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Comments
When did they switch from FSI to TFSI?
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
The engine covers give it away, they look different.
IMHO, FWD hatchbacks don't have soul. To me the BMW 635csi exemplifies "soul", or an air cooled 911 widebody. :shades:
You need to test-drive a Mini Cooper, GTI, MazdaSpeed3, or Civic Si.
Bob
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
I would say even my Miata lacks soul.
It's not even always a good thing. An older Maserati has soul, but it's also a guarantee that your mechanic can afford braces for his kids. All 7 of them.
Of the models you listed, the Cooper comes closest to what I'm thinking of. Even then, it's more character than soul.
Soul is a feeling - it cannot be described but rather felt.
I think all the FWD vehicles I mentioned have soul, some character too.
Bob
It probably doesn't. The WRX may.
IMHO, it's not about power either. GTI has soul - the R32 doesn't. The 128i has soul - the M3 doesn't. The Fit has soul - no other Honda does. No current Toyota has soul - the first gen MR2 did.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hope folks realized that my comment regarding "soul" in the post above was a tongue-in-cheek one. I personally have absolutely no requirement for "soul" as long as the product runs well with no problems otherwise.....in other words, I prefer a "reliable soul".
A Fit doesn't have soul, for me, because nothing that died sacrificed its soul for a Fit.
A new age CRX, on the other hand...say Honda built a truly sporty CR-Z. Mmm, now that would have a soul.
BMW 135i? It should have been a new-age 2002, but most agree it's not.
NA Miata had a soul, oddly enough, from the old Lotus Elan.
I'm not sure about the new GTI. Does it remind me of the original 1984 model? It's too plush, heavy, complex. Maybe.
That's too limiting. I don't think it needs to be based on an earlier version. To me, if a car has "soul," it means there is something very special and/or unique about "driving" it. It's a very "positive" thing. An example might be a new Porsche.
That's not necessarily the same as "character," which to me means the car might be a bit "odd" in a good or bad way. An example might be anything British, especially those from decades back.
Bob
MS3? No. And for sure I don't buy the ads that claim the Tribute has "the soul of a sports car", more like the soul of an Escape.
Mini Cooper? I may have to eat my words and say it does. At least the JCW model, I suppose. Price certainly removes it from the bang-for the-buck category its predecessor competed in, so call that's gray area.
Civic Si? No soul, but a hatchback euro Type-R does.
R32? No way. Doesn't relate in any way, shape or form to the 84 original.
Perhaps...I guess I'd allow for British Roadster => NA Miata for instance.
That VW Bus concept from a few years ago was just overflowing with soul:
The VW Routan has zero soul, in fact it's the very definition of a vehicle lacking soul.
IMHO, soul has nothing to do with heritage. The WRX has soul (at least the first one) because of driving dynamics. The STI - nope. It's too much of a brute.
I'd even say the Cayman has more soul than the 911. An SVX has soul as does a 16V Scirocco and a gen one MR2. Alfa Spyders are dripping with it.
Soul puts a s**t eating grin on your face every day. Soul makes you want to get out and drive it all the time whether it's in the city or on the backroads. Soul lets you look past the broken window regulators.
Brute means no soul to you?
I think brute only helps, especially the air cooled 911s that loved to swap ends. More than any stability-control "enhanced" 911.
The idea that you'd need skill to drive it properly only adds to the phenomenon of soul.
If that's all a vehicle has going for it, then yes. Lots of HP and gobs of torque doesn't equal soul.
The 911 swapping ends is more the loss of delicate balance. You don't need brute force to oversteer. I've done it with an 84 Cavalier with a 4 speed and 2.0 putting out 80 HP!!
It was on dry pavement. IIRC, Off ramp, 3rd gear, slight tap of the brakes, worn tires on rear, wheeeeeeehhhhh.
I don't think HP/torque is all it has going for it...
What I meant is that if all a vehicle has is HP/Torque, then I consider it brutish.
I guess I'm more like Captain Slow than Jez.
In other words, when one thinks of Toyota, what does one think of ? Utterly reliable (except for the recent mis-steps) and well-built cars that will run with relatively low maintenance.....the soul exists in the Corolla, I suppose. The Camry has it. The Yaris has it. But vehicles like the Tundra does not.
