Subaru Crew - Future Models II

amishra

Well the WRX is $36,000 in Canada, and the TS is $22,000.

Even if the WRX has 60 more horse, a slightly better suspension, appearance upgrades, etc; at the core they are still built on the same platform.

With 165 horses the TS ain't exactly slow (it is 500 pounds lighter than my OB with the same engine). I think the TS is a steal. I certainly would not pay an extra 14,000 for a WRX.

thecat

Amishra,
"I certainly would not pay an extra 14,000 for a WRX."

All I can say is .. if you drove one you might not feel that way

- hutch

barresa11

That was exactly what I was going to say....

Stephen

miksmi

Do we need a topic just for the two of you so you can rub WRX salt into my normally aspirated wound?



..Mike

thecat

YES ... pass the Mortons

- hutch

rsholland

You've been surprising quiet regarding your new toy. Just can't stay away from the driver's seat long enough to comment I guess...

Bob

cmike1

Hello all,

Interested in the WRX wagon - does anyone know where some pics and early reviews of this model are avaialble. Unfortunately, the subaru website lacks the pictures for this model. How much smaller is the interior as compared to the outback wagon?

Thanks!

thecat

Rich,
I was on vacation 4th - 11th and came back to a load of work. Don't quite understand how being gone 1 week generated 2 weeks of backlog. Some kinda time warp thing I guess.

As regards the Rex, I've only got 180 miles on it and won't be able to open it up until 1k. However, the little "Zooming" I've done leads me to the conclusion that it's cornering limits are well beyond my expectations. I turned onto a side street today at about 40 mph and .. well no big deal. No tire noise, no leaning, just goes where you point it. You can tell, even under mild acceleration, that it wants to GO! I'm still getting use to it. Plus, I don't want to come of as some Bozo .. "I've got a WRX .. nah nah" kinda thing. I'll keep you posted after I've had a chance to really use it for it's designed purpose.
- hutch

miksmi

Hi cmike, wagon photos are on Glenn Wallace's new-impreza.com site. As I mentioned on the chat, also consider the GT wagon if you like the Outback platform. The WRX wagon is more like a hatchback than a true wagon (though even the Legacy/Outback's rear slopes down). The Subaru with the squarest back (akin to a Volvo V70) is the Forester; it's also on the same (smaller) platform as the Impreza/WRX. BTW the photo "Subaru Crew at the Philly Show" on the Subaru Crew portal is a WRX wagon.

..Mike

amishra

hutch:

i guess i would pay $14,000 CDN extra over the TS wagon, if I could justify buying it over an OB and if I could afford it at this point, I cannot do either...

keep us updated on your wundercar

amishra

rsholland

Here's some info on the new Subaru/GM vehicle venture:

Bob

http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/gmsubaru319.htm

cmike1

Thanks for the help. I really like the size of the legacy & outback better, but all I keep hearing about is the lack of power when you need to pass someone and so on. Not that I want a hot rod, but coming from you since you have one, is this a legitimate concern? Also, are there any cheap mods that might help? I know there is a new V6 coming out, but not an option for me right now. Do the older outbacks have sunroofs or just the 00 models up? Thanks again!

mike in memphis

leomort

that GM has part of Subaru

If I wanted a GM piece of junk, I'd go buy GM car. I hope GM doesn't ruin it for Subaru. Sorry but I don't hold our American cars in high esteem.

Leo

ramon

OK before we go dissing the General, i want to remind you that without GM's money contribution to Subaru, I bet we still won't see any WRX. That exta x amount of millian helped Subaru's R&D to make the WRX pass emissions. I won't be surprised that the new WRX has a little GM parts in it too. GM is quite good with emissions technology.
GM is you....you .... you.... sorry I can't help it, GM put out a musical concert at the autoshow I went at Toronto.

miksmi

Bob, Thanks for the link. Gotta love references like:

What badge and where?

.. labeling the car as a Saab or a Pontiac rather than a Chevrolet makes the most sense. Saab and Pontiac would be more consistent with the premium nature of the Subaru brand, he said.

Well, except for the Pontiac reference.

