Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland

The 2002 Explorer 4.6 has a new alloy block, unlike the Crown Vic versions.

Bob

rsholland

AutoWeek, the new WRX is already sold out for the first 6-8 months!

Also, the brake down of sedans vs wagons is roughly 80% sedans. Another

They mention that 10,000 WRXs are slated for the USA this year

Bob

locke2c

Bob, that sounds like Ford logic. Put the aluminum block in a truck/SUV instead of the Mustang where it might do some noticable good.

GM still hasn't put an aluminum block v8 in a truck/suv but the F-bodies and Corvettes have had it several years.

10,000 WRXs aren't going to be enough. They sold like 6 or 7,000 '00 2.5RS and it isn't nearly the car, nearly as hyped, anticipated, etc.

-Colin

kostamojen

The WRX's arent sold out like that, sorry. (ive talked to several dealers, and they dont have any reservations for it)

paisan

My dealer doesn't have 1 person who knows what a WRX is (other than me) but will get the same allocation as other dealers. I think the Mag is just trying to hype the car up a bit, which isn't a bad thing.

-mike

natescape

Hi gang. I was wondering if anyone knew if Subaru had any plans for a minivan, or if they fear a minivan would cannibalize the Outback and Forester sales?

rsholland

for the confusion regarding the WRXs being sold out. The article was quoting a Subaru spokesman who "thought" the WRXs would be sold out for the first 6 -8 months because of a huge pent up demand for the vehicle. My mistake.

Bob

ramon

I'm getting a 3rd year WRX then. No rush.... Hopefully they will have more improvements.
Does anyone know if the new WRX stateside have a rear LSD like the MY00 + RS?

locke2c

I'm sure it will Alwin.

-Colin

aakerson

Want to start a rolling brainstorm -- predict the 2005 Subaru lineup. Rules are: Make it a combination of your preference and prediction -- don't assume Subaru has unlimited $, even w/GM. Do assume Subaru wants to sell more cars, and that means reaching more market niches if not mainstream market, yet does not want to stray from core strengths. To stir it up, here's my lineup suggestion using existing platform lineup:

IMPREZA -- becomes sub-brand and expands ...
1.base model -- sedan and sta wgn., 2.5 engine but better mpg figures, price kept low to challenge Civic, Corolla, Protege, Focus it's a dealer advertising loss leader

2. Plus model -- same engine, 6 sp. manual, nicer insides including opt. leather, seat warmers, power driver seat, trip computer

3. WRX -- 6 sp. man., Recaro seats, possible Panoz model (appearance add-ons only), finds itself in buff book comparos with BMW 3-sries and winning handily. coupe returns

4. High-mileage hybrid-engine model? Only if GM pops for it.

FORESTER -- becomes sub-brand w/3 models
1. current model redesigned 2002/2003, bigger than current model or new Impreza (backseat woes solved) now called the Forester Sacajewea (can't spell it) after the FEMALE scout who led Lewis & Clark; breakthough name to aggressively appeal to female market (hey, it's a brainstorm, Okay? no bad ideas in a brainstorm)

2. STX pickup -- base modeal and LL Bean model with outdoor add-ons to execute Aztek concept the right way

3. Macho looking but slightly undersized minivan (a la new Mazda), but has the six cyl. to solve Mazda's problem, AWD of course, nicely tricked out to further eat away at big 3 minivans, handles well, accelerates well, designed for the soccer mom w/attitude who doesn't mind breaking a nail now and then, and the husband who feels embarrased in an Odyssey, Town and Country or other.

