Subaru Crew - Future Models II

dcm61

Not as much need as for better Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

Remember that Forester (and Outback, Tribeca) are classified as trucks for CAFE, so at this point, I don't think Subaru needs to worry about CAFE ratings. However, they will need to start worrying about the CAFE numbers on the car side (Impreza/WRX/STi and Legacy).

Question? Can an auto maker apply excess "truck" CAFE credits to the car side?

P.S. No CVT in the '11 Forester ...

saedave

However, they will need to start worrying about the CAFE numbers on the car side (Impreza/WRX/STi and Legacy).

Question? Can an auto maker apply excess "truck" CAFE credits to the car side?

A truck's CAFE requirement is a function of weight (and possibly size calculated by track times wheelbase also) . Since Subaru uses the same platforms for sedans, hatchbacks and (raised) wagons, each platform will be affected.

I'm not sure Subaru will have an excess of truck CAFE numbers. Their CAFE numbers will compare to similar vehicles, such as CRV, not large trucks.

nippononly

It was high time AND PASSED that Subaru moved away from the use of timing belts - there is no-one else using those any more and they are seen as less durable (and rightly so) - not an image you want your cars to have.

But it is also high time that Subaru incorporate DI in its engines - if Hyundai can do it at their price point, Soob can do it. Come on Subaru, don't let all the competition pass you by on this one! They already have a DI engine in Japan - let's get that out to the rest of us!

I wonder if the move to DOHC will cause the new engine to be more willing to spin up to redline. The SOHC in my car sure isn't happy to do it. Not a big deal, but something that would make it more attractive to me.

aaykay

I wonder if the move to DOHC will cause the new engine to be more willing to spin up to redline. The SOHC in my car sure isn't happy to do it. Not a big deal, but something that would make it more attractive to me.

I think one of the biggest advantage of a DOHC engine is the easy "revvability" that it has, when compared to an equivalent SOHC. Quicker revving and more tractability is what I would expect from this new DOHC engine. Even without DI, this is a big step in the right direction, IMHO.

rsholland

Even without DI, this is a big step in the right direction, IMHO..

I agree. I also think DI is in the cards at some point, and if so, this is a much better platform to use it on.

Bob

ateixeira

I am sure the DOHC will rev better.

HP is the same and that is getting all the attention, but they added more torque and both peak sooner, plus I bet it will sustain the revs better. All that plus an extra mpg.

Having said that, where is the CVT?

Odd choice of powertrain upgrades, and hopefully more is in the pipeline.

ateixeira

The Brazilian market Forester has headlamp washers (!) and side marker lamps. The interior has some wood (plood) in spots ours has painted silver (pluminum?).

My sister in law has one. I do not like the dark interior, though, so I am very glad we picked the lighter gray one.

Her side mirrors are bigger, MUCH taller in fact. Her wheels are smaller, though, 16¨, probably to deal with the huge pot holes here.

It is funny - my brother also bought a CR-V, so we are essentiall conducting a 3-week test of Forester vs. CR-V.

So far the CR-V has 17¨ rims here, and the arm rests are nice. Plus the headliner is fabric vs. the cheap mouse fur in the Forester.

The Forester, though, fit 3 suitcases, while the CR-V could only take 2. The ride is more car-like, making the Honda seem bouncy. The front seats are also more comfy, and the perforated leather is much better for this hot climate. Overall comfort is also higher because the Honda has an annoying door handle that hits my knee every time I sit in it.

Another biggie is visibility. The Subaru is much, much better. My brother agrees and paid for an aftermarket backup cam in his CR-V to even things out.

We are taking 3 out of town road trips so I should cover well over a thousand miles in the coming 3 weeks, so I will share more impressions later. So far, though, my pick is the Forester, but I will say this CR-V comes close.

rsholland

I see the Brazilian Foresters have the 2.0 engine, for non-turbos. How's it compare to the your 2.5 model?

http://www.subaru.com.br/forester.php

Bob

saedave

The Brazilian market Forester has headlamp washers (!)

I believe the 2011 U.S. Forester may get them as a required part of the HID lamp installation in the new top Touring? model.

robr2

Why would headlamp washers be a required part of HID's??

ateixeira

I have only driven it around town, under 40mph in heavy traffic.