..Mike

miksmi

cmike, Which do you prefer, auto or manual? On my wife's GT wagon with 5MT (5 speed manual transmission), acceleration with 2 adults and 2 young children is more than adequate for me; same with highway passing. I am always amazed at the amount of low-end torque of the 165hp Phase II 2.5l H-4 engine; off the line it just gets up and goes. I don't auto-cross and I don't have a lead foot but I occasionally drive the GT on a track so I familiar with the desire for "More power, Scotty". My instructor, who races an Acura Integra Type R (stock engine + suspension & brake mods), was surprised that the GT only had 4 cylinders (and on a portly wagon, no less). Mind you, it doesn't compare to the incredible 227hp turbocharged 2.0l WRX that my Morton-brandishing "friends" Hutch and Stephen have, but it's no slouch either.

paisan found that with 5 males that "have had a few good lunches" (hehe, whoever said that it just cracks me up), acceleration was inadequate; he bought an Isuzu Trooper instead, though he had towing requirements too.

Regarding an automatic GT (or Outback), I test drove one and understand why some feel it doesn't have enough power. I can tell the auto is marginally slower off the line but it wouldn't have deterred my purchase decision had I want an auto. I didn't like the shift points; that's an issue of the transmission electronics, not a lack of power. There are many, many satisfied Outback 4EAT (4 speed electronic automatic transmission) owners here.

If you think you'd like more power, try a 212hp H-6 Outback VDC or LLBean.

Regarding engine mods, you get for what you pay. In other words, cheap mods = cheap results = not worth it IMO. I'm not a fan of tweaking things that aren't broken. I'm a computer enginerd and I'd never tweak a nominally functioning production web server; I'd create an identical test box, test the tweak, then cut over the test machine into production. If the new production machine didn't meet expectations, it's easy to fall back to the old production machine. Notice I use two computers for this level of high availability. That's expensive with autos. The GT is my wife's daily ride, her "production" transportation and I've decided not to touch it. Well, some pedals for heel-toe downshifting would be nice but I need to find some compatible with my wife's high heeled shoes. OTOH if you're handy and don't mind a little aggravation when you make a mistake, mods are fun.

Others will chime with differing opinions. Unfortunately, they're wrong. Hmm, just thought of something. GT (Crew) owners never tweak their rides yet the Outback, Impreza, and Forester owners display a propensity for such behavior. Guess that says something about the satisfaction level of GT owners over the "others". Bwahaha, I'm just stirring the pot Ken/juice/ramon/Colin/Loosh; ignore me (if you can!).

On your test drive, take a notepad and record your observations of acceleration from a dead stop and at highway speed, with and without air conditioning.

I prefer the stiffer suspension (noticeable in the twisties) of the GT to an Outback but both are excellent vehicles. The beauty is that Subaru builds a sufficient number of models to satisfy a variety of consumer desires.

Please feel free to ask anything else and we'll try to help.

Cheers,

..Mike

subaru_team

but without GM, we probably would not be able to move as quickly with the STX from what I hear. And, our engines, our drive-line, I think it might just be okay? No, if they want to take our jobs, I MIGHT have a different opinion!

Patti

beanboy

conversation is taking place. I'm a bit disappointed about the WRX sporting similar guts and then some with the rest of the Impreza line, but I understand why it was done.

Since I want a wagon, the TS stock will be a step backwards in terms of performance parts (softer suspension, rear drums, smaller tires) versus what I have now, which is somewhat depressing.

The question is, since it is such a bargin, will I be content modding it over the years and happy with the results or should I just upe the ante from the beginning and get the WRX.

Waiting for the technical information regarding steering ratio numbers and actual differences in suspension and drivetrain (if any)between the various Impreza models before even coming close to making a decision. Also would like to see how the WRX motor takes to engine mods.

-Beanboy
Soobie Wanna-Be

paisan

As Mike (notice the caps) said above, I test drove it with 5 rather large paisano guys in it, and since my driving is rather speedy, I felt it wasn't peppy enough with 5 people + Gear + 2000 or 2500lb boat trailer for me. Most people it will be more than adequet, my cousin has an OB and loves it.

-mike

barresa62

But I don't have my WRX wagon,....yet. Hopefully sometime this week. Another boat came in today and takes a couple of days to get to the dealer.

Stephen

amishra

WRX refugees from Japan... (sorry couldn't resist)

miksmi

hehe, mike. Stephen, even I'm getting anxious for the arrival of yours; I want to hear your report, as Hutch keeps teasing us with snippets. Ash, good one. Noticed you've already changed flags. Not anxious for the UK, are ye?

