Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland

dropped from 2010 Legacy, and likely Outback too.

According to SOA Blog (SOA rep) over at NASIOC, there was "little demand and it was under-appreciated" for it. Probably true, but also a sign that SOA bean-counters are earning their pay.

Bob

rsholland

http://jalopnik.com/5203490/2010-subaru-legacy-more-curves-more-power

Bob

xwesx

Darn it all. When do we get to see the Outback?

rsholland

Tomorrow.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/08/new-york-what-subaru-left-out-back/

Bob

oregonboy

That's really too bad. Just my opinion, but stupid-ugly. :sick:

Follow-the-leader styling-cliches: oversized, over-chromed grill and giant headlights, to name the two most memorable.

I like the current generation much better.

rsholland

I like the current generation much better.

I don't. This is a much better car than the outgoing model in all the ways that count. Like the new Forester and Impreza, it will appeal to a much larger audience.

Bob

oregonboy

I was speaking only of the vehicles' appearance.

rsholland

I'm not troubled by the styling.

Bob

luvfishing

The new Legacy looks very good - and it will get more customers. It is sized right (bigger but without much weight gain), looks more substantial, and will not cost much more. Plus - they upgraded the transmissions (a prior weak point). Hope the CVT has some guts and not the rubberband feeling of earlier attempts by other manufacturers.

It always seems that whenever Subaru introduces an updated/new model many are uncomfortable with styling - and then everyone eventually gets used to it (and some actually start to like it) especially when the next generation comes along. Then the cycle starts again with criticisms of the newest update's styling (when they decry the newest version's looks and call the older version (which used to be the new ugly version) much better styled. Heck - that's what new model updates have to do - push the envelope.

As far as being bland or looking like a generic car - this is definitely a Subaru. Not a Sebring, not an Altima, and not a G35x. It actually is tasteful - and looks fine. It is hard to walk the fine line between generic, distinctive, and fugly.

Many of us want a more serious car - not a boy racer vehicle that screams 16 year-old. We also want some serious performance in a "sleeper" car that doesn't say "look at me." Hopefully this model will deliver the goods.

I do agree with some who have asked for an STI Legacy. How about a turbo 3.6 H? Now that would be a serious piece of business.

dbt

"Hope the CVT has some guts and not the rubberband feeling of earlier attempts by other manufacturers."
I've heard it's the same one as in the Justy!

rsholland

I've heard it's the same one as in the Justy!

What? No way!

No rubber bands here, but rather a much more robust chain belt.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0903_2010_subaru_legacy_first_loo- k/photo_06.html

Bob

volkov

I see they have an Outback teaser there too.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/wagons/112_0904_2010_subaru_outback_first_lo- ok/index.html

volkov

I don't get the rubber band description. On the contrary, they give a very linear feel I thought. Many people don't like that, sure but it's not whippy. If you want rubber band, drive the old 2.0T.

nowakj66

The news is out on the 2010 Outback!

It has a 6 MT option - YAY!

But can I get leather and a 6 MT? Or are all limiteds with leather CVTs? :-(

dcm61

The new Outback looks OK to me for the most part, but ... those roof rails are HIDEOUS. :confuse:

samiam_68

Finally! - a DUAL button on the climate control.

volkov

Did we know there would not be an XT anymore. I forget now.

red927

In looking at the pictures of the gauge cluster, I noticed that they have removed the engine temperature gauge and replaced it with a MPG gauge. My wife has that on her 09 Legacy 3.0R and it is really useless. It reminds me of the optional Econominder Gauge on my father-in-law's old 1979 Chevy Caprice.

The new Legacy/Outback probably has the blue/red "idiot" light that lets you know when the engine has warmed up or overheated like the 08 Impeza and the 09 Forester.

