Anyone want to buy a slightly used <insert your Subaru here>?

    "I think we'd better replace the negative power coupling." (Han, Episode V) - Which STi parts will work on my <insert turbo Subaru model here>?

    ;-)

    -Brian
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    that the next Legacy with turbo will be around $30k or so, just an uneducated guess.

    XT premium probably $27k, again uneducated guess.

    -Brian
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I like it so far, but I'll have to wait for an H6. Hopefully H6t :)

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Posts: 5,038
    "need" to upgrade brakes and suspension after chipping a Forester XT?

    whateva.

    -Colin
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    C'mon you know about all the yahoos out there who do "power upgrades" without the associated beefing up of other components. Would you not suggest doing upgrades to brakes and suspension with the increase power of a chip AND upgraded turbo (I believe the STi uses a different turbo unit)

    But hey if you wanna have an unbalanced car for the drag strip, that's cool.

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Posts: 5,038
    you can increase the power a LOT over stock in most cars and have a perfectly driveable vehicle as long as you keep your wits about you...

    likewise you can have an underpowered turd with nifty suspension and brakes that is a fine handling (probably great at autocross) but ultimately boring car.

    -Colin
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    You win... Let's all upgrade our engines w/o the driveline or suspension or tires, or brakes or any of that stuff. Very safe. :(

    -mike
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    Do you think the OEM setup of the XT or Baja turbo would be capable of say 250hp?

    -Brian
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    Brian,

    Good question. I guess it depends on how much margin is built into the drivetrain.

    Ken
  • locke2clocke2c Posts: 5,038
    I don't "win", I just disagree with that fashionable bit of thinking.

    I have driven RS turbos and frankly there is nothing all that different from a WRX. why is going from 165 to 220ish HP okay but 220 to 270 not?

    The brakes and handling are already quite competent, it's just up to the driver not to do something stupid with the additional power.

    -Colin
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    How can you not like a 395hp bi-turbo H6 sedan? Assuming you upgrade everything else and willing to shell out the $40K, why not?

    Even better, put the engine in a future STi, or make a Forester STi? :-))))
  • allhorizonallhorizon Posts: 483
    I asked SoA if they had more detailed specs on the turbo Forester (e.g., suspension upgrades etc.).

    They claimed that specifications outside of the Auto Show info are currently not available. Here is what they said:

    "This new model should be available at Subaru dealerships in June, which is when our Web site will be updated with the 2004 Forester information."

    Note that the clearance is officially listed as 7.5", which is the same as the other Foresters. And I wouldn't want it any lower.

    - D.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I agree for certain drivers you can get away with upgrading the power w/o the rest of the vehicle, but as a general rule for general people, isn't it advisable to upgrade the whole system? Also my guess is that a chip + upgraded turbo + catback + IC would yield more than 40hp? I'd think that you could easily throw on some upgrades to give it more ponies than the STi thereby necessitating upgrades to the brakes and suspension?

    -mike
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    Ken: Maybe I could wait for the new Legacy, but how long will it take to get here? In other words, has the Indiana plant started retooling and how long will the '04 model run be? (Rhetorical question, I know.) The new car is very sharp, at least from front/rear view; rear reminds me a little of the Audi A6 Avants. I hope I won't need anything larger than a Legacy because I've come to the conclusion that I don't like driving big cars. I have to be honest: I haven't driven any Legacy - L, GT or Outback - that's as fun to toss around as my Forester. The only Subie I've driven that's more fun is the WRX, and I've only driven a sedan.
      
    allhorizon: I'm a little surprised that the XT has the same ground clearance as the rest of the line (I suppose I could've measured it on Friday). That puts a little damper on the rumors that it'd have a different suspension than the X and XS - of course it could have different spring and shock rates while maintaining the current ride height.

    Colin: The Forester XT would be upgrade enough for me, I imagine. A good argument could be made that I'm wasting my 17" plus-one setup on my current Forester (I won't go so far as to call it an "underpowered turd") but it does make it much more fun to drive and a surprisingly good handler. OTOH I could save them to put on a new XT.