LEGACY --
fading, loss leader base sedan and wagon (blaah --stays in lineup only so dealers have newspaper ad price leader along with Impreza base)

OUTBACK -- expanded to three models
1. Outback Classic -- continuation of current wagon with current features, engine w/ more low-end torque, possible addition of nav. system, OnStar, smoother transmission thanks to GM; appeals to people whose previous car was Grand Cherokee or other landed gentry SUV, but now want something smaller, more manageable -- but still virile -- in their AARP years.
2. Outback Summit -- new, true SUV, built off Legacy platform but 4-6 inches longer, 1-2 inches wider and 3 inches higher with more macho look (Sub's version of Toyo Highlander)and the 6-cyl with hp. beef-up, hits the 20 mpg EPA city mark, auto. only of course. Possible name: Summit (used before, but don't forget, Plymouth once called their wagons "Suburbans" yet Chevy continues to succeed w/the name)

3. sedan -- I'm stumped -- more GT-like or more Outback like? Does it die -- if so, no Legacy sedan at all because Legacy base model sales won't fund cost of the sedan body. Sub. should not try the Accord/Camry/Taurus/Intrigue/etc. Hopefully learned its lesson in the mid 90s.

bluesubie

Nate - there was a concept called the Exiga built a few years ago. Haven't heard anything lately though.
http://www.subaru.net/prototype/exiga.html
Dennis

rsholland

I think each model line will become more focused. We're already seeing that with the Impreza - moving more towards performance, and less as a entry-level model.

I think the Forester and ST-X (or whatever they end up calling it) will have dual-range transmissions, and have better towing capability. The Forester will become a bit more utility-friendly/capable than it currently is. I think both will offer some sort of power upgrade, as an option; either the H-6 or supercharged H-4. My bet is the H-4 w/SC.

I don't think the Legacy will disappear. I think the "L" will evolve into a "TS" with standard alloy wheels, and perhaps a few other goodies, such as an optional H-6, with a 5-speed manual choice. I think the GT will get a high-output and/or larger version of the H-6 as standard. Whereas the WRX is more hard-core performance, I think the GT will become a "true' GT; meaning both luxury and excellent performance to be part of the package.

I think the Outback lineup will consolidate into fewer models. I think the VDC and LL Bean will merge into one vehicle. I see the Limited being dropped as a model, but offer leather and moonroof as options on the base Outback. The base Outback will get the same H-6 as an option as does the "TS" Legacy, and with a manual 5-speed choice.

I think we will see some sort of coupe roadster, base upon WRX/Legacy GT components.

There is reportedly a larger SUV/wagon in the works with 3-row seating. I would expect it to have a larger than 3.0 H-6, probably at least 3.5L, or larger.

As you may have guessed, I'm hoping for 5-speed automatics to replaces 4-speed automatics, and performance models (WRX/Legacy GT/coupe-roadster) to offer 6-speed manuals and 5-speed tiptronic automatics.

I also think Subaru, as a brand, will be positioned between the mainstream brands (Honda, Toyota, etc.) and the upscale brands (Audi, BMW, etc.)

Bob

rsholland

I think between now and 2005, you will see Subaru make a HUGE marketing effort to sell AWD as a year-round advantage, and not just for snow.

Those of us here in the Church of Our Holy Subaru already know this. The rest of the world doesn't. Subaru sales are not do nearly as good in the sun-belt states, as they are in snowy climates. I'm betting Subaru is going to make a big effort to change that perception - to make owning a Subaru desirable, no matter where you live.

That means selling PERFORMANCE! The launch of the new Impreza is I predict the first phase of this new marketing effort. With that in mind, I here's what I also think we could also see:

In addition to what we know is coming to the Impreza lineup, I think we could also see a 3.0 H-6 model added. Subaru has always stuffed large engines into small packages. I can see a 3.0 H-6 going in there - and I think it would appeal to a different customer than the WRX does.

I can see additional variations of the H-6, such as:

3.2L (Forester, Legacy TS [see above post], Outback)

3.4L or 3.5L (Legacy GT)

If Subaru is gong to make a performance push, as I predict, I think they will offer some "startling" engine/model combinations, to really catch the public's attention, such as I've described.

Bob

nematode

I would like to see an Audi S4 Avant fighter or some kind of super wagon.

ramon

the name's WRX wagon. I think the STi WRX wagon already stomp all over the S4 Avant. Not sure about the RS4 Avant though.
You mean performance wise right? And not luxury.
Also I believe the Legacy GTB wagon is 280hp twin turbo goodness.

ain't she a beaut?

miksmi

Amen brother Sudhir, amen! A Legacy platform with RS4 Avant features.. yum! A4 and Impreza platforms are too small for my tastes; A6 too expensive and styling too bland; Legacy is just right -- not too small, not too big. Man, what a sleeper that would be, even with a hood scoop (but skip the rear spoiler). Oh that's right, ramon, they already make that the GT-B; wish it were imported here.

