Subaru Crew - Future Models II

p0926

From Sal's list the only two items I'd really like to see is the trip computer and the audio controls on the steering wheel. Everything else is either superfluous (back-up camera), gimmicky (karaoke) or already available via a more versatile source (I.e. cel phones/PDAs give you Internet, phone, email etc). For the navigationally challenged, I can see where a Nav unit would be a worthwhile option but as has been previously pointed out, a portable unit is cheaper and more practical since you can move it from car to car.

-Frank

salbaby1972

Oh my gosh! I never thought I'd see my name and Ford in the same sentance! heheee

I was assuming that Subaru already had a good product (which they do).

Yes many of these things are over-the-top, but many upmarket makers have them or will have them. Subaru has to join them, bacause they can't beat them.

I agree, many of us don't want these things. Subaru can package them in 1 or 2 electronics packages for a person who loves toys to buy. It would be an easy margin builder for Subaru. They also can offer cars without these toys as many of the premium makers do.

locke2c

heh. dubs = 22" wheels (double 2). 20s are big enough on a forester though, I think.

~c

rsholland

2.5 RS Sedan Sport Package
Also new for 2005 is a 2.5 RS Sedan Sport Package model with all the 2.5 RS equipment plus body color ground effects, aluminum-alloy pedal covers on five-speed manual transmission models, AM/FM 140-watt premium stereo with six-disc in-dash CD changer and six upgraded speakers, body color mirrors, new performance design front seats, a Momo® leather-wrapped steering wheel, leather-wrapped parking brake handle, sport design instrumentation and STi type fog light insert covers. The new 2.5 RS Sport Package with five-speed manual has an MSRP of $18,995 and the four-speed automatic transmission MSRP is $19,795.
 
Outback Sport Special Edition
Also new to the 2005 Impreza lineup is the Outback Sport Special Edition. This model receives additional equipment including leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob, rear spoiler, armrest extension, auto-dimming compass mirror, 260-watt premium audio system that includes an AM/FM stereo with six-disc in-dash CD changer, six upgraded speakers and a subwoofer. The Outback Sport Special Edition package is attractively priced at an MSRP of $500.  The Outback Sport Special Edition model is offered at an MSRP of $19,395 for the five-speed manual and $20,195 for the automatic.

Often Subaru tips their hand with these types of subtle upgrades, as to what the future holds for these trim levels. It sounds to me that Subaru, with future versions of these models, is moving them gradually up-market. I think this is good, as only the WRX & STi have been the focus of attention recently. These models have more or less receded into the (marketing) background. It's good to see that Subaru has not forgotten them, and that they do have a place in the future.

Bob

ateixeira

Sorry, low blow. LOL

What I'm afraid of is that Subaru moves upscale and leaves value customers like me behind. I honestly don't think I could talk my wife into a $30k+ vehicle no matter how good it is.

And right now, to get anything at all close to $20 grand you're buying a compact.

It's not that we can't afford it, it's just she'd rather put our funds towards other things.

Colin: you sure? I thought it was dub=20", dub duece=22".

-juice

salbaby1972

I hear you man... 30K is not what it used to be. I'm sure Subaru can't and won't price their cars like Lexus, BMW or even worse Merc.

MAKE SURE you adjust that 30K for inflation when your ready to buy. It's a valid argument. Right?

My feeling is that they are targeting the value premium market that Acura takes up.

About the G-Book, Japan is about 5-10 years ahead of the US in cell phones and car nav gizmos. I don't think we'll see the real G-Book in the 7 maybe a USDM Lexus like system.

ateixeira

I don't think she'll give me that leeway. She's expecting a $25k purchase next time around, probably 2-3 years from now.

Hopefully I can get $2000 saved up in Subaru Bucks and squeeze a little into the 7 seater.

-juice

p0926

The invoice on a 05 Forester XT PP MT is just a hair over $25k ;-)
<nudge nudge> <wobble wobble>

-Frank

ateixeira

About a year from now, it'll be on my short list. Look at the '04 prices.

-juice

p0926

Was going to but figured you would want the moonroof MT combo.

-Frank

rsholland

I see the XT's fuel ratings are up slightly.
      