    Brian: I'm beginning to think there is no dark side...it's all good.

    Ed
  • hondafriekhondafriek Ottawa CanadaPosts: 2,983
    After lusting after a B4 for so long you have to wait for the new Legacy, It would appear to be most things that you want.

     Cheers Pat.
  • bat1161bat1161 Posts: 1,784
    Another way to look at it: by the time the new Legacy gets here, maybe we'll be at version 2.0 of the Baja Turbo. 2 years would be a good time frame- by that time I should be able to go for a new(er) Subie. That is if I can resist the new Baja Turbo:-)

    Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    We should call that the Legacy Avant. I really like it. I could end up with the base turbo (non-STi), if the wife likes the space inside.

    After the chip, what else would I get? I think for an XT I'd put winter tires on the standard rims and gets 17" rims with summer tires for truly sporty driving. Maybe upgrade the brakes, but only if I felt they faded with my typical use. I don't think I'd change the springs.

    Besides, most "upgraded" springs tend to have less travel and a ride far too harsh for the roads I happen to drive on. I might even have to rethink the rims. The Miata takes a pounding, no doubt.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I'm all for the holistic approach to upgrades. I'm not power hungry :) You can drive a car that handles better quickly rather than a car with gobs of power that handles poorly.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    True, or you can have both. :-)

    I'm just saying that's what some would do. Heck, I'm not even sure I'll get an XT, given the phase of my life (parenthood).

    -juice
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    So, is the Baja turbo going to be made in Indiana while the Forester XT in Gunma?

    Does that mean SOA will be importing the 2.5 Turbo for the Baja Turbo or are they planning on building the 2.5 T here?

    I've seen a Forester XT brochure at a local dealer and I do recall the specs mentioning a 7.5" ground clearance. For this particular application, I'd gladly trade off some ground clearance for a more sporting ride.

    Ed: One thing that also would tip me in favor for the XT is that it will probably will continue to be built in Japan. Just my own personal preference.

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Remember that PDF to SIA employees? The Baja turbo engine is probably already being made at SIA.

    I'm sure the Forester engine will be made in Gunma. I wonder if any JDM vehicles will get that powertrain?

    I'm gonna disagree with you and Ed and ask for the same clearance. Not that I wouldn't want it sportier, just that it'll hurt the image if it's any lower than it already is, and therefore sales.

    Look how much cooler the Baja looks even after a tiny 1.1" lift.

    10% stiffer springs, and fatter sways front and rear, sure. RS springs fit and are a dime-a-dozen if you want to lower it.

    -juice
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    juice: I didn't ask for lower ground clearance in the XT, but I was expecting it based on what I've read posted on another board (which I can't link to here) that speculated the XT would ride on the JDM Cross Sports suspension. Here's what I wrote:

    "allhorizon: I'm a little surprised that the XT has the same ground clearance as the rest of the line (I suppose I could've measured it on Friday). That puts a little damper on the rumors that it'd have a different suspension than the X and XS - of course it could have different spring and shock rates while maintaining the current ride height."

    I have always been a fan of the current ride height, don't want to raise or lower it, nor do I want lips, spats, skirts or anything else hanging off the bottom of my Forester - except bigger mud flaps. ;-)

    Ed
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Posts: 1,394
    2003/01/28 - Subaru gets serious

