Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland

Click on Impreza roadster link.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/

Bob

lark6

Bob, I'm still not with it. The B9 rear could work with revisions to the taillights, but the front leaves me cold. It looks like a bad copy of a copy of an Alfa Giulietta, and reminds me of the Volvo P1900, the short-run 2-seater convertible from the late 1950's (see, e.g., http://www.volvoadventures.com/1900_2.jpg).

It works better on the city car than on the roadster. I can't picture a Forester with that busy front end.

Ed

rsholland

Whatever Subaru comes up with, somebody, somewhere, will say it looks like such-and-such. It's very hard, in this day and age, to come up with a look that's totally unique, and that doesn't have some visual, historical reference. Those that "are" totally unique, are usually doomed to failure (Edsel, Aztek).

Bob

nematode

"premium-priced"
"priced in the mid-$30,000 range"
"start at the upper end of the Outback and move up"

juice is as hard core Subaru as they come so I think all those things are bad news for Subaru. They are going to get HAMMERED in that range. Seven passenger "things" (non-core SUV) slated for AWD, traction control, and stability control in the $35k (+/-$5k) range are pretty numerous.

Are you going to give us something better? Or just different? I'm getting nervous. I'm replacing my car end of next year or early the year after. I'm looking in the sub-$45k range (really below $40k). What can you do for me?

What I would have liked to have seen:
"Range of prices with family friendly units for the Subaru faithful starting at $25k"
>I need more room. I bet juice does too. I'm not hardcore Subaru but this equation still holds true: me+wife+inlaws+dog+luggage+Outback=disaster.

"Fully loaded premium variants with 300hp for upscale buyers topping out at $40k"
>I dont want to buy the Highlander Ltd, Volvo V70R/XC90, Acura MDX Touring, Toyota Sienna XLE Ltd AWD, or the Quest, or a variety of others but I will if you dont build me something better. They are all pretty good.

"Its an alternative to the OB for people who need more room."
>Room. Yup, thats what I want. I like Subaru and I want more room.

Really, if they price this above the Highlander, Pilot, Pacifica, V70 it will be huge disaster. That is unless its just crazy powerful or just beautiful.

ateixeira

Will Baja hurt Subaru? Well, I think the bottom line is they cannot escape their quirky, niche-manufacturer nature. So "No". It cost them very little. They had record sales in July. Can you imagine Subaru without character? Me neither.

Next topic. ;-)

Mid $30k for starters? OK, breaks my heart. I don't want an MDX alternative, I want a Pilot alternative. Disappointing...

I can't help but think they didn't learn their lesson with the VDC launch. Honestly, I recall one left over sitting in the Fitz lot for almost a year, at one point they were selling a brand new one for $25,571. I remember the price exactly.

So, I guess I'll wait for the slow sales, then the incentives, then that last one on the lot collecting dust, and then pay $27,571 for it. But why plan on failure and discounts? Imagine pricing it aggressively from the get-go?

OK, I hope we find the Legacy wagon is roomy enough!

Why build up the slow-selling loaded Outback? Grrr, drives me nuts! For now it's crossed off my list, mid 30s is just not where I'm shopping.

-juice

lark6

Even though it's not what I'm looking for personally, I wish Subaru did build something to compete with Highlander and Pilot. My wife has been looking at both and won't consider anything in the current Subaru lineup. She does recognize the good treatment that SoA has given me - in terms of support (read: Patti & co.) and the little perks as well - and that makes a favorable impression.

Ed

ateixeira

I use the slash, "/", on purpose, because I don't see how these models will be differentiated. The Outbacks are no longer two-tone, so they even look the same. 3 engine options in both, all identical?

Why not just merge them both, call it the Legback or Outgacy? (pardon my rant)

I was with paisan on this one, Outback should have been H6 only. Oh well. If Subaru figures they can offer all of them without costs going too crazy, at least we have more options.

+7.1 mpg sounds great, from the regular 2.5l I presume. Good news, this is how they'll meet CAFE standards, then. They must have relaxed the gearing some.

-juice

ateixeira

And finally, I *LOVE* the B9 hybrid roadster. Gorgeous! Best Subie ever by far!