..Mike

ateixeira

cmike: time to write your very own wagon review. Time for a test drive.

Take the family with you. Drive it on roads you're likely to drive regularly. Only this will answer if its powerful enough for you needs (heck yes!).

Though it has sportback styling, the WRX is still a wagon for one simple reason - it does not share a roof with the sedan version. Note in the photo on the Subaru Crew main page how the roof extends beyond the sedan's.

Hatchbacks are sedan with a glass hatch attached. Remember the early Geo Prizm, and the Mazda 626 (turbo, even)?

Patti: that's fine with me. A Saab Forester Plus sounds kind of fun, actually. Given the mechanicals are pure Subaru, it'll be built at SIA, and GM will only make more of them available, that's fine with this Crew Chief!

In fact, Garry Grimes will LOVE it! He runs SCOA (Subaru Club of America) as well as a Saab club!

-juice

ramon

Subaru of Canada just invited me along with a few other club members to test drive the new WRX next month. There's gonna me slaloms, skidpads and what not. Whoohoo.... time to trash the car abit. I'll let u know what I think.

miksmi

Sounds like fun, Alwin! An invite from SoC? Not bad, not bad.

..Mike

cmike1

miksmi - I'm with you, I don't care too much for mods, unless of course they are interior/exterior with styling. All the engine/electronic stuff I would rather not mess with.

I really just want an automatic- which I why I had mentioned about the lack of umph - I really don't think it is that big of a deal, but I do like to be able to pass effectively when the idiot in front of me keeps slowing down (or is that me speeding up?!?)

If I had not already mentioned, money is a factor and I am looking for a used model in good condition. The H6 VDC or Bean - are those models only available from 2000 on? And the Legacy GT wagon - is there a 6 cyliner option on anything before 2000 - are they basically the same options as the OB's?

Basically, I want the room of the legacy/outback in an automatic to have enough pep when called upon. Thanks for everyone's continued advice - I think this is a great forum!

mike in memphis

kostamojen2

My parents have a My00 Legacy GT Limited Sedan Automatic, and yes, it does bog down off the line...

But, that happens not just because of the gearing, but because of the 90/10 power distribution being pushed towards more power in the rear wheels. As a result, the car bogs down when you try to floor it in the Auto from a stop. The 0-30mph times in the car are pretty sucky...

However, everything after that is surprizingly quick ive found! After the car gets going, the 166lbs of torque and 165hp in the H4 are PLENTY of power in the auto. Its not a racer mind you, but its got great mid and high range for a 4-cyl engine.
One time I was driving on a 2 lane road, with 2 other people in the car and a full truck of luggage, and there was a slow truck in front of me... I decided to pass, and floored it to the ground to go around and ZOOM! MUCH more power than both the 6cyl olds and 6cyl aerostar we have for passing. It very quickly gets up to 90+mph from the 55-60mph area, I'm very impressed with it!

ateixeira

Sweet! Slalom and all? Reminds me of Edmunds Live.

The Bean and VDC models are brand new (came out in October), so don't count on finding used samples.

-juice

francophile

Others are filling you in on the joy that is Subie ownership, so I'm going to leave that part of it alone. To answer your more technical questions:

The H6 VDC or Bean - are those models only available from 2000 on?

I believe they were labeled 2001 models, but they are definitely only available in the newest Legacy body style. They are also brand new, so new that finding a used one will probably be difficult. You might try looking to leasing companies to find one whose owner stopped paying, or to dealers for demo models, but your choice in used H6 Subie Legacies is going to be very, very limited.

And the Legacy GT wagon - is there a 6 cyliner option on anything before 2000

There is no H6 in ANY GT. We're lobbying hard for a turbo 4 cylinder option here on the Edmunds boards, but at this point in time all the H6 motors are going into Outback wagons.

- are they basically the same options as the OB's?

The OB's have a cold weather package and I believe a couple of other options that the GT does not have. Beyond that the option lists are identical. The GT is a pretty well appointed car, so not too many options are actually needed.

Basically, I want the room of the legacy/outback in an automatic to have enough pep when called upon.

You might want to think about a Forester. They have the 2.5 liter H4 motor, same as the Legacy, and they're a bit lighter. They are built on a smaller platform, but the roofline is higher, so the interiors feel spacious and they haul cargo very nicely. They drive like a car too, in fact they drive like a Subaru which is even better!