    The entire Subaru lineup will be pressurized for at least the top-end offerings in most to all international markets. For the U.S. specifically, which is the focus of Subaru's current efforts, this means that the Forester, Baja, and next version of the Legacy will be turbocharged with intercooled single turbo systems. Of particular note is the fact that all of them will not be using 2.0-litre turbo motors, but instead variants of the 2.5-litre turbo found in the upcoming USDM STi. And contrary to rumours otherwise, that is not an existing 2.5-litre block adapted to a high-pressure lifestyle, but is indeed a whole new block designed for pooowaaah. The Legacy, Forester and Baja will not be running the 300hp/300ft/lb lifestyle designated for the rich and famous STi, instead featuring power in the 220-260hp range with gobs of tarmac destroying low-end torque. The new Legacy is a cracker of a car, btw, and a source says it goes much better than the oh-so-last-week-news B4. It is likely to be sharper, with more responsive steering, more aggressive suspension and enough rubber to keep this lighter B4 replacement out of the weeds. Sounds like a S401 for the masses! There is no story on what happens to the WRX, and it's likely to keep the 2.0-litre turbo unit, given the marketplace in Europe and Asia greatly prefers the tax bracket that motor and car size fits in. Recent USDM STi rumours points towards it not only being more manly than any other STi in the marketplace, but also lighter on it's feet, though probably not the wallet. STi is allegedly working on getting this car to around the weight of a stripped down STi Type C, but with all the goodies intact. For some reason, 300hp, 300ft/lb's of torque in a 3000lb awd cannon shot sounds almost poetic to this bearer of good gossip.
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    That source expected the power to be in "the 220-260hp range with gobs of tarmac destroying low-end torque"...

    Both the Baja Turbo and Forester XT are listed at 210hp @ 5.6k RPM, 235lb-ft @ 3.6k RPM, per http://www.media.subaru.com

    -Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Ed: damper on the rumors, not a damper on your expectations for the XT suspension. OK, got it, my bad.

    I like the current clearance because you can easily drive over speed bumps, steep driveways, ramps, etc. I don't think I've ever bottomed out, something I can't say for any other car I've owned.

    Perhaps the 220-260 was meant for the Legacy motor.

    -juice
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Posts: 1,394
    I would like subaru to separate the styling for legacy & outback much more distinctively like VW & audi..............

    Outback will be the only model without a turbo ? that't not good......this is the highest selling model ?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Outback gets the H6, and exclusively.

    SUV owners want more cylinders, so to me that strategy makes sense since it's pitched as an SUV alternative.

    The Legacy GT will get a turbo.

    Look at the Audi allroad quattro - the 2.7T engine wasn't enough so now they offer a V8.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the '05 Outback also gets the Forester XT/Baja turbo engine, perhaps as a mid-engine, between the base H-4 and the top (upgraded) H-6.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Why would you change the styling from an impreza to a legacy within the same brand? The Legacy-impreza analogy withe VW-Audi doesn't make sense. If anything the analogy of Subaru-Saab would make more sense.

    -mike
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Posts: 1,394
    no, i am talking about styling between legacy & outback....they both should look different as VW & audi does.........
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    VW and Audi are different BRANDS, not different LINES.

    -mike
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Posts: 1,394
    yeah, but they share a lot of parts......my point is they should make outback look very different styling from legacy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think he means that the Audi allroad quattro is further differentiated from the standard A6 Avant. It's raised higher, has skid plates, more visible cladding, different standard engine, etc.

    The Outback is only slightly raised and painted two-tone, but for the most part it still looks like a Legacy.

    I agree - the 2005 Legacy looks like it'll get a flat roof. Give the 2005 Outback an exslusive raised roof with theatre seating for the back row. Give it a bigger gas tank under that higher seat, and make the H6 the standard engine. Give it real skid plates and more of a lift for the suspension.

    -juice
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    Further differentiating the OB would be an evolutionary change.

    Back in '96, the Outback was just an option package for the Legacy wagon as much as it was for the Impreza wagon. In '97 it became a variant of the Legacy and it's become more distinct since.

    Interestingly, the Forester was the first model to come out where the "Outback" package -- cladding, beefier suspension, AWP (in some trims) -- was already included.

    Ken
  • lucien2lucien2 Posts: 2,984
    I think the current 2.5RS/WRX is a good example, Paisan. To turbo a current 2.5RS is to add somewhere in the neighborhood of 50hp. The WRX has a 62 hp advantage over the RS, but their running gear is essentially identical. No need to "upgrade" an RS-T then, really.
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