Subaru Crew - Future Models II

paisan

Someone mentioned that the TLC was heading to an early death in the US market due to that. I wouldn't be suprised to see the LX 470 become a rebadge Sequoia. The other advantage to the Rebadging of the Sequoia would be the import tax that the TLC currently carries.

-mike

p0926

mike- Sorry but it's not true that all Olds dealers have or will become Caddy dealers. Maybe GM offered that deal to some (but not all) dealers and they certainly didn't make it a requirement.

-Frank P.

paisan

I read that they forced all Olds dealers to take on the Caddy dealership as well. Every single one in my area either dropped their Olds dealership or gained a caddy dealership. The one very close to my house, one of the oldest Olds dealers in the country dropped Olds when this took place because they didn't want the added expense to upgrade their showrooms etc. to qualify for the Caddy dealership. Maybe it was only a Northeast regional, but when this first happened I asked a friend who is a car dealer and he asked around and that was the answer they told him.

-mike

rsholland

Several years ago, before the announcement of Olds being dropped, GM was trying to *pair* various brands together as far as dealerships were concerned. I believe it went like this:

Caddy, Olds & Chevy

Buick, Pontiac & GMC

Saturn (by itself)

Most (not all, but most) GM dealerships are now set up this way. Once Olds is dropped for good, who knows what will happen...

Bob

ateixeira

Bob: even the LC100 is off-road oriented, at least in the form delivered to 3rd world countries. My dad's had steel rims, manual locking diffs, diesel engine, 5 speed manual, vinyl seats, skid plates, low range, 3 row seating, you name it. I believe it has two solid axles, even.

He's in Ecuador right now, but when he gets back I'll ask him to dig up some photos. I got to drive his diesel LC, and it was niiiiiice! That diesel clattered like a champ on the outside, but it was quiet inside, solid as a rock, that chassis.

Basically, it's the same chassis used here, but a very basic drivetrain. In character it is very distinct from the Lexus LX470.

I heard the same rumor paisan did, i.e. that the next LX470 would be based on the Sequoia. It is bigger, and US buyers don't go off road, so it makes sense.

Actually, Bob, it was "BOC" (Buick, Olds, Cadillac), but that strategy bombed so they backed out of it later.

-juice

hpulley4

In Canada, Saturn dealerships are partnered with Saab and Isuzu, sort of as GM's 'import' dealers. Geo used to be placed with Chev Olds dealers before they rebadged their Canadian-made Toyota and Suzuki partnered vehicles as Chevys. There are Chev Olds Caddy dealers and Pontiac, Buick, GMC, Caddy dealers around here.

With GM's part ownership of Subaru I wonder if they'll throw Subies in with another GM dealership sometime? I had GM points to burn when I bought a vehicle this year which is too bad as between that and the low financing, it sent me away from buying a Legacy/Outback wagon, over to Saturn for an LW instead.

ateixeira

Subaru has a card, too, but they've managed to remain fairly independent. The Traviq is the exception, but it's not for US sale.

The Subie dealers around here are paired up with Dodge, Oldsmobile, Jeep, you name it.

-juice

fibber2

If any one of you has shopped for a lawn or garden tractor in the past 2-3 years, you would have seen probably the number 1 volume application of belt drive variable pully diameter CVT's. MTD Corp (Yard Machines, Yard Man, White, Cub Cadette) calls it "Pedal Drive". Most of the others makes (John Deer, Husquvarna, etc.) have a version also. They are cheaper and easier to service than hydrostatic, yet almost as smooth and robust. My Yard Man has a 17hp OHV V2 with CVT and I love it. You set the engine at a constant speed (usually full open when cutting, although when I have the deck off and am using other accessories, I use lower engine speeds). Apply gentle pressure to the "gas pedal" and it creeps forward, tip in and it speeds up, lift and it comes to a halt (drive train braking). A great setup.

Steve

paisan

Funny thing I was reading the chilton's manual for the XT6 and it covers the justy with it's CVT.

-mike

ateixeira

Speaking of CVTs, I found this interesting. The Subaru Pleo, from Japan, was the highest quality car, per JD Power's survey, with just 104 defects per 100 vehicles. The worst had 201 defects, nearly double.

Interestingly, they wrote "The Pleo benefited from its relavitely trouble-free continuously variable transmission, which allowed it to rank tops in the transmission category."

So they could potentially use reliability as a selling point.

-juice

jimmyp1

ateixeira

Nope, it's per 100 cars. They count any tiny little defect, for the first 90 days of ownership. If you read Consumer Reports, they typically find 2-3 sample defects in the cars they test.

-juice

ateixeira

BTW, I also read that 220 line workers at SIA that were on the Isuzu lines will move over to the Subaru assembly lines. Demand for new models and the H6, probably.

-juice

p0926

Juice- Or the lack of demand for anything Isuzu. Have you seen the Nov sales figures?

Model / Nov 01 / Nov 00
Rodeo / 2725 / 4342
Trooper / 942 / 2392
Axiom / 900 / NA
Rodeo Sport/Amigo / 216 / 358
VehiCROSS / 54 / 66

Overall Isuzu YTD sales are down almost 25%. In Comparison, Subaru's YTD sales volume is up 8% (wholly due to the new Impreza).