I mean, I see a modernized, high-tech, Japanese BMW Z8. Look at it...seriously. The proportions are stunning! :-)

I see the Alfa influence in the front, toned down nicely, BMW Z8 proportions, and a hint of the Audi Avus in the flared and creased fenders. All influences from gorgeous cars, mind you.

I think if I had seen the R1e first, I would have liked it. You have to compare it to other minicompacts. In that context, it looks good. But the B9 steals the show, and all of my attention.

I'm going to go stare at those pictuers a little longer, and dream of a $30k starting price.

-juice

nematode

Lets see what have I looked at so far...

Pacifica (loaded, AWD) $34K right now. MSRP was $38k. They started discounting them $2k within the first few months and now I here there is a $2k rebate!!! It will be at $32k before long.

Acura MDX $36-37k. $38k with the Touring package. Its louder inside than my wifes 2k OB Ltd. Its low on the list but still nice.

Pilot $32-33k with the Nav option. Nice value but I could not find skid control and also louder inside that I would like.

Highlander (3rd row, AWD, loaded, nav, DVD) $35-36k No, I'm not kidding. The MSRP is $39k. I did not bother driving it.

Sienna XLE Limited AWD. $38k. $40k with the DVD/NAV package. Its second on my list right now but its really floaty on the highway. You will pay MSRP if you can get one.

GMC Yukon Denali (DVD, roof). Its $42 for the 03 and is really out of my price range. BUT its the one I really want. Then I could also get the trailer I wanted too and spend even more money.

I like spending a year or more looking for a car. Sometimes I think its the best part. I just hopes Subaru give me something to look at.

kens

Ed,

It's amazing how similar of a situtation we're in. Both of us currently own Foresters and are shopping for a turbo Subaru wagon. Meanwhile, despite our constant sales pitch, our wives have no interest in any Subarus and are looking at the Highlander (my wife really likes that model too).

I see an immediate sale if Subaru could offer a competitive package of the Forester XT and 7-passenger SUV.

Ken

njswamplands

bluesubie

I asked my dealer if he had seen any pictures of it, and he said yes.

He said that it looked like any of the "luxury" SUV's on the road now. I forgot to ask him about the grille. Hopefully SoA is getting good feedback from the focus groups and dealers.

-Dennis

sweet_subie

" Turbo will be offered on Legacy and Outback in the near future, so the full line will have a driving performance option. Subaru customers can choose the approach that best suits them.” "

http://www.drive.subaru.com/Fall03_DriversSeat.htm

ateixeira

I follow, but I'd be considering lesser equipped Pilots and competitors. Both start in the mid/upper 20s, and the Pilot in particular offers pretty good value - under $30k for an EX.

That's without leather or moonroof, but still, I hope Subaru offers a similar model later on. I'd even be willing to give up my beloved moonroof for it.

Upper 30s and you have to add the Armada to the list, too. We're talking V8 full-size for that kind of money. Sheesh.

You may want to go the used route, I know for instance 2 year old Expeditions plunge in value to about $20k, so 1st and 2nd year depreciation on those is basically absurd. And Ford's trucks are a lot better than their cars.

Shopping around almost forces you into a minivan, for a lot less than that $35k starting price you could get a leather/DVD video Odyssey even with an extended warranty.

I told my wife the price and she is BUMMED. It already has her talking about a minivan next time around. So my strategy now is to stall. Ugh.

-juice

wheelz4

Hate to say it, but minivans are, by far, the better value. Pilots are about 10K more than Odysseys up here and the cheapest Highlander with 7 pass. seating is about 6K more than an Odyssey and 8K more than the new Sienna. If Subie's new 7 passenger SUV is priced in the mid 30's $US, that'll translate to over 50K in the Great white North....almost 60K with freight, taxes etc.
Way too much. I think we'll be looking at an MPV, thank you.

rsholland

http://www.subaru.com.au/news/?newsid=11894

H6 3.0L engine rated at 241 hp @ 6600 RPM and 219 lb-ft @ 4200 RPM, 3968 pounds of braked towing (think we'll ever see that here?), full-size spare, and other goodies.

I'm betting the 2.5 turbo, in Legacy/Outback tune, will have more torque, and at a lower rpm.

Bob

lark6

Yeah, Ken, our situations DO sound very similar. I will add that my wife is now leaning back toward the Pilot over the Highlander for several reasons.

