Subaru Crew - Future Models II

drew_

...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!

http://www.edmunds.com/chat/subaruchat.html

kostamojen2

Ive heard several people quote stuff from those Arizona reps at that big drive thing, and all of the quotes have been different...

And 40 STi's is just insane :P

rsholland

http://www.veh-tech.net/

At least they will be testing one publicly using the Forester as the test vehicle.

Bob

qbrozen

According to those numbers, it looks to me like Ford domestic cars, GM trucks, Chrysler imports, and Volvo ALL didn't meet the standards. So, what does that say? Seems to me like its not that big of a deal if all of them did it and the universe didn't implode. So, what would be the big deal if Subaru didn't make it?

bluesubie

Rob, fines range from a few hundred thousand to several million dollars. This page shows the 98 fines (towards the bottom).

http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/auto/cafenhtsa.html

"49 U.S.C. 32912(b) imposes a civil penalty of $5.50 for each tenth of a mpg by which a manufacturer's CAFE level falls short of the standard, multiplied by the total number of passenger automobiles or light trucks produced by the manufacturer in that model year. Credits earned for exceeding the standard in any of the three model years immediately prior to or subsequent to the model years in question can be used to offset the penalty"

qbrozen

In other words, if a manufacturer missed it by, say 2/10ths, then that would add $11 to each vehicle? Heck, I could live with paying an extra $11 for my new car if it meant getting the STi over here.

Thanks for the info.

rsholland

that when the "hot" Legacy arrives (in decent numbers), the fact that the STi will be so limited, will ease the pain. The STi is for the hard-core, the WRX and hot Legacy will be for the mainstream enthusiast.

I don't know about the rest of the folks on this board, but I doubt I would purchase an STi, even if I could afford it. The WRX and/or a hot Legacy... now that's different story.

Bob

paisan

If I could afford it, I'd get it to compliment the SVX and XT6:) But then again I also have the Trooper too, so I like to segment my cars like that.

-mike

rsholland

Where do you keep all your cars? Garage space in NYC must be expensive.

Bob

subearu

I agree with Bob - the STi will have a certain 'special' feel to it that only a select number really want. The hot B4-Blitzen-like Legacy is more for Joe Q Public, as is the WRX.

Provided the hot Legacy isn't more than $30k (around $25k?), I'll be first in SE Wisconsin to get one.

-Brian

paisan

Well on SI we have plenty of parking. 2 cars in the driveway + 2 in front of the house + 4 or 5 on the side street. Currently I just take up 2 spots on the driveway + 1 on the sidestreet. Parents get the rest of the spots.

-mike

jimmyp1

that the B4 is going to be pushing 40k. Just put it next to what it would be competing with, and it would still be a bargain within the category....unfortunately.

Jim

jimmyp1

I'll still be first in line, even if I have to get a second mortgage or (heaven forbid) lease it. P.P.S. If you can stand the heat, I can fit at least 9 cars in my driveway/garage. Do I smell an event?

Jim

rsholland

the "hot" Legacy will be no more expensive than an Outback VDC. Wishful thinking? I hope not.

Bob

subearu

No friggin' way. They'll kick themselves in the [non-permissible content removed] if they do that.

$27-28k tops. It'll sell fine right about there.

-Brian

locke2c

They'll screw it up-- too many automatics or no manual tranny at all.

Surely you realize that Japanese market only B4 is a 260HP twin turbo 2.0L that (unsurprisingly) makes more low-end torque than the WRX's single turbo but slightly less peak power.

Carrying over the same power and trim level can't be done for $27k-- no way, no how. Low to mid 30s at best.

-Colin

jimmyp1

the perception of needing some distinction between models will push the price up. I've seen WRX's at 33k in the dealerships with just a few modifications. I think you MIGHT be able to get into the B4 at about 32k as a marketing ploy, but add anything in at all and it will push 40k, no problem. Colin, are you talking about the Japanese spec WRX, because it only has 227 peak hp in the US right?

Jim

locke2c

Good catch... I was referring to the Japanese market WRX, which makes 240-280HP depending on configuration.

subearu

...on the price of the 'hot' Legacy. We're not even sure how 'hot' it will be. Anyone know what the B4's go for overseas (in US$)?

After thinking about it a bit more, it probably will be in the $29-30k range. I'm basing this on the fact that the Impreza RS is MSRP at about $20k and the WRX is MSRP at $25k-ish. If we do that math on a Legacy GT Limited at $24.5k, then the 'hot' Legacy would be about $29-30k. $31k tops. I just can't see Subaru asking more than that for it. They'd be crazy to do so. Pricing them at $29-30k would have them selling lot hot cakes.

You really think people would be lined up to by a mid-size performance sedan at $40K? From Subaru?!?!?

-Brian

dsackman

"You really think people would be lined up to by a mid-size performance sedan at $40K? From Subaru?!?!?"

