If you think about it, though, people that liked the bug-eyes already bought one. Then people that wanted the more basic look bought one. Now Zapatinas fans can buy one.
Honda's new Civic sedan has a longer wheelbase than the Legacy! Hard to believe, but true. It seems that with each new generation of Asian overhaul, the cars get just a bit larger in all dimensions, more powerful, and yet for the most part they are as economical if not more economical. Yes, the Civic Si is down a tad in EPA ratings, but that's more an exception than the rule.
Rumors have it that the next Legacy and Outback are going to the next larger car size too. I would assume the same will happen with the next-generation Impreza, which has been reported to use a shortened Legacy chassis.
All this up-sizing leaves a void at the bottom. Honda is bringing over the Fit to slot into the area the Civic used to occupy (years ago!). I hope Subaru has something in store here too. They desperately need a new vehicle to replace the Justy. The most recent FHI AR shows that there is a new mini-car in the works. Is it a Justy replacement? More important, will they bring it over here?
It may be a mistake (glitch), but from their website:
Limited Package (Optional $2,500):
Leather upholstery 4-speed electronically controlled automatic transmission Heated side mirrors and windshield wipers de-icer Power tilt/sliding-glass moonroof Dual-mode heated front seats
Configurator is able to get me manual w/premium on sedan, but on wagon it insists on adding $1000 for auto (even when it says "manual transmission, the price adds auto).
DOES IT MEAN THAT I HAVE TO GET AUTO TO TO GET LEATHER AND SUNROOF??? IF SO I WANT THE NAME OF THE MORON CAME WITH THIS CONFIG. WRX (no matter what trim/body style) with auto ONLY !!! Only in America :sick:
Joe Spitz's cars101.com lists a WRX Limited Wgn available w/manual: "WRX Limited wagon (grey or beige leather), manual transmission 6LE, 6LF $26,995 +$625 = $27,620 $25,041 +$625 = $25,666" Here's the link if you wanna check it out yourself.
So it was just a glitch at the website, hopefully so. Honestly, it just did not make sense to me, but seeing last trends at SoA, I was ready to believe anything was possible - even WRX auto only...
Wonder if it'll be the same design as the EZ30, probably not. I imagine the diesel would have a longer stroke, so it might be a tighter fit east-west. I also wonder if it'll have all the latest diesel tech.
Wonder if it'll be the same design as the EZ30, probably not. I imagine the diesel would have a longer stroke, so it might be a tighter fit east-west. I also wonder if it'll have all the latest diesel tech
juice, I don't know about the longer stroke, but a smaller bore is very likely. Cylinder wall strength of the gasoline engine would be inadequate. This suggests that the 3.0 liters could shrink to 2.5-2.8 liters, a common displacement for such a diesel.
common rail direct suggests that it will be a sophisticated modern technology unit.
I have been waiting for Subaru, and Honda, to get on this. Again in 2007 with the US new diesel formula, it will be a no-brainer for sales. 30% better gas mileage.
in principal, yes, that is the way to go. But given the huge leap for Subaru in both areas it may make more sense to phase it rather than risk a flop.
I am still scratching my head wondering how durable the engine portion will be in a hybrid unit where it will be shutoff so many times. I hear that the startup is what creates much of the engine wear.
Pics and links are in the most popular Impreza-related board and another regional board linked therein (registration required for the latter to view pics). The R1 is silver, R2 is blue. Blurry phone camera pics of the R1, R2 better quality. Poster reported talking with an "SoA big wig" who was driving the R1.
Very interesting indeed Ed. I've felt for some time that there is a market for the R1 and/or R2 here. With gas now running well over $3.00/gallon, that should make the decision for SOA much easier to make.
They will be bringing it over to Europe, so a RHD model is in the works.
at least it will compensate for the upcoming slump in Turbo model sales. i doubt how subaru is going to sell many turbos requiring premium fuel at these prices.
Sharp eyes noticing the Tribeca, Brian! My guess would be Chicago over Seattle, since there's no Grand Avenue in downtown Seattle and the streetsigns are green rather than blue.
I saw a yellow R1 while walking around in Narita, Japan last year while waiting for a flight. Very cool looking little car. Toyota will bring over the Yaris... Subaru should bring over the R1. Now if there was a way to make all those Hummers/Escalade's/Rams disappear!
I was thinking the same thing. This unexpected gas crisis has really put Subaru (and others) in a bind. Subaru is counting on turbos (which REQUIRE premium) to reach their sales/profit objectives for the coming year. That, I would think, is now in real jeopardy.
