I'm with ramon. I'd actually want to AVOID a vehicle that would flaunt my wealth (currently about $8.72 minus my debts).
I want stealthy performance, understated elegance.
Basically I want to impress my wife when she sits inside, and then proceed the blow the daylights out of surprised, inattentive drivers pulling out of that country club.
-juice
PS Bob - I hear you, but I still thought that was funny. Maybe now someone will review an LL!
That is at least a factory option on a LOT of the near luxo and luxo cars! SOA needs to get that going cause the people buying Luxos can't/don't want to use a regular map.
I am in Air-suspension hell on my XT6. Trying to find a needle in a hay stack to get it going... I'll never buy a car with air-suspension again. I hope Subie doesn't go back to that ever!
Just saw a 2002 Mountaineer at the Mall the other day. Funny because it cannot legally go on sale until the new year since it's a 2002, so I'm surprised they'd tease customers with the new one given they still have to sell the old one.
Goodyear tires.
The grill is a bit garish, not as bright as chrome so it looks like a dirty chrome grille. The headlights looked like eyes peeded back. The rear taillight protectors are chintsy too. But the new Explorer won't get any of these.
The vehicle is quite big. Looks like the Escape slipped into the Explorer's size class, and now this one is close to an Expedition. Real wide and roomy inside.
The built-in trailer is neat. Nice plugs for the outlet and a cover, all integrated. Disc brakes all around. Clean underside. 16" wheels seem small here. Overall very sturdy looking on the outside, though the tint was very dark so you couldn't see the 3rd seat well.
Regardless of build quality, these are going to sell even better than before, especially the Explorer.
But I'm saying that they aren't gonna attract that type of customer w/o those goodies. I like subies the way they are too, but everyone is saying they are trying to go "up class" well if they want to do that, then they need the goodies.
I bought a Garmin Streetpilot GPS and I mounted it on my Forester's dash. An extremely useful piece of equipment to assist with navigation, both in the city and off-road. I believe the GPS will go well with the outdoors image of the Outback/Forester. I have used the GPS unit in the Acura (at $2,000 a bit pricey) and I am suitably impressed with such an integrated unit.
If the option exist in a Subaru, I will certainly go for it.
Yeesh! Re: Auto Week. The spokesman said that, given pent-up demand, he expected current WRX supply to last 6-8 months. Not that they are sold out or that more cars wouldn't be shipped later in teh year.
That's all. Nothing to add to this GPS thingy. Carry on.
I have my notebook that I take on trips to unknown areas, but an integrated unit would be much more useful, so that I could use it on the fly. The Garmin one is nice, but I don't want to mount any addition crappola in my car (phone, GPS, CB, what next?)
Well, at least this guy does. I've played with an Alpine DVD-ROM-based GPS unit in a friend's Lexus SUV, and I was just impressed as heck. (I was also floored by the cost of the thing, though!) Been trying to come up with a good justification for the the Garmin Streetpilot unit, but can't quite make that GPS-to-roadmap cost ratio work out logically in my budget, even if it costs just a small fraction of the sleek GPS unit I saw in that Lexus.
I think it is probably a fair observation that very few country club types (at least in my corner of the world) would look at a Subaru when they're shopping for a sports sedan or luxury sedan. I think that's because Subaru still very much has the image among the general U.S. public as sort of an offbeat utilitarian/"value" brand rather than a cachet car. Now, that image may not be wholly fair, but I think it does keep those sort of folks from even thinking of looking at a Legacy. (I'm not sure how many people out there even know that Subaru makes sedans.) If you could get 'em in the dealership to seriously look at and test-drive a Legacy, then I think it could build some cachet among that set. Now, I do suspect, as someone else pointed out, that the Legacy might be a tad small inside to really compete seriously as a true luxury sedan, but I don't think anyone could easily dismiss a Legacy GT as a sports sedan (even more so if it had the H6 with a VDC option). I might also add that, while I did raise questions about the market niche of the Outback Sedan, I personally think it is quite a nifty car. I'm just a little unsure how easy that niftiness is to sell.
stick to the real drivin' and not fiddle with fussy knobs and buttons. Screw heated seats and automatic rain sensing wipers. I want my Scooby bear. Pure driving experience and not be weighed down with all sorts of gadgetries. I want the moeny poured on a GPS system be put instead on better suspension setup! I want the extra cash put on leather this leather that and heated this heated that on good wheels and tires! HA! A mark of a true Subaruist....
