6 speed manuals are a waste for cars with the low-end torque of a Subaru. A 6 speed manual is nice in that Audi turbo because it makes its horsepower in a narrow 5 rpm band between 9,000 rpm and 9,005 rpm (yeah, I'm kidding, but not by much), but Subarus have enough grunt that 5 gears are plenty.
More appropriate, perhaps, would be the return of the dual-range manual to the United States. From talking to folks in Australia and the Netherlands, it is obvious that a) it's still available almost everywhere EXCEPT the United States, and b) it's available on both right-hand-drive and left-hand-drive Subarus (Australians drive on the opposite side of the road from the Dutch). It is especially astounding that their pseudo-SUV, the Forester, doesn't have the dual-range manual gearbox. If it'd had one, I would have probably bought the manual transmission Forester rather than the automatic.
And I want my real aluminum skidplate instead of that plastic junk! (Oh well... sigh).
Oh -- anybody who says a Forester is good off-road is smoking something. A Forester can barely handle poorly-maintained forest service roads. Taking it into real off-road areas means you'll be missing large chunks off your front bumper and your front tow hooks will be ground to a nub -- its approach angles suck. Not to mention possible damage to your oil pan because of having no real skid plate. The Forester does what I want it to do (go over those forest service roads to get to the trailheads), but I wouldn't expect anything more from it -- I'm already missing some chunks from my front bumper cover and have a gouge in one of my front tow hooks just from hitting a few washouts in the road.
Oh -- only 30% of Ford Expeditions are driven by men, according to somebody's survey?
*BULL*. I have *NEVER* seen one of those behemoths being driven by a man here in the Phoenix area -- they're invariably driven by bleach blonds wearing designer dresses, or by housewives with a dozen kids strapped into the back. Maybe the man's name is on the title. But he sure isn't driving this thing. Same thing with the Chevy Suburbans. It is very rare that I see a man driving a Suburban, and if I do, it's generally some kind of contractor who uses it as sort of a fancy pickup truck (there's usually ladders strapped atop the roof).
I'll point out two dangers with statistics (that I learned in a class on educational statistics as part of a M.Ed. program). The first danger is that what you're measuring doesn't measure what you think you're measuring. For example, a multiple-choice "writing test" is an oxymoron, lots of kids get good scores on such tests and can't write a coherent paragraph if Regis was offering them a million dollars to do it. The second danger is that you've chosen an inappropriate target population to measure -- e.g., measuring middle class suburban kids, then making sweeping generalizations to all kids based upon that limited sample. I think that Auto Pacific is committing fallacy #1 (the "statistics that don't measure what they say they're measuring" one, which might be true if the husband's name is on the title rather than the housewive's), and I suspect that Subaru's marketing department (all 3 people?) is committing fallacy #2 -- planning Subaru's future based upon what current Subaru owners think, rather than trying to grow the brand beyond a hardy bunch of tech-heads and Saab-withdrawal fanatics. In particular, too many of their decisions seem to be being made based on input from the tech-heads. Which is good, in itself -- Subaru needs those innovations in order to stand out from the competition. But tech-heads aren't going to tell Subaru how to reach larger markets, because larger markets don't interest the tech-heads.
6 speed manuals are a waste for cars with the low-end torque of a Subaru.
You should qualify that statement a bit-- it's a waste for a turbocharged Subaru. The naturally aspirated ones have a decently fat torque curve but could still use the closer gear ratios the 6spd offers.
I especially lust for one, since I've gone down the road of naturally aspirated modifications. (mild head porting, cams, intake, exhaust-- soon headers.) Mainly the 40.5% drop between 1st and 2nd is something I would like to improve, but the WRX STi six speed also offers a true decending ratio change, unlike the current US 5spd that has a low 5th gear-- no doubt for highway fuel economy.
By the way, the six speed STi is made to use a 3.90:1 ring gear, whereas the 2.5RS uses 4.11:1.
With the 3.90:1 axle ratio, the RPM in 6th gear is approximately the same as a 2.5RS in 5th. HMM!
Darlene, definitely forward this one on to your product planners. Bring the six speed here, attached to turbocharged four cylinders and the new 3.0L H6.
Juice, believe it or not, got two fireplaces in this little house! Don't use 'em much (not deep enough + poor efficiency). I just like chopping wood; haven't done so since I was a teenager. Good way for a desk jockey to invigorate his atrophied muscles.
Kate, I agree w/juice, in DC I see more female Forester drivers than male. Interesting.
WDB, thanks for the reminder to stay on topic.
Eric, re: <259</A>> could the plastic shroud reduce NVH (due to underbody aerodynamics)? It's definitely got a funky shape (or maybe I'm thinking of the tabs under the rear floor pan (in a wagon), forward of the bumper). I don't think it was intended to protect the engine from anything except perhaps dirt. As you said, it's no skidplate. Also, I don't think the shroud extends sufficiently rearward to protect the CV boots (now that would be useful!).
Colin, I think you mean Patti of SoA, not Darlene of QSubaru. They are both so helpful, so sometimes we get them confused!
on the WRX, would offer a relaxed highway cruising gear. From everything I've read, the WRX is more geared as a back-road blaster, rather than an interstate cruiser. On the H-6, a 6-speed would probably be frosting on the cake, rather than a necessary item. I'd still like to have it though.
Also, as a marketing tool, a 6-speed makes more sense than a 5-speed. All manufacturers are having a tough time selling 5-speeds these days, at least here in the States. Go to any dealer, and try to find a 5-speed in the vehicle you want. It can be done, but it may be difficult to find. 6-speeds have a special "aura" about them, and are much more desirable and easier to sell to a performance-oriented customer.
