Subaru Crew - Future Models II

bluesubie

I'm surprised they dropped the 2.2l. I thought that it would've remained in the TS. I believe the EPA fuel ratings on my OBS are 22/30 (or something like that).
Dennis

ateixeira

I think the OBS I drove was 21/27 for the 5 speed. The old ones were a bit better, I think, and Subaru was exactly at the limit before, so they may pay fines now.

However, CAFE works in strange ways. You can accumulate credit from past years, and carry debts into future years. Who knows.

-juice

leomort

penalities??

Leo

locke2c

I think it's Corporate Average Fuel Economy... or something to that effect. It states the minimum average fuel economy that must be attained without paying penalties.

Medium-duty trucks and SUVs are currently excluded under "work" pretenses, even though vast numbers of them are sold each year for personal use.

-Colin

paisan

They just have a lower threshold on the #s.

-mike

locke2c

Wrong, medium duty trucks are totally exempt-- look at the window sticker on a Ford F350 or Excursion and you'll see *no* EPA fuel economy numbers.

-Colin

paisan

I thought you meant the SUVs... I was just reading the "I hate SUVS, why do you like them" topic

-mike

ateixeira

Cars have to average 27.5 mpg, but (light) trucks only 20.7 mpg.

All Subies are cars, so they don't catch the break that other manufacturers do. They were exactly at 27.5 last year, and given the 2.2l was dropped and the H6 and turbos showed up, I'm not sure how they'll meet the standard.

-juice

beanboy

Subaru needs a 5AT first I assume. With that said, I think Subaru from a marketing standpoint could work well with a hybrid in their lineup. WHole better for the environment while still enjoying the outdoors kinda thing. Not talking about a one-off model, more like what Ford and DC SUVs are doing by offering the smallest motor that usually comes with the truck (3.9L V6 in Durango for example) combined with an electric motor for AWD when needed. Will supposedly up fuel economy by 3-5 mpg.

ateixeira

That "through the road" 4WD sounds kind of interesting, but Subaru has a very specific AWD system and touts it in every brochure, ad, you name it. How could they remain consistent?

I agree - 5 speed auto trans first. That could even help highway mileage - a lot.

-juice

bluesubie

But what would that do to the cost?
Are there many 5-speed autos out there in the below to mid $20k price range?
Dennis

ateixeira

Passat 1.8T, Passat V6, and Audi 1.8T Quattro come to mind immediately.

-juice

paisan

The Audis aren't mid $20K range

-mike

ateixeira

MSRP for an A4 Quattro 1.8T is $26,290 plus $1100 for 5EAT. $27,390 is still mid 20s, and that's full retail.

The point is, Passat almost always comes up as an alternative to Subarus when people are shopping around, more so than the Audi.

-juice

paisan

Add in a few options and you are well over $30K and there is zero dealer holdback on Audis

-mike
twisting juice's nutz a bit this morning!

rsholland

The Passat comes with a 5-speed automatic, with tip-tronic. So far that's it in the mid-$20K range. However, you can bet your first born that more 5-speed automatics are on the way for other so-called mainstream cars. A 5-speed automatic would offer better performance, and since Subaru is moving towards a "performance" image for the brand, they should be leading the charge.

Mercedes and BMW will shortly launch 6-speed automatics on some of their models within a couple of years. That's already been announced.

Bob

bluesubie

Exactly.
And I should've included "cars with above average reliability".
Yeah, people do cross-shop VW, Audi and Subes now.

"Subaru needs to be there" on other issues as well. Like power. I think they're catching up slowly.

Dennis

ateixeira

OK Dennis, you got me. There are none at that price range, then! ;-)

I dunno, the WRX blows by any Audi rather quickly!

-juice

lark6

I have to second Dennis on #1419. Once I convinced myself that I didn't need a pickup truck, I cross-shopped Audi and Volvo (very briefly). It wasn't long before my wallet and my common sense (recalling expensive VW repairs!) told me I should consider something in the Subaru line. I imagine it won't be long before entry-level BMW 3-series shoppers look at Subaru as well.

Ed

barresa62

With the economy cooling off (I didn't say "recession") potential buyers of 3-series Bimmers, higher end Audi A4's, etc will maybe second guess the wisdom of their purchases. Having already been bitten by the new car bug they will say something like "maybe I should consider a Subaru..it's more financially prudent, etc") Long story short, they end up w/a Subaru, having tightened in the spending reins and are all proud of their financial prowness. They soon realize that this is the car they should have ended up with in the first place regardless of their financial portfolio. The inherent goodness of the Subaru comes shining through. SOA gains new customers and a revised customer base. We, the current owners, welcome the newbies to the fold, smiling with that all-knowing smile (and trying not to be too smug...ok maybe that's me).
Just my imagination running free....:-)

Stephen

subearu

The current Acura TL body came out in '99. That first year, it had a 4 speed auto with sport shift. The following year, they made it a 5 speed auto with sport shift. Doing that, they managed to get a bit more HP and 1-2 MPG highway out of it.