One, our local Toyota dealer was very pushy in his efforts to get her into an '03, specifically to clear his lots of inventory. Too bad for him - she already knew of the coming improvements to the '04s (did I mention she has started looking at Edmunds'?) and wouldn't budge.

Two, she is very put off by Toyota's apparent plan to stock one or two stripped price leaders on the lot, the rest of the cars loaded to the gills, and nothing in between - and no efforts to locate the "in between" model she wants. Frankly I don't know that she'll have more success with Honda in that regard.

Three, she has had her own good experiences with her Accord. Granted she has not received the attention and perks from Honda that I have from SoA, but then in 12+ years and 187K miles she has not had any major mechanical repairs to the car (cf. three rear wheel bearings and a head gasket in 4 years and 59K miles on my Forester). Granted the early '90s were Honda's zenith in terms of quality but that does stick in our collective heads.

Ed

rsholland

http://response.jp/issue/2003/1016/article54311_1.html

You'll have to go to the "other site" for translations.

Bob

nematode

Things I need:
1) Power leather heated seats with lumbar. I would also like 2 memory settings for the driver seat/mirrors.
2) AWD
3) Traction control
4) Skid control/stability control
5) Room for 7
6) Heated everthing. Mirros, nozzles, windshield, everything.
7) Rear air/heat control
8) I would also like self-leveling suspension but its not a MUST have.
9) HID
10) Really would like 5000lb towing. 3500 may be good enough.

Believe it or not I dont want NAV or DVD. The problem for me going used is that I dont want a vehicle that was used for towing (or treated harshly) even though I'm going to tow with it. A paradox.

As my list gets bigger......the list of cars/vans/trucks gets smaller and more expensive. I either have to be less picky or just wait until I have the money to get what I want. I'm in no hurry.

ateixeira

MPVs are a great value, hard to ignore really. But the wife wants something *big* and roomy next go 'round. We'll see. We may try it again because our expectations are changing.

I don't need power seats or leather, or memory. I realize some do, so offer a "Limited" with all that stuff. I'd settle for half the things on your list, maybe even less.

H6 gets 241 HP on what octane? Do they still call for premium? If it takes 87, that may be the ticket. Answered my own question:

full size spare tyre and it runs on 95 RON unleaded, not 98 RON

More B9 comments:

* headlights look like Nike swoosh! )
* check out that unpainted cladding!
* 2.0l means prices should be lower than I first thought, maybe $25k
* mesh grille would look even better

OK, now I want a B9 for myself in a year or two, to replace the Miata, and the wife can wait for a slightly used 7-seater or whatever. :-)

-juice

rsholland

I agree juice, I think it's gorgeous. And I think, from what I've read, Subaru may be considering this one for production.

You know the next Acura NSX will also be a AWD hybrid, or so the rumor goes? It would be neat if this B9 also remains a hybrid!

Bob

ateixeira

That makes it interesting. Would it compete with the Miata and MR2, or the Civic Hybrid and the Prius?

Either way, it would have to cost about $25 grand or so, I'm guessing.

That Acura concept was at first a Honda, remember? I guess for the price they could build it for, they had to call it an Acura.

-juice

rsholland

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%- 2Fwww.auto-g.jp%2Fspecial%2F2003_1014%2Fsubaru%2Fb9%2Findex.html&- amp;lp=ja_en&tt=url

Finally a shot of it in motion, and from the side. It also has a height adjustable air suspension & dual-range tranny.

Bob

ateixeira

Wild, neither one seems necessary at all. Why?

Well, electrics make peak power at zero rpm, so low rpm torque should already be excellent. It's the Subaru that least would need it, also because it's not going to tow or go off road.

And why an adjustable suspension on a roadster? I bet payload would be 500 lbs if that. It's not going to be hauling. Meanwhile, the US Forester can tow 2400 lbs and haul 900 of payload and it doesn't get it?

I'm sure they're just showing off technologies, but the production model they make for me doesn't need to have either of those features. ;-)

Check out the Ecsaine seats. Or some sort of suede, anyway. They look grippy.

-juice

rsholland

I think we will see that on the new Outback. I believe they're on one version of the Oz H-6.

