Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira

Sounds like they're just trying to look high tech. BMW, that is. Looks like a cartoon character's eyes.

Osman: you got cold air induction? An intercooler under there? That would be sweet.

Round seems to be in. Round or oval lights, that is. Even the squarish ones now have round projectors inside, peeking out, even.

To me, the Rex's taillights looks like the Infiniti I30's.

Drew: I REALLY like that E class. That's the best looking Benz so far. Gorgeous. More sleek than the current one by far, and the lights look much better pulled back a bit without getting goofy big.

I even like the taillights. It looks like a big C class, but styled even better. Very nice. Though the changes are subtle, it's a huge improvement - I'm kind of neutral on the current one.

If they sold an E260 (2.6l V6, 6 speed) sedan for $35k, I'd strongly consider one for the wife. I know, they won't. BMW sells a stripper 5 series with a 2.5l for $36k, so one can hope.

The SL isn't as nice, IMO. I'm sure mechanically it'll be sweet, but the hardtop roof looks out of proportion. You get a small hat on a huge body look. The middle and rear look unfinished. To me the hardtop compromises styling.

-juice

bluesubie

Lots of headlight discussion to pass along to your FHI and PP buddies. :-)
Dennis

rsholland

the rear center brake light, which is now just above the the 3-pointed star on the rear deck.

I have yet to see a vehicle in which the center brake light, that is mounted on the rear deck (as opposed to the rear window) that I like. The rear of Cadillacs have this hideous long brake light on their rear deck, and now so does Mercedes. It looks terrible.

I'm all for high-mounted rear center brake lights from a safety standpoint. Visually the only ones that please my aesthetic taste are those that are "buried" in the rear window, and only show themselves when the brakes are applied.

Bob

ateixeira

But lights in the window obstruct the view, at least partially. I guess it's a compromise.

With taller and taller vehicles out there, a HIGH mounted light is a good idea, though.

-juice

rsholland

The only time they need to be seen, is when the brakes are applied. I have never had a problem seeing the center brake lights that are located in the rear window when the brakes are applied.

I find that center brake lights that are mounted in the rear window are visually pleasing—because you normally don't see them. The center brake lights on the rear deck that I have seen to date, I've found to be visually offensive. Hopefully someday the designers will be able to integrate this element "naturally into the rear design of the vehicle, so that it looks like it belongs. So far, every one, including the new Mercedes, looks like it was just "stuck" there, with little thought as to how it works with all the other design elements.

Bob

ateixeira

I meant the view for the driver.

I think they're OK in either location. The ones that are really hideous are like the ones on the old Sidekick, that used to stick out over the spare on a plastic arm. Looks ridiculous.

-juice

rsholland

it could be designed to work with the rear window trim?

Most manufacturers use the center of the rear deck to feature a logo of some sort. Center brake lights mounted just above the logo, "compete" with the logo for attention, and frankly, make it (the logo and rear) look ugly.

Bob

ateixeira

So remove the logo. ;-)

I like debadged vehicles.

-juice

rsholland

but I'm not going out of my way to remove a logo. It's up to the manufacturer to design it properly, IMO.

The rear of most vehicles, including Subarus, are nothing but a "heap" of unrelated badging. It seems like only the luxury European brands use any degree of restraint when it comes to rear-end badging.

And... it gets worse when dealers stick their hideous advertising badges on the rear trunk and license plate. That's a HOT BUTTON for me!

Bob

kens

Came across this on i-club:

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=70525&referrerid=0

Some guy claims he got the ok to provide more details on future models. Don't know who he is but he claims he got the info based on some USA-wide Subaru meeting.

Basically:

- WRX STi is coming, BUT in very limited quantities -- 40 for the first year.

- The BRAT is going to be powered by the H6 or 2.5

- New Forester in Feb/Mar 02. A turbo engine will be offered!

- 7 Passenger Forester in Feb/Mar 03!

- Sport Legacy (B4?) also intros in Feb/Mar 03.

Patti??? ;-)

Ken

ateixeira

The only surprise on that list is the 7 passenger Forester for 2003. We expected it for 2005. Let's hope.

If the B4 comes out at the same time, I'll put my wife in both and let her choose - space or sportiness. What a couple of fine choices those ought to be. Man, I sure hope so.