Fuel Economy (city/highway) Manual: 19/24 mpg, Automatic: 20/23 mpg

I wonder if they re-geared it?

Bob       

rsholland

It's been reported that the Halifax will have a 250 HP H-6. What hasn't been reported is the displacement. Everybody seems to be assuming that it will be the engine from the H-6 Outbacks. I'm not so sure about that...

H-6? Yes. 250 HP? Probably. 3.0? I don't think so. Here's why: 250 HP is certainly adequate, but 219 torque is not. I think this vehicle will need ~ 250 torque to match it's increased size, weight and payload, not to mention a most likely higher still tow rating. I just don't think the current 3.0 will cut it.

I'm betting it will be an all-new 3.5L H-6 (not a bored and/or stroked 3.0) with 250 HP and 250 torque. BTW, I was at a dealer today who also volunteered/mentioned a 3.5L engine for this vehicle.

Bob

ateixeira

19/24 is better than the Outback MT, I believe. That's 2 mpg city and 1 mpg highway improvement over the '04. All from throttle tuning?

20/23 actually meets my idealistic standard of 20 mpg or better city. Hmm, add Sportshift and that'll squeeze onto my short list.

Funny though, compared to OB XT is gets 1 mpg better city but 1 mpg worse highway. Odd.

-juice

locke2c

honestly I think a naturally aspirated 3.5L H6 would still be inadequate for that vehicle assuming it is of the size and weight of most competitors. (and not jr. sized like the suzuki XL7.)

it wouldn't surprise me at all then to have a 3.0 or 3.5L NA engine as the base and then adding a light-pressure turbo as the optional engine.

~c

rsholland

it wouldn't surprise me at all then to have a 3.0 or 3.5L NA engine as the base and then adding a light-pressure turbo as the optional engine.

Colin, I think that's the game plan. One report I read mentioned a turbo option to debut a year later.

Bob

locke2c

that has been the subaru way in the past but I think it's a mistake. I think they should release both versions in the same model year. all the test reports, the enthusiasm, the excitement all is based on the higher end model... and then economics will naturally steer some towards the base engine.

I think it's a huge mistake to try to upsell the better engine a model year later, after everyone already has their first impression of the vehicle.

~c

rsholland

and I agree wholeheartedly.

Bob

rsholland

and this probably how SOA views it, is that they get two years, and not just one year of being high on the automotive "headline" listings. AKA: milking it for all it's worth.

Bob

rsholland

3.5 H-6 turbo (high-boost) would make for a very tasty Legacy STi.

Bob

salbaby1972

The Audi allroad has a biturbo V6 that produces 250 hp and 258 lb/ft torque at 1850-3600 rpm with a 5EAT with a curb weight of 4244 lbs. 0-60 tiptronic at 7.3 sec. We had one, and that heavy thing can move!

An 250 H6 maybe (Lexus/Toyota) adequate if tuned like the Audi V6 biturbo.

But I feel the same way, they should make a huge splash with the turbo bell-and-whistles model first year.

ateixeira

I agree with Colin, in fact I just said that about the Grand Am replacement in another thread - launch the car with the *best* powertrain first. That creates the biggest buzz at the launch.

Do the opposite of GM. Get it right first, then you won't have to cancel it.

Having said that, I think only the base model would be in my price range, but that's fine. The 3.5l in the MDX and Pilot don't feel at all slow.

-juice

tincup47

Look at it from the manufacturers point of view, nowdays you have to have upgrades available every year this vehicle is sold, both in performance and trim. It has become a market of the latest, hottest vehicles selling the best. If you put your best in this year, what do you offer as an improvement next year? Your competition is probably on a different model progression than you are, how do you compete in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year? Given the development times in powertrains along with the compliance issues, you can't upgrade every year unless you start at a lower performance point.
 Look at Subaru, 2 years ago the WRX was the hot thing, then Mitsubishi upped the ante with the EVO, Subaru counters with the STI and kept the enthusiasts that worship the HP wars. Is the WRX any less of a car than it was? Not really, but it is no longer the newest and baddest.
 Small companies have to follow strategies like this to keep interest alive and the car mags coming back to test and publicise their vehicles. How many tests have you seen of the WRX since the STI supplanted it? Would you have seen anything on the Impreza last year if Subaru had not brought out the STI? The smart small manufacturer goes for long term continuous buzz, it's better for business.

ateixeira

Welcome, Devil's Advocate. ;-)

True, but how will Subaru stand out from the crowd if it's, say, a slightly underpowered 3.0l H6 with "upscale" pricing?