Another choice would be a '97-'99 Legacy wagon, either L or GT. Handsome cars, roomy, AWD, 2.5 liter DOHC 4 cylinder motor. The '00 models were an improvement over them, but that doesn't mean the earlier models were bad cars. They were very good cars, and the '00 had to really go some to be better. I'm sure you can find '97-'99 models with sunroofs too.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out!

Cheers,
-wdb

paisan

will be faster IMHO than the 2000+ ones. Lighter with similar HP. More nimble too.

-mike

miksmi

Re: kostamojen2 Mar 19, 2001 8:54pm

kostamojen2> 90/10 power distribution being pushed towards more power in the rear wheels.

kosta, I think it's 90% front, 10% rear. I'm more inclined to think the auto is slower off the line than manual due to the mechanical inefficiency of a torque converter (auto) over a clutch (manual). A fluid coupling (TC) loses more energy than a clutch (flywheel/pressure plate). See HowStuffWorks.com's torque converter, clutches, and transmissions.

Mechanical loss in an auto tranny's TC is common to all vehicles, though I imagine some are more efficient than others.

I'm not a mechanical engineer but last night I slept in a Holiday Inn.

..Mike

francophile

I think he was referring to the fact that the center diffy allegedly shifts the power from 90f/10r to some other distribution as the car accelerates. (I say "allegedly" because I've more different stories about this than just about any other single Subie feature.) I don't know how much power is lost to the center diffy, but it's more than zero, and it might be more when it is active than when it is just sitting there, sleeping, like it was at a Holiday Inn or something.

Cheers,
-wdb

miksmi

WDB thanks for catching that. hehe HI right back at me. Saw the one where a bespectacled, tie-clad man barks out orders in the control room of an overheating nuclear reactor while jamming on a doughnut with sprinkles. The core temperature drops and the control room bursts out cheering. Are you the new supervisor (or somthing like that)? No, but last night I slept in a Holiday Inn.

ungh, he said doughnut.

..Mike

FrankMc

is that I slept in a Holiday Inn Express. It looks like they are wasting their Ad dollars.

Frank

ramon

OK got another loaner Forester again today as I brought my car in to have some scratches removed (under warranty). So I took the Forester to work. As i was driving I notice that the center seat belt it hanging off the rear ceiling! Wasup with that! It's such an awkward position! And the 3 head rests really obstructed my rear view. And lastly, the digital clock on the top centre console by the ceiling is quite annoying since it requires he driver to move his/her head from the front sight to look up at the clock. I think that's the only thing I didn't like about the Forester.
Oh it came with a tape or was it CD? Anyways I can't find the bass/treble/fade/balance tuner! I think it's missing. Oh well....

kostamojen2

90/10:front/rear
The power is diverted through the center diff when you accellerate hard to the rear wheels to get more grip, and that can cause some lag when you do it "Suddenly".
But your right, the rest of the auto's problems cause that first shift to be rather nasty, causing some initial luggishness :P (new word! )

And if you want to see what ALL automatics should be, go test drive a new A4 V6 with that CVT automatic transmition... It will kick the Manual's [non-permissible content removed] any day cause it puts maximum power down all the time

amishra

hey ramon, what country does your flag represent?
i wish i could put two flags on here... (one for where I'm from, and one for where I am)

bluesubie

The new Impreza wagons have 3 head rests as well. I believe it's easy to remove the center one and maybe the shoulder belt that's in the way.
How did you get scratches removed under warranty? That must be some mega-warranty gold or something.
And yeah, what flag is that?
Dennis

locke2c

I think it's Afghanistan. I believe his flag should be Canada or Malaysia. ;-)

-Colin

bluesubie

Yeah, it's Afghanistan! I knew he had mentioned on the i-club once that he's Asian. Maybe a Malaysian from Afghanistan that now lives in Canada? :-)

Dennis

ramon

i have a complicated life. And dear 'ol colin who knows me so well. Bless his little heart.
I'm a Malaysian who now lives in Canada. OK off to search for different flags....

about the scratch warranty, the scratch was found when i picked up my car. I'm making them give me a subaru jacket too for that! hahahaha...

kate5000

A couple more suggestions for the new Forester:

a) a bit larger rear-view mirror (my old Loyale has a great one -- I call it "wide-screen movie", rear visibility is super)
b) door lock mounted on the handle assembly, so that there is no extra hole in the door.
c) just a tad taller vehicle would look a lot nicer (but please keep the gravity center low). At EdmundsLive event, all negative comments I've heard regarding the Forester, were about it being too low for an SUV.