Agnatically yours,

..Mike

paisan

I thought I read somewhere that the new WRX was going to have the VTD system which would indicate no LSD on it... I vaguely remember hearing that somewhere...

-mike

soon2bsubee

Re: the Legacy disappearing...check the slaes figures from the SoA press releases...Legacy outsells the other models each month....not everyone likes the Outback's high look...one reason we ordered the Legacy...

paisan

The Legacy L is a very good car @ under $20K. We compared em to others in it's class and it can't be beat.

-mike

nematode

When I was refering to the S4 I really meant RS4 for a super wagon. You know, the one with something like 380hp. My mistake.
Now on to the babble....
The S4 Avant is what I'm saving my pennies for currently. Dont get too excited boys and girls, its for about 7 years down the road. Basically, I want Subaru to make it hard for me to buy the S4 Avant.
My biggest problem with the S4 and the only reason I still have my doubts about it is that its small.

Yea, I have briefly considered the Volvo T5 and SAAB 9-5 Aero but there are 2-3 days a year where I really NEED AWD so they are out. The Audi All-Road is over $50k and too slow for the price and the height adjustment is pretty much useless to me.

While I really like the idea of the the Impreza WRX wagon. It does not solve the size problem either. In fact the Impreza WRX wagon in its current form is more of a boy-racer than S4 or even BMW fighter in my opnion. Kinda reminds be of the Eclipse GSX in terms of the audience they are going after. On the other hand The Sti WRX based on the GT looks like a killer. I dont mind the hood scoop because its functional. Its the fake one I dont like. BUT will come of it? If it does I'll be more than happy to change my mind.

The Impreza WRX is only about 25hp away from the S4 and I'm sure it could give it run for its money. For me thats not all there is....A Trans Am Firehawk will smoke them both but I still dont want one. From the spy photos I really really really REALLY dont like the Neon style front end of the Impreza WRX. Some may, but I thought it looked horrible.

While I like the idea behind the Impreza WRX wagon, I like refined (more luxury, HID, 6spd, understated style, and so on) first then fast second. If I just wanted fast I would probably get a 2k GT Wagon in a couple of years and give RPS performance systems a call and get 250hp total for the cost of the car plus about $4500-5000(probably less). If Subaru is smart they will prevent me from doing this by making a GT based WRX.

Even if it was only for the show circuit I would like Subaru to make a 400hp (yes, I said 400 and why not?) wagon about the size, or even better, a little bigger then the Legacy GT with all the cool goodies like HID, 6spd, guages for guages, lots of buttons, bias control, everything. Then give us a 300hp version for the street in 2005-7 with most of those things for $50k.

Nobody is going to make a 350hp minivan (which is what I really want) for me so the best I can hope for is a 300hp wagon which may happen. At this point 250hp is as close as it gets.

rsholland

Here's the sedan version. Both these images, BTW, are from the Subaru New Zealand site.

This is the model range link. If you follow to the Legacy specs link you will note that the twin-turbo used on these models are a SOHC design, not the DOHC format used on the WRX.

http://www.subaru.co.nz/range_frameset.html

Bob

amishra

Okay, I just don't get it. North America is one HUGE market, and yet we don't get any goodies like the RSK Legacys. Come on Subaru, cough it up!

Geez, they're enough to salivate over...

rsholland

I think a big part of it has to do with passing the emissions tests here in the USA. The new WRX is the first Subaru turbo to do so. So... there is hope for the future!

Another thing that's funny. New Zealand gets some pretty neat stuff, judging by their site. In fact, the NZ model lineup appears to be more exciting than that of Australia and the European markets! I don't think the twin-turbo Legacys are sold anywhere else but Japan and New Zealand.