Did you guys read the sport/luxury sedan comparo Edmunds did? I found the Top 10 Features part interesting. Let's see how the H6 models stack up, just for fun:

Automanual or manual option - NO
Dual zone climate control - NO
In-dash CD changer - LL Bean only, right?
Nav system - NO
One touch open/close sunroof - NO
Power seats - YES
Curtain air bags - NO
Stability Control - YES on VDC
Tilt/Telescope wheel - Tilt only IIRC, 1/2 credit
HIDs - NO

So each model scores 2.5 out of 10. They would not be last in that test, but they'd be an also-ran. But that's not giving them credit for AWD and the extra space a wagon provides.

-juice

qbrozen

40 STis?? That just can't be right. How could that possibly give them any indication of anything? That's not even 1 per state! What would be the point? To see how much a person would pay for one? What are they looking to do? Get $100K for each of the 40?

What kind of hoops must a manufacturer jump through to get a new model imported to the US? Are there any? I really don't know the process. If there is any time or money involved, I couldn't see them going through all of that for 40 lousy cars and $30K a pop.

Their MUST be some zeros missing from that. I would believe something more like 4,000. I really hope this isn't true. I will need to buy a car next summer and I was hoping the STi would be a choice.

tincup47

There a a lot of hoops to go through, Safety Testing, environmental testing etc. 40 does seem ridiculously low, given the number of dealers Subaru has. Unless you want a disgruntled dealer body, each dealer that meets CSI targets should get at least one. I find this info suspect all around, since most manufacturers don't confirm this type of info this early, especially like this.

kens

According the the post, the STi will be sold on a lottery-based system. Sounds kind of crazy, but maybe it's the fact that Subaru is already at their CAFE limits with the current WRX engine. No doubt, such a low number of STis will cause upwards price pressure.

Ken

rsholland

Only 40 STi models? I read on the NZ Subaru web site, that they (NZ) are only scheduled for 15 STis for the entire year! Of course these numbers for both the USA and NZ might be for just the first year, with increased production for following years.

The I-Club post did not refer to the 7-passenger SUV as a "Forester."

Disappointed to hear the "hot" Legacy is not for MY 03, but MY 04 (if I understand the post correctly).

Bob

rsholland

http://www.subaru.co.nz/scrap_frameset.html

NZ has sold 2 dozen STis even before any of them hit New Zealand, supposedly this past June. The next shipment isn't due until late this year.

If you scroll down further, you will see a topic called "STi on the Horizon." In that article it was mentioned that NZ is only going to get 15 models for the year.

So... NZ is getting more than 15 models, but probably less than 50 for the entire year.

Perhaps what SOA was referring to was the "first batch" of STis will only be 40 models—meaning there could be an additional batch to come later?

In any case, whether it's 40 or 400, you can expect it to be a very limited edition model, with dealers charging out the whazoo for it.

Bob

ateixeira

I think 400 is more like it. 40 is too low. 4000 is too high. They've only allocated 10,000 WRXs for the first year, so no way would an STi model make up 40% of the total.

Let it be rare, IMO. Can you imagine a collectible Subie? Sweet. It'll create a mystique, and bless future models with a soul.

Remember - the Impreza is already certified for sale, so they only have to certify the engine. So low volumes are quite possible.

-juice

qbrozen

At 400, they would still be unattainable by the likes of me. Most of them would be swept up by people who will resell them for a large profit. You'll see spots on waiting lists being sold on Ebay. It will be rare to see a true fan actually driving one.

Not exactly my ideal vision. It makes me ill when I see it happening to other vehicles on the market and I'd hate even more to see it happen to a Subaru.

rsholland

A rare and highly desirable Subaru will do wonders for Subaru's performance image. Unfortunately, it will also pi%* off a lot of "mere mortals" who would really like to own one.

Bob

locke2c

quote: Sounds kind of crazy, but maybe it's the fact that Subaru is already at their CAFE limits with the current WRX engine.

Subaru is going to find it very hard to meet the fleet mileage standards unless they release something with a smaller or more efficient engine. Often this goes over best if it's mated with a small car-- platform sharing with GM perhaps? Anyway, if they don't meet CAFE then they pay the penalties, which would get added onto sticker prices. (You don't really think Mercedes-Benz meets CAFE do you?)