Today I actually drove my mom´s Honda Fit. Older generation. Decent, but the turning circle is wider than expected for such a small car, and the brakes are grabby as heck, then the pedal sinks a little.

I will have her bleed the brakes at the next service.

I don´t really like the Fit - the chair seems to sit above the interior rather than being a part of it. Not very comfortable, no cockpit feel at all. It is an auto, 1.3l model, so it can barely get out of its own way.

Gas is $5.41 per gallon so that is just fine for this market.

We leave for a road trip early in the AM, so I should get more time behind the wheel of her Forester. I will report back in a few days, once we get back.

aaykay

As far as the Honda Fit is concerned, the newer generation feels much more substantial and solid, while not having added much weight. Also, clearly the 1.3L and the Automatic certainly does not mix.

For any such tiny engine, one needs a manual to extract the most out of the engine. And the automatic is not helping the mileage either, since the USDM Automatic, even though rated by the EPA as better than even the manual, falls woefully behind in the real world, with the manual having 3-5mpg better numbers than the Automatic. That torque converter is certainly a parasitic power sucker.

volkov

A CVT would work wonders too, but I expect that would hit them hard on the cost side. I have to think that more and cheaper CVT trannies will start showing up. I was very impressed with the CVT in the Legacy 2.5. It really made it feel like it had more power than the same engine with the old auto.

ateixeira

I have yet to fill up the tank, so I cannot comment on the mileage of the Fit. It does OK around town and that is where it is used most of the time.

The 2.0l Forester has ranged from 21 to 30mpg by my math (9 to 13 km/liter), so really no better than the 2.5l in our US-spec Forester.

rsholland

Just heard that from someone supposedly "in-the-know."

Currently all Subarus, except the Tribeca, are on 5-year cycles. The Tribeca is on a 6-year-and-counting cycle.

This means an all-new Impreza will debut next year for 2012. Reportedly its styling was heavily influenced by Subaru's recent Hybrid Tourer Concept.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/21/subaru-hybrid-tourer-concept-tokyo-2009-fuji-- heavy/

Bob

rsholland

new commercials for the '11 WRX and STI.

http://www.subaru.com/getmoregs/index.html

Love the one with the "how much more...I think I've had it...Oh my God" elderly Sandra.

Bob

xwesx

Well, with the rate things are changing, that may be necessary in order to keep the sales pace going. Bigger, better, faster, more... that is the mantra of the day... :sick:

xwesx

Hahah; pretty funny. Lewis was having a great time!

I really like the tennis ball - that's hilarious.

aatherton

"... This engine is a small improvement when subaru needed a lot more mpg and/or horsepower."

On the contrary. This engine is not about mpg or power. The new engine incorporates two major improvements for longevity:
1. The semi-closed deck of the DOHC engine will end the problem of head gasket leaks.
2. The chain drive will end the 100K replacement of the rubber belt and the danger of its breaking and damaging the engine.

colin_l

You could have done both of those with SOHC.

Actually, for #2, the Subaru SOHC is non-interference. If the timing belt breaks you are stranded and that's not fun, but there will be zero damage to the engine. None.

colin_l

Great commercials!

The plastic girl was pretty weird, though. Looked like someone that should be on a VH1 reality show.

saedave

1. The semi-closed deck of the DOHC engine will end the problem of head gasket leaks.

I have seen no specific mention of semi-closed deck for the new engine. The old (WRX,XT,STI) DOHC block has that construction, but where is the new longer stroke engine's block described in detail?

With the extra cost casting of the semi-closed deck block there certainly was incentive to solve the gasket problem through other design changes. Even a change in bore centers (though expensive) could have been made.

rblnr

These spots seem perfectly pitched to STI buyers.

ateixeira

LOL, that's pretty darn edgy.

And the girl's name is Lana, ha ha ha. Mine has a bit less silicone.

rsholland

Did you see the postcards? In fact I sent you one yesterday, I think.

Bob

ateixeira

I'm having trouble getting to my work e-mail, bandwidth is terribly slow here plus my work had a virus crisis (while I was gone, LOL) and everything is upside down.

I guess it's good that they really missed me.

I was wondering who Da Bob was.

saedave

There could be another major improvement if the nasty exhaust manifold rap is eliminated by a block and exhaust design similar to the 3.6R. NVH of the Subaru 4-cylinder engine needs to be improved to a competitive level.