For the average customer, most are going to opt for automatics. It's the performance-oriented customer who wants a manual. A 6-speed for that kind of customer would be, IMHO, a much easier sell.
I do agree that a 6-speed on some vehicles seem superfluous, such as a Viper with an huge 8.0L engine.
That's a good point, Bob. Never thought about it as a marketing contrivance but it makes sense. Wonder if the was the reason for the 6-speed in the new (00?) Celica. As you said, I'm sure 6-sp adds to the cache of any given vehicle and might sway those on the fence about auto or stick.
There is a reason for the six speed in the new celica-- even with vvtl-i, or whatever toyota calls it, the car still produces a fairly narrow torque peak (too narrow, like 6500rpm-redline). If you want any hope of keeping in that peak, you can't do it as well with a 5spd.
Did any of you look at the gearbox link I provided? ;-)
Colin - If Subaru were to offer a 6-speed here in the States on the WRX, I would hope that the 6th gear would be an overdrive of some sort.
I've read several overseas reports on the new WRX, and I remember two reports (one from Japan, the other from the UK) specificly wished that the WRX had a 6th gear for relaxed highway use. I think this will be a bigger issue here in the USA, with our huge network of interstate highways -- much more so than overseas, where high-speed limited access highways are not as prevalent.
I do agree, that for the 2.5 engine - as it is currently tuned, a 6-speed may be overkill. It would still be fun though.
A 6-speed on the new H-6 would allow for sportier tuning of this engine. Also, I've driven two H-6 Outbacks, and they both seemed to have significantly more power up top, as opposed to down low. So, a 6-speed, even as it is currently tuned, would be, IMHO, not overkill.
As many of you already know, the only manuals Mercedes offers here in the States are 6-speeds. The new C-260 sedan has the 6-speed standard. I know Mercedes does not offer mass-market engines with "peaky" powerbands, so the 6-speed is, I think, really a marketing ploy. The C-260 could just as easily get by with a 5-speed manual, but I think that Mercedes thinks they can "sell" 6-speeds, whereas they have had trouble selling 5-speeds here in North America.
My impression is that the Celica, and certainly the Honda S-2000, "need" 6-speed trannys, because of their narrow powerbands. On Subarus, a 6-speed would make an already great vehicle, even greater.
Colin - yes I did look at your link. Thanks for providing it. As you say, to provide a 6-speed overdrive, some gear ratios (or final drive ratio) would need to be revised.
Mercedes C-240, not C-260 - even though it has a 2.6L engine :~/
Anyway... I think 6-speeds are considered somewhat "special," and more marketable. whereas 5-speeds are, for many folks, considered rather "ordinary," and less desirable.
Anyway, for those wondering... the reason less than 1:1 is considered overdrive is because normally a gearbox serves to increase the numerical gear ratio, which decreases work done but increases the torque avaialable to do the work. Overdrive has fewer teeth on the input shaft than output, which of course decreases the numerical gear ratio and increases work.
Oversimplified-- gear ratio * axle ratio (ring & pinion) * tire radius = work done.
If a 6-speed, or a dual-range tranny is "packaged" and "marketed" correctly... it will sell.
I agree, the Forester needs better approach and departure angles, as well as a dual range tranny, as well as a few other goodies to make it a good off-roader. That's where the "packaging" (and engineering) comes into play. That, combined with savvy marketing will do the trick.
In the not-too-distant past when 4-speed trans were standard, 5-speeds were considered special/sporty. Of course, as was already pointed out, if you go back far enough, both "4-on-the-floor" and "3-on-the-tree" were also cutting edge for their time. (What percent of the population even knows what 3-on-the-tree is? Much less has driven one?).
In the gear dept, cars and bikes have much in common. Remember when your typical bike was a 10-speed? Now they routinely have 21-speeds while the top of the line have 24 speeds (I haven't checked lately...has anybody come out with a 27-speed yet?).
I think that in both cars and bikes, after a point, the additional gears are purely a marketing gimmick (I doubt there are very many bikers who use even half of their available gears). I suspect that if I had a 6-speed Forester, I'd skip 5th most of the time and use 6th to cruise down the hwy.
You're right. Marketing plays a huge role here, but it also plays a major role in everything we buy.
I'd be surprised if you would ever see a 6-speed Forester, unless it were a ultra-high-performance model. I don't think you'll ever see a mass-market 6-speed. There just isn't an audience (market) for it.
If you look at all the vehicles with 6-speed transmissions, one thing is absolutely clear, there all ultra-high-performance-oriented and/or image vehicles: motorcycles (from crotch-rockets to tourers), S-2000, Miata, Celica, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, etc.
MB tends to build one component for use in all of their vehicles. For example, the 5 speed Touchshift tranny is used across the MB lineup, from the C240 auto to the S600. There are some minor differences to accomodate the different torque levels of the different engines, of course. This is why the 6 speed is in the C240 and the SLK320. Also, keep in mind that this car was designed for cruising on the autobahn all day at 200 km/hr, so the 6th gear is appreciated.
The 6 speed manual was designed after criticism of the 5 speed manual. MB trannies have never been known for their preciseness and smoothness. The 6 speed greatly improves on this. It is still not quite up to the level of a BMW manual tranny though.
But forget the 6 speed manual. MB is coming out with a sequential 6 speed tranny for their new C230 Kompressor coupe next year. I've been trying to find the picture that I saw all morning but haven't been able to. In any case, it's great! Looks exactly like the stick shift and the nice thing is that it works exactly like the WRC cars. Pull towards you to go to the next gear, and push away from you to go to the previous (lower) gear. I've been wanting this arrangement for a long time but Acura's Sportshift and VW's Tiptronic have been the opposite, because the engineers feel that people may be confused with the other arrangement.