Bob

ramon

SUbaru got burnt when they inroduced the Legacy Turbos way back when. Owners didnt know how to take car a turbocharged car thus causing alot of warranty problems. So Subaru thought to themselves "why should we give these North American baffoons great cars?".
Besides alot of ppl rather buy a 3 series than a B4 RSK for around the same ball park price. Think about it. North American prefer status than out right performance.

bluesubie

paisan - I think the VTD on the WRX is for the JDM only. Guess we'll find out for sure in January.
Also, Glenn Wallace is invited to the WRX unveiling in Detroit (posted at the i-club).

Ramon - And hopefully with information that is available on the internet, turbo owners will be more aware of how to take care of them. The performance Legacy's future probably depends on how the WRX goes.

Dennis

rsholland

I'd like to see two items, that used to be available here in the States, become available again. They are:

1. Hill-Holder clutch
For those not familiar with this, it allows you to engage the clutch, without rolling backwards on hills. It's still available on every continent, except North America. Why not here too??

2. Dual-Range transmissions
Again... it's available everywhere but here. Has been for years.

I would, however, like to see this unit become a "Triple-Range" transmission. The current low range is hardly low. The gear reduction is very slight. I would like to see the current low range continue, but add a syncro for easy shift-on-the-fly between this range and high range, and... add a "True Deep Low Range" for serious traction situations.

Also, make it available on automatics. Subaru has never, to date, offered a low-range in any of their automatics.

I see this going in the Forester, the ST-X pickup, and perhaps the Outback too. Maybe the Outback gets just the dual-range unit, instead of the triple-range unit?

Bob

ramon

we lost the hill holder capability when Subaru switched from cable link to hydraulic clutch system. Not sure will we ever see it since we're using this hydraulic linkage...

rsholland

What about all the other (new) Hill-Holder equipped Subarus in other markets? Wouldn't they also use a hydraulic unit?

Bob

francophile

Then again, Mercedes is moving to brake-by-wire, and guess what one of the features is? Yep, a hill holder. According to Autoweek a firm push of the pedal after a stop will keep the brakes on until the throttle is depressed.

Cheers,
-wdb

e_l_green

I think part of the reason American manual transmission cars don't get the goodies (hill holder, dual-range gearbox) is because they would make the manual transmission cars as expensive to manufacture as the automatic transmission cars. But Americans refuse to buy manual transmission cars when they're as expensive as the automatic transmission cars (not that Americans buy many manual transmission cars anyhow -- over 80% of all cars sold in the United States have automatic transmission).

I once thought there might be a right hand drive/ left hand drive issue too, but someone from the Netherlands has informed me that his manual-transmission Impreza has the dual-range gear box, and they drive on the same side of the road as we here in the 'States.

-Eric

texsubaru

I think they add to the new Impreza's fresher, more contemporary look, myself. I suspect that in 2 or 3 years a 2000 Impreza will look notably outdated sitting next to a 2001 model.
But I'm not quite so sure about this trickier question: In 10-12 years, if you see a 2000 Impreza and a 2001 Impreza side-by-side, which will you automatically consider to be the "classic" version?

texsubaru

Well, if I were a Subaru adviser, here's what I'd be looking at:
1) I agree with pretty much all of aakerson's predictions on the Impreza, including the return of the coupe. (I'm not sure if a turbo Impreza coupe would leave a lot of room for a separate roadster coupe, as Bob Holland would like).
2) I agree with aakerson's general Forester vision, too, but I'd collapse his Forester scheme and "Outback Summit" idea into two Forester models: the current Impreza-platform-based, H4-powered Forester sold as an entry-level SUV (I think pitching it even more at a female audience does make a certain amount of marketing sense), and a new larger Legacy-platform-based, H6-powered "Grand Forester" (hopefully with a snazzier name than that) with much improved back seat room and somewhat heftier towing capacity.
3. STX pickup, if it survives (I'm a hair skeptical of the long-term viability of the revived, revved-up Brat concept, interesting though it is), will end up being sold as the "Outback Sport" or something like that.
4. Outback: A slightly tricked-up (maybe with some body side cladding) Legacy L Wagon becomes the base entry-level Outback and the equivalent of the L.L. Bean model (offering VDC as part of an option package) becomes the H6-powered luxury-wagon "Outback GT."
5. The Legacy continues on in at least 2 models: a base Legacy L roughly equivalent to the current version but perhaps a little better equipped (as Bob Holland suggested), and a more upscale H6-equipped Legacy GT sports sedan with VDC as standard equipment, IF the system is modified so a hardcore performance driver can turn the VDC off occasionally if he wants to). And I think there might still be room for an Outback Legacy sedan (positioned as perhaps the midlevel model, with the H4 standard, but the H6 and VDC available as a couple of separate options). I'm a little iffy on the Outback sedan because I'm uncertain how well it now sells (not sure I've ever seen one on the road here in Austin), and it sort of seems to muddle the lineup a little.