When one thinks of Honda, one thinks of utterly reliable and well built cars but with a certain amount of sportiness mixed in. Case in point are the Civic (sportier when compared to the Corolla), the Accord (sportier when compared to the Camry), Fit (sportier when compared to the Yaris)....and so on. So all of these cars have captured the essence of what Honda is and thus come with Honda's soul. A car like the S2000 encapsulates the "sporty" aspect that Honda injects into their pedestrian models by having that "sporty" character in gobs and is thus filled with soul. Thus all of these cars embody Honda's soul. A car like the Pilot does not and was clearly created to plug a gap in Honda's vehicle portfolio.
When it comes to Subaru, I believe it is the Forester that captures its back-to-the-roots outdoorsy soul of the company. The newer outbacks have shifted away from it for the most part. The Tribeca is an aberration when it comes to capturing Subaru's soul, and clearly is a vehicle that was created to broaden Subaru's vehicle portfolio - like Honda did with the Pilot. The WRX is really a tarted up base-Impreza econobox fitted with a stiffer suspension and a Turbo and I doubt it has captured the soul of the company. The STI is the purest expression in their road going versions, that captures the rally essense of Subaru - not in terms of the power it puts out but in terms of everything else that it brings to the table and thus encapsulates the rally-roots-soul of the company.
And so on....
Sorry, I disagree. The WRX is nothing but a tarted up base Impreza with stiffer suspension, larger wheels and a Turbo engine. In other words, even single component in a WRX is interchangeable (swap-off/bolt-on) with the rest of the econo-boxy Impreza line. It captures nothing, as far as "soul" of Subaru is concerned and is nothing but a serious money-maker for the manufacturer and is a "rally roots" pretender. Believe it or not, other than the Turbo engine, the WRX has more commonality with the base impreza than the STI, including all of the behind-the-scenes hardware, the diffs etc.
The STI is a unique animal in the Subaru lineup. Not even the wheels that come on the STI are interchangeable with a single other Subaru vehicle (whether we are talking about the WRX or whether we are talking about the base Impreza or whether we are talking about the Legacy/Outback or whether we are talking about the Tribeca).....it just cannot be physically fitted ! The front/center/rear diffs of the STI, the Turbo engine (the USDM version is of course larger than the "standard"), the "rawness" of expression it brings to the table are the purest distillation of a rally car soul that a road going car is ever going to get. Very little is being held back to soften it up and take away its essence/soul. This is no pretender and offers no apology for what it is. There is no "tarting up" here, since this is the real deal. As you say, it is a brute....rally cars are brutes by necessity and not by choice. And from that perspective, the STI (even though the USDM version shifts a bit away from the closer-to-ideal SPEC-C version) does capture Subaru's rally roots soul.....even if not the back-to-the-roots-outdoorsy soul that the Forester captures. :shades:
Ridiculous. Overseas WRX is THE Subaru. When I told my friends back in Poland that I had Subaru my first WRX), they immediately thought it was the WRX - didn't have to say it. They weren't even aware of a "slow" Imprezas, for them Subaru meant World Rally, World Rally meant WRX, period. Sure, they don't see difference between STI and WRX, either, but who cares - really. Turbo is a turbo, is a turbo (for lay people, anyway).
I always say Subaru has a dual personality disorder. One one side we have a tree-hugging Outback/Forester thing, on the other we have STI, WRX. That's why it is a little hard to say what "true spirit" of Subaru is. It all depends where you live - literally.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I'm one and one on the gaskets on 2 BD Legacys. We've never had a VW product in the immediate family, but my father-in-law's A6 was crumbling around him, he traded it off just before the warranty expired for an LS400, which has been trouble free for 6 years now. I am by no means a VW fanboi.....I just really enjoyed driving the 2010 TDi and GTi back to back
this here Cooper S Clubman of ours.... definitely a je ne se quoi thing happening. I try to explain why I love it, I even let some people drive it....and they just don't get it. YES it's got a quirky interior YES it has hard seats YES it torque steers like a '96 Viggen YES the suspension is hard YES the run-flats are harder YES the 17"s force the discussion from hard to brutal YES the ipod interface is useless YES the sunroof is noisy and YES there's more road noise than the Bolt Bus.....but
but
but.
I would drive it all day every day if I could, and I weep that I don't have the time or the means for track days and autocross anymore. This car is Good. Not good, Good. Platonic Good. It's ridiculous that this car, with all those buts, gets built by a major manufacturer.