Today's bicycles can be equipped with 10 cog cassettes. With a "triple crank" this equates to 30 "speeds"! I'm still somewhat old fashioned as my road bike has only 27!
Thanks for the clarification regarding MB transmissions. Even so, I still can't help but think that MB thinks that a 6-speed manual is more marketable than a 5-speed manual. I look forward to seeing that new 6-speed that you've mentioned.
And yes, there is a much stronger argument to be made for 6-speeds, in both in manual and automatic format in Europe due to the much higher normal cruising speeds over there.
You know you're probably right about the marketable issue. After all, doesn't it sound better to say that the company has come up with a much better feeling/more precise all-new 6 speed manual gearbox, rather than simply improving on the 5 speed? :-)
I look forward to that 6 speed sequential gearshift too. Let's just hope that it makes it to North America! We will most likely see it in the regular non-coupe C-class as well.
Bob- I'm telling you....20 some years ago, you could've said the exact same thing about 5-speeds being only on high-performance-oriented cars like 280Zs, Porsches and Corvettes.
Don- So how many of those 27 gears do you actually use? The highest and lowest obviously but what how many of the other 25 ever see action?
You are gonna see more 5 speed automatics and manu-matics than all out development and marketing of manual 6 speeds. As most people have said, manuals really only appeal to enthusiasts, not the mass market.
I still doubt we will see a dual range in the forester anytime soon in the US. Let's take a poll, of all the forester owners on here, who would honestly use their low range transfer case and who wouldn't?
(In my 4 years of owning a Rodeo and Trooper, I've put it in 4-low 2x out of 100s of times I've used 4wd Hi)
I probably have use 21 gears. Unless I'm going downhill, I usually stay out of the upper range. I can travel in the high 30 mph range with this choice. When encountering hills, I use the lower range extensively. If I were younger with "stronger" knees, I would have stayed with a "double" rather than a "triple." By the way, the Outback is terrific for carrying bikes. I can get two inside with front wheels in place along with other gear.
I thought you might like it :-) Looks like lots of fun!
Regarding the dual range, if it doesn't lock the centre differential (like Mike's Trooper or Rodeo does), one will be able to use it anytime that more torque is desired. Good idea, IMHO, especially for towing. I do wonder about the added cost though. How about Subaru at least making it optional, like the Audi Allroad?
As far as I know, the dual range is just a lower (and not by much) final drive ratio. There are no locking differentials.
The low range on Subarus are not a "true" low range, in that the gear reduction is very small. It's not at all like a traditional deep low range that you would get from most other 4x4s. The fact that it is a "marginal low" allows for other less off-road activities, such as towing, etc.
Graham & Gus, am I correct here? You guys have dual-range setups, I believe. How and where do you find the low range most useful?
It has never been offered on automatics, to the best of my knowledge.
As to costs? Subaru has been offering this feature for years on even their least expensive models.
It's only for the 6 speed manual in the Allroad. That's weird...I didn't realise that the US wouldn't get the low range. The last I heard, it was going to be available in Canada (unless something has changed recently), so I assumed that the US would get it too.
Could it be that the low range requires more space, and since an Automatic takes up more space than a manual there isn't enough room?
Canada gets more cool stuff than the US, the XT6 there had a manually adjustable height control for the ride control when we just got an automatically adjusting model here.
Hmmmm, off the top of my head, I *think* I see more men than women driving Foresters in Austin (and, I think, slightly more women than men in Outbacks). but I haven't really been paying much attention to Subaru-driving gender by model. Probably will be noticing now, whether I consciously want to or not. On the more behemoth side, I think I see a close-to-equal male/female split in Suburban drivers (perhaps a slight edge toward female), which women in Texas adopted as station-wagon substitutes long before the SUV craze really went ballistic. On a totally different topic, in that picture of the otherwise nifty Mercedes shifter, did anyone else have a little trouble telling the difference between the "A" and the "R" lettering on the shifter knob? At first glance, I thought it had two "R"s on it (momentarily thought, 'well I know lower right has to be reverse, what the heck is the other R for; does the German word for "low-gear" start with an "R" ... ?'). A bit of less-than-great typography to my eyes.
Automatic trannys really don't need a low range unless you're doing really serious off-roading (which no Subaru is capable of doing anyhow). They already have a torque converter which allows the car to creep along quite slowly when trying to pull a boat out of the water etc., which is where the low range in Subes is used by the Aussies in particular.
That's the main reason I bought an automatic -- I did not want to burn my clutch if I wanted to tow a small pop-top trailer. Crawling along going up a steep uphill or pulling a trailer up a hill isn't very good for torque converters either (it generates a lot of heat), but at least short bursts of heat can be easily dissipated by the AT oil cooler, whereas smoked clutch lining stays smoked :-(. But if a dual range was available here in the U.S., I would probably have bought that instead.
Please forgive my preamble (Holden plug) I will get to the Subaru later in the post.
I am the proud owner of a Holden Commodore VL Sedan, fitted with a Nissan-Holden 3.0 litre in-line 6 cyl engine. The vehicle is 14 years old and has turned over 306,500 odd kilometres (or 190,450 miles for my U.S.A. friends), the only major repairs have been 1 x waterpump - due to a leaking gland, 1 x crank angle sensor (water got in through a cracked boot) and an exchange head which cracked at 273,585 kms (169,997 miles), the vehicle will still reach 190+ kph (120mph) and lively at it too. The motor is absolutely silent except for the injectors clicking away and the fan when it is engaged. I can stand a 50cent coin vertical on the rocker cover at idle speed and rev it out too 5,000rpm and the coin will remain vertical on the rocker cover, and it has done this from brand new in October 1986.