With all that is happening with gas prices, and the fact that R1s and R2s have now been spotted around SOA headquarters, I would not be at all surprised if both the R1 and R2 are announced at the upcoming Detroit Show as '07 models for North America.
I hadn't been downtown to Chicago lately, so I wasn't familiar with the signs, nor that restaurant. I was trying to figure out if I could get a glimpse of a license plate on one of the blurred cars, but that proved too hard to find.
I have no idea where the forest picture was taken.
That would be pretty cool; has anyone seen data indicating that the car-buying public is ready to embrace small cars like this? I can see pluses and minuses to a car like that.
The time has never been better with gas prices as they are. I think the biggest concern would be safety, and I know Subaru has designed this vehicle with about as much safety that any small car this size could ask for. The SOJ site (in the R1/R2 area) spends a good amount of time on this very topic.
I didn't link to those pics because the board I found them on has discussion forums.
At any rate, I do believe that the R cars will sell - maybe in limited numbers at most - so long as they incorporate those attributes of larger Subarus that have made them popular here along with a significant increase in fuel economy.
...I must say I'm a bit taken aback at the people who are ready to jump off the Subaru bandwagon in response to the recent gas price surge. So many people complained that there weren't enough high-performance models in the lineup. Now there are, and now people are complaining that these cars are too expensive to run on premium unleaded. Guess what people? Even with the huge jump in prices at the pump the price differential between regular and premium unleaded hasn't changed. It's not like the price of regular held steady and the price of premium jumped, or the price of premium was raised at a higher rate than the price of regular.
I'm no economic forecaster nor oil industry analyst so I didn't see this coming to this extent either, but I'm sticking with my turbo Subaru for the foreseeable future. I'll adjust my driving habits, sure - taking fewer unnecessary trips, combining errands and being more judicious about staying in the boost - but I knew what I was getting into when I got into it.
I know I'm not saying anything new or novel but, for goodness sakes, it's as though everyone wants one of the world's smaller auto manufacturers to be all things to all people, while maintaining its core characteristics and independence from larger automakers, and turn production on a dime.
Ed, I couldn't agree with you more! As gas prices increase, the added cost of premium becomes smaller and smaller and has always been a 5-10% difference (couple hundred dollars a year for most people compared to several thousands spent on gas). And it makes little to no sense to sell/trade a car and get into something with slightly better gas mileage -- it takes years to balance out the depreciation hit for doing that. I think you have the right idea on how to save gas, and that's been my approach too.
I know people are sensitive about MPG, but that's an instantaneous measurement. When it comes to finances, people really need to take a long term perspective.
but many people are in the market for a new car now. So the gas prices could well affect their next choice, in terms of buying a car in which premium is required, or not. For example, someone on the fence between deciding between an Outback 2.5i and an Outback 3.0R may now decide now decide the 2.5i makes more sense. They would rather give up the extra HP to save a little at the pump.
BTW, I haven't heard anyone giving up on Subies here. I will admit to be strongly in favor of regular gas over premium (even on performance cars), and would gladly take a 240 HP Outback H6, that runs on regular, over a 250 HP version that runs on premium. That extra 10 HP would hardly ever be missed. Yeah, yeah, I know you can run the new Outback H6 on regular, but you see my point.
The other point to remember is it's not so much the price difference between premium and regular, but the fact that gas is roughly a third or more expensive than it was a year ago this time. So we're talking about a lot more than a couple of hundred dollars here per year. Plus the cost of heating oil is also up, and so on and so forth. I've got an oil-fired furnace, and dread the thought of what my heating bill will be this winter. All these oil-related costs have a huge domino effect here. People are looking to save wherever they can.
However, there are a lot of people, in the market or not for a new car, that are shopping by MPG or HYBRID. And many of these shoppers just see that part of it, not remembering or knowing the costs up front. Not to mention that many could be on the wrong side of a trade, further adding to the initial costs.
There's a couple of hybrid drivers at work who like to remind how much MPG they get, etc. That's great, I acknowledge that. But, when you remind them that their gas also costs 50% more this year than last (just like everyone else), they don't want to admit to that. I realize this is a small sample, but I found myself worrying there are more who don't see past the MPG either.
We too have combined trips and whatnot to do our part. Both vehicles are averaging well under 10k miles per year.
I'm wondering how long it'll take for other consumer goods (food, merchandise) to feel the effects of rising fuel costs for transportation, etc.