I love I have a toggle switch for the rear fog light. I love hearing the turbo spool up, and I can ever hear the waste valve sometimes. I can hear the car miss slightly between 1-2 and 2-3....with the stock exhaust! (Ok, you really gotta listen hard, but it's there)
I love that my daughter can pop the seat and the club door on her own.
I love the brutal suspension. I love the torque steer that threatens to un-limb me if I am accelerating hard over a frost heave. It keeps me alert, you know? I love that the car will majorly attempt to swap ends with abrupt mid corner throttle lift, it reminds me I HAVE to get to a track day, this car is beyond my abilities.
I love the little arms that pop out of the headlights to squirt wiper fluid on them. Not every time I squirt the windshield mind you, just once and a while. When the car feels its prudent. And right now, as of today, its fuel consumption average for the last 2 tanks is 31.8 mpg. yea sure premium ok whatever, it's still very economical.
so yea, I'm in love. Smitten. I wish we had two. No wait, I wish we had three. A Cooper S, this Clubman S, and then maybe something Impreza sized to haul the family which I suppose would actually be a 3 series wagon but I'm not a [non-permissible content removed] or even rich so that's not happening and oh yea we bought this Clubbie used so right there I couldn't have afforded it. Not new. Sigh.
:shades:
This is what I refer to when I say a vehicle has soul.
I guess we'll have to disagree. Again, IMHO the STI does not have soul. It may convey the rally racing heritage of the company but it's not the type of car that brings a total feeling of simple fun to the driver. Heritage does not equal soul.
Remember - it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car fast.
WRX is really a tarted up base-Impreza econobox
Or it's a Group N rally car minus the roll cage. It all depends on your perspective.
To me the Impreza has so much soul the color World Rally Blue has become synonymous with the Subaru brand.
And what about the 5x112mm bolt pattern for the STi wheels? Isn't that just a matter of swapping out the half shafts? The whole block on the WRX is different than the base Impreza, which is a heck of a lot more difference if you ask me.
Believe you me, if it was just a matter of swapping out the half shafts, hundreds of Nasiocers would be on the 5x114.3" bolt pattern that the STI comes with.
As a Honda Fit driver, you are preaching to the choir.
However, as STI drivers will attest, once you drive the STI and get used to how the funky mechanical differentials in the front (helical), center (planetary gear based) and rear (Torsen) behave and operate, and how they make even pedestrian drivers feel like Richard Burns, by constantly adjusting and re-adjusting the power distribution front-to-rear, rear-to-front, side-to-side depending on how one is driving, it will be tough to go back to vehicles that run with open diffs in the front and the rear (like the rest of the Subaru Impreza line, upto and including the WRX) and a cheap-azz viscous diff in the center (like the rest of the Impreza line, upto and including the WRX).
Remember, when one goes along a curve or take a turn, the inner and outer wheels move at differing speeds.....the open diffs - which are effectively an econo-car phenomenon called "peg legging" - in the WRX and rest of the Imprezas, are not helping the car at all when it comes to carving it through the turn. I have open diffs in my Honda Fit.
As it stands, IMHO, the STI is bargain basement priced at its current pricing (approx.$35-36K base) for what it comes with, while the higher trim levels of the WRX (approx.$29K) are seriously overpriced......if that makes sense. Unfortunately, the normal buying public looks at the turbo engine that is present in the WRX and the STI and looks at the "close enough" power numbers and think these 2 vehicles are close enough. As stated earlier, there is a wider chasm between the WRX and the STI, than between the base Impreza and the WRX, as far as the underlying mechanicals are concerned - believe it or not !
The STI comes with 4 doors and a hatch and is daily driveable with a full complement of creature comforts, upto and including Automatic Climate control, NAV and 6-CD changer. This is not some freak that the manufacturer has created as a one-off exercise, unlike monsters like the Dodge Viper etc. The STI is the purest and unsullied distillation of Subaru's Rally DNA and nothing else in the Subaru lineup (upto and including the WRX) echoes their rally heritage as much as the STI does. If the STI does not have soul, then nothing else in the Subaru lineup does. :shades:
I have an open front differential in my Evo and have literally never spun the front inside tire cornering hard, on dry road, in 90k miles. I drive 'spiritedly' when I'm the only one in the car.