I have just completed a round trip of 10,500 kms (6,525 miles) cruising at 130kph (80mph)on the open/suburban roads for an average return of 10l/100km (28mpg), not too shabby for a car of it's age and mileage. Mind you, the boot was full of suitcases and golf clubs, the back seat was loaded with 50 litres of Port Wine and 20 bottles of mixed wines + odds and ends and my toolbox of 60kgs (130lbs)on the floor behind the drivers seat.
NOW, I have recently retired and I am in the market for a new car, my choice is the Subaru Outback 2.5, I have found a replacement vehicle here in Australia to compete with my "Old Lady", with the exception of the OutBack. I know it doesn't have the zip-zip of the Commodore, but it has driveability - comfort - safety & RELIABILITY, which at my age is now more important to me than zip-zip, (but let me at a WRX please, just once.). The Subaru range of vehicles are far superior in finish - handling - ride etc than our local products (I have owned Fords x 2 and GMH x 3 over the years), and I must say that I have now been swayed over to the Subaru's. From what I have researched here on the web, I will be in good company with the "Members of the Outback Club" (Lee Kernigan Aust.country & western singer).
are nice to have, both as a manual and automatic. I think of it (dual range) as additional insurance for those few tough situations we all encounter at some point.
Crawling along going up a steep uphill or pulling a trailer up a hill isn't very good for torque converters either (it generates a lot of heat), but at least short bursts of heat can be easily dissipated by the AT oil cooler
I agree 100%. If your trailer is within the rated towing capacity of the vehicle, or at least reasonably near it, then you'll be fine with the auto. I would like to say you'd be fine with the 5spd too but in my 2 years of active Subaru-dom all over the web I'm afraid I have seen far too many clutch complaints (mostly chattering after a long shutdown, like overnight). I don't know why Subaru can't or won't install a properly stiff pressure plate...
Anyway, I've been in automatics that were overtaxed and even after the ATF is changed they won't shift right. With the 5spd if the clutch smokes, put in a real clutch (like ACT or Exedy) and the problem with go away for good, at a reasonable cost.
Just caught up on about 240 posts. Wow, you folks write a lot!
Anyway, being the owner of an '00 OB I wanted to chime in my opinion.
I did look at a GT, and while I liked it, I didn't think the handling characteristics were much better than the Outback's.
While some of you may dislike the two-tone styling, the plastic sides actually function very well. It functions very well for reducing scratches and dents on my OB (knock on wood) for over 1 year I've owned it now, and I take my OB on gravel and dirt roads to the tune of 2-3 times a week. I wouldn't dare with a GT.
The GT may actually represent a better value to some of you, but there are certainly more than just appearance to the OB. For example, I really like the larger side mirrors, the AWP, the skidplates (even if they are plastic, they still keep out dirt).
Lastly, I like the appearance of the OB over the GT. You don't all have to agree, that's why Subaru makes different versions of the Legacy.
What it comes down to is that people have different tastes. Some are no doubt drawn in by marketting, but you shouldn't automatically conclude that someone chose an OB over a GT because of ignorance.
Oh and one other thing ... it's not like the OB and GT are magnitudes of difference in price. The base OB actually comes out cheaper (minus some luxury amenities), but some of us don't really care for the (what I deem luxury) amenities.
Anyone else getting really excited about the new Impreza? I am just realized that Subaru is going to be offering 165 hp in a base model car, which as far as I can tell is more than any car in its class!
AWD + 165 hp for the price of a Civic? While the WRX will no doubt be the attention stealer, the base Impreza might just represent the deal of the year. I'm certainly going to look at them once they're out.
I belive in 2000->present, the mirrors are the same size and they both have the plastic undercladding. I would like the GT better if it had heated seat and mirror options though.
I have no idea whether the OB mirrors are larger, but the GT mirrors are pretty big - in fact they get mentioned occasionally in road tests as being so, usually in conjunction with the wind noise they generate.
As for OB, GT & IQ: I don't think that has the tiniest bit to do with it. Cars in America are purchased at least in part for image reasons. Subaru buyers in general are in an image class outside the norm, and from the sales figures it is pretty obvious that the OB is the most popular by far of the Subaru line. That means, in my humble opinion, that we're all smarter than the average car buyer, however the GT folk are in the minority - and as underdogs get sniping rights over the OB owners .
It also means, for this Subaru owner at least, that not only do I doubt that Subaru will ever become as successful as, say, Honda at selling to a broader US market, but also that I am quite happy that they are not! Subarus are designed by people who do stuff like insisting on horizontally opposed motors. They are different because of that; they have character because of that. I am virtually certain that I would have no interest in any car they made that had the broad appeal of a Honda Accord here in the US. They don't make cars like that; this Subaru owner hopes they never do.
That's a great discussion of the "why" for all the cogs on today's bicycles! As we get older, the more cogs and chainrings available, the easier it is to maintain a steady cadence.
So, not only do we have Peugeot 505s and turbo ownership in common, we also have a common interest in bicycling. You can add these similarities to the profile of Subaru owners!
It took me the longest time to figure out the differences between the 3rd generation Outback and GT (first year MY00 for NA, MY99 for JDM/Aus/NZ), I did notice the OB mirrors are larger than the GT's. (Of course the fogs are different too.) For another piece of trivia, here's an ASCII rendition of the grill:
a .--------------. b / --- (logo) --- \ Legacy Brigton and L c `----------------'
a .--------------. b / --- (logo) --- \ Legacy GT c `----------------'
a .--------------. b /---- (logo) ----\ Outback c `----------------'
Legacy L: Oval ring circumscribing the grill is black; horizontal line (b) is "chrome".
Legacy GT: Oval ring is chrome.
Outback: Same as GT but horizontal line is contiguous with oval ring (no break).