Volswagen did it very successfully by upping their pricing! They have a small car (Jetta) at a premium price. Why not Subaru? I do agree that Subaru is not quite up to the quality of the various German assembled marques, however, if Subaru can do something about their styling, they should be able to get the premium pricing.

Is it not any manufacturer's goal to get the most money for the least investment?

Daniel

cptplt

NZ has the 2.0 twin turbo Legacy B4 sedan and GTB wagon. They sell for about NZ$66K. The H6 OB they sell there is 69K and a WRX 53K.Not sure what that is in US$ but if they can drop the 2.0 T in a Legacy and sell it for less than an H6, I'm putting a deposit down with a dealer as soon as they come over here!

cptplt

NZ$66K is US$27K!

Now all I need to know is how many HP is 207Kw???

woodytx

Interesting fact here,

Rolls/Bentley apparently has a pretty bad problem with the CAFE standards, but not with the Gas-Guzzler tax. Apparently, there's a weight maximum for the G-G tax, so things like furniture trucks and school busses aren't taxed. Since the Rolls (and I assume Bentley) weigh more than 6,000 pounds, they are exempt from the G-G tax.

Think about that. MORE THAN SIX THOUSAND POUNDS! Three tons. Talk about a smooth ride!

This may be old info, but I got it from a P.J. O'Rourke article on driving some of the most expensive cars.

woodytx

To get a better feel of real world fuel economy, check out Consumer Reports. They give you all kind of numbers, including instantaneous mileage at 60 mph. (In which my Aura Integral got 50 mpg. But not with me at the wheel....)

They are definitely paranoid and biased towards the Volvo set, but if you read between the lines, they are one of the better sources for real information on the cars we drive.

Also, as I understand it, a taller gear may not necessarily improve your mileage. You engine's torque peak is where it runs most efficiently, at any throttle setting. To produce the most energy for the least gas, gear your motor so that your average speed in top gear is right around the torque peak. Smaller displacement cars (read: VTEC) have pretty strange torque curves, and may respond poorly to a taller gear.

Of course, if the posts are any guideline, we all drive faster than the speed limit, and may actually benefit from taller gearing....

hypov

If 165hp/5600 = 115Kw/5600
then I think 207Kw = 297hp
If the math is right... WOW!

hypov

GTB/B4 (5M) = 206Kw/6000 & (4EAT) = 191Kw/6000

paisan

The B4 is gonna be more expensive than the H6 IMHO. I'd shoot for a sticker of $32-$33K Anything more than that is gonna shoot themselves in the foot ala SVX. The Volkswagon sold because people felt they were the poor man's Audi. Whereas the Subaru is just a poor man's car! Let's hope for the best.

-mike

qbrozen

The lower RPMs you can run, the less gas you will be using. Its that simple. Of course, there is a point at which you can be running the engine TOO slow to even be practical. But, many engines don't hit their peak until at high RPMs (at which time they are consuming a good deal of fuel).

The efficiency you're talking about is true, but its not enough to offset the higher RPMs. In other words, at 5000 RPMs vs. 2500, you may not be using twice the gas, but you are using maybe 1.7 times as much. The efficiency has gone up, but its still sucking more fuel than at the lower RPMs.

rsholland

I think a "hot" Legacy can sell in the VDC neighborhood—perhaps a bit more, or perhaps a bit less. In NZ the B-4 is a bit less than their H-6 models, so that should give an indication how SOA may price it.

Bob

rsholland

I stopped by a local dealer today, and they had several new '02 Outbacks on the lot. In addition to the changes that have been noted here before, I noticed several other upgrades for '02. They are:

• The middle rear headrest is smaller, not unlike that of the new Impreza.

• The radio antenna is now in the rear quarter glass (rear window on sedans), like the Forester.

• There is indeed a lit ignition key this year.

• Both front cup holders are now in the console, next to the handbrake. The heated seat switches have been moved slightly, and the console has been redesigned to accommodate these changes. There is no longer a pop-out cupholder on the dash.

• All white Outbacks have the pearl white. I think(?) white is no linger available on the Legacy models. They are now offered a silver instead.

• Regatta Red on the Outbacks is georgous! With the gold cladding it just looks fantastic. It's my favorite color combo.

Bob

cptplt

I don't need dual sunroofs, Mac radio etc or even leather. Just put that 2.0 Turbo in it. VDC would be good too! If its in the 30K neighbourhood it will sell. I'm sure they will sell more of these than a H6 OB! Kust make sure they have a wagon and not just the sedan.
The NZ website says the AT has some sort of fingertip selection, is that some sort of Sube Tiptronic??

rsholland

Yep. Subaru offers this feature in Japan too. They've had it for several years now. Unfortunately it's still a 4-speed automatic, not a 5-speed unit. The home-market WRX automatic has this feature too.

Bob

cptplt

I've noticed a lot of people commenting on this about recent OBs. They have it on my 92 for sure and I think my 98 Legacy (lots of "lights" no longer work on my dash so I'm not absolutely sure), did they drop it for the last few years??? I'm sure it saved them all of twenty bucks or something!

rsholland

Yeah, a number of us have mentioned in the past that we would like to see that feature on USA-spec Subies. Maybe(?) we do have some influence after all.