Oh, yeah, I also meant to mention a dual-range transmission as something to be added, or at least offered as an option, in all the Outback lines and at least the upper-end Forester. Glad other folks brought that up. I also failed to address the notion of a Subaru minivan. That's an idea that I have mixed feelings about. On the one hand, I've no doubt that Subaru could build a truly kick-[non-permissible content removed] AWD minivan (I visualize a strong Mazda MPV ES competitor). On the other hand, though, I'm not sure if that's a good market niche for Subaru to pursue right now. There are already a lot of minivans out there, and SUVs have captured a lot of the minivan market (a fact nicely parodied by the Mitsubshi Montero commercial in which no one at a gym wants to respond to the "tan minivan with its lights on" announcement). It's certainly possible that the minivan segment could become resurgent in a few years, the way that wagons have (in large part, I think, because of the Outback), but I'm not seeing a lot of signs for that yet. Oh, and the idea of some hybrid-engine Subarus would be absolutely terrific -- I suspect Subaru owners would be a great target market for a genuinely practical, reliable hybrid-engine vehicle -- but, yeah, I doubt if Subaru is big enough to have the resources to pursue that and my personal anti-GM bias leaves me kinda dubious that Subaru could get reliable hybrid technology from there.
The Legacy Sedan has more interior room than a 3-series, IS300, C-class (New Small Mercades) or Audi A4. I consider the fully loaded GT Limited a dirrect competitor with those due to the ride quality, safty, reliablity, and sportyness, for 5 grand less. (Also its a simular size, but a little lighter, even looks more like those cars, and feels like 'em on the inside too ) The Outbacks are a niche player definatly, but there more for the people who want the Off-road capability more than the rest.
Its definatly not competing with the much more expensive Lincoln LS, A6, 5-series, and such. Its actual compeditors are you know, the Passat, Maxima, Camry, etc. but none of those have the "German-sports-sedan" like handling of the Legacy GT's (direct quote from Motor Trend and Consumers).
BTW, Im excluding the older model legacys pre-2000 in this opinion.
The GT can't compete with the maxima and camary. It's WAY WAY WAY too underpowered to effectively compete with them. I'll give the GT handling, but until a Turbo or H6 gets in there it's gonna still be a wanna be sports sedan.
The Alpine unit is nice, but as you said costly (I think around $1000) While I'll pay extra for a GPS most other options I wouldn't pay for, if they are included (like they were in my Trooper) then I'll take em (and I really like the heated seats now!)
nematode: I'd settle for something that could run with the S4 Avant! Autoweek clocked an S4 at 5.6s to 60mph. Any quicker and I'd be in jail QUICK!
Personally, I don't care for GPS. I look at maps before I go, then hit the road. If you detour, that's usually when you find the most interesting places.
Also, I'm with ramon on this one. Cars are getting way too heavy, some close to two tons! What happened to lightness and agility? At least offer a stripped down sports version, without a rear seat warmer and back massager acting as 100 pounds of ballast.
People tend to shop by price, but the 3-series is tiny compared to the Legacy. Even the 5-series is a compact car according to the EPA.
If Subaru wants to play in the sport car or luxury space they need to create another brand such as Honda=Acura, Toyota=Lexus, Volkswagon=Audi, Nissan=Infiniti. However, this would involve a great deal of capital since this is a fairly expensive proposition (engineering, marketing) - but an effective way to enter a new market. It is very difficult to take an existing brand that has its own niche with existing customer opinions and turn it into something else. Since Subaru sales are strong, I believe this is an opportune time for them to make this move.
Offering an up-market brand will do nothing but harm to the Subaru label. First and formost, it would put a lid on how high Subaru (named) products can ascend. With an up-market sister brand, Subarus would eventually become a bland, mainstream nameplate. That none of us want!
If you don't want it to become mainstream, then you are going to be stuck with low volume cars, which means higher prices and less $ for research.