rsholland

Somebody over in the "Wagon" area wished for a larger sedan. He's 6'5', and can't fit comfortably in a Legacy.

I too have wondered if there is room in Subaru's lineup for an (additional) "larger" sedan/platform, say about 108" wheelbase, and perhaps up to 72" wide?

We all know that a larger 3-row seating wagon/SUV is being co-developed with GM for a launch somewhere around 2004-5. Could there also be a yet-to-be-announced (larger) sedan, built off the larger wagon/SUV platform, in the offering too?

Bob

rsholland

I agree that the Outback sedan is an odd number - sort of a-fish-out-of-water, if you know what I mean. If that vehicle continues, I suggest that they make the H-6 standard, and perhaps call it the LL Bean Outback Sedan?

Bob

dsackman

I do hope Subaru continues with the Outback Sedan. With BMW now offering AWD on their 325 and 330 sedan models, the Subaru Outback Sedan will be a good alternative to a six month waiting list.
The Outback Sedan should be the non-wagon equivalent to the VDC. Should have all the auto climate, VDC and audio as in the Outback Wagon.
There are people out there who do not want a wagon, but still take their cars into the real outdoors and requires the ruggedness.

Daniel

rsholland

Excellent point about the Outback sedan as being a BMW 325/330 AWD alternative. All the more reason to put the H-6/VDC in it.

Bob

francophile

...an AWD Bimmer alternative? They already have one of those, it's called a Legacy GT sedan. It's a pretty blasted good alternative to the Audi A4 Quattro too.

Regards,
-wdb

paisan

1) Turbo issues... If the pitcher hits the stone or the stone hit's the pitcher, it is going to be bad for the pitcher! What I'm saying is reffering to SOA getting burnt in the past on turbos that consumers didn't take care of (longer oil changes than were required, lower octane fuel use, no cool down after running the turbo) this led to a bad reputation of subarus, even though it wasn't SOA's fault that they failed.

2) BMW/Audi comparison to a Subie, I don't care how better the subie is, you aren't gonna get buffy darling to take a subaru to the country club and compare it to their friend's lexus and acuras. The market isn't worth subaru going after. Which is precisely why they should dump an H6 in the Legacy line for the "I can't afford a BMW, but I want to have a foreign performance sedan..."

-mike

paisan

SVX w/ 3.0l Twin Turbo unit in it. (same body as old one)

SLX:

stretched out Legacy, widenend, comparable to the S8/A8, H8 engine, and all the goodies of the S8/A8 GPS, etc.

If subaru wants to get competeing with the BMWs, and "Luxury cars" they have to offer HID and GPS as options at the least.

-mike

kostamojen

Hey, My mom got her 2000 Legacy GT Limited (white/spoiler) cause the Beemer was too expensive and wasnt AWD. It looks better too Ill gladly drive it up to a country club and show it off to see the reaction

When she first got it, and it didnt have licence plates, alot of people were looking at us like "whats that car???" and a couple people at parking lots asked us what it is (as they were getting into expensive SUV's I might add) and kids in cars open thier windows and say "cool car!" and dont have a clue what it is...
Not often a car can apeal to two, even 3 markets at the same time... Still suprized how few I'm seeing around.

paisan

I'm not sure about other parts of the country but in the NY/NJ/CT Metro area, I don't think people would be caught dead with a subie @ the country club! Not that I like them, but if that is the market that SOA is shooting for, it's not gonna happen. You can't push subies into the luxury class of autos without launching a costly "Luxury Division" Which may or may not catch on. I'm glad that you have the balls to drive your subie to the country club (as I would drive my Trooper there too even though it's not considered luxo)

-mike

rsholland

Point well taken!