The interesting thing about hybrids is that right now, they have a higher overall cost of ownership than their gas counterparts when you consider purchase price, gas, maintenance, and long term expenses. I read an article recently which compared the Toyota Prius to the Toyota Corolla. You would have to drive the Prius something like 300,000 miles before it started to cost less than the Corolla overall. They concluded by noting that the main compelling feature of the Prius is that it pollutes less (about 25% less) and gives people a sense that they are doing something good for the environment by using less gas. But from an economic perspective, hybrids are not what they would appear to be. I don't think many people understand that however.
Still, do the math -- say I drive 15,000 miles a year and get 25mpg. I need to buy 600 gallons of gas. Currently, in my area, I would spend $2.80/gal on regular and $3.00/gal on premium. So that would be $1680 for regular gas or $1800 for premium. That's only $120 difference. Now for the real kicker -- many engines that are designed for premium will get slightly better mileage with the higher octane. If fuel efficiency went up by 1mpg, I'd be down to a $50 extra cost for premium gas. That's less than most SUV drivers pay for a single tank of gas!!
For most people, $50 a week or $50 a month is on their budgetary radar. But the $50/year cost, spread over about 40 fillups (assuming a 15 gallon tank) is $1.25 per fillup on each $45 fillup. I have a hard time believing most car owners will grouse about that. It's an amount that is almost inconsequential compared to the base fuel cost (which we should grouse about), the cost of auto insurance, car payments, etc... That's why I think total cost of ownership is the only thing that matters. Unfortunately, premium fuel costs and MPG are perception issues that seem to carry a lot more weight than they really should.
In my area regular gas was around $2.30/gal last year about this time. Now I'm paying $3.50 for the same gas, at the same station (which is one of the cheapest around here). So that's a jump of $1.20 a gallon.
$1,20 x 18 (average tank fill of my Explorer) = $21.60 more per tank per week. $21.60 x 52 = $1,123.20 per year. So I'm spending $1,123.20 more for gas per year just for the Explorer—and that doesn't include our Forester.
Again, comparing premium vs regular is missing the point I'm trying to make. It's the "total cost" of fuel that I'm talking about. So any savings found—ANYWHERE is worth it IMO.
...it's was always a $0.20 differential here in the Boston area. In the past couple of weeks I've noticed it starting to creep higher - anywhere from $0.23 - $0.30 per gallon. It seems that station operators are perhaps trying to make up some of the lost profits of those who could and have switched to lower grades. Those of us in the "Premium Required" fold are starting to pay a greater differential.
Now I bought my Passat fully knowing the "Premium Required" issue so I'm blaming only myself.
I know this sounds nuts and you might or might not think it makes a difference. If you think the R2 should be in the US. Let SOA know (Subaru of America)!! I mean email the main email address, send letters, whatever it takes! They're a small enough company that if they are even contimplating bringing it over, you'd be surprised how much our words mean to them (ALOT). I think it would be awesome!! Subaru AWD, 35 miles per gallon plus, SUBARU Safety (Ring shaped reinforcement frame, etc..), under $14,000. Should be a huge hit!!
True, already done that. In fact I wrote an op/ed piece last December for another Subie site on just that very topic. SOA monitors that site closely, so I know they saw it.
One thing anyone can do is go to the SOA site, click on "Contact Us," fill out the needed info, then click on "Product Recommendations," and post your message.
Thanks for the link, Bob. I've sent my request for the R1 and/or R2, given them reasons to bring it, and told them which upcoming competitors I would look at (Toyota Yaris & Honda Fit) if Subaru doesn't enter this segment. Also offered to take part in a test fleet or consumer clinics.
Told 'em if they offered safety, AWD, 40+mpg, 0-60mph around 10 seconds, typical Subaru standard content and a price under $16k that I would spend my money with them.
I just can't get beyond the downright hideous grilles that Subaru hopes that we will fall for. I know it's not the same shape, but whenever I see one, I think EDSEL.
Ed: valid points, but we're asking Subaru to expand, not replace turbos with fuel-sippers. We want more selection.
A minicar will not replace my Forester, but it might replace my Miata. Well, at least if it comes with a large canvas roof or at least a huge moonroof.
Any how, when folks purchased their last car, gas was probably $2 a gallon. For something that averages 22mpg, let's say, and they drive 15k miles per year, that might mean they budgeted $1400 per year for gas.
Their salaries have not doubled. Something's gotta give for those with tight budgets. The small difference is not the point, they are well over budget and needing premium is merely adding insult to injury.
