Yes, I noticed that. The newer ones, like the Explorer and Envoy EXT, have crept up to luxury prices, while others like the JGC and Trooper are value priced.
The 4Runner is sort of the exception to that rule.
The 4Runner has always enjoyed ridiculously high resale value... well, perhaps not always. The first generation with the fiberglass roof wasn't overly successful, but since then they have been.
I have no idea what the sales numbers are-- probably off due to the competition changing and making more HP-- but they still command MSRP in my area.
have been way over priced. I didn't check the MSRPS at the show, but the Toyota rep indicated that 4Runner prices have dropped too.
Yeah, that's what good competition will do. It's no longer a seller's market for some of these brands. Remember when the Trooper first came out? Their prices were also sky-high. Look at them now... I bet the Montero's price will drop too, especially after the CR test.
but you could get pretty close to it. One neat feature is that it has, just behind the driver's door on the outside, a panel, that when opened allowed access to a 8-gallon water tank (for drinking or hosing down the undercarriage) and an air compressor (for airing up tires).
sweet - I'll be sure to fill up my 64mb memory stick with pics of the '03 Legacy. Well, maybe not ALL of it.
I just used the key hole on our Sube the other day (for the first time). I started the OB to let it warm up a bit on Christmas Eve - we were at relatives in Chicago and it was quite chilly (wanted to warm it up a bit for Brooke). Seems you can't use the FOB to unlock the doors if there's a key in the ignition. So, I took out the spare key from my wallet and used that to unlock the doors. Good thing it was in there or I wouldn't have been able to get in!
So, my point is, if the trend is to move to non-key holes, that key-FOBs need to be able to be used at all times, not just when the key isn't in the ignition. And what happens when the battery fails - not the key fob one? How do you get the hood open, not to mention the doors?
I like key holes. If the battery dies, you aren't stuck 100 miles from anywhere without being able to get to your tools in the trunk to change the battery! etc. etc.
But the driver's door still has one as a backup. If you can get inside, you can then open any door.
I wonder, though, do the power locks work if the battery is dead? If not, you would need a keyhole in the hatch to open that.
This topic will get more interesting with all the drive-by-wire technologies coming soon. The question is, how can they keep a mechanical backup for these devices without prohibitive costs?
throttle-by-wire already exists, and there is no mechanical fallback. if something fails, the engine dies. i have some doubts that indirect steering will be coming any time soon, but assisted braking obviously is already here and in some models it is a lot more advanced than simple ABS.
but anyway, heck no power locks won't work if the battery is dead. ;-)
I think the brakes have a mechanical backup, though. Throttle is less of a big deal - you could go to neutral and coast to a stop. Brakes are more serious.
If you don't have a trunk key hole, and you get a dead battery, you won't be able to access the trunk—which some cars have their battery there. That's dumb.
I just went to lunch with a friend today in her Jetta VR6 GLX, and was again impressed with VW's interiors. I know they still have a way to go in terms of reliability, but the quality of the interior materials is impressive. The Jetta is at least as good if not better than the Legacy, and much nicer than the Forester or Impreza line, probably about two steps up from those.
She paid way, way too much for such a compact vehicle, but this may be why people seem more willing to accept a VW priced in near-luxury territory than a Subaru.
The headliner was padded and felt durable, not the mouse fur I have on my Forester. The carpets were much thicker, and the sun visors looked much sturdier.
On the other hand, Subaru wins easily in the ergonomics area, with easier to find controls and a warmer overall feel to the interior. She also paid about $8 grand more than I did, for a FWD sedan, and then any concept of value suddenly disappeared.
CEL's are a major source of customer dissatisfaction and can be very hard to diagnose and repair. They also lead to repeat repairs, lemon law complaints, and vehicle buybacks. A scanner might tell you a code and an area to start, but they can also send you on a wild goose chase.
My '96 Stratus had the battery just in front of the left front tire - yes, in the wheel well. You had to turn the wheels to the right to access the panel to the battery.
The batteries (yes 2 of them) in the previous Aurora were under the rear seat.
Is somewhere under the air-intake in front of the pass wheel. Audis have them in the trunk IIRC. Not sure who else. Either way, A lock cylinder for the trunk and doors is nice and simple rather than a sofisticated electrical gadget.
I do like my drive by wire system on the trooper. No problems with it yet.
So what was the cost? About USD30K? A friend of mine really liked the Jetta as well, until she priced it with the options she wanted. She ended up getting a Legacy GT instead because it was so much more car for the money.
IMO Subaru can skimp out a little on the interiors (in the mid 20K cars), just give me a good AWD system, good reliablity and a decent price.