From above, here's the horizontal line; see the "arrows" v and ^ v v / --- (logo) --- \ Legacy GT /---- (logo) ----\ Outback ^ ^
(3G Brighton was for a single year, MY00; it was dropped in MY01.)
Bit, you may have me on OCD regarding height of your GT and moonroof NVH, but my "observables" OCD is greater than thou.
Aeronautical trivia: "Low observables" relates to an aircraft's radar reflection, a.k.a. stealth technology on the F-117A, B-2, and F-22 Raptor (the most recent stealth aircraft acknowledged by the military). Technically the SR-71 has low observables (wing fillet and nose chine) though not to the extent of those above. I recall reading that even the B-1 is stealthy; the fillet between fuselage and wing reduces reflections and its four engines reflect 1/100 that of the B-52's (ugh) eight engines (not surprising given those bombers are separated by 30 years). See photos at Federation of American Scientitists. Interesting or frightening statement from FAS, depending on your perspective:
The limiting factor of the B-52’s service life is the economic limit of the aircraft's upper wing surface, calculated to be approximately 32,500 to 37,500 flight hours. Based on the projected economic service life and forecast mishap rates, the Air Force will be unable to maintain the requirement of 62 aircraft by 2044, after 84 years in service.
Ok, back to Subes. Got any more Subaru "observables" trivia questions for me?
Just wanted to point out that one of my parents reasons for NOT looking at the Outback besides the un-needed extra ride clearance, larger profile tires, IMO Ugly rims (Silver + Gold = Blah!), and the extra $1k+, is that its LONGER than the GT and that was a factor in putting this thing into our garage and the GT fits much better. Also, the Outback adds weight and another 1 second in the 0-60 time, which is alot of straign on the already straigned 9+ second 0-60 times of the 2.5l engine with Automatic (Still slow w/ Manual). Of course, people figure out how to park their 220+ inch SUV's somehow, so another couple inches dont hurt that much... The weight sure does though!
Ok, now on to the fun stuff!
"Anyone else getting really excited about the new Impreza? I am just realized that Subaru is going to be offering 165 hp in a base model car, which as far as I can tell is more than any car in its class! AWD + 165 hp for the price of a Civic? While the WRX will no doubt be the attention stealer, the base Impreza might just represent the deal of the year. I'm certainly going to look at them once they're out. -- ash"
I am SOOOOOOOO freakin exited that I cant even look at other cars seriously til the 2002's come out! And I dont mean the WRX!!! Im just hoping that its not too much for the base models ($18k is too much!) and somewhere around $16-17k for a base at most so I can get one! I really dont want to get a Focus ZX3, but thats my only alternative that I will even remotely consider (I can get one cheap with everything I want, and those cars handle oh so well)...
Where did you get your information? The Subaru site shows the GT/OB length is the same for both sedans (184.4) and wagons (187.4"). As for weight, the limited weighs 60lbs more (or the equivalent of a 9 yr old passenger) while the base OB is 25lbs lighter. Not sure about the 1 second 0-60 thing but its importance ranks up there with the 1" difference in ground clearance.
Comments
More appropriate, perhaps, would be the return of the dual-range manual to the United States. From talking to folks in Australia and the Netherlands, it is obvious that a) it's still available almost everywhere EXCEPT the United States, and b) it's available on both right-hand-drive and left-hand-drive Subarus (Australians drive on the opposite side of the road from the Dutch). It is especially astounding that their pseudo-SUV, the Forester, doesn't have the dual-range manual gearbox. If it'd had one, I would have probably bought the manual transmission Forester rather than the automatic.
And I want my real aluminum skidplate instead of that plastic junk! (Oh well... sigh).
Oh -- anybody who says a Forester is good off-road is smoking something. A Forester can barely handle poorly-maintained forest service roads. Taking it into real off-road areas means you'll be missing large chunks off your front bumper and your front tow hooks will be ground to a nub -- its approach angles suck. Not to mention possible damage to your oil pan because of having no real skid plate. The Forester does what I want it to do (go over those forest service roads to get to the trailheads), but I wouldn't expect anything more from it -- I'm already missing some chunks from my front bumper cover and have a gouge in one of my front tow hooks just from hitting a few washouts in the road.
-E
*BULL*. I have *NEVER* seen one of those behemoths being driven by a man here in the Phoenix area -- they're invariably driven by bleach blonds wearing designer dresses, or by housewives with a dozen kids strapped into the back. Maybe the man's name is on the title. But he sure isn't driving this thing. Same thing with the Chevy Suburbans. It is very rare that I see a man driving a Suburban, and if I do, it's generally some kind of contractor who uses it as sort of a fancy pickup truck (there's usually ladders strapped atop the roof).
I'll point out two dangers with statistics (that I learned in a class on educational statistics as part of a M.Ed. program). The first danger is that what you're measuring doesn't measure what you think you're measuring. For example, a multiple-choice "writing test" is an oxymoron, lots of kids get good scores on such tests and can't write a coherent paragraph if Regis was offering them a million dollars to do it. The second danger is that you've chosen an inappropriate target population to measure -- e.g., measuring middle class suburban kids, then making sweeping generalizations to all kids based upon that limited sample. I think that Auto Pacific is committing fallacy #1 (the "statistics that don't measure what they say they're measuring" one, which might be true if the husband's name is on the title rather than the housewive's), and I suspect that Subaru's marketing department (all 3 people?) is committing fallacy #2 -- planning Subaru's future based upon what current Subaru owners think, rather than trying to grow the brand beyond a hardy bunch of tech-heads and Saab-withdrawal fanatics. In particular, too many of their decisions seem to be being made based on input from the tech-heads. Which is good, in itself -- Subaru needs those innovations in order to stand out from the competition. But tech-heads aren't going to tell Subaru how to reach larger markets, because larger markets don't interest the tech-heads.