The rap is missing on my XT, suggesting the normally aspirated engine's exhaust manifold is the culprit.

aaykay

These latest iterations of the WRX/STI are moving away from their former Rally-race-car basis and are adopting a high-performance road-car persona. Not saying that is good or bad, just that the focus of the cars seem to be changing.

Even the new STI's modified version's testing done in the Nurburgring circuit was a subtle indication of this change in philosophy, IMHO.

ateixeira

Interesting observation, and I agree.

rsholland

Yeah, I agree too.

Bob

colin_l

I disagree with the second point.

Subaru has tested many cars on the 'Ring. Unfortunately, most of them have been modified and they've become a one-upsmanship game that has little to do with cars that people can actually buy.

I think that they would learn a lot more if they tested pre-production and production cars there, and I can only assume that they test them on other tracks (probably in Japan).

raycc

Does anyone know when will Subaru put direct injection in to their engine? And why the Forester gets new chain-driven but not the outback? Don’t they use the same engine? I’m in the market looking for a family car as my 2001 outback with 177K is getting old. I know GM, Ford and Hyundai is already adding DI to their engine.

ateixeira

Good questions, and I wish we knew why!

Subaru uses the EJ25 for a lot of models, though turbos actually get a different block.

The Forester's block is basically the same as the Outback's, though, but the heads are very different (DOHC vs. SOHC).

I imagine it'll trickle through the lineup, and all models will eventually get it. The surprise was that the Forester got it first, given the lower price point.

Outback has better transmissions, OTOH, so maybe they did that to balance things out. I'd like to see a DOHC with the CVT combined. Add DI for good measure.

Sonata got DI, but Forester competitors Tucson and Sportage do not. The turbos variants will, however. That puts pressure on the Forester XT, which I think they should bump up to WRX levels of output.

colin_l

Ray, here's Edmunds' latest info about Subaru: http://www.insideline.com/subaru/future-vehicles.html

Nothing on there at all about powertrains, including no mention of the 2.0L turbo diesel that already exists in Europe.

To me Subaru seems like a company that is slow to change and not aggressive, whereas Hyundai and Ford are very aggressive and successfully deploying vehicles and technologies that people want.. and most importantly, making money while doing it. (Less sure about GM. Aggressive, maybe in pockets. But stubborn if not stupid in others.)

Subaru is selling more vehicles right now in the US than they ever have, but they don't really have class-leading technology at all. In fact they barely make the grade. I'm not real sure what are the key elements of their sales volume, but my opinion is that this ride won't last forever and they better start producing more technically competitive vehicles in the next few years.

saedave

The Forester's block is basically the same as the Outback's, though, but the heads are very different (DOHC vs. SOHC).

I don't think we know that the block is the same as the old one in the Outback. In addition to the longer stroke, other changes could have been made especially those which would strengthen the block next to the head gasket. There is a very remote possibility that the XT's more expensive block is used. Greatly reducing high miles head gasket failures would improve opinions of Subaru.

ateixeira

I bet they changed the crank and pistons, but you could be right, it may have been the block as well. I guess we'll see.

Right now I think Hyundai got it right with the Sonata - close to 200hp even in base models, a healthy 276hp in the turbos, and both engines are fuel efficient.

Shame they didn't put that DI engine in the Tucson, Sportage, and Sorento. Especially the heavier Sorento.

raycc

Yeah, I would like to get an outback with DI and CVT too. With DI added, it will at least bump the HP and Torque close to 200. And up the MPG by 20% to 30%. I hate to buy a car now and a year or two later found out they update it with better hardware.

raycc

I will get a Tucson, if Hyundai put that Sonata DI engine in it. It's not a bad looking suv.

dcm61

Yeah, I would like to get an outback with DI and CVT too. With DI added, it will at least bump the HP and Torque close to 200. And up the MPG by 20% to 30%. I hate to buy a car now and a year or two later found out they update it with better hardware.

I hear you; I'm basically in the same position. 2003 OB w/ 140K miles and starting to need some work. I think to hold me over, I'm going to swap my 2003 OB + $3300 for my Mom's 2002 OB w/ 50K miles. Mom will then trade in my 2003 on a 2011 OB; she was going to trade in her 2002 (for $3300 more). I'm basically "buying" 90K miles for $3300.

ateixeira

Tucson is still a bit small for me, just 52 cubes of cargo space to Forester's 68 IIRC.