Both of these issues apply to my '86 Alfa Spider. Battery is in the trunk and the trunk has no keyhole. And I think even worse than an electrical trunk release is, in this case, a mechanical trunk release. It is opened via a cable (like the hood on most cars) attached to a plastic handle (which, by the way, can be locked down with a key!) next to the driver's seat. This handle inevitably breaks over time (as happened to me). I now carry a pair of lockpliers (NOT in the trunk) to grab the cable and pull. So, in this case, I would very much have appreciated a keyhole to open the trunk!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
could the power lock module be fitted with some sort of capacitor that would retain enough power (even with a dead battery) to unlock the doors or trunk, at least 1 time?
I just think back to a 10+ year old car and think to myself "Do I want to deal with electrical nightmares" yep all the cool electrical gadgetry is nice for the first 5-7 years of ownership, but time and time again we have seen how electrical gadgetry has been nothing but problems in the 8-10+ range in a cars lifetime.
On the Yahoo STX message board someone over at the i-club has found out that Subaru has gotten or registered the name subarubaja.com. And one more piece of the puzzle fits into place. My old ford Escort diesel had the battery in the hatch back as well.
is that we'll find out sometime between January 2 and that date. January 7 is the "official" date, but rumors (if not confirmation) will occur the week prior to that date.
I wouldn't be ultimately confident until a website is answering on www.subarubaja.com --my company registers domain names that we *think* we might use, and I'm sure subaru does the same. they've registered SVX and I don't see the teeming masses beating down the door saying that it will relaunch in January.
Just got back from some post-holiday shopping and noticed the following new cars missing keyholes:
Neither having passenger door or truck key holes:
VW Jetta, Volvo Cross Country, Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Missing passenger door key hole only:
BMW 5-Series; Nissan Maxima, Xterra, and Altima. Speaking of new Altimas, I see them everywhere. Nissan clearly has a big hit on their hands.
I must be asleep at the wheel here; this missing key hole thing is clearly an *important* trend I've completely missed. I'll try to do better in the future.;)
I know this has nothing to do with Subaru (except AWD), but has anyone else read Edmunds road test of the Jaguar X-Type??? What a joke. Ford should be ashamed of themselves (again).
Do I take it that the general consensus is that there will be no major changes in the GT lineup for a few years, maybe even till the next new model?? Personally I think they could come out with a 2.5 AVCS with more power for the GT even if they don't bring the B4 over to N America soon. SOA could have a lineup with the regular 2.5 in the OB and Legacy L, the AVCS in the GT and OB LTD and then the H6 as it is and eventually bring over the turbo RSK/GTB.
The '03 Legacy will be shown at the Chicago Auto Show in February. Word has it that it will receive a facelift and some mechanical upgrades. This is a mid-model-life upgrade, since this model was introduced for MY2000, and the next Legacy is due MY2005.
My guess is that whatever changes we'll see, will come from the international corporate parts bin that already exists. It's unlikely that we will see something totally new. It's quite possible we will see new items *packaged* differently from what has been shown before, however. For example: perhaps the H-6 hooked up to the WRX-STi's 6-speed? I'm not saying that particular example will occur. What I am saying is that both the H-6 and 6-speed currently exist—but not hooked up together...
I do think we will see much more change for MY03, than we did for MY01 and MY02. BTW, the Legacy both in Japan and Australia recently received some upgrades. I'm convinced that much of what they got, we'll get; some of which includes new headlights, new flywheel, suspension upgrades, among other things.
It is known that top-of-the-line '03 Outbacks will get GM's OnStar. That's certainly new, at least to Subaru.
Though you were wrong about the RSX, it does indeed have a passenger side lock. I checked the Type S and standard models, both have it. It's back seat is completely useless, and the hatch handle to lower it is backwards. The fake metal trim is no better than the WRX, in fact it really didn't do much for me at all, except the 6 speed.
And I was wrong - I compared Subaru to Honda and Toyota back-to-back, and interior material quality is the same, no better no worse. VW does indeed go a step up from those, but funny enough so does Hyundai and Kia. Yes, the Koreans impressed me, with padded cloth head liners and articulating hinges for the trunk that put the Japanese cars to shame. Only the Passat did this also.
My friend paid 26k for her Jetta. She actually won a 20k VW Beetle in a raffle, and paid 6 grand to upgrade to a Jetta. So VW charges more for the extras, but the Koreans do not.
X type is very sexy in person, but very cozy. Small, actually. X Type was not a match for the luxury of the ES300, not even close.
Borrego was very cool. Big crowds around it. They need a bigger back seat, otherwise I like it. I spoke with the presenter long enough for her to leak some interesting info - Chevy will have a Bel Air concept at Detriot! They want to build it, too. She's going to LA, not Detroit, so they told her about it, since she was going to miss the live debut.