As for gadgets, I personally find the GPS leads me to adventuring to unknown roads and places knowing I can get back to where I started from. It is also a big help in traffic (northeast is riddled with traffic all the time)
If you don't like the heated seats, tear em out and put in racing seats Like I said, if it doesn't bump the price, I'll take em, but they aren't and necessity. Why do we have dash boards and passenger seats then? And sound deadening material? and carpeting? and clocks? and radios? and air conditioning? and hub caps? and windows?
What is the relationship between a GPS and a person's reproductive organs? It was stated by a few people that "real men" do not want GPS units. What a bunch of baloney!
For those who are interested, I got the best price for the GARMIN StreetPilot at 4X4books.com. With additional electronic maps, memory and other paraphalnia I must have spent close to $1,000 on the unit. It is worth every penny. It not only provides a moving map display with zooming capabilities as you travel, but will also allow you to do route planning on a PC for download to the unit. It also gives current speed, direction of travel, average speed since last reset, etc. Finding addressses, eating places, gas stations, stores, offramps, etc. is a snap with the information stored in the database. I used to loose my way often travelling around the SF Bay Area, be late for client meetings, or get myself into dangerous situations trying to look at maps while travelling at 70MPH in dense traffic. Not any more. SUBARU, please give us the option of an integrated GPS unit in your cars. I believe these are available in Japan?
(No offense meant to the Outback owners, okay? Okay. They're wonderful cars I'm sure, but not my cup of tea.)
I chose a Subaru GT sedan over Acura TL/CL, Audi A4, BMW 3 series, Ford Contour SVT. The biggest reasons I chose the Subie: 1) driving experience 2) AWD 3) value 4) cachet
I'll treat them one at a time.
1) Driving experience. The Legacy GT is fun to drive, at least my 5-speed is. -Lots- of fun to drive! Yes, the Bimmer was more fun. The 3 series is a sweet, sweet car. A lot more money though (see below). The GT was every bit as much fun as the A4 Quattro I drove. The Contour SVT was a hoot too but it was too noisy and crude inside. The Acuras didn't have a manual transmission, plus they're, pardon me, soulless, character-free vehicles (so are Toyotas IMHO), plus they were FWD, which brings me to...
2) AWD. I like to go around corners! And FWD just doesn't do it for me. Mind you, I've owned my share, from Minis to Saabs to Peugeot 405's (my last FWD car). I know what I like and it includes having power delivered to the rear wheels. My last car was RWD and I really wanted better winter traction, so AWD or RWD with traction control were heavily favored; in point of fact I began shopping with the intent of looking for an excuse to settle on an A4 Quattro. Which brings me to...
3) Value. Bang for the buck. The Audi didn't have a chance. The Bimmer did but the cost of entry was too high - over $30K to get a similarly equipped vehicle. My numbers showed me spending roughly $10K more for a Bimmer than the GT. That puts the Bimmer in a different ballpark altogether.
4) Cachet. Call it what you will but I don't like seeing myself coming down the road. I like the GT in part because there aren't a lot of them out there. I'll drive my car onto any country club grounds, and I'll park it in front of any MD office building. It's a good looking car and mine'll be the only one there. Perfect.
If I were constructing a marketing program for Subaru I'd continue with the AWD and safety angles, and keep on letting as many people as want them buy Outbacks for whatever reasons they like those things (I sure can't relate so don't ask me!). Then I'd vector some effort towards beefing up Subaru's Saab-like quirky exclusivity. Saabs cost WAY too much money these days; if you'll notice you've barely seen them being compared to ANY Subaru in this forum. (Add to that their reliability ratings and they've become a no-show on my shopping list.) There must be a measurable, significant "niche" of people like me who used to buy Saabs and Peugeots and maybe Alfas. People who like to drive and who like to pay for value. Target us with sporty Legacy sedans and wagons, and Imprezas that have the go-stuff but perhaps not so much of the boy-racer stuff. Sell us cars with character and a big fun to drive quotient and save most of the doodads for the Outbacks. Fill the gap left by Saab's move upscale.