That's why I also listed the Sorento, though. It's right-sized, not too big, not too small. I needs the 200hp DI version of that Theta engine, though.

If we were shopping today, I might put my wife in a 31mpg highway Legacy sedan/CVT.

I'd still keep the minivan for the heavy hauling. This weekend it's taking a new dishwasher, microwave, luggage, and 4 people to the beach for a long weekend. I almost thought about squeezing in a refridgerator, too!

zman3

Subaru is selling more vehicles right now in the US than they ever have, but they don't really have class-leading technology at all. In fact they barely make the grade. I'm not real sure what are the key elements of their sales volume, but my opinion is that this ride won't last forever and they better start producing more technically competitive vehicles in the next few years.

Amen. I will be replacing my OB in about 2 years. I am not sure Subaru will be the choice next time around and most of it centers around powertrain. I think the 4 cylinder needs more power through something like DI. Just as important however, I cannot believe they still stick a 4 speed auto in the Forester. I find that almost embarrassing at this point.

ic_designer

Anyone knows whether the water pump is driven by chain or driven by external belt for the new 2011 Forester engine? My H6 water pump is driven by chain, and the water pump is located inside the chain housing. It will be quite a work to replace the water pump if it is located inside the chain housing.

raycc

$3300 for 90K miles is not bad

dino001

I think Subaru's strength was generated primarily by financial strength of its customers combined with some spot-on features. In other words, Subaru's cutomers are well-off enough to afford a vehicle that may be thousands or even tens of thousands more, but they choose to buy what matters to them, which is price, safety and reliabilty. They walk away from razzle-dazzle look-how-cool-I-am-for-having-latest-and-greatest styling and content and get something basic that performs well. "Love" campaign is probably their best advertising effort ever with every new commercial better than the previous.

Will this streak last? Hard to say. I will be first to complain about their reaaaaalllyyyy sloooooowwwww implementation of new features, both mechanical (like transmission or engines) and convenience (like HID lamps or similar). Some of their optioning schemes are simply ridiculous, like my STI did not have fog light standard, but to get them as an option I would have to buy overpriced wheels together (same to Nav - tying it to those wheels is pretty stupid).

There is some logic in what they do. Others are fast to sell you some beta-version feature and then your car has to stay in dealer's garage to fix those gremlins. Also, AWD standard puts a severe cost pressure on them to keep their price in striking range from Accords and Camries - which results in some cheapening out, not surprisingly. Keeping old tech gives you cost advantage and reliability. On the other hand, one has to be careful not to overdo it.

Until the recent blowup, Toyota was a world champion in "just on time" delivery of features in their lineup. For example, when crash safety was not in focus yet, you would not find side impact airbags on any but top trim V6 Camry. However, when it became desired, you suddenly saw it standard in low trims. GM would be just the opposite - always wrong timing. They added ABS when nobody cared yet and then took it off, when people just noticed it could be good to have one standard.

ateixeira

Others are fast to sell you some beta-version feature and then your car has to stay in dealer's garage to fix those gremlins

VW did have some issues with carbon build-up in the early 2.0Ts, which are direct-injected.

Still, they have a CVT and a 5EAT, yet the Forester soldiers on without either. Meanwhile even Kia makes a 6 speed standard on the Sportage.

colin_l

You forgot to mention the six speed dual-clutch sequential automatic (DSG) which I've driven and loved. VW bought that tech from a 3rd party, but it's in the car isn't it?

ateixeira

I don't think the Tiguan gets that.

I guess I'm always thinking Forester and its class. Other dubs do get it, and yes they're ahead of Kia.

Kia built their own, at least, plus what's impressive is the price point. VW is beyond Subaru, but Kia is well below.

colin_l

Oh, yep you are correct, the Tiguan doesn't have DSG. The Jetta, Golf, Passat and CC have it available with most (but not all) engines.

ateixeira

Looks like Kia Sportage gets full-time AWD, now, too.

It also uses a brake-based hill holder function.

Not bad for $19 grand.

tifighter

I will assume you guys have already seen this one. At least the CVT will go to wider distribution...