So, all that whiz-bang stuff in the STi isn't really all that relevant for the street. (I understand it sells cars, and that it is critically important for track/race use.) What is felt is the basic handling balance, and that's moderate to heavy understeer. You don't need to be going crazy-fast to feel that.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/01/subaru-forester-gets-new-engine-for-2011-impr- - - - oved-fuel-economy/
The engine is still a 2.5 unit, but is slightly larger due (2,498 cc vs. 2,457 cc) to a longer stroke.
From the press release:
Forester®
• All-new engine for Forester 2.5X models (turbocharged 2.5XT retains current engine); new bore/stroke dimensions with slightly longer stroke; displacement slightly larger (2,498 cc vs. 2,457 cc); chain driven double overhead cam vs. belt driven single overhead cam before; 170 horsepower is same as before, at slightly lower rpm; torque is up to 174 lb.-ft. at 4,100 rpm (vs. 170 @ 4,400 rpm); fuel economy is improved: 2011 manual and automatic transmissions -- 21 mpg city / 27 mpg highway vs. 2010 20/27 for manual and 20/26 for automatic.
• New 2.5X Touring positioned above Limited: features HID headlights (low beam) with automatic height adjustment; display audio system with backup camera; dual zone automatic climate control; silver finish roof rails; electroluminescent gauges, and side mirrors with integrated turn signals.
• 2.5XT models now include 2.5XT Premium and 2.5XT Touring, the latter replacing 2.5XT Limited as top Forester model.
• 2.5XT Premium gets new 10-way power driver's seat.
• Bluetooth® standard on all but base model.
• Backup camera standard on 2.5X Touring and 2.5XT Touring as part of new audio system.
• New standard audio system for 2.5X Premium and 2.5XT Premium: AM/FM stereo with single-disc CD player and six speakers; 3.5mm auxiliary input jack; Bluetooth® hands free calling and audio streaming; iPod control capability; USB port and Sirius Satellite Radio capability.
• New optional TomTom Navigation System for 2.5X Premium includes removable 4.3-inch touch-screen portable navigation device; AM/FM stereo with single-disc CD/DVD player and six speakers; 3.5mm auxiliary input jack; Bluetooth hands free calling; iPod control capability and USB port. Also, a backup camera is available as an accessory with this system.
• New audio system with rear camera for 2.5X Limited and Touring and 2.5XT Touring models: AM/FM stereo with single-disc CD/DVD player and six speakers; 4.3-inch display screen, Radio Broadcast Data System; 3.5mm auxiliary input jack; Bluetooth hands free calling and audio streaming; iPod control capability; USB port and Sirius Satellite Radio capability. (The backup camera is standard on 2.5X Touring and 2.5XT Touring and available as an accessory for 2.5X Limited.)
• Driver's auto up/down window with pinch protection (except base model).
• New 17-inch alloy wheel design for 2.5X Premium.
• New body-color roof spoiler on 2.5XT models
Bob
Not overly impressed with the very humble power and fuel efficiency improvements.
I'm sure this will eventually replace the existing 2.5 in all model applications. I also wouldn't be surprised to see this engine being used with turbos, and maybe even diesels (rumored WRX/STI diesel?).
Bob
I think it would also be prudent to offer the 16" alloys that were just added to the X "SE" package as an option for higher trim levels. I like the smaller rim size and know of many others, around here at least, that do as well. I have thought about asking a new X owner that has one here at work if they want to swap rims, but my wife thinks its silly. Of course, she's not the one who pays for new tires, either!
Subaru is on a roll now sales-wise, but they are falling farther and farther behind in the technology department. I wonder how much longer before sales level out and the competition sprints ahead...
Note the new bore/stroke ratio.
Why?
There is more power available throughout the entire rev range, and especially between 2K and 3K, which where the vehicle will spend most of its life. So, yes, "max" power is about the same, but "useful" power is up. Heard that from someone in the know.
Bob
I still think this is an incremental/preparatory move toward more significant engine modifications.
Legislated increments in those CAFE numbers will be the principal drivers of automotive design changes! Expect more such changes including reduced engine displacements and horsepower. The incremented wheelbase and track changes in Subaru models were partially driven by the CAFE vehicle size formula which assigns MPG requirements according to the product of track times wheelbase. Remember that adding a fender bulge is cheap.