-E
low-end torque of a Subaru.
You should qualify that statement a bit-- it's a waste for a turbocharged Subaru. The naturally aspirated ones have a decently fat torque curve but could still use the closer gear ratios the 6spd offers.
I especially lust for one, since I've gone down the road of naturally aspirated modifications. (mild head porting, cams, intake, exhaust-- soon headers.) Mainly the 40.5% drop between 1st and 2nd is something I would like to improve, but the WRX STi six speed also offers a true decending ratio change, unlike the current US 5spd that has a low 5th gear-- no doubt for highway fuel economy.
I've compiled a brief list of modern Impreza transmissions, comparing the new Japanese domestic models to the 99-01 2.5RS 5spd gearbox.
-Colin
With the 3.90:1 axle ratio, the RPM in 6th gear is approximately the same as a 2.5RS in 5th. HMM!
Darlene, definitely forward this one on to your product planners. Bring the six speed here, attached to turbocharged four cylinders and the new 3.0L H6.
-Colin
Kate, I agree w/juice, in DC I see more female Forester drivers than male. Interesting.
WDB, thanks for the reminder to stay on topic.
Eric, re: <259</A>> could the plastic shroud reduce NVH (due to underbody aerodynamics)? It's definitely got a funky shape (or maybe I'm thinking of the tabs under the rear floor pan (in a wagon), forward of the bumper). I don't think it was intended to protect the engine from anything except perhaps dirt. As you said, it's no skidplate. Also, I don't think the shroud extends sufficiently rearward to protect the CV boots (now that would be useful!).
Colin, I think you mean Patti of SoA, not Darlene of QSubaru.
..Mike
..Mike
Thanks in advance.
- Ed
Also, as a marketing tool, a 6-speed makes more sense than a 5-speed. All manufacturers are having a tough time selling 5-speeds these days, at least here in the States. Go to any dealer, and try to find a 5-speed in the vehicle you want. It can be done, but it may be difficult to find. 6-speeds have a special "aura" about them, and are much more desirable and easier to sell to a performance-oriented customer.
For the average customer, most are going to opt for automatics. It's the performance-oriented customer who wants a manual. A 6-speed for that kind of customer would be, IMHO, a much easier sell.
I do agree that a 6-speed on some vehicles seem superfluous, such as a Viper with an huge 8.0L engine.
Bob
..Mike
..Mike
Did any of you look at the gearbox link I provided? ;-)
-Colin
I've read several overseas reports on the new WRX, and I remember two reports (one from Japan, the other from the UK) specificly wished that the WRX had a 6th gear for relaxed highway use. I think this will be a bigger issue here in the USA, with our huge network of interstate highways -- much more so than overseas, where high-speed limited access highways are not as prevalent.
I do agree, that for the 2.5 engine - as it is currently tuned, a 6-speed may be overkill. It would still be fun though.
A 6-speed on the new H-6 would allow for sportier tuning of this engine. Also, I've driven two H-6 Outbacks, and they both seemed to have significantly more power up top, as opposed to down low. So, a 6-speed, even as it is currently tuned, would be, IMHO, not overkill.
Bob
My impression is that the Celica, and certainly the Honda S-2000, "need" 6-speed trannys, because of their narrow powerbands. On Subarus, a 6-speed would make an already great vehicle, even greater.
Colin - yes I did look at your link. Thanks for providing it. As you say, to provide a 6-speed overdrive, some gear ratios (or final drive ratio) would need to be revised.
Bob
Anyway... I think 6-speeds are considered somewhat "special," and more marketable. whereas 5-speeds are, for many folks, considered rather "ordinary," and less desirable.
Bob
The STi six speed is only 15.8% overdriven though, versus the RS 5spd's 22%.
-Colin
Anyway, for those wondering... the reason less than 1:1 is considered overdrive is because normally a gearbox serves to increase the numerical gear ratio, which decreases work done but increases the torque avaialable to do the work. Overdrive has fewer teeth on the input shaft than output, which of course decreases the numerical gear ratio and increases work.
Oversimplified-- gear ratio * axle ratio (ring & pinion) * tire radius = work done.
-Colin
If a 6-speed, or a dual-range tranny is "packaged" and "marketed" correctly... it will sell.
I agree, the Forester needs better approach and departure angles, as well as a dual range tranny, as well as a few other goodies to make it a good off-roader. That's where the "packaging" (and engineering) comes into play. That, combined with savvy marketing will do the trick.
Bob
Bob
In the gear dept, cars and bikes have much in common. Remember when your typical bike was a 10-speed? Now they routinely have 21-speeds while the top of the line have 24 speeds (I haven't checked lately...has anybody come out with a 27-speed yet?).
I think that in both cars and bikes, after a point, the additional gears are purely a marketing gimmick (I doubt there are very many bikers who use even half of their available gears). I suspect that if I had a 6-speed Forester, I'd skip 5th most of the time and use 6th to cruise down the hwy.
-Frank P.
I'd be surprised if you would ever see a 6-speed Forester, unless it were a ultra-high-performance model. I don't think you'll ever see a mass-market 6-speed. There just isn't an audience (market) for it.
If you look at all the vehicles with 6-speed transmissions, one thing is absolutely clear, there all ultra-high-performance-oriented and/or image vehicles: motorcycles (from crotch-rockets to tourers), S-2000, Miata, Celica, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, etc.
Bob
The 6 speed manual was designed after criticism of the 5 speed manual. MB trannies have never been known for their preciseness and smoothness. The 6 speed greatly improves on this. It is still not quite up to the level of a BMW manual tranny though.