The smart ones never put themselves in that position to begin with, if you ask me. You should never have to stretch to afford a car, and those that did are now hurting.
Here's a portion of the reply I received from SOA regarding R1/R2:
"These Subaru vehicles are prototype vehicles that we received from our manufacturer in Japan. We are in the testing stage with these vehicles, and there is currently no information available on them. At this time, there are no plans to offer this Subaru model in the United States. "
Nice to have them confirm that the vehicles are here and being tested.
Comments
Bob
That's a lot of variety! LOL
-juice
Rumors have it that the next Legacy and Outback are going to the next larger car size too. I would assume the same will happen with the next-generation Impreza, which has been reported to use a shortened Legacy chassis.
All this up-sizing leaves a void at the bottom. Honda is bringing over the Fit to slot into the area the Civic used to occupy (years ago!). I hope Subaru has something in store here too. They desperately need a new vehicle to replace the Justy. The most recent FHI AR shows that there is a new mini-car in the works. Is it a Justy replacement? More important, will they bring it over here?
Bob
Bob
Limited Package (Optional $2,500):
Leather upholstery
4-speed electronically controlled automatic transmission
Heated side mirrors and windshield wipers de-icer
Power tilt/sliding-glass moonroof
Dual-mode heated front seats
Configurator is able to get me manual w/premium on sedan, but on wagon it insists on adding $1000 for auto (even when it says "manual transmission, the price adds auto).
DOES IT MEAN THAT I HAVE TO GET AUTO TO TO GET LEATHER AND SUNROOF??? IF SO I WANT THE NAME OF THE MORON CAME WITH THIS CONFIG. WRX (no matter what trim/body style) with auto ONLY !!! Only in America :sick:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
Bob
My '91 Escort GT has 5.5" wide wheels, very strange and quite narrow.
-juice
Bob
"WRX Limited wagon (grey or beige leather), manual transmission 6LE, 6LF $26,995 +$625 = $27,620 $25,041 +$625 = $25,666"
Here's the link if you wanna check it out yourself.
It's also rumored that a 3.0 (?) H6 diesel is in the works for the Euro-Tribeca.
Bob
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-juice
juice,
I don't know about the longer stroke, but a smaller bore is very likely. Cylinder wall strength of the gasoline engine would be inadequate. This suggests that the 3.0 liters could shrink to 2.5-2.8 liters, a common displacement for such a diesel.
dave
I have been waiting for Subaru, and Honda, to get on this. Again in 2007 with the US new diesel formula, it will be a no-brainer for sales. 30% better gas mileage.
The diesels should come before the hybrid, IMO.
John
Best of both worlds. Diesels yield great highway mileage. Hybrids yield great city mileage. Imagine 60/60 mpg EPA.
Subaru is talking about a diesel H6 for the european Tribeca. They're also developing another engine.
Honda has a gem of a diesel in the euro CR-V. Once the US has low-sulphur fuel, let's see who brings them over. There is still the emissions hurdle.
-juice
I am still scratching my head wondering how durable the engine portion will be in a hybrid unit where it will be shutoff so many times. I hear that the startup is what creates much of the engine wear.
John
Briazz is located in Chicago and Seattle, IIRC. I'm guessing this is a pic in Seattle.
-Brian
Verrrrrrrry interesting...
Ed
They will be bringing it over to Europe, so a RHD model is in the works.
Bob
Encouraging R1/R2 news, Ed. Thanks!
Very cool looking little car. Toyota will bring over the Yaris... Subaru should bring over the R1.
Now if there was a way to make all those Hummers/Escalade's/Rams disappear!
Bring on the R1/R2 SOA!
Bob
Bob
I have no idea where the forest picture was taken.
-Brian
CRaig
Bob
Note the hood scoop means it's supercharged!
Bob
At any rate, I do believe that the R cars will sell - maybe in limited numbers at most - so long as they incorporate those attributes of larger Subarus that have made them popular here along with a significant increase in fuel economy.
Ed
I'm no economic forecaster nor oil industry analyst so I didn't see this coming to this extent either, but I'm sticking with my turbo Subaru for the foreseeable future. I'll adjust my driving habits, sure - taking fewer unnecessary trips, combining errands and being more judicious about staying in the boost - but I knew what I was getting into when I got into it.
I know I'm not saying anything new or novel but, for goodness sakes, it's as though everyone wants one of the world's smaller auto manufacturers to be all things to all people, while maintaining its core characteristics and independence from larger automakers, and turn production on a dime.