-Frank P.

lark6

So Subaru's increased demand is for a car built solely in Japan. I'm guessing that the shift of workers is in anticipation of the new Baja - I mean, "not BRAT" ;-* .

Ed

FrankMc

Subaru of America marketing type answering questions for awhile a year or so ago. Someone asked him about the possibility of a Legacy based SUV, instead of the smaller Forester. His response was something like "we don't have the capacity to take away production from the Outback". The Legacy/Outback sales may be constrained by the production capacity of Indiana..

Frank

paisan

That's just my opinion on the whole GM Rape->Pillage->Burn business technique.

-mike

FrankMc

brands, and I also remember the Opel by Isuzu's imported by GM in the early 70's (showing a 30 year at least GM-Isuzu tie in). I mean they may screw up and the Isuzu brand gets destroyed , but I don't think that it would be a business technique. There are also an enormous number of car brands. (compared to other products). Considering the enormous amount of money it takes to design and produce cars it wouldn't surprise me if there are a few brands that get absorbed.

Frank

p0926

paisan

What will happen is that GM will use Isuzu to sell it's trucks over seas as they do now (GM sells the trooper in Mexico badged as a Chevy) and will use the Diesel Technology (Duramax) and Isuzu's Mid-sized Truck division to make and sell mid-sized GMC trucks (Box Trucks etc)

-mike

locke2c

mike, isuzu might not be selling trucks in the US in 5 years but they most definitely will NOT be out of business globally speaking.

their US presence has been hurting for a long time, look up the numbers. don't you think they would sell cars in the US if they could?

-Colin

rsholland

There are just too many brands out there competing for market share. In order to be successful, a car company has to offer something unique and different, that nobody else offers—and that the public wants. Subaru is a text-book example of that kind of strategy.

Bob

paisan

Isuzu annonced it will close it's SUV production in Japan within 4 years. They will be re-badging GMs for sale outside the US after that. Only thier Med-duty trucks and bus division and diesel engine plants will remain. Not that their passenger vehicle division was ever that big.

-mike

locke2c

that's exactly what I'd expect, and I was referring to only the strength of the medium truck and buses.

-Colin

paisan

Yep Med-duty trucks and busses and diesel technology is alive and well (also marine diesels's too)

-mike

lark6

So paisan, then you can join me and the Studebaker bunch when I go to orphan car shows! :-P

Speaking of which, where IS bitman these days?

Ed

ateixeira

GM wants Isuzu for their diesel technology. Have you noticed how prominent the Isuzu diesel engine is in their advertising?

Total Isuzu sales are not even a blip on the charts compared to GM truck sales.

-juice

rsholland

for their cab-over medium truck expertise. All GMC and Chevy cab-over medium-duty (Class 4 -7, W-Series) trucks are Isuzus.

Bob

odd1

I went to the local dealer today to test drive a Forester. When I asked the salesperson for info on the changes for'03. He said no chassis changes but that he can confirm WRX turbo detuned to 210hp for the '03 Forester. He also proudly showed me the pictures of his WRX at rally. I found out he is the local i-club prez. What a nice change from buying cars that I know more about than the sales rep.

paisan

Don't believe everything a dealer tells you. SOA hasn't announced anything about the '03 Forester yet so we'll have to sit tight and see what happens.

-mike

odd1

I know. I go back and forth on whether to believe. I'm 6'4"(leg room is important) so he made have said no chassis changes to get a sale now but I pulled up in the Bimmer. He had to know power is important to me.

fibber2

What? Nobody interested in the latest advances in lawn equipment? Must be talking to a bunch of city-slickers.... ;-) Maybe Subaru could go into competition with Honda in a whole new market?

Steve

hammersley

I'll bite! My '89 John Deere STX 38 is still running strong. It has the old-technology 5-speed gearbox. To keep it on topic, it occasionally shares garage space with my Subaru.
I'm the city slicker. My wife is the country girl. The house on an acre was a compromise between the two.

Cheers!
Paul

ateixeira

Agreed, Bob, but my knowledge is limited to passenger cars and trucks, so that's what I focus on.

2 sources I've read said the turbo Forester will only come for MY2004. Did he mean 2003 as in calendar year? 210hp sounds nice, but more displacement would be even better.

Steve: you would have loved the SUV vs. Goat topic, then. It's been archived because we were having a little too much fun.

-juice

rsholland

know the BratNOT's official name by now.

At any rate some folks over on the Honda Pilot Forum don't like the "Pilot" name, and have decided to have their own name contest. Why? I have no idea...

One of the names suggested was "Acrobat," which, when you think about it, would/could be a good name for the Subie—especially if it comes with the switchback mid-gate.

Subaru Acrobat? Not bad...

Bob

ateixeira

They don't flow together, though. Sounds good by itself. What's wrong with Pilot? I'm surprised the name wasn't already used.