Bob

ateixeira

Oh man, now that I heard the 7 seater will be priced out of my range, an H6 keeps moving up my short list. Just hope it feels roomy enough to the boss (read: wife).

H6 wagon with Ecsaine seats, and huge moonroof!

-juice

rsholland

Is the B9 the car the Baja wasn't?

It seems perfectly suited to being a SoCal beach buggie, with it's dual-range tranny and height adjustable suspension. If this car doesn't raise interest in Subaru in the sun belt states, nothing will.

Carrying surfboards, that's another issue...

Bob

ateixeira

It'll appeal to those customers, yeah, but for a different reason.

Just saw pics of the R2. I much prefer the R1e. Or the HM-01. This is a poor execution of the B11S look.

The headlights ruin it, plus it's too upright visually.

Keeping in mind this competes with the Ford Ka, it's not *that* bad, only so-so.

Hey - doors = 2, i.e. D2, call it the R2D2? LOL

Some cues I noticed: the taillights looks sort of like the ones on the new Legacy sedan, only higher mounted.

Check it out, Shiftronic. Even the Forester XT doesn't get that! 7 speed, too!

I like the 5 spoke rims and the B11S style flares. It's hard for such a tiny car to stand out and this one tries, at least.

I like the line along the side, also. Definitely derived from the B11S.

In order, I like the B9 Scrambler, then the B11S, then the R1e, then the R2 last by a wide margin.

-juice

ateixeira

I did a quick and informal search of vans, even with a DVD player you could get an MPV, Sienna, Odyssey, or Quest for under $30k, mid-level models, too, not stripped. All with 6 cylinder power.

Only the Sienna is near MSRP, some are even $500 off now. I was able to find Quests at $500 over invoice already, though I hate that center mounted speedo.

OK, they're vans and lack AWD (optional on Sienna), but still...

They had one heavily loaded Sienna for $42 grand though, yikes!

-juice

jimmyp1

They say April 2004! Six months!

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0310_frst_legacy/

Jim

ateixeira

That says 250hp, 230 lb-ft.

Interestingly, that is less torque than the Forester XT, but more power, at least stated power (we all know the XT makes more like 240hp or so).

220 lbs lighter sounds great. I may end up buying a beater minivan and then letting the wife get the sports sedan she's always wanted - a Legacy GT, perhaps.

That would bring our fleet to 4 cars, though. For 2 drivers! )

-juice

bat1161

Sounds like it will be an interetsing car to test drive. I can't wait to check out the wagons side by side.

Mark

rsholland

Scroll down a bit to get the story.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6521&sid=17- 3&n=156

Bob

ateixeira

Ironic, isn't it, that the same link says the Pacifica rebates jumped up to $3000 already?

Guess where the AWD model starts off? Did you say $33k? Ding-ding, we have a winner.

Does that price sounds familiar? For a 7 seater wagon/SUV hybrid thingy?

Now, to add insult to injury, resale values will be horrid. If you were first on the block, values have plunged since then. That's the exact opposite of what an upscale/prestige car is supposed to do for you, i.e. holds its value.

That paint's not even dry and already the cash back puts MSRP at 30k for starters, with invoice about 10% less than that. Exactly where I mentioned Subaru's prices should be to begin with...

Now, Subaru has a better grasp on reliability, and Lance is a more appealing spokesperson than Celine Dion, but still.

-juice

kens

Less torque than the XT engine which already puts out somewhere around 260ft-lbs? I don't trust Motortrend.

Ken

ateixeira

260? Wow, is that what the dyno tests indicated?

This ain't helping my XT envy! LOL

-juice

sweet_subie

The Subaru B9 Scrambler Euro-styled roadster concept with all-wheel drive (naturally).

http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/0310_hscpreview/

sweet_subie

http://www.subaru-global.com/lineup/legacy/sedan/interior/equipme- nt.html

rsholland

Juice and I have been talking about this since post 11155. It's also a gas-electric hybrid. While there's been loads of discussion (mucho pixs & info!) on this as well as the R1e and R2 concepts over at the "other site" (see News & Rumors area), there's been very little discussion on these three here at Edmunds!?!?

rsholland Oct 14, 2003 9:10pm

Bob

rsholland

Notice the cruise control stalk, it's the same one used on our STi. It has the on/off master switch incorporated on the very end of the stalk, rather than the hard-to-find button located on the lower left of the dash. This a much better setup, and I hope it will work its way on to ALL Subies.