Bob - I am perfectly happy with who and what Subaru is all about. However, Lexus, Acura and Audi haven't hurt the images of Toyota, Honda or Volkswagon. Is the Camary bland? Probably. But if you owned a top selling and highly rated sedan you might settle for bland too.
Many posters on the Subaru boards often make the comparisons to these and other luxury/sport models and give their $.02 as to what Subaru should do to play in this space. This is just my $.02 response.
pretty much nailed it. I say let Subaru gradually move (a bit) upscale, gradually, and on its own timetable.
I think the Acura name (used only here in North America), has hurt the Honda name here.
I grew up with Honda motorcycles, very sporting to say the least. The Honda ultra-performance motorcycle image is in stark contrast to the "Harry and Harriet homeowner" image portrayed here by their cars. With the exception of the S2000 (somewhat of an oddball for the marketing of Honda cars in the States), the cars are essentially a Japanese interpetition of an Oldsmobile.
I would hate to see a similar fate bestow Subaru.
If the the Integra, and the TL/CL/RL/NSXs were marketed under the Honda nameplate (such as in the UK, and elsewhere), and not Acura, that would not be the case at all.
Got a TL; agree with writer who says it can't handle like his Sub GT. I also gotta say that my TL does not handle as well as my 2000 Outback. Why Outback over GT? Headroom, headroom, headroom -- and storage space. And I like the looks and bun warmers (that's why no GT wagon)
TL is going into the classifieds -- despite the wonderful nav. system. Just don't use the car that much. Previous generation OB was rought enough that I used it as stuff hauler and bad-weather goer. Kept another car for long trips, hauling relatives etc. But the 2K Outback is so refined and smooth, its sily to have the extra car. As someone also said about the TL -- no character, just good luxury value for the $. My Subie dealer figures I'll give up the TL no later than the DAY the WRX arrives.
Mazda shelved Amati but still came out with premium products (Millenia). OK, it needs updating pretty badly, but you get the drift.
Answers for paisan: safety, practicality, noise suppression, etc. I think that's quite different than very expensive luxury options that only 2% of the population wants.
...windows? )
Prices and size/weight will drop, so GPSs may make more sense in a year or two. Then, on a model like the VDC (supercharged, of course), it would make sense.
wdb: interesting thought - Subaru could market owners of other quirky, small manufacturers. Especially roadsters like Fiats and MGs, which are often a 2nd car for the owner.
Colin has a point, too. Ford probably sells more 2 door red Explorers than Subaru sells cars.
I personally enjoy the satisfaction of finding my own way around. However, I can see where a GPS could be helpful for someone who is navigationally challenged. But it seems to me that using a GPS to navigate in unfamiliar urban surroundings is potentially far more dangerous than using a cel phone. But we're getting OT here. Does Edmund's have a GPS topic? ;-)
spend a few bux on a road map. So far my trusty Ontario map has yet to fail me. Most of the time I just look for that tall CN Tower to guide me back to home. I can only think of one thing the GPS is absolutely needed. On a boat. There's no landmark in tehmiddle of the ocean and definitely no gas station to pull into to ask for directions.
When I first heard of GPSs, the thought of men asking a machine for directions kept popping into my head. Or not wanting to ask, actually.
Balance that with the pro-gadget factor, I guess.
Just don't waste development dollars on such a small volume option, is all. Let GM spend that money, and make it a stand-alone option so I don't end up paying for it (or its development).
Acura certainly hasn't affected Honda sales to much. The J.D. Power web site shows the Honda Accord and Civic are ranked 5th and 9th in sales YTD covering all segments. In their respective segments Accord trails only the Camry and the Civic is ranked number 1.
I'd say more than 2% of the PREMIUM car buying market wants GPS. Don't forget we are discussing what it takes to make subaru go up-market.... Or at least I was...
I don't disagree with what you say. My point is that Honda doesn't need a separate Acuru franchise to accomplish the same sales success. Same with Toyota/Lexus, and Nissan/Infiniti.
All (or most) of the Acura/Honda models sold here under two franchises, are sold in Asia, Europe and other markets under the "Honda only" label. I know the Civics and Accords sold in other markets differ from the North American versions, but they occupy the same or similar market positions in other markests as they do here.