Speaking of Honda, for old times' sake I looked at their line of scooters. I owned a 1984 Aero 125 and later a 50cc scooter, both with CVTs.

Their new line is mostly similar, but check out the Reflex, which replaced the Helix. That thing is beautiful, with better styling than any car they've ever made, easily, including the NSX.

Check it out - looks like a MacLaren F1 with two wheels. The exposed drilled disc brakes and 5 spoke alloys look great, and it even has ABS!

Honda ought to get inspiration for car designs (which have been *yawn* boring) from that scooter. What do you think, Bob, from a designer's stand point?

-juice

ateixeira

PS Look at the photo at the beach, which shows it best.

rsholland

(or wished) Honda and other Japanese car companies would be inspired by some of their bikes, especially some of those road rockets.

Other possible inspiration vehicles (for SUVs) are the ATVs that Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki make. Also—don't laugh—farm equipment! I think John Deere and others make some pretty neat-looking stuff.

ATVs, agricultural equipment, and heavy-duty trucks all have a design purity that I really appreciate. They're designed to do a task first, and everything else is secondary. Their looks are more a matter of function, rather than designed to look pretty. To me, that's what good design is all about. Frankly, I think the Mercedes Unimog is one of the best-looking vehicles out there. It is what it is, pure and simple...

Not exactly the answer you were looking for, huh juice? And, yeah, that Reflex Scooter looks pretty neat too.

Bob

ateixeira

There is function in the beauty, and beauty in the function. What do today's cars use as styling elements?

Wheels, sheet metal, and glass, everything else is tacked on.

Now look at the bikes. The fairings are gorgeous, and wrap and protect the body work. The fenders are aggressive and keep the mud where it belongs. The seats and shaped and complete the look on every bike. Windshields are styled, the exhaust plays an integral role - they even photograph the side with the exhaust on those that don't have dual exhausts, just to show them off!

What else? The tires, even, are styled. The brakes are absolutely a show of high technology. The mirrors fit in with each model, and the various lights do, too. Yet all of these are functional elements, not tacked on and useless a la Pontiac.

They even have a retro design - the Metropolitan scooter. Looks sort of like a small Vespa.

Look at the 4 wheelers and you find styled skid plates and even luggage racks that match the body color. The water craft look good standing still.

I say instead of getting these marketing gurus that used to sell toothpaste to run the show, get the guys that design these machines, instead.

-juice

rsholland

<< I say instead of getting these marketing gurus that used to sell toothpaste to run the show, get the guys that design these machines, instead. >>

That's what GM just did by hiring Lutz, and sending their "Brand Manager" back to sell eye glasses, or whatever he did in a previous life.

Bob

fernieguy

I think Subaru has a reputation for designing for function first, that's why people are so loyal to the brand. I also thought we would know more about the STX/Baja by now as well, but everyone is remaining pretty quiet. I think we'll hear stuff when the new car shows start up in the states. If you want to look at vehicles that are built for function just look at the off-road/race bikes put out, everything is purely function cause they are built to be race ready.

that's what I think anyway

Stephen

lark6

I just like saying "Unimog." I had a toy one as a child (mid 1960s) - love the shape of that thing. Saw one driving through our town a few months ago and actually got excited to see it, which confirmed to my wife that I am a nut.

I think that I share paisan's affection for square vehicles - Defender 90s and 110s, IH Scouts and Travelalls, Datsun 510s, BMW 2002s (which are parallelograms, really), FJ60/62 Land Cruisers and, of course, the Forester.

Ed

paisan

Throw in there cressida, nice and boxy!

-mike

lark6

The only Volvos I like stylistically are the P1800s/1800ES and the Amazon (a/k/a 121/122/123GT).

Ed

ateixeira

STX could borrow some of those cues, such as the exposed and functional skid plates, maybe even a color-coordinated roof rack.

When I see something like that, I say, "Looks cool...hey, it functions, too? That's even better!" They impress twice.

Bad example: the XTerra's stylish but wimpy, low capacity, moonroof blocking, roof rack. Good example: the one on the Defenders.

-juice

fernieguy

then ask the company that designs and manufactures what ever you want to build it for you. For example if Subaru really wanted a good roof rack system then they should ask Thule or Yakima, its their job and its what they do best. The roof rack on the X-terra is an example of pure image and not function.

Stephen

fernieguy

for the STX/Baja so aftermarket companies can come up with designs for box caps and covers. Throwing a cap on the next Brat will really change the look of it, and definitely make your vehicle look unique.

Stephen

paisan

I already carry nudge bars for the new Brat/baja! Since I'm the only one who carries nudge bars for the Outbacks it should carry over to the brat/baja see http://www.ecb-usa.com

-mike

goose14

will new forester have power seets-i am getting old and like to change positionswhile driving on long trips to rearrange the pressure on my posterior. Regular seats hard to move while driving and have limited number of postions.

rsholland

about the Xterra's roof rack. It's pure style over substance. It looks like it should hold 500 pounds, yet is rated for only 100 pounds.

To me that's the worst kind of design. It's phony at best, and devious at its worst.

Bob