Bob

rsholland

Trying to put myself in the shoes of Subaru's product-planning/image-maker honchos...

Okay, here's what we know so far, all of which are rumors:

• To be built on a larger car-based platform, which may (or may not) evolve from the next Outback.

• Subaru is moving on to become to a premium carmaker, with this crossover being the first Subaru display Subaru's definition of what "premium" means.

• This crossover will be the first Subaru to debut their "new look."

• There have been rumors of both a 3.0 and 3.6 H-6.

• It could a cross between a Chrysler Pacifica-like vehicle and a Honda Pilot/Acura MDX.

• There have been rumors, from the European press, that it could be more off-road ready than any current Subaru.

That's pretty much it, as far as I know. However, with what we have just learned from what Subaru is going to display at the Toyko Motor show, there could be an interesting twist here.

My guesses are:

• I think it will have B9/R1e front end styling, as opposed to the the B11S. I suspect the B9/R1e's squared off grille will be easier for the public to digest, than the triangular B11S grille shape.

• This crossover will be the last to the "party," so to speak, so it better have something really unique that no one else has. If it's just another "me-too" effort, it will do nothing to polish that "premium" image Subaru wants to establish. Adding Lexus-like accoutrements and AWD won't cut the mustard, IMO. All these vehicles in this class have those features. So what does Subaru do to be different—and to be BETTER?

• I think we will see two engines: the rumored 3.6 H-6, and a 3.0 H-6 gas-electric hybrid. The B9 sports car concept is a 2.0 H-4 hybrid putting out 140 HP from the gas engine. If you add two cylinders to that you get a 3.0 210 HP engine, plus whatever power the electric engine adds.

Offering a 3.0 H-6 hybrid will do several things: It will establish Subaru as a leader in the hybrid market, thus polishing that "premium" image. The audience for crossovers (as well as minivans, and mainstream sedans) I think will be very receptive to this kind of eco-friendly powerplant.

Lexus has announced that there will be hybrid version of their new RX330 shortly. Acura's all-new RL and NSX reportedly may have both AWD and hybrid power. If Subaru's new crossover offers a gas-electric hybrid engine option too, it will instantly be thought of in the same breath as Lexus and Acura; not bad company to be associated with, as well as instant "premium carmaker" status...

One final comment: The B9 "sports car" has a dual-range tranny and height adjustable suspension. Sounds like it was engineered more for the crossover, if you ask me.

Bob

ateixeira

The Honda HSC looks like a worthy update for the NSX. Kind of like a Ferrari Enzo minus the "ugly".

Bob - you like the new Legacy's cruise switch with the built-in "On" button? Edit: you saw that already.

The seats looks nicely upgraded, but that middle of the 2nd row still doesn't look too hospitable.

And yeah, the B9 is extremely cool, WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE! LOL

Interesting comments on the hybrid power. It would be pretty shocking, but that's the idea, impress and even "wow" people to move upscale. Could they build it for the $33k price of the VDC, or would that be an upgrade model?

-juice

kens

juice,

Yep. 260-265 ft-lbs at the crank. That's what Cobb is estimating from their dyno run. Pretty impressive.

I've even read somewhere that the GT turbo may trade off some of that amazing torque for higher HP figures.

Ken

bluesubie

nabisco's Forester forum? Comments from Paul? ;-)
What? I'm checking out Forester forums now?!?!?

-Dennis

rsholland

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6737

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6742

ateixeira

Man, keep the torque. Just don't tell the insurance companies. ;-)

Bummer, both links require a subscription. Some times they let you in if you are just registered.

-juice

rsholland

http://www.webcg.net/WEBCG/news/000014115.html

jimmyp1

or can we throw out the common argument that "Subaru doesn't have the R&D money, like Honda and Toyota do, to enable them to develop different engines"?

Jim

kens

Jim,

I don't think Subaru has as much R&D money to spend as a Toyota, Honda or Nissan. It's probably just that other car manufacturers are more into heavily leveraging a workhorse engine over their models to save costs in an increasingly competitive marketspace.

Ken

rsholland

http://www.subdriven.com/index.html