Phil

lfo

I really like the new design. Less wagon'y and a tad more SUV'ish. I guess that is the new height and width. Shocked to see it's not longer. Thought maybe it had been stretched, since it looked a bit like the Venza in shape. A hint of minivan in there? A cool one though. Looks like it has killer utility. What I don't like: the side cladding with that scalloping, the front cladding with the faux aluminum, the cheapy/uncomfy looking back seats (not talking about legroom but the actual seats where you put your butt), and the radio looks like some tricked up cheap Sony portable system you have in your house (meaning the design of it). Other than that, I say excellent. I think it looks like a better vehicle than the current Forester. It sort of makes the Forester irrelevant or redundant in my mind. Maybe an economical option though, at its base levels.

dbt

Sorry to confuse you. Justy kidding around. [bad drum sound]

If you weren't checking out cars back in 1989 or so, the Justy was the first CVT in the U.S. It had a whopping 1.2 litre, 3 cyl engine, IIRC. I was pretty interested when it came out, and it seemed to work ok to me, based on a test drive.
I don't know all the technical details, but I think it was a rubber belt system, that worked because of the small engine size. But for now ...

rsholland

Ah, but they are "trick" roof rails! The cross bars fold into them when not needed, thus cutting down on wind noise. Check out the pics on the microsite here:

http://www.subaru-global.com/special/2010_legacy_outback/index.html

Bob

erics6

I think it looks like a better vehicle than the current Forester. It sort of makes the Forester irrelevant or redundant in my mind. Maybe an economical option though, at its base levels.

Yikes. I have the opposite opinion. I like the 05-07 Outback but not the new one. I'll stick with the new Forester.

xwesx

I agree with you, Eric. The '05-'07 remains the best looking Outback to date. Granted, there is more to the car than its looks, but not if you are not the one inside it! :P

The interior looks fantastic, as is becoming trademark for Subaru, but the exterior. Oh, the exterior. I just do not see how they could move from such an elegant and sleek style (okay, so ignore the current monstrosity of a grille and it is elegant/sleek) to that clumsy design. I could almost tolerate it if not for that horrid transition between the rear side glass and the tail lights on the rear quarters. Awful - they pulled a bad play strait out of Toyota's "How to make a RAV-4 look [non-permissible content removed]-heavy" book.

I am terribly disappointed that I will have to look at that ugly car for five model years. I wouldn't care if it was a Honda, as that is just their style, but darn. This is a Subaru. What a let down. I think this officially marks Subaru's shift in focus. It used to be that the wagon looked purpose-built, while the sedan was merely a modification of it. Now, the sedan is clearly the focus, while the wagon is merely a couple extra sheets of metal thrown Outback. How's that for "Legacy?"

That said, I am going to go drive one (or two, or three) the first chance I get. I want to try out these new mechanicals.

volkov

I think it has re-establised a more upscale level relative to the Forester if the interior shots are accurate. Interesting that there is now a pretty comparable Toyo/Subie progression of AWD 'wagonny' vehicles:

RAV4/Forester - small/mid SUV
Venza/Outback -midsize AWD wagon
Highlander/Tribeca - 5 to 7 pass. crossover

oregonboy

Well said.

I had forgotten that the latest Subies had messed up the original design with the trendy(er) "assertive" oversized grill... following in the footsteps of that style-leader, Dodge. :sick: :lemon:

xwesx

I just noticed that the '10 Outback no longer has a hand brake! :sick:

rsholland

Same with the Legacy. Both have an electronic hand brake (for better or worse).

Bob

dcm61

But can I get leather and a 6 MT? No.

Or are all limiteds with leather CVTs? Yes.

...according to the 2010 Subaru Outback At-A-Glance

Outback 2.5i Limited adds over 2.5i Premium:
• 4-way power passenger seat
• All-Weather Package
• LineartronicTM CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission)
• Dual-zone automatic climate control system
• Leather-trimmed upholstery
• Upgraded audio (optional system on Premium)

jay_24

The roof rack is a interesting gimmick. Putting 3 or 4 bikes on top will be interesting since the roof mounting appears diffent than the past so current Yakima and Thule racks probably won't work. Then again they probably won't work on any new car I get...

From the Subie site:
With a 2.0-in. increase in vehicle width, the 2010 Outback offers greater hip room (+3.5 inches in front, +1.3 in. in back)

Adding less than 1.5" to the rear seat width isn't going to help my three kids. The Venza is another maybe 3 or 4 inches wider. The leg room will help!

EPA on the Venza AWD 4 banger is 28 mpg vs supposed 27 for the subie. However both of those might be better than the "27" rating for the old `01 model I have now. So much for that "30mpg" teaser a week ago or so.