I just don't think those up-market brands are necessary. I don't know why the American market needs an Acura RL, instead of a Honda Legend (UK), or an Acura NSX, instead of a Honda NSX.
The only benefit I see, is that the up-market brands gets better warrantys. They also get a sales staff that, in my experience, often comes across as arrogant and superior.
Honda started the Acura line in 1986 because at the time (remember -- it was 14 years ago) Honda's reputation was built solidly on smallish, fuel-efficient, Swiss-watch-quality econoboxes. Even the Accord was built as a compact, albeit a semi-luxury one. No one would pay for a "luxury" Honda.
Honda was absolutely convinced it could not sell luxury Hondas. Hence the name, separate deal network, etc for the upsscale cars. by the way, Honda exceeded first-year sales projections with the Acura division to the embarrasment of the Swedes and Germans who thought they could never pull it off.
Toyota came along with Lexus, and the me-too auto company, Nissan was right there with Infiniti.
I think the second-channel concept has worked excellently for Toyota, less so for Honda and Nissan. Toyota products now enjoy the Lexus quality halo with no cheapening of the Lexus brand. As for Honda, they quit expandng the envelope and let Lexus and Infiniti checkmate them with higher-level luxury cars. But I submit, the concept was a solid one for Honda and Toyota -- not so sure about Nissan.
As for today -- Toyota turns out the near-luxury Avalon; Lexus sells two different SUVs; Caddy and Lincoln brand trucks; and VW is taking its brand to the luxury heights. The old rules just don't apply anymore -- Subaru has a lot of elasticity in its brand, as long as it stretches in the right niche directions. Just needs to make sure the products (AND THE DEALER EXPERIENCE) live up to the hype.
It still doesn't address as to why North America "needs" separate upscale dealer networks, and the rest of the world doesn't. I know Lexus is marketed in the UK, but Acura is not. Neither is Infiniti to the best of my knowledge.
Tom: but all things are relative - Accord was the #1 seller in the country when Acura was launched, and now it's not.
Though you could say the opposite about the Camry. Then again, Lexus was far more successful than Acura, so maybe that success rubbed off.
Nissan went sporty in a market thirsty for luxury. $ubaru (not a typo) would fail in a similar manner, especially with much less money behind the effort. Their strengths are good traction and (coming soon) sportiness, which means nothing in that niche.
paisan: I meant 2% of the total market. I'm sure maybe 30% of VDC buyers would pay extra for it.
is marketed throughout Europe, the Mid-East as well as Australia and New Zealand. So, it has truly become a "world" premium brand, unlike Acura and Infiniti, which are strictly "regional" premium brands.
Bob, I believe heftier profits is one of the reasons. I'm sure there are others. But your point is well taken. Underneath the fluff of a Lexus is probably just another Avalon.
And I agree that Subaru is doing fine. Anytime you can sustain sales growth means you are doing something right.
Juice, I agree things are relative. But by the same token, Accord sales have increased steadily over that same period for the most part. To continue to be at or near the top of the "family sedan" segment would classify as successful.
Comments
It looks like we're all pretty much on the same page here.
VDCs
I've seen several at various dealers. In fact, I drove one. However, for ever VDC, there seems to be 2 -3 LL Beans.
Bob
That plus LL Beans are abundant.
Just an observation.
-juice
Yeah Subaru can't go with the Country Club clique anyways. Also I always find ppl who go there are superficial yuppies.
Bob
-juice
I want stealthy performance, understated elegance.
Basically I want to impress my wife when she sits inside, and then proceed the blow the daylights out of surprised, inattentive drivers pulling out of that country club.
-juice
PS Bob - I hear you, but I still thought that was funny. Maybe now someone will review an LL!
-mike
-mike
Goodyear tires.
The grill is a bit garish, not as bright as chrome so it looks like a dirty chrome grille. The headlights looked like eyes peeded back. The rear taillight protectors are chintsy too. But the new Explorer won't get any of these.
The vehicle is quite big. Looks like the Escape slipped into the Explorer's size class, and now this one is close to an Expedition. Real wide and roomy inside.