But forget the 6 speed manual. MB is coming out with a sequential 6 speed tranny for their new C230 Kompressor coupe next year. I've been trying to find the picture that I saw all morning but haven't been able to. In any case, it's great! Looks exactly like the stick shift and the nice thing is that it works exactly like the WRC cars. Pull towards you to go to the next gear, and push away from you to go to the previous (lower) gear. I've been wanting this arrangement for a long time but Acura's Sportshift and VW's Tiptronic have been the opposite, because the engineers feel that people may be confused with the other arrangement.
Drew/aling
Edmunds.com Townhall host
Today's bicycles can be equipped with 10 cog cassettes. With a "triple crank" this equates to 30 "speeds"! I'm still somewhat old fashioned as my road bike has only 27!
Don
And yes, there is a much stronger argument to be made for 6-speeds, in both in manual and automatic format in Europe due to the much higher normal cruising speeds over there.
Bob
I look forward to that 6 speed sequential gearshift too. Let's just hope that it makes it to North America! We will most likely see it in the regular non-coupe C-class as well.
Drew/aling
Edmunds.com Townhall host
Don- So how many of those 27 gears do you actually use? The highest and lowest obviously but what how many of the other 25 ever see action?
-Frank P.
I still doubt we will see a dual range in the forester anytime soon in the US. Let's take a poll, of all the forester owners on here, who would honestly use their low range transfer case and who wouldn't?
(In my 4 years of owning a Rodeo and Trooper, I've put it in 4-low 2x out of 100s of times I've used 4wd Hi)
-mike
Bob
Bob
Regarding the dual range, if it doesn't lock the centre differential (like Mike's Trooper or Rodeo does), one will be able to use it anytime that more torque is desired. Good idea, IMHO, especially for towing. I do wonder about the added cost though. How about Subaru at least making it optional, like the Audi Allroad?
Since my ML has three open differentials, low range can be used at any time up to about 50mph/80kph. At that speed, revs are at 5000 rpms, even with the 5 speed auto tranny. Check this out:
http://4x4abc.com/ML320/tow.html
http://4x4abc.com/ML320/Tow_lowrange.html
http://4x4abc.com/ML320/tow_temp.html
Drew/aling
Edmunds.com Townhall host
-mike
The low range on Subarus are not a "true" low range, in that the gear reduction is very small. It's not at all like a traditional deep low range that you would get from most other 4x4s. The fact that it is a "marginal low" allows for other less off-road activities, such as towing, etc.
Graham & Gus, am I correct here? You guys have dual-range setups, I believe. How and where do you find the low range most useful?
It has never been offered on automatics, to the best of my knowledge.
As to costs? Subaru has been offering this feature for years on even their least expensive models.
Bob
Bob
Drew/aling
Edmunds.com Townhall host
Canada gets more cool stuff than the US, the XT6 there had a manually adjustable height control for the ride control when we just got an automatically adjusting model here.
-mike
On a totally different topic, in that picture of the otherwise nifty Mercedes shifter, did anyone else have a little trouble telling the difference between the "A" and the "R" lettering on the shifter knob? At first glance, I thought it had two "R"s on it (momentarily thought, 'well I know lower right has to be reverse, what the heck is the other R for; does the German word for "low-gear" start with an "R" ... ?'). A bit of less-than-great typography to my eyes.
That's the main reason I bought an automatic -- I did not want to burn my clutch if I wanted to tow a small pop-top trailer. Crawling along going up a steep uphill or pulling a trailer up a hill isn't very good for torque converters either (it generates a lot of heat), but at least short bursts of heat can be easily dissipated by the AT oil cooler, whereas smoked clutch lining stays smoked :-(. But if a dual range was available here in the U.S., I would probably have bought that instead.
-E
I am the proud owner of a Holden Commodore VL Sedan, fitted with a Nissan-Holden 3.0 litre in-line 6 cyl engine.
The vehicle is 14 years old and has turned over 306,500 odd kilometres (or 190,450 miles for my U.S.A. friends), the only major repairs have been 1 x waterpump - due to a leaking gland, 1 x crank angle sensor (water got in through a cracked boot) and an exchange head which cracked at 273,585 kms (169,997 miles), the vehicle will still reach 190+ kph (120mph) and lively at it too.
The motor is absolutely silent except for the injectors clicking away and the fan when it is engaged. I can stand a 50cent coin vertical on the rocker cover at idle speed and rev it out too 5,000rpm and the coin will remain vertical on the rocker cover, and it has done this from brand new in October 1986.
I have just completed a round trip of 10,500 kms (6,525 miles) cruising at 130kph (80mph)on the open/suburban roads for an average return of 10l/100km (28mpg), not too shabby for a car of it's age and mileage. Mind you, the boot was full of suitcases and golf clubs, the back seat was loaded with 50 litres of Port Wine and 20 bottles of mixed wines + odds and ends and my toolbox of 60kgs (130lbs)on the floor behind the drivers seat.
NOW, I have recently retired and I am in the market for a new car, my choice is the Subaru Outback 2.5, I have found a replacement vehicle here in Australia to compete with my "Old Lady", with the exception of the OutBack.
I know it doesn't have the zip-zip of the Commodore, but it has driveability - comfort - safety & RELIABILITY, which at my age is now more important to me than zip-zip, (but let me at a WRX please, just once.).
The Subaru range of vehicles are far superior in finish - handling - ride etc than our local products (I have owned Fords x 2 and GMH x 3 over the years), and I must say that I have now been swayed over to the Subaru's. From what I have researched here on the web, I will be in good company with the "Members of the Outback Club" (Lee Kernigan Aust.country & western singer).