Rebates?

Look at the MDX, to this day it's a strong seller in high demand, because they got it right early on and have only need very minor enhancements since then.

Pilot hasn't needed any powertrain upgrades. Odyssey got a power boost and 30 more HP but that's since 1999.

-juice

tincup47

The only reason this is in "High" demand is the fact that Acura keeps the numbers they build low. YTD their sales are flat and less than 1,000 more than the Forester. There is more to buzz than HP, especially to the non-enthusiast that makes up the bulk of the car buying public. The new very attractive styling and upgraded interior will sway more of these buyers than 0-60 times. So will interior room and functionality. The fact that it is new and has more horsepower than the model it replaces will get it the road tests and comparisons in the press.
 It certainly isn't a science trying to market to the masses, there isn't any one formula guaranteed to work.

ateixeira

Honda just got the US plant to produce Pilots and MDXs, so if supply was held back in the past, not any more. We'll see.

It's hard to compare volume to the Forester, because it's selling for nearly twice the price.

Here's the thing, if the Halifax does price out at $40k loaded up, it had better knock the socks off the competition, and the H6 turbo just might be the ticket. Noone would complain about price if it led the segment in performance.

If it's an also-ran, people will scream and cry about even $35k prices.

-juice

rangner

Yeah it could go head to head with the turbo XC90 or be a cheaper alternative to the Cayenne Turbo. Go for performance!

Eric

tincup47

It just might do that. But probably Subaru is looking at this as a lower volume vehicle anyway. The Volvo XC90 broke no new ground with it's introduction and isn't an class leader in HP (at least in standard trim, which is the bulk of it's sales), but it's selling in numbers that have Volvo ecstatic (and is making plenty of profit, one of the benefits of selling higher priced vehicles). If the vehicle is attractive (not like the photochops I've seen), has decent power and functionality, and has the latest electronic toys inside, it should do fine for Subaru. Will it be the next must have, like the P.T. Cruiser? I doubt it, but those don't happen for a company very often.

rsholland

has historically followed the path that Chuck has just outlined. Every year there are some small (or big) improvements to each model line. It's worked well for them, so I don't think we'll see that change.

Bob

tincup47

Conservative works better for small manufacturers. They generally cannot afford to go all out like the bigger guys do. The risks are potentially much higher also, as they have fewer choices in the marketplace to help carry a slow moving model. Subaru's move upmarket will have to go slowly. I certainly can see where the price point talked about will limit business from their present customers. It may just be too big of a jump for them to make it work. Time will tell.

rsholland

Just look how the Baja was mis-marketed. Subaru can't afford another "Baja" with the Halifax.

Speaking of the Baja, Subaru seems to be on the right path with this model (now), but it has been torturously slow, and they still have a long ways to go before they have a winner here. I just hope it shows some signs of "life" soon, or they will likely kill it off.

Bob

tincup47

I think the Baja was a mistake, the answer to a question that really wasn't being asked. One of the hazards of bringing concept cars to production is that they cannot always have the "Wow" features on the production model the concept did. The midgate on the Baja was a good example of this. I think that Subaru went too over the top on the cladding also. I also felt the small size of the bed limited the truck functionality, having the midgate of the concept would have helped there.
 If they had stuck the turbo or H6 in that model it might have helped, but I still think it would be a tough sell.

salbaby1972

Full mid-gate would have made a huge difference. Turob yes... Anyhow we have a Baja now an it is treating us well.

--Sal

p0926

Subaru is hardly the exception whe it comes to slowly releasing improvements. Look at the PT Cruiser or the new Beetle. The debut of both were handled much the same way. Neither the Beetle nor Cruiser had much oomph when they first came out but they only got turbos once the initial sales volume started to drop (and DC is still milking the Cruiser by now offering a ragtop variant). These are just two out of many similar examples. We may not like it but Chuck's right, it makes the most business sense to introduce enhancements slowly with a new model. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised (albeit pleasantly) that Subaru didn't wait til 06 to offer the XT variant.