Bob

p0926

I learned to drive a manual in the mountains so this is a non-issue. However, I sure could have used it back then! :-)

-Frank P.

retsyn

I was in Tokyo about a month ago and saw several of them, they are in a word FANTASTIC! My favorite was this really deep dark purple/blue color. Anyway, my message to SOA is PLEASE bring over the B4 or something equivalent. I was going to buy a new WRX this year, that is until I actually saw one. I won't rehash the styling issue. Suffice it to say, I'd like a vehicle that looks good AND performs. The WRX just looks cheezy, and it isn't much better in the flesh. Just my .02

rsholland

a height-adjustable suspension for the Forester, Outback and ST-X?

I just read that Mercedes will be offering this feature on the next generation ML, MLG ( G-Class replacement) and all-new GST (Grand Sport Touring, a SUV/wagon hybrid). Jeep is also reportedly going to offer such a system (code-named "Overland") on the next-generation Grand Cherokee.

An height-adjustable suspension would allow for low ground clearance/center of gravity for highway use, and a raised suspension for off-road forays.

As with VDC, Subaru could use this as part of a safety pitch.

It could be costly, however... high costs haven't deterred Subaru from offering VDC on the Outback.

Bob

rsholland

what about offering an H-4 turbo diesel? Say around 2.7L? This would have to have an iron block, as opposed to alloy, for strength.

Diesels have never been popular here, but they're very popular overseas, especially in taxis, lease vehicles, and in SUVs/trucks of all sizes. Subaru could attract a whole new customer base by offering such an engine in those markets.

Bob

locke2c

I think Subaru is still stinging from the air-ride suspension available in some late 80s-early 90s models. It was optional on the XT and Legacy at least, maybe others. Anyway, it broke fairly often and was very costly to replace ($1500+).

Subaru got away from quirky, costly and malfunction-prone things of that nature and their brand reliability has gone up significantly.

-Colin

ateixeira

wdb: your defense of Ford sounds impressive until you consider that to prevent rollovers they removed air from the tires. Hardly "hard engineering". Ford shares at least part of the blame.

Ken sent me a WRX preview video, and a few quick impressions:

* the head lights look much better when lit
* the seats look awesome, hope ours are similar
* darker colors make the flares show more
* Brembo brakes on some models look sweet
* visibly neutral handling on a wet track
* rear seat is roomier
* wagon is more like a 5 door hatch really

Most dialogue is in Japanese, so I was a bit lost, but watching a WRX duel with a Porsche was fascinating.

Nate: careful, if we wish too hard for a minivan, we may get a Montana-platformed model.

Serge: Legacy does not outsell the Outback. Subaru publishes sales for the Legacy model line, but that figure includes Outback sales. In reality, it's about 3 to 1 in favor of Outbacks. But just look around and you'll agree!

-juice

ateixeira

Impreza:
sedan/wagon with 2.5l
Outback Sport with 2.5l, low range, tow package
WRX sedan/wagon with 2.0l turbo 227hp
WRX STi sedan with 280hp

SVX:
Impreza coupe with 280hp and more luxury
Also as a roadster

Forester:
2.5l base but with low range and tow package
S model with H6

Legacy:
L value model as-is
GT with 227hp and 5 speed
Blitzen with 280hp and 6 speed WAGON PLEASE!

Outback:
H6 standard, low range, tow package
H6 surpercharged VDC model with 300hp

Forester Plus:
same as Outback but 3 row seating

STX:
H6 standard, low range, tow package

What a beautiful line-up. I'd find it very, very hard to choose, actually. I'd have to own maybe 3 of them. Which 3 would be hard to say...

-juice

amishra

H6 standard in the OB for a decent price would cement Subaru's grip of the hybrid market easily.

Right now there isn't much to distinguish the OB from the Legacy except looks and some bonus functionality. If you're paying more for an OB vs a Legacy L, you should get a better engine than the Legacy L gets.