Thankyou for your time,
Peter
Bob
Bob
I agree 100%. If your trailer is within the rated towing capacity of the vehicle, or at least reasonably near it, then you'll be fine with the auto. I would like to say you'd be fine with the 5spd too but in my 2 years of active Subaru-dom all over the web I'm afraid I have seen far too many clutch complaints (mostly chattering after a long shutdown, like overnight). I don't know why Subaru can't or won't install a properly stiff pressure plate...
Anyway, I've been in automatics that were overtaxed and even after the ATF is changed they won't shift right. With the 5spd if the clutch smokes, put in a real clutch (like ACT or Exedy) and the problem with go away for good, at a reasonable cost.
-Colin
Anyway, being the owner of an '00 OB I wanted to chime in my opinion.
I did look at a GT, and while I liked it, I didn't think the handling characteristics were much better than the Outback's.
While some of you may dislike the two-tone styling, the plastic sides actually function very well. It functions very well for reducing scratches and dents on my OB (knock on wood) for over 1 year I've owned it now, and I take my OB on gravel and dirt roads to the tune of 2-3 times a week. I wouldn't dare with a GT.
The GT may actually represent a better value to some of you, but there are certainly more than just appearance to the OB. For example, I really like the larger side mirrors, the AWP, the skidplates (even if they are plastic, they still keep out dirt).
Lastly, I like the appearance of the OB over the GT. You don't all have to agree, that's why Subaru makes different versions of the Legacy.
What it comes down to is that people have different tastes. Some are no doubt drawn in by marketting, but you shouldn't automatically conclude that someone chose an OB over a GT because of ignorance.
-- ash
They both represent good value.
-- ash
Anyone else getting really excited about the new Impreza? I am just realized that Subaru is going to be offering 165 hp in a base model car, which as far as I can tell is more than any car in its class!
AWD + 165 hp for the price of a Civic? While the WRX will no doubt be the attention stealer, the base Impreza might just represent the deal of the year. I'm certainly going to look at them once they're out.
-- ash
-mike
-- ash
As for OB, GT & IQ: I don't think that has the tiniest bit to do with it. Cars in America are purchased at least in part for image reasons. Subaru buyers in general are in an image class outside the norm, and from the sales figures it is pretty obvious that the OB is the most popular by far of the Subaru line. That means, in my humble opinion, that we're all smarter than the average car buyer, however the GT folk are in the minority - and as underdogs get sniping rights over the OB owners .
It also means, for this Subaru owner at least, that not only do I doubt that Subaru will ever become as successful as, say, Honda at selling to a broader US market, but also that I am quite happy that they are not! Subarus are designed by people who do stuff like insisting on horizontally opposed motors. They are different because of that; they have character because of that. I am virtually certain that I would have no interest in any car they made that had the broad appeal of a Honda Accord here in the US. They don't make cars like that; this Subaru owner hopes they never do.
Cheers,
-wdb
So, not only do we have Peugeot 505s and turbo ownership in common, we also have a common interest in bicycling. You can add these similarities to the profile of Subaru owners!
Don
a .--------------.
b / --- (logo) --- \ Legacy Brigton and L
c `----------------'
a .--------------.
b / --- (logo) --- \ Legacy GT
c `----------------'
a .--------------.
b /---- (logo) ----\ Outback
c `----------------'
Legacy L: Oval ring circumscribing the grill is black; horizontal line (b) is "chrome".
Legacy GT: Oval ring is chrome.
Outback: Same as GT but horizontal line is contiguous with oval ring (no break).
From above, here's the horizontal line; see the "arrows" v and ^
v v
/ --- (logo) --- \ Legacy GT
/---- (logo) ----\ Outback
^ ^
(3G Brighton was for a single year, MY00; it was dropped in MY01.)
Bit, you may have me on OCD regarding height of your GT and moonroof NVH, but my "observables" OCD is greater than thou.
Aeronautical trivia: "Low observables" relates to an aircraft's radar reflection, a.k.a. stealth technology on the F-117A, B-2, and F-22 Raptor (the most recent stealth aircraft acknowledged by the military). Technically the SR-71 has low observables (wing fillet and nose chine) though not to the extent of those above. I recall reading that even the B-1 is stealthy; the fillet between fuselage and wing reduces reflections and its four engines reflect 1/100 that of the B-52's (ugh) eight engines (not surprising given those bombers are separated by 30 years). See photos at Federation of American Scientitists. Interesting or frightening statement from FAS, depending on your perspective:
The limiting factor of the B-52’s service life is the economic limit of the aircraft's upper wing surface, calculated to be approximately 32,500 to 37,500 flight hours. Based on the projected economic service life and forecast mishap rates, the Air Force will be unable to maintain the requirement of 62 aircraft by 2044, after 84 years in service.
Ok, back to Subes. Got any more Subaru "observables" trivia questions for me?
..Mike
..Mike
Ok, now on to the fun stuff!
"Anyone else getting really excited about the new
Impreza? I am just realized that Subaru is going
to be offering 165 hp in a base model car, which as
far as I can tell is more than any car in its
class!
AWD + 165 hp for the price of a Civic? While the
WRX will no doubt be the attention stealer, the
base Impreza might just represent the deal of the
year. I'm certainly going to look at them once
they're out.
-- ash"
I am SOOOOOOOO freakin exited that I cant even look at other cars seriously til the 2002's come out! And I dont mean the WRX!!!
Im just hoping that its not too much for the base models ($18k is too much!) and somewhere around $16-17k for a base at most so I can get one! I really dont want to get a Focus ZX3, but thats my only alternative that I will even remotely consider (I can get one cheap with everything I want, and those cars handle oh so well)...
Now, WHEN WILL WE FIND OUT THE PRICES!!! ARG
Tom