That's the only example I have. I think it would provide similar results for Subaru too! Imagine what adding 1 MPG or so to their CAFE numbers - oh, wait, that's a different thread.

Wondering what a 5 speed auto would do to a H6...

-Brian

rsholland

Nothing but good.

Bob

nygreg

To make sure on our decision for an OB, I showed (reluctantly) the Passat to my wife. She didn't like it. Finally, I showed her the A4 being very scared she would like it. Her response - I want the OB in Winestone.:)) I know I married her for a reason After nag.....discussing it with her we have decided now is the time to buy. The fun begins!

-Greg

locke2c

Brian, in its current state of tune on paper the EZ30 H6 has a very flat torque curve. I don't own one but test drove one fairly extensively (failed attempt to convince family member to purchase) and the torque curve doesn't seem all that broad to me. It seems like it has considerably more high RPM punch, or considerably less low RPM if you're a pessimist. Anyway, I too think it would benefit from a 5spd -- automatic or manual. A six speed manual would be really nice in an H6 Legacy GT.

-Colin

ateixeira

A 5 speed auto could be geared so that first is a little shorter, and 5th is a little taller than the current 4th.

In other words, it could be quicker AND more fuel efficient.

No doubt - we'd all like to see it.

-juice

leomort

do you think Subaru will offer rebates and special financing on their 2002 Foresters towards end of year when the revise 2003 Forester is due?

Leo

armac13

congratulations on your choices. The car should work out well. The wife choice sounds marvelous.

Ross

ateixeira

Financing, yes. They've offered it before, so I don't see why not.

Rebates? Never before, so that's a tough call. They also cut production in Gunma to build more WRXs, so supply will be short (and demand has always been high).

Roll the dice. My guess is probably not, and even if they do it would be small ($500).

-juice

rsholland

simply mean better/closer gear splits. Since the H-6 performs considerably better at higher rpm, it means that more (and closer) gear splits will keep the engine on boil easier. There will be less drop off in revs between shifts.

Bob

francophile

According to #1421, by lark6:

I imagine it won't be long before entry-level BMW 3-series shoppers look at Subaru as well.

*wave* That's me. The Bimmer was a sweet drive, but it was a "stripper" compared to the Subie; adding enough good stuff pushed the price over $30k in a flash. Plus it had a tight back seat, plus the dealer barely paid attention to me--after all, I was only looking at a 3-series, plus they didn't even want to talk discount from MSRP.

I bought a Legacy GT instead. I got 95% of the car for 66% of the money.

Regards,
-wdb

leomort

juice,

what type of special financing? lower than they're currently offering:3.9% 2 years; 5.9% 3-4 years; 6.9% 5 years. Never really looked into Subarus until recently so I don't know if they do better than this or not.

Leo

locke2c

The backseat is quite cramped, no doubt about it. But I've driven an E30 M3, E30 325, E36 328 and an E46 323 (mis-badged 325)... Do you really think the Legacy GT is 95% the car that the E46 323 is? I don't think so. 85%, maybe. Better value, absolutely.

-Colin

ateixeira

That is as good as I've seen for the Foreseter.

I gotta hand it to you, you've really been doing your home work. L vs. S, financing, incentives. Way to go.

The 2002s are about to arrive, and I've seen no changes in incentives for the 2001s. Given the 2002 has DRLs, the cargo cover free, and the intermittent rear wiper, all for only $30 more in freight charges, I'd go for that.

The S has rear disc brakes, 16" alloys, rear LSD, heated everything, and a 6 CD changer. Spring for the premium and get the moonroof and side air bags. That's a pretty complete package if you plan on keeping it for a long time.

If you only keep it for a short period (2 years, say), then get an L and then consider upgrading to an S when the 2003s come out. Resale is good so you won't lose much, and then you'll really have a long-term keeper.

-juice

kens

The S Premium is nice, but I've read that it's only going to be offered in auto in 2002.

Ken

ateixeira

Actually, it's the leather option on the Premium that comes only with automatic. At least that's how I read this article:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010329/phth019.html

5 speed drivers probably drive more aggressively, and so the grippy cloth isn't a bad idea for those drivers. Still, Subaru should offer the choice.

-juice

kens

Ah, thanks for the correction. That auto-only option sounds similar to what they did back when they first offered the OB Limiteds w/sunroofs. You could only get them with with AT.

Ken

rsholland

one bit if the '02 Legacy GT Limited (with leather) comes only with an automatic. How may 5-speed Legacy GTs Limited have you seen on dealer lots? I'd be surprised if it's 10%, if that, of that model.