If The 10 outback stays the same price or lower, it will have a good distict difference from the Toyota. Keeping in mind that to most people AWD=AWD and 4cyl = 4cyl. Most look at size, mpg, price and cup holders.

robr2

The only styling issue I have - and it's nitpickity - is how the leading edge of the hood curves up above the downward curve of the trim piece.

lucien2

I wonder how it will handle, compared to Venza. Our '99 is still a hoot to toss around. I hope some of that remains in 2010, and that it isn't a watered-down cush mobile.

rsholland

I've been in contact with someone who has driven the new Legacy and Outback. From what I've learned it's much more refined than the old car, and is still fun to drive. Obviously, the 2.5GT is the "driver's choice," but the others should be fine too. The steering ratio has been quickened up to 14.5:1 I believe. That's a little quicker than the U.S.-spec WRX and STI (15.0:1), and significantly quicker than the old car (16.5:1 I think?).

Bob

wmarton64

"The roof rack is a interesting gimmick. Putting 3 or 4 bikes on top will be interesting since the roof mounting appears diffent than the past so current Yakima and Thule racks probably won't work. Then again they probably won't work on any new car I get..."

>>> I have a Thule carrier that I use on my 2001 Outback. I have to re-position the roof rails in order to get it to fit; otherwise, I can't open the rear hatch. If you can't adjust the roof rails on the new Outback, this would be a major oversight by Subaru.

"Adding less than 1.5" to the rear seat width isn't going to help my three kids. The Venza is another maybe 3 or 4 inches wider. The leg room will help!"

>>> Here are the dimensions (in inches and pounds; exterior first then interior ) of the current Subaru SUV/CUV model's:

2009 Forester 2.5 XT Ltd. 179.5(l) X 70.1 (w) X 66.9 (h) 103 (wheelbase) 3440 (wgt.)
40/37.7 (headroom) 43.1/38 (legroom f&r) 56.1/55.6 (sh.room f&r)

2009 Outback 3.0R Ltd. 189(l) X 69.7 (w) X 63.2 (h) 105.1 (wheelbase) 3631 (wgt.)
38.7/37.1 (headroom) 44.1/33.9 (legroom f&r) 54.4/53.7 (sh.room f&r)

2009 Tribeca Limited 191.5(l) X 88.8 (w) X 67.7 (h) 108.2 (wheelbase) 4140 (wgt.)
38.9/38.2 (headroom) 43.3/34.3 (legroom f&r) 58.1/57.5 (sh.room f&r)

2010 Outback 188.2(l) X 71.7 (w) X 65.7 (h) 107.9 (wheelbase) ? (wgt.)
~39?/~38? (headroom) ~45?/37.8 (legroom f&r) 56.3/56.1 (sh.room f&r)

I don't understand why they didn't increase the length and width on the new Outback by an inch or two...to something more like the Tribeca. As you noted, this is fundamentally still a four person vehicle. The Tribeca, which has been a complete failure in the marketplace, is really a five person vehicle because the third row is ridiculously small. I think that it would make more sense to have a five-person Outabck and a 6+ person Tribeca. The problem is that the new Outback is still too narrow and the current Tribeca too short. If Subaru discontinues the Tribeca (not an unreasonable proposition given that they only sold 11,000 last year and they are selling only about 500/month this year), then the Outback would be Subaru's largest vehicle, but only have a four-person real life capacity.

Here are my thoughts on other aspects of the Outback redesign: the exterior is ok; better than the 2010 Legacy (very vanilla), but not as nice as the current Forester. I am not a big fan of the faux metal fog light housings and skid plate/fascia, but I'll reserve judgment until I see the vehicle in a couple more colors. The rear is plain jane, but not terrible. I am not crazy about the interior...too much shiny plastic. The steering wheel looks very cheap compared to the Momo-designed steering wheel that I have in my current Outback. I also noticed that the press release mentions that the audio system has nine Harman-Kardon speakers; who makes the tuner/receiver though? The McIntosh audio system in my 2001 Outback is very nice. One would hope that they wouldn't go backwards on the interior amenities.

wilbur

volkov

It will all depend on how much weight it actually gains. Currently it has a 400 lb weight advantage over the Venza to help the driving feel. I haven't seen any official numbers on weight.

rsholland

According to the SOA spec sheet, the new Outback is 71.7" wide, which is up from the the 2009 model.