The built-in trailer is neat. Nice plugs for the outlet and a cover, all integrated. Disc brakes all around. Clean underside. 16" wheels seem small here. Overall very sturdy looking on the outside, though the tint was very dark so you couldn't see the 3rd seat well.
Regardless of build quality, these are going to sell even better than before, especially the Explorer.
-juice
-mike
I have used the GPS unit in the Acura (at $2,000 a bit pricey) and I am suitably impressed with such an integrated unit.
If the option exist in a Subaru, I will certainly go for it.
Daniel
But don't waste money developing a new one - just recycle GM technology. Expand OnStar or something.
Spend Subaru dollars on turbos, please.
-juice
PS Daniel - how much? Any links?
I want something from Subaru that can run with......
http://www.audiworld.com/news/00/geneva/index_rs4.html
And I want it with US legal specks.
Even if its just a show car. You could knock off 100hp for the street if you want. I'll keep quiet.
What do you think? Could we get a vote here?
For=1
Against=0
Re: Auto Week. The spokesman said that, given pent-up demand, he expected current WRX supply to last 6-8 months. Not that they are sold out or that more cars wouldn't be shipped later in teh year.
That's all. Nothing to add to this GPS thingy. Carry on.
Ross
-mike
Now, I do suspect, as someone else pointed out, that the Legacy might be a tad small inside to really compete seriously as a true luxury sedan, but I don't think anyone could easily dismiss a Legacy GT as a sports sedan (even more so if it had the H6 with a VDC option).
I might also add that, while I did raise questions about the market niche of the Outback Sedan, I personally think it is quite a nifty car. I'm just a little unsure how easy that niftiness is to sell.
HA! A mark of a true Subaruist....
I also failed to address the notion of a Subaru minivan. That's an idea that I have mixed feelings about. On the one hand, I've no doubt that Subaru could build a truly kick-[non-permissible content removed] AWD minivan (I visualize a strong Mazda MPV ES competitor). On the other hand, though, I'm not sure if that's a good market niche for Subaru to pursue right now. There are already a lot of minivans out there, and SUVs have captured a lot of the minivan market (a fact nicely parodied by the Mitsubshi Montero commercial in which no one at a gym wants to respond to the "tan minivan with its lights on" announcement). It's certainly possible that the minivan segment could become resurgent in a few years, the way that wagons have (in large part, I think, because of the Outback), but I'm not seeing a lot of signs for that yet.
Oh, and the idea of some hybrid-engine Subarus would be absolutely terrific -- I suspect Subaru owners would be a great target market for a genuinely practical, reliable hybrid-engine vehicle -- but, yeah, I doubt if Subaru is big enough to have the resources to pursue that and my personal anti-GM bias leaves me kinda dubious that Subaru could get reliable hybrid technology from there.
Its definatly not competing with the much more expensive Lincoln LS, A6, 5-series, and such. Its actual compeditors are you know, the Passat, Maxima, Camry, etc. but none of those have the "German-sports-sedan" like handling of the Legacy GT's (direct quote from Motor Trend and Consumers).
BTW, Im excluding the older model legacys pre-2000 in this opinion.
-mike
-mike
Camry a sports sedan?!?!? Not in my book.
-Frank P.
Personally, I don't care for GPS. I look at maps before I go, then hit the road. If you detour, that's usually when you find the most interesting places.
Also, I'm with ramon on this one. Cars are getting way too heavy, some close to two tons! What happened to lightness and agility? At least offer a stripped down sports version, without a rear seat warmer and back massager acting as 100 pounds of ballast.
People tend to shop by price, but the 3-series is tiny compared to the Legacy. Even the 5-series is a compact car according to the EPA.
-juice
Offering an up-market brand will do nothing but harm to the Subaru label. First and formost, it would put a lid on how high Subaru (named) products can ascend. With an up-market sister brand, Subarus would eventually become a bland, mainstream nameplate. That none of us want!