Among the vans, I liked the Odyssey, then the MPV, then the Grand Caravan, then the Sienna, then the Sedona. 1 and 2 are close, the rest are also-rans. This is judging interior only.
LL Bean was nice. Wife may like it. Legacy sedan is too tight. Feels cramped in back, since wifey says space is now a high priority.
Among sedans, Camry and Accord were nice, but nothing special. The ES300 was special, the most comfy back seat I have ever sat in, bar none. Does not feel like a Camry at all, hard to believe. Avalon was roomier and more comfy than Camry in the rear seat. Altima and Maxima were a match for Camry. Tough to choose between all those, they are so similar really.
So I rated those in this order: ES300, LL Bean, TL, Avalon, Camry, Accord, Maxima, Altima, but all pretty close to each other, not big differences. The ES is pricey but you can see where they spent the money.
* Saturn Vue was junk. Awful. The cargo organizer in back was actually broken. Seats are spongy. I think the left rear seat almost made me fall out when I opened the door. Horrible seats. Plasticky interior. Dissapointing.
* Land Rover Freelander was worse than expected. Nice leather and wood, but that's it. Very plasticky, bad ergonomics, bad build quality. Felt like a Kia Sportage with Jaguar's leather and wood. I would not trade one for my Forester, never mind the $10 grand price difference. Carpets were cheap, did not justify the price. Sorry tincup.
* Good surprises were the Koreans. Kia Optima and Hyundai Sonata are actually above the Accord and Camry in the materials used. Now if they get reliability in order and their reputation improves, watch out.
Comments
Bob
The 4Runner is sort of the exception to that rule.
-juice
Bob
I have no idea what the sales numbers are-- probably off due to the competition changing and making more HP-- but they still command MSRP in my area.
-Colin
Yeah, that's what good competition will do. It's no longer a seller's market for some of these brands. Remember when the Trooper first came out? Their prices were also sky-high. Look at them now... I bet the Montero's price will drop too, especially after the CR test.
Bob
4Runner sales are down a bit, but not much, and if you add the Highlander the combined sales are much higher than the 4Runner managed alone.
So apparently the soft-roader and off-roader combination works well. Something for everyone, I guess.
-juice
Bob
I'm going to take a close look at the Borrego. Was it up on a stand, or could you get in it?
-juice
Bob
I'll take a close look. Could you see underneath, the Subaru mechanicals?
-juice
Bob
Bob
I just used the key hole on our Sube the other day (for the first time). I started the OB to let it warm up a bit on Christmas Eve - we were at relatives in Chicago and it was quite chilly (wanted to warm it up a bit for Brooke). Seems you can't use the FOB to unlock the doors if there's a key in the ignition. So, I took out the spare key from my wallet and used that to unlock the doors. Good thing it was in there or I wouldn't have been able to get in!
So, my point is, if the trend is to move to non-key holes, that key-FOBs need to be able to be used at all times, not just when the key isn't in the ignition. And what happens when the battery fails - not the key fob one? How do you get the hood open, not to mention the doors?
-Brian
Right, tincup - there is still the driver's door key hole just in case.
-juice
-mike
I wonder, though, do the power locks work if the battery is dead? If not, you would need a keyhole in the hatch to open that.
This topic will get more interesting with all the drive-by-wire technologies coming soon. The question is, how can they keep a mechanical backup for these devices without prohibitive costs?
-juice
but anyway, heck no power locks won't work if the battery is dead. ;-)
-Colin
-juice
Bob
-juice
Bob
-mike
Batteries in the trunk? Maybe a while ago, but I doubt more than a couple of new cars (sold in any volume) still do this.
-juice
She paid way, way too much for such a compact vehicle, but this may be why people seem more willing to accept a VW priced in near-luxury territory than a Subaru.
The headliner was padded and felt durable, not the mouse fur I have on my Forester. The carpets were much thicker, and the sun visors looked much sturdier.
On the other hand, Subaru wins easily in the ergonomics area, with easier to find controls and a warmer overall feel to the interior. She also paid about $8 grand more than I did, for a FWD sedan, and then any concept of value suddenly disappeared.
-juice
I guess you could just get an OBD2 scanner.
-juice
I'm about to buy an OBDII scanner myself.
-Colin
The batteries (yes 2 of them) in the previous Aurora were under the rear seat.
-Brian
I do like my drive by wire system on the trooper. No problems with it yet.
-mike
A friend of mine really liked the Jetta as well, until she priced it with the options she wanted. She ended up getting a Legacy GT instead because it was so much more car for the money.