Bob

jay_24

Yep its wider. 2 inches on the outside and less than 1.5 inches on the inside (rear seat hip room).

movedor

With larger Outback I wonder how many people will really consider getting a Tribeca 5 seat. It looks like Tribeca is now in disadvantage in terms of luxury and convenience compared to Outback 2010. And given sales of Tribeca are total disappointment, they may just let it die this year, that is, no updates for 2010, get rid stock at hand, minimize losses. Afterall, in the present economic situation no one can take risks like a costly bad seller.

rsholland

It's a legitimate concern. I suspect Subaru may drop the 5-passenger 'Beca for 2010, as it will really compete with the new Outback.

Bob

ateixeira

I'm sure the next Tribeca will be bigger. Right after Subaru introduced it, everyone seemed to upsize their crossovers. Look how big the GM Lambdas are, for instance.

I agree with eric and wes that the 05-07 OB and Legacy were probably the peak in terms of styling, but a lot of people criticized them for being a bit bland. Personally I liked the 05-07 Legacy in particular.

The new one is bigger and modernized, especially the stacked headlights and the sizing fit better to what consumers expect from that price class now.

In short I think they upsized it about as much as they needed to. People will no longer say the back seat is cramped, though it may still not be "paisan sized". :shades:

I like the mpg readout - my van has it, our Forester has it, the Miata doesn't - and I miss it. 09 Miatas got that upgrade. It's usefull feedback to the driver, IMO.

The lack of a temp guage is a bummer, but that's a sign of the times. Modern engines rarely need that. The light on our Forester does the trick.

I disagree with whoever said the Forester will lose sales - it's a lot cheaper, it's 10 inches shorter, it's 400 lbs lighter, not to mention it's boxy and practical instead of rakish and stylish like the 2010 OB (tries to be, at least).

Overall I think it's a good update. They addressed the complaints about rear leg room and bland styling, basically. Sounds like they actually listened to the customers.

I'd like to see more 6 speed manuals in the lineup, but we should keep in mind some competitors don't offer those at all.

volkov

Yep, I think only the Subie faithful would complain about a lack of 6mt in other non-sporty models.

ateixeira

Bummer is you can't get a turbo wagon with the 6MT.

They even dropped the manual from the Forester XT.

You gotta get a WRX and settle for a small hatch.

dino001

That is my major complain, has been all along. When I get tired of my brand new STI and want to go a little softer, still sporty and more luxury, I have no place to go with Subaru .

ateixeira

CPO 2008 Forester XT Sports manual.

volkov

Leg GT still comes in 6MT, but that's sedan only.

lucien2

choices for folks who like sporting wagons but insist on manuals become scarcer every model year. Down to BMW, Audi, and VW essentially. And the sticker price/cost of ownership on at least the first two rule them out for many of us. It's forcing me into a smaller car than I'd really like next time. The short list of short cars is likely to be Impreza wagon (AWD, Subaru, but becoming a more sedate drive as it matures), Mazda3 wagon (versatile, a good drive, stylish), and Clubman. the Clubbie is there because, although it is quite small, it enjoys a formidable efficiency advantage over the other two. And it's a hoot, as is, right out of the box, no assembly required.

rsholland

Don't forget the 2010 Outback 2.5i Base and Premium, which come with a (new) 6-speed manual. Granted, it may not fill the "sporty" bill as well as some of the others you mentioned.

Bob

ateixeira

I'd add the WRX, too. It probably doesn't cost any more than a Clubman S.

Tell you what - when I bought the Miata, I found MazdaSpeed3 models for $20.9k, brand new. That's tempting. The new 3 is overdone, so I kinda like the old one better.

lucien2

agreed; but I think the new one may be a better drive. I haven't read anything that says it's lost its edge. WRX combined mileage is only 1mpg worse than the Impreza, so yea, i guess I'd put it on the list; it certainly would vault to the top of the fun-to-drive list, but still really suffers on economy. Can that really be attributed solely to AWD? Or is Subaru behind on engine management? The clubbie would be NA, so it too would fall in the 21k range, and absolutely kills the others on economy.

I think the new OB is going to be too much for us, in terms of price, weight, and...well, bigness. We shall see.

rsholland

I think a base Outback might be less expensive than you think. They did remove some items to get the MSRP down.

Bob

dino001

Sorry, but non of those would be even close to what I'm looking for .