40 cars would not affect CAFE in any way-- think about the impact of 40 cars, even if they got a lowly 15mpg (which they would NOT) against many tens of thousands of other cars.

I'd say some of the info is correct, some of it is rumor linked by marketing to see user reaction, and some of it is just BS.

-Colin

ateixeira

I agree it would be nice to keep the speculators out. What if they only sold it to current Subie owners? Or perhaps only to SCCA members?

They could even offer it through the Needless Markup Holiday Catalog, like the Z3 and the T bird.

But try this. Think of the most exotic Porsche you've ever seen. 959, right? That's what most americans would say. It never sold here. The exclusivity and rarity are what made it a supercar legend.

-juice

rsholland

You're probably right in that there is some "misinformation" deliberately being passed on by SOA, just to get a reaction on how to proceed. That would not surprise me in the least.

Bob

bluesubie

is right on too. You should post there to stir them up a bit.
Dennis

qbrozen

Can somebody explain this CAFE thing to me? It has to do with mileage? Am I reading into that correctly?

thanks

paisan

The reason I think they are moving them to the rear deck lid, is because of the obstruction that spoilers cause to rear glass mounted ones. In NJ if you get a spoiler with a 3rd brake light, you need to disconnect the one in the back window. I just don't like 3rd brake lights for the most part at all.

-mike

tincup47

SOA had anything to do with that info getting out. That is not how marketing or product planning works. I could maybe understand leaking STI info on I-club, but since the members on that are not your mainstream Subaru customer why would they leak that info there instead of on Edmunds?

bluesubie

"but since the members on that are not your mainstream Subaru customer"
Why do you say that? I'm a member, as well as paisan, Colin, juice, Bob, etc.
Dennis

paisan

Don't forget the I-club got to go and TEST DRIVE CARS in AZ and I believe SOA paid for them to go to chicago for SIPP (forgot what the acronym stands for Subaru Internet something something) We here ad edmunds didn't get any of that VIP treatment. That in and of itself shows you how they rank the i-club members as compared to the edmunds ones.

-mike

bluesubie

I believe the SIPP is made up of web page hosts (not just i-clubbers) and was based on the traffic on their sites.
Dennis

ateixeira

For the most part, he's right. I Clubbers are serious enthusiasts. So are we regulars, really.

But we get more casual visitors, i.e. normal people. They've got a lot more amateur rally drivers.

CAFE = corporate average fuel economy. Each manufacturer is supposed to have a fleet average of 20.7mpg for trucks, and 27.5 mpg for cars.

Last year Subaru was right at the limit, so any less efficient vehicle sales would mean CAFE fines.

Maybe they could offer the 2.0l 156hp engine from Japan in value-price Impreza to offset STi sales. Though I doubt it its EPA mpg numbers will be much lower than the WRX.

-juice

bluesubie

juice said we're normal people. :-)

Hey, can they get GM to cough up some of the CAFE fines SoA might get?

Dennis

locke2c

Dennis, sometimes I grow weary of being one of the only posters using anything that resembles logic. I think I'll pass on posting in the iClub topic. (yeah I know I post there plenty...)

CAFE is Corporate Average Fuel Economy. I couldn't tell you the current MPG standards for certain-- it's gotta be here on the web somewhere, just search-- but I do believe it's close to where Subaru's models are at right now. If you're below that mark, you pay penalties. There's also the Gas Guzzler tax for cars with really poor overall MPG, but it's unlikely that anything Subaru would ever be hit by that. Go to carpoint.msn.com (sorry Edmunds!) and look at the price details for a Viper if you're curious how much the GG tax is. I think it's like $3,000-5,000.

-Colin

ateixeira

Actually, we regulars are not normal. I foam at the mouth when I think of an SVX convertible.

-juice

paisan

Normal is not something people describe me as!

All this *after* juice has been in my car for a few hours! Wow.

-mike

bluesubie

Someone posted a link for the 99 or 00's recently. I think Subaru was right on the border of having to pay fines.
Dennis

qbrozen

do they use the highest number (i.e. highway mileage) or do they average the 2 numbers?

I notice that most of the Soobs have highway mileage of 27 and 28 mpg, so I assume they are using the highway number.