Bob
-Colin
As for gadgets, I personally find the GPS leads me to adventuring to unknown roads and places knowing I can get back to where I started from. It is also a big help in traffic (northeast is riddled with traffic all the time)
If you don't like the heated seats, tear em out and put in racing seats
-mike
For those who are interested, I got the best price for the GARMIN StreetPilot at 4X4books.com. With additional electronic maps, memory and other paraphalnia I must have spent close to $1,000 on the unit. It is worth every penny. It not only provides a moving map display with zooming capabilities as you travel, but will also allow you to do route planning on a PC for download to the unit. It also gives current speed, direction of travel, average speed since last reset, etc. Finding addressses, eating places, gas stations, stores, offramps, etc. is a snap with the information stored in the database.
I used to loose my way often travelling around the SF Bay Area, be late for client meetings, or get myself into dangerous situations trying to look at maps while travelling at 70MPH in dense traffic. Not any more.
SUBARU, please give us the option of an integrated GPS unit in your cars. I believe these are available in Japan?
Daniel
I chose a Subaru GT sedan over Acura TL/CL, Audi A4, BMW 3 series, Ford Contour SVT. The biggest reasons I chose the Subie:
1) driving experience
2) AWD
3) value
4) cachet
I'll treat them one at a time.
1) Driving experience. The Legacy GT is fun to drive, at least my 5-speed is. -Lots- of fun to drive! Yes, the Bimmer was more fun. The 3 series is a sweet, sweet car. A lot more money though (see below). The GT was every bit as much fun as the A4 Quattro I drove. The Contour SVT was a hoot too but it was too noisy and crude inside. The Acuras didn't have a manual transmission, plus they're, pardon me, soulless, character-free vehicles (so are Toyotas IMHO), plus they were FWD, which brings me to...
2) AWD. I like to go around corners! And FWD just doesn't do it for me. Mind you, I've owned my share, from Minis to Saabs to Peugeot 405's (my last FWD car). I know what I like and it includes having power delivered to the rear wheels. My last car was RWD and I really wanted better winter traction, so AWD or RWD with traction control were heavily favored; in point of fact I began shopping with the intent of looking for an excuse to settle on an A4 Quattro. Which brings me to...
3) Value. Bang for the buck. The Audi didn't have a chance. The Bimmer did but the cost of entry was too high - over $30K to get a similarly equipped vehicle. My numbers showed me spending roughly $10K more for a Bimmer than the GT. That puts the Bimmer in a different ballpark altogether.
4) Cachet. Call it what you will but I don't like seeing myself coming down the road. I like the GT in part because there aren't a lot of them out there. I'll drive my car onto any country club grounds, and I'll park it in front of any MD office building. It's a good looking car and mine'll be the only one there. Perfect.
If I were constructing a marketing program for Subaru I'd continue with the AWD and safety angles, and keep on letting as many people as want them buy Outbacks for whatever reasons they like those things (I sure can't relate so don't ask me!). Then I'd vector some effort towards beefing up Subaru's Saab-like quirky exclusivity. Saabs cost WAY too much money these days; if you'll notice you've barely seen them being compared to ANY Subaru in this forum. (Add to that their reliability ratings and they've become a no-show on my shopping list.) There must be a measurable, significant "niche" of people like me who used to buy Saabs and Peugeots and maybe Alfas. People who like to drive and who like to pay for value. Target us with sporty Legacy sedans and wagons, and Imprezas that have the go-stuff but perhaps not so much of the boy-racer stuff. Sell us cars with character and a big fun to drive quotient and save most of the doodads for the Outbacks. Fill the gap left by Saab's move upscale.
Regards,
-wdb
Many posters on the Subaru boards often make the comparisons to these and other luxury/sport models and give their $.02 as to what Subaru should do to play in this space. This is just my $.02 response.
Colin, not so ridiculous if G.M. wants to play
Tom
-Colin
I think the Acura name (used only here in North America), has hurt the Honda name here.
I grew up with Honda motorcycles, very sporting to say the least. The Honda ultra-performance motorcycle image is in stark contrast to the "Harry and Harriet homeowner" image portrayed here by their cars. With the exception of the S2000 (somewhat of an oddball for the marketing of Honda cars in the States), the cars are essentially a Japanese interpetition of an Oldsmobile.
I would hate to see a similar fate bestow Subaru.