-Frank

ateixeira

OK, but think about it, that is *not* a conservative segment. Innovation is key, it's essential for survival.

Plus, with Baja they did tip-toe in. The turbos weren't out for more than a year, and by then it was already a flop! If anything, having the turbo out earlier might have helped the reviews, and sales.

I stand by my view that since this product will break the price barrier for Subaru, it must be a knock out punch from the get-go. Anything less and it will be another Baja.

-juice

sweet_subie

started to see NEW OBs in NE area on road, looks nice !!!!!!!!! I still don;t like the 2-tone OBs. Single color OBs look lot nicer

Strangely, no legacys seen yet

rsholland

Over at nabisco, Jon in CT found two new Subaru trademark applications, B9 & B10. The strange thing is, these are for Europe only.

Bob

ateixeira

Nooooooo!

I want my B9 Scrambler! Bring it here please!

C'mon Brenda, pray with me...

I'm seeing a lot of '05s too. Especially at the beach. Saw 3 of them within a one minute span, even.

-juice

rsholland

My mistake, it was B8 & B10, not B9.

Bob

ateixeira

You tease! ;-)

B8 and B10? Interesting. Now we're using even numbers? LOL

I bet they're concepts. No way would Europe get large models and not the US. Think about it.

Maybe for Geneva?

-juice

paisan

Won't fit, not in the current legacy. People tried to put the 3.3L from the SVX in them and it wasn't an easy task.

-mike

locke2c

um, the EG33 is WAY bigger than the current EZ30. six inches longer and way heavier too.

turbo EZ30s have been done in Imprezas--really absurdly rich people playing with Subarus instead of Porsches for some reason--thus I'm sure it can be done in a Legacy as well.

~Colin

paisan

I was/am contemplating putting one in the L.

However a 3.5 will likely not be the same footprint and doubt it would fit.

-mike

ateixeira

3.5l would probably not be an EZ motor at all. They can't stretch the bore any more - the cylinder walls are already thin.

They could stroke it, but only if the Halifax platform is significatly wider.

So my money's on a significantly wider track, 2" or more wider than the new Legacy. That would accomodate a stroked EZ30 engine, voila, EZ35.

-juice

jon_in_ct

The EZ30's stroke already excedes that of any EJ engine. Also consider this quote from http://www.sae.org/automag/globalview_09-00/06.htm "Getting a new bore pitch-the distance between two adjoining cylinder centers-is really a once-in-your-engineering-life occurrence," said Sekine, "so significant is its influence."

locke2c

So do you really think that the EZ30 engine was built at it maximum design displacement?

I really doubt it. That's a huge engineering investment for such a narrow application.

Surely it will support a longer stroke, or larger bore. And based on the pics, I'd guess stroke. But not much more-- a few mm at most, so I doubt a 3.5L.

But it could be that turbocharging has always been the only growth path for it.

~c

paisan

Well don't forget the EZ30 was designed to be almost the same size and weight as the 2.5 in the 3rd gen Legacy. IIRC it's about 2" longer and 25lbs heavier or something than the 2.5

-mike

rsholland

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=colum- nist_levin&sid=aJb3k4J5S3gE

njswamplands

ateixeira

I believe I mentioned changing the bore centers would be impossible on the EZ engine. In fact it would no longer be an EZ, I'm sure.

So if the bore is at the limit, stroking it is the only choice. Under square engines like that actually tend to make good torque, but don't always have the best high rev characteristics.

They could get a 3.3l out of it, maybe, or more likely just slap a turbocharger on the 3.0l.

Bob - I want to know where I can buy that new $19,000 Outback wagon he mentions. I'll take two of those!

-juice

rob_m

North Hampton, MA???? I would believe that the survey statistics were bit slanted! Isn't that where Birkensocks were invented??? BTW, the owner of the only BAJA in my town fit BOTH demographic traits! Rob M.