Bob

woodytx

It's an Acura Integra, not some New Age thing.

Damned spell checker....

paisan

In a US marketed sports sedan you aren't gonna find non-leather, non-upgraded stereo, options. Its just the way the us large market expects these vehicles to be donned. SOA can't afford to offer more than one trim of the top version so you are gonna be stuck with it and stuck paying for it.

-mike

amishra

my cup holder! They've taken it away? Might have been pretty useless next to the radio, but it was way cool...

subearu

That dash cup holder is OK. Fits the slim sized bottles and mugs, but those jumbo sized bottles and mugs just don't work in that. I tend to use the console cup holder most of the time anyway.

Too bad they can't team up with Acura and make a TL AWD. A TL type B4 anyone?

-Brian

drew_

Don't they have to turn the engine around 90 degrees first before they can make it AWD ;-)


Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

paisan

Can't stand the tranversally mounted engines!

-mike

francophile

277.592 horsepower.

I'll take my B4 in dark blue or dark green, beige interior, thankyouverymuch :-)

Cheers,
-wdb

(Whose '00 Legacy GT will be fully paid off by the time the B4 arrives heeheehee!)

hypov

SoA ought to march to the beat of a different drum.
They should also offer their customers "Reverse Option".
i.e. Standard Equipment: Leather, Upgrade Stereo, Moon Roof, etc... Give the customer the option of saying "I'll take it without Leather, Moon Roof, etc..."

Patti - How's that for really tuning in to the customers?

paisan

Hypov, as much as you and I would like that, there is no way that SOA can afford that. That is the reason their packages are so all-inclusive is because they just crank em out, and then people buy them, with minor PIOs installed or DIOs installed. I don't see that happening not unless they increase their sales by a lot (like 3x-4x)

-mike

hypov

Mike,
Agree with you on the "so all-inclusive"; however, the way the Subaru is equipped and priced, especially the VDC, I think the "Reverse Option" approach could help with Sales (more attainable) thereby offseting cost, if any, without creating another tier of model line (more badging - can't imagine "Outback H6 VDC Limited").
The only reason I wouldn't be buying the H6 Outbacks is because it doesn't come without sun/moon roofs - One sale lost there (I'm sure I'm not the only one).
If we the consumer have the option to elect not to have certain high priced standard offered can help improve Sales.
i.e. minus Sun/Moon Roof = Lower Purchase Price, hence more Wallet Friendly.
I think it is easier for a consumer to remove things they don't need and watch the purchase price go down versus adding options and watch the price go up.
I think the idea can fly, if "manipulated" right.

ateixeira

We'll find out if Subaru has a memory. Let's see, offer the B4 equipped like a VDC and listen to the press whine about it incessantly, or offer only the basics like in the WRX and read gushing reviews and watch customers line up on wait lists?

The price will depend on the packaging. I say get the base GT and add the turbos and better seats, that's it. The GT costs less than the Outback Limited, so the B4 should cost less than the LL Bean (never mind the VDC).

Wow, we're close on CAFE. Keep in mind it's not just $11 for the car you buy, it's $11 for ALL cars Subaru sells. So missing it by 0.2mpg would mean the fine would be roughly 1.9 MILLION DOLLARS! Ouch. Bye bye profits. Told ya CAFE was serious business.

VW has gone after Mercedes. They were peeved that Mercedes launched the A class to attack the Golf, so they are counter-punching. The fact that they are german helps in the US, but not in Brazil, where they are still a "cheap" brand. For Subaru it's the opposite. Too bad the US market is so much bigger.

Bob: sounds like you had a close look. I liked the trick cup holder, but it sounds like an improvement anyway. The lit keyhole should appear on all models.

-juice

paisan

I think they should offer the H6 in all Legacy/Outbacks. But that's just my opinion.

-mike

tincup47

The cost is the same whether you add an option or delete it. If they offer vehicles without moonroofs, they have to inventory more parts. Right now they have one roof and headliner, offer the option of removing the roof they double the number of parts stocked. It's the same every time you build it different. For small volume automakers, they don't have the luxury of building them like GM or Ford. They have to outfit the cars the way that their marketing research tells will appeal to the widest customer base. They can't afford to please everyone.

ateixeira

Impreza platform: small block V8, optional S/C
Legacy platform: big block V8, V12 option
Forester platform: big block V8, low range

All with 5 speed automatics with manual shift control. Sound about right? ;-)

-juice

subearu

don't forget about his SVX. ;-)

a bare-bones GT-B4 would do for me. Anything less than $30k keeps me hopeful that we could swing for one!

-Brian

paisan

Except make em with H configed engines instead of Vs

Followd my uncle over the weekend listened to the dual exhaust note from the SVX, it's so sweet!

-mike