Bob

yellowbikedon

From what I hear, 5 speeds account for approximately 10% of Subaru production with the exception of the WRX. I'm told SOA was amazed the percentages were reversed for the initial orders!

BTW, my wife drove my LL Beaner for the first time and complained it was "boring." I should have expected that from a 5 speed Impreza owner!

Don

locke2c

That simply cannot be correct, Don. Any part of it...

There were something like 65%/35% 5spd/automatics for the '98 Impreza 2.5RS and MANY automatics sat around for a year or more. They learned with 99, and greatly reduced the automatic percentage...

I doubt if they would make the same mistake with the WRX. The will attract new customers, but the vast majority of those new customers will do the right thing and demand a manual transmission.

-Colin

kostamojen2

...CVT transmition?
With the new Audi A4 auto and the new Saturn S series and even a few other cars are coming out with CVT (Continuously Variable Transmitions) would it be a good Idea to develop and put one into their cars?

I mean, wouldnt a CVT kick [non-permissible content removed] on a WRX! It would keep the Turbo spooled up constantly

paisan

IMHO an un-proven technology is not what Subaru needs in it's lineup. Let the big guys test it out, and work out the kinks in the technology before putting it into my car I rather have a less efficient, more reliable vehicle.

-mike

bluesubie

Hopefully our favorite SOA rep. is forwarding these comments to product planning.

leomort

juice,

I try to research my next prospective vehicle.(First time to do this).

I have a wierd selection of cars. Looking at HB due to their versatility and utility not to mention good gas mileage. The only mini-SUV considered are Toyota RAV4 and Subaru Forester.

Regarding the HB. Looked at VW Golf 1.8t GLS which runs around 20 grand and requires premium gas. Mazda Protege 5 which with the options I want will run around 19 grand. Since I'd more than likely be buying in 2002, the Toyota Matrix would also be a consideration which should run around 18/19 grand. The Hyunadia Elantra GT is also consider since it a value leader coming in around 15/16 grand.

Since these HB are running around the 19 grand mark, figure might as well look at the RAV4 and Forester for a few thousand more.

Leo

locke2c

And the ironic thing is that the automatic Subaru Justy-- granted, 1.3L of 3 cylinder joy-- used a CVT way back in the day...

-Colin

paisan

Pre-runner to the festiva and Metro!

I guess I'm just sore about the bleeding edge technology used in my XT6 and how it has not exactly worked out very well...

-mike

francophile

Colin, I owned a 2002 years and years ago, when it was almost new. My experience with Bimmer ownership is therefore a bit long in the tooth. However that car was a niggler, always had little things wrong, plus it had a few biggies like a 2nd gear synchro that lasted roughly 2 weeks. I based my rating on my test drive of a 323 standard package, no AWD, no sport stuff, no luxo stuff. That and my expectation of the driving and ownership satisfaction level over the life of the vehicle. I don't know how an AWD Bimmer drives, but at $33k for a similarly equipped car I think I have *that* percentage right :-) Tell you what - let's compromise at 90%.

Justys are cute! I still see them around here. Very popular cars among the cheapskate PA dutchies (said with complete respect - I'm pretty cheap myself - after all, I went with the Subie and not the Bimmer ). I also see a lot of L Subies, also very popular, also kept forever and a day by their owners. That is a tremendously solid base from which Subaru can launch performance and higher class lines; however IMHO they must always remember their roots. A Subie is at its core a value purchase, not a luxury purchase. In the US at any rate.

Cheers,
-wdb

yellowbikedon

Colin,

My error, you're correct! I should have said here in the Midwest, the ratio of autos to 5 speeds is about 90%-10%. Obviously, my statemenmt didn't take into account the Colorado and Pacific NW markets! Thanks for your correction!

Don

kens

I was also told that only 10% of all Subaru vehicles manufactured for N. America were 5-speeds when I was shopping for my Forester. I remember dealers trying to sell me automatics telling me that it's safer.

One thing I have noticed is that all the WRXs that have been tested by car magazines have been 5-speeds. Most other models (OB, GT, Forester) have usually been auto trannys.

CVT isn't unproven technology. Like Colin posted, it's been in use for some time. I think it's more consumer perception that has slowed it's transition to a mainstream market. Some of the new A4s will have CVT, if I remember correctly.

Ken

rsholland

I'm sure the percentage of 5-speed manuals is much higher for Imprezas, than the rest of the Subaru range. Even more so this year, with the advent of the WRX.

If you only consider Foresters and Legacys/Outbacks, I bet at least 90% of them are automatics. That's shame.

Patti- can you confirm these percentages? Automatic vs. manual, per model line for MY2000?

Bob

subaru_team

to Product Planning, because I know you want me to, but, our's in the Justy (ECVT - just add electronic) was not that popular. I kind of doubt that they will re-visit that within the near future.

Thanks for sharing the information and keep it comin'!

Patti