IMO Subaru can skimp out a little on the interiors (in the mid 20K cars), just give me a good AWD system, good reliablity and a decent price.
-Dennis
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
-Brian
-mike
Stephen
Unless it was registered only as a possibility or an attempt to fool people. :-)
-dennis
Bob
http://www.naias.com/main.asp?sectionID=20&visitorType=1
-Dennis
Bob
-mike
-Colin
Bob
-Colin
Neither having passenger door or truck key holes:
VW Jetta, Volvo Cross Country, Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Missing passenger door key hole only:
BMW 5-Series; Nissan Maxima, Xterra, and Altima. Speaking of new Altimas, I see them everywhere. Nissan clearly has a big hit on their hands.
I must be asleep at the wheel here; this missing key hole thing is clearly an *important* trend I've completely missed. I'll try to do better in the future.;)
Jon
Personally I think they could come out with a 2.5 AVCS with more power for the GT even if they don't bring the B4 over to N America soon. SOA could have a lineup with the regular 2.5 in the OB and Legacy L, the AVCS in the GT and OB LTD and then the H6 as it is and eventually bring over the turbo RSK/GTB.
My guess is that whatever changes we'll see, will come from the international corporate parts bin that already exists. It's unlikely that we will see something totally new. It's quite possible we will see new items *packaged* differently from what has been shown before, however. For example: perhaps the H-6 hooked up to the WRX-STi's 6-speed? I'm not saying that particular example will occur. What I am saying is that both the H-6 and 6-speed currently exist—but not hooked up together...
I do think we will see much more change for MY03, than we did for MY01 and MY02. BTW, the Legacy both in Japan and Australia recently received some upgrades. I'm convinced that much of what they got, we'll get; some of which includes new headlights, new flywheel, suspension upgrades, among other things.
It is known that top-of-the-line '03 Outbacks will get GM's OnStar. That's certainly new, at least to Subaru.
Bob
Though you were wrong about the RSX, it does indeed have a passenger side lock. I checked the Type S and standard models, both have it. It's back seat is completely useless, and the hatch handle to lower it is backwards. The fake metal trim is no better than the WRX, in fact it really didn't do much for me at all, except the 6 speed.
And I was wrong - I compared Subaru to Honda and Toyota back-to-back, and interior material quality is the same, no better no worse. VW does indeed go a step up from those, but funny enough so does Hyundai and Kia. Yes, the Koreans impressed me, with padded cloth head liners and articulating hinges for the trunk that put the Japanese cars to shame. Only the Passat did this also.
My friend paid 26k for her Jetta. She actually won a 20k VW Beetle in a raffle, and paid 6 grand to upgrade to a Jetta. So VW charges more for the extras, but the Koreans do not.
X type is very sexy in person, but very cozy. Small, actually. X Type was not a match for the luxury of the ES300, not even close.
Borrego was very cool. Big crowds around it. They need a bigger back seat, otherwise I like it. I spoke with the presenter long enough for her to leak some interesting info - Chevy will have a Bel Air concept at Detriot! They want to build it, too. She's going to LA, not Detroit, so they told her about it, since she was going to miss the live debut.
Among the vans, I liked the Odyssey, then the MPV, then the Grand Caravan, then the Sienna, then the Sedona. 1 and 2 are close, the rest are also-rans. This is judging interior only.
LL Bean was nice. Wife may like it. Legacy sedan is too tight. Feels cramped in back, since wifey says space is now a high priority.
Among sedans, Camry and Accord were nice, but nothing special. The ES300 was special, the most comfy back seat I have ever sat in, bar none. Does not feel like a Camry at all, hard to believe. Avalon was roomier and more comfy than Camry in the rear seat. Altima and Maxima were a match for Camry. Tough to choose between all those, they are so similar really.
So I rated those in this order: ES300, LL Bean, TL, Avalon, Camry, Accord, Maxima, Altima, but all pretty close to each other, not big differences. The ES is pricey but you can see where they spent the money.
-juice
* Saturn Vue was junk. Awful. The cargo organizer in back was actually broken. Seats are
spongy. I think the left rear seat almost made me fall out when I opened the door. Horrible seats. Plasticky interior. Dissapointing.
* Land Rover Freelander was worse than expected. Nice leather and wood, but that's it. Very plasticky, bad ergonomics, bad build quality. Felt like a Kia Sportage with Jaguar's leather and wood. I would not trade one for my Forester, never mind the $10 grand price difference. Carpets were cheap, did not justify the price. Sorry tincup.
* Good surprises were the Koreans. Kia Optima and Hyundai Sonata are actually above the Accord and Camry in the materials used. Now if they get reliability in order and their reputation improves, watch out.
-juice