If the the Integra, and the TL/CL/RL/NSXs were marketed under the Honda nameplate (such as in the UK, and elsewhere), and not Acura, that would not be the case at all.
Bob
TL is going into the classifieds -- despite the wonderful nav. system. Just don't use the car that much. Previous generation OB was rought enough that I used it as stuff hauler and bad-weather goer. Kept another car for long trips, hauling relatives etc. But the 2K Outback is so refined and smooth, its sily to have the extra car. As someone also said about the TL -- no character, just good luxury value for the $. My Subie dealer figures I'll give up the TL no later than the DAY the WRX arrives.
Answers for paisan: safety, practicality, noise suppression, etc. I think that's quite different than very expensive luxury options that only 2% of the population wants.
...windows?
Prices and size/weight will drop, so GPSs may make more sense in a year or two. Then, on a model like the VDC (supercharged, of course), it would make sense.
wdb: interesting thought - Subaru could market owners of other quirky, small manufacturers. Especially roadsters like Fiats and MGs, which are often a 2nd car for the owner.
Colin has a point, too. Ford probably sells more 2 door red Explorers than Subaru sells cars.
-juice
-Frank P.
I can only think of one thing the GPS is absolutely needed. On a boat. There's no landmark in tehmiddle of the ocean and definitely no gas station to pull into to ask for directions.
Balance that with the pro-gadget factor, I guess.
Just don't waste development dollars on such a small volume option, is all. Let GM spend that money, and make it a stand-alone option so I don't end up paying for it (or its development).
-juice
Tom
-mike
All (or most) of the Acura/Honda models sold here under two franchises, are sold in Asia, Europe and other markets under the "Honda only" label. I know the Civics and Accords sold in other markets differ from the North American versions, but they occupy the same or similar market positions in other markests as they do here.
I just don't think those up-market brands are necessary. I don't know why the American market needs an Acura RL, instead of a Honda Legend (UK), or an Acura NSX, instead of a Honda NSX.
The only benefit I see, is that the up-market brands gets better warrantys. They also get a sales staff that, in my experience, often comes across as arrogant and superior.
Bob
Honda was absolutely convinced it could not sell luxury Hondas. Hence the name, separate deal network, etc for the upsscale cars. by the way, Honda exceeded first-year sales projections with the Acura division to the embarrasment of the Swedes and Germans who thought they could never pull it off.
Toyota came along with Lexus, and the me-too auto company, Nissan was right there with Infiniti.
I think the second-channel concept has worked excellently for Toyota, less so for Honda and Nissan. Toyota products now enjoy the Lexus quality halo with no cheapening of the Lexus brand. As for Honda, they quit expandng the envelope and let Lexus and Infiniti checkmate them with higher-level luxury cars. But I submit, the concept was a solid one for Honda and Toyota -- not so sure about Nissan.
As for today -- Toyota turns out the near-luxury Avalon; Lexus sells two different SUVs; Caddy and Lincoln brand trucks; and VW is taking its brand to the luxury heights. The old rules just don't apply anymore -- Subaru has a lot of elasticity in its brand, as long as it stretches in the right niche directions. Just needs to make sure the products (AND THE DEALER EXPERIENCE) live up to the hype.
It still doesn't address as to why North America "needs" separate upscale dealer networks, and the rest of the world doesn't. I know Lexus is marketed in the UK, but Acura is not. Neither is Infiniti to the best of my knowledge.
Bob
Though you could say the opposite about the Camry. Then again, Lexus was far more successful than Acura, so maybe that success rubbed off.
Nissan went sporty in a market thirsty for luxury.
$ubaru (not a typo) would fail in a similar manner, especially with much less money behind the effort. Their strengths are good traction and (coming soon) sportiness, which means nothing in that niche.
paisan: I meant 2% of the total market. I'm sure maybe 30% of VDC buyers would pay extra for it.
-juice
In any event, Subaru is doing just fine as is.
Bob
And I agree that Subaru is doing fine. Anytime you can sustain sales growth means you are doing something right.
Juice, I agree things are relative. But by the same token, Accord sales have increased steadily over that same period for the most part. To continue to be at or near the top of the "family sedan" segment would classify as successful.
Tom