Actually, does anyone know whether a new 2003 larger Forester will be a replacement for existing line, or will the new "Grand Forester" co-exist with an updated version of the currently small Forester?

--Kate
(also with a compicated life and even more compicated gene pool :-)

kate5000

Hey, I just noticed that my little flag perfectly matches the yellow-blue color schema of the edmunds site!

armac13

the Forester isn't an SUV, it's a tall, small wagon - just what I wanted, just what I got! :~)

Ross

miksmi

Frank, you're right, it's Holiday Inn Express. Can you join us for the 29 April central PA covered bridge tour (see events)?

kosta, A4 V6 with CVT automatic transmission? Interesting. Subaru was an early adopter of belt CVTs (as was its partner Nissan). It's used in the Justy (formerly marketed in NA).

Mark Wan has an excellent, simple explanation of the various CVT (Continuous Variable Transmission):
www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/lancia/58/technical_school/gearbox/tech_gear.htm#CVT
Read that first. (Apologies for the long URL; what's the workaround for URLs greater than 100 chars?)

Here's an article on AudiWorld: Audi A6: Multitronic now with two further engine versions (nice cutaway views). From this enginerd's view, I think the Nissan Extroid CVT shows the most potential (the rollers seem to be simpler/more efficient than Audi's chain).

Want to see the Audio Multitronic CVT in action? See this animated GIF: select Technology (right column), Plate link chain. That URL is buried in the Audi site; if it doesn't work, try Audi, models (top gray button), Multitronic (third column), scroll to bottom, Audi Multitronic, new window opens, Technology (right column), Plate link chain.

kosta, thanks for inspiring my diversion.

..Mike

ateixeira

ramon: that belt is the shoulder belt for the rear center. At least it has one, most others in its class only have a lap belt (plus no head rest) in the center.

You must not be as tall as me. I love the center console clock. Plus, you can keep the radio display on the station, so you know what you're listening to. It's one of my favorite features, actually.

If your Forester is an S, it has a tape and a CD changer, actually. Nice. And the adjustments you mentioned are there, but I'll let you RTFM for that info.

;-)

Jacket sounds great. I'm jealous!

Kate: 2 separate models. 2003 Forester, 2005 Big SUW. Hurry up, Subaru!

-juice

francophile

[edited after reading a bit more about the Audi CVT]

Wow.

Mikesmi, great links (no pun intended). The Audi site's description is at once basic and very thorough; every time I came up with a question--like "Whoa, steel on steel? The pressure holding the pulleys against the chain must be tremendous!", or, "That thing must wear like mad", I was able to find the answer by poking around a bit more. It's an amazing mix of mechanical, hydraulic, and metallurgical technology, and they handsomely enhance it with software. They offer various, driver-selectable programs so that, for example, the transmission can pretend to "shift" like a conventional transmission; the driver can even decide whether or not they want to feel a jerk or jolt when the "shift" happens. Brilliant.

If that transmission works and holds up over the long term, it will change a lot more than just transmission technology. Engines will change too, because they'll no longer have to try to operate as efficently across a large RPM range. They'll be able to tune them in for maximum efficiency within a very narrow band. Braking might change, because engine braking will not be a "given" anymore. And cupholders will change, because they will no longer have to stay out of the way of the driver's shifting arm ;-)

I'm kidding, but only a little bit.

Wow.

Cheers,
-wdb

ramon

i know the need for a shoulder belt but the placement of it is really odd. Can't they build one that comes off the rear seats instead of the ceiling?
I much prefer the clock on the dash like all the Imprezs. I don't have to keep my eye off the road. I ain't too tall ~ 5'8". Good height for a little Impreza tho.
So u mean to tell me that the stock tape deck does not have bass/treble/fade/balance control?! Even my old OBS had it in its stock tape deck... Interesting. I do like the temperature gauge tho. Quite entertaining.

soon2bsubee

I love that new flag...Swaziland?

armac13

the CD/tape/radio does have bass/treble/etc. controls!! As Juice said, you have to RTFM (read the manual).

Ross