But, I could see them pushing it since they did remove the 2.2 from the lineup. Their smallest NA engine is now the 2.5.

I think they should get a credit for all the cars having AWD. Or they could always rig it or lie or whatever the heck GM does to get the ratings that they do (30 mpg on a 3.8 liter Impala automatic?? Yeah, right! And the Z28 gets better highway mileage than the WRX??).

ateixeira

Check out post 2531 for the CAFE numbers. It's a busy topic so some skipped it.

I'm not sure how they measure. Remember, this is federal government we're talking about here, I'm sure it's mega-complicated.

GM uses tall overdrive gears to achieve those numbers. EPA tests cars on a dyno, not in the real world, so the numbers aren't always accurate.

-juice

qbrozen

Well, that makes some sense. But, I still don't buy it. I've never gotten that kind of mileage out of ANY GM product. But, like you said, real world is different.

Then, in that case, I vote for a 6-spd on the WRX with a tall final gear. That will take care of that, right? I don't know how the final gear is on the STi, but that might help the situation as well.

armac13

As the resident brain squeezer, I can assure you that none of the regulars here fit the definition of "normal". :~) I for one am glad for that!

Ross

tincup47

What SOA thinks of the members of I-Club, but I'm sure they make up a very small percentage of Subaru owners. Most manufactures wouldn't leak this type of info.

ateixeira

Think about it - the car is stationary on a dyno, so aerodynamic drag isn't taken into affect. A really tall gear works out to your advantage here since there is no real load being placed on the engine. In the real world, it would need to down shift to get into the torque curve.

Subaru's numbers on my Forester are about accurate. It may be a little low for city. Other manufacturers' numbers are artificially high or low.

-juice

qbrozen

Oh, I'm not arguing with ya. I just meant to say I think it really sucks. My 21/26 rated Forester gets a consistent 24 mpg plus on the highway, while my now disowned Dodge Dakota V8 was rated at 15/19 and I could NEVER get it above 14 mpg. I think the whole system should be revamped. You know that its just not working when you can look at most American cars and trucks and expect to get city mileage no matter what, but you can look at most Japanese models and expect almost highway mileage out of it. I think its aggravating.

I'm the type of person that always thinks there is a conspiracy at hand when it comes to big business.

paisan

I have a few friends with vettes who actually attain the 28-30+ MPG when cruising on the highway in 6th gear.

-mike

ateixeira

We're not paranoid. Just ask all the people following us! ;-)

Hmm, I did some analysis. Volvo has a 2.4l engine N/A and with a light pressure turbo. Output for the base engine is similar to our 2.5l boxer, so it would be reasonable to expect a similar output increase from a LPT Forester.

That translates to about 195 hp and 200 lb-ft of torque and a low-low rpm. Not screaming fast output, but useful torque for sure.

If it weighs less than the H6, bring it on.

-juice

locke2c

it wouldn't weigh less than the H6. the H6 is about 80lb heavier than the EJ25 and I've installed a turbo kit on an RS... not light. easily that same 80lb, although it is a bit farther back in the engine bay.

-Colin

rsholland

A low-pressure 2.5 turbo would be ideal for the Forester—and Legacy—and Outback...

Bob

ateixeira

Then let production cost determine which engine to use. I'd expect the H4-LPT to cost less to manufacture than the H6.

I'm a little concerned with the next Forester's curb weight. I think the Outback and Impreza porked up a bit (beefed up, too, but still).

-juice

drew_

As a matter of fact, MB does meet and exceed the CAFE standard because as of 1999, it is combined with Chrysler under DaimlerChrysler. Before that, they missed the 27.5 mpg average for cars by 0.3 mpg for 1998 (before most of their cars were upgraded to the much more fuel efficient engines, and before the current S-class came out), but surpassed the truck standard at 21.3 mpg.


Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

locke2c

Thanks for the info Drew. How about Bentley then? Or Porsche?

Anyway my point is that you can sell cars in the US and not meet CAFE, you just pay for it.

-Colin

drew_

Yeah, Porsche, Ferrari all have to pay fines, but they can obviously afford it.


Selling all of those Neons helps to offset the lower fuel consumption of the MB larger cars, of course.


Check it out:
http://www.automotivenews.com/html/main/stories/cafenumbers612.htm