Ed
http://www.subaru.co.nz/Roam/About_Subaru/News/?article=816&PHPSESSID=6f865b0972c67358564e- ca7eac76f102
I know people are sensitive about MPG, but that's an instantaneous measurement. When it comes to finances, people really need to take a long term perspective.
Craig
BTW, I haven't heard anyone giving up on Subies here. I will admit to be strongly in favor of regular gas over premium (even on performance cars), and would gladly take a 240 HP Outback H6, that runs on regular, over a 250 HP version that runs on premium. That extra 10 HP would hardly ever be missed. Yeah, yeah, I know you can run the new Outback H6 on regular, but you see my point.
The other point to remember is it's not so much the price difference between premium and regular, but the fact that gas is roughly a third or more expensive than it was a year ago this time. So we're talking about a lot more than a couple of hundred dollars here per year. Plus the cost of heating oil is also up, and so on and so forth. I've got an oil-fired furnace, and dread the thought of what my heating bill will be this winter. All these oil-related costs have a huge domino effect here. People are looking to save wherever they can.
Bob
There's a couple of hybrid drivers at work who like to remind how much MPG they get, etc. That's great, I acknowledge that. But, when you remind them that their gas also costs 50% more this year than last (just like everyone else), they don't want to admit to that. I realize this is a small sample, but I found myself worrying there are more who don't see past the MPG either.
We too have combined trips and whatnot to do our part. Both vehicles are averaging well under 10k miles per year.
I'm wondering how long it'll take for other consumer goods (food, merchandise) to feel the effects of rising fuel costs for transportation, etc.
-Brian
Craig
For most people, $50 a week or $50 a month is on their budgetary radar. But the $50/year cost, spread over about 40 fillups (assuming a 15 gallon tank) is $1.25 per fillup on each $45 fillup. I have a hard time believing most car owners will grouse about that. It's an amount that is almost inconsequential compared to the base fuel cost (which we should grouse about), the cost of auto insurance, car payments, etc... That's why I think total cost of ownership is the only thing that matters. Unfortunately, premium fuel costs and MPG are perception issues that seem to carry a lot more weight than they really should.
Craig
$1,20 x 18 (average tank fill of my Explorer) = $21.60 more per tank per week. $21.60 x 52 = $1,123.20 per year. So I'm spending $1,123.20 more for gas per year just for the Explorer—and that doesn't include our Forester.
Again, comparing premium vs regular is missing the point I'm trying to make. It's the "total cost" of fuel that I'm talking about. So any savings found—ANYWHERE is worth it IMO.
Bob
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/05/Autos-303816.htm
It's the old domino effect.
Bob
Now I bought my Passat fully knowing the "Premium Required" issue so I'm blaming only myself.
-Brian
I know this sounds nuts and you might or might not think it makes a difference. If you think the R2 should be in the US. Let SOA know (Subaru of America)!! I mean email the main email address, send letters, whatever it takes! They're a small enough company that if they are even contimplating bringing it over, you'd be surprised how much our words mean to them (ALOT). I think it would be awesome!! Subaru AWD, 35 miles per gallon plus, SUBARU Safety (Ring shaped reinforcement frame, etc..), under $14,000. Should be a huge hit!!
True
One thing anyone can do is go to the SOA site, click on "Contact Us," fill out the needed info, then click on "Product Recommendations," and post your message.
http://www.subaru.com/tools/contactus/index.jsp
Bob
Told 'em if they offered safety, AWD, 40+mpg, 0-60mph around 10 seconds, typical Subaru standard content and a price under $16k that I would spend my money with them.
A minicar will not replace my Forester, but it might replace my Miata. Well, at least if it comes with a large canvas roof or at least a huge moonroof.
Any how, when folks purchased their last car, gas was probably $2 a gallon. For something that averages 22mpg, let's say, and they drive 15k miles per year, that might mean they budgeted $1400 per year for gas.
Their salaries have not doubled. Something's gotta give for those with tight budgets. The small difference is not the point, they are well over budget and needing premium is merely adding insult to injury.
The smart ones never put themselves in that position to begin with, if you ask me. You should never have to stretch to afford a car, and those that did are now hurting.
-juice
"These Subaru vehicles are prototype vehicles that we received
from our manufacturer in Japan. We are in the testing stage with these vehicles,
and there is currently no information available on them. At this time, there are
no plans to offer this Subaru model in the United States. "
Nice to have them confirm that the vehicles are here and being tested.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/fuji_heavys_tur.html#more