Subaru Crew - Modifications II

hondafriek

Now that I am a Sube owner I have to defend the Marque.

Cheers Pat.

barresa62

I have to check in w/the insanely desireable WRX (wagon and sedan). Because I love to "drive", I wouldn't trade my WRX wagon back for my OB Ltd wagon for one second.

PS: No slam against OB's .... :-)

On another note, I got my speeding ticket (you remember, 39 in a 30 zone) deferred for 6mos. If I don't get another ticket in this timeframe then it doesn't go on my driving record. It cost $50 though. Still less the $71 ticket. Did I mention I love "driving". :-)

Stephen

kate5000

ateixeira

No, that's probably PBJ.

Peunut butter and jelly?

No, probation before judgement. Don't ask how I know! The $50 covers court costs (i.e. the judge's next oil change for his S class). Fair enough.

-juice

francophile

J = juice? Heh heh.

Anyway, move out here to the boondocks, juice. The judges don't drive Mercs here, they drive tractors and Subies and stuff just like regular folks.

Cheers,
-wdb

mwwst

Bit -Yeah, I downloaded the cd changer instructions last week -thanks.

Juice - the head unit is coming out of a Forester. I called Crutchfield and verified that the Legacy and Forester require the same harness so I'm all set.

Hondafriek - Legacy GT is absolutely the sleeper in the Subaru Lineup! I've driven the Outback, Forester and GT. Each drives differently and and I think suites a different type of person. I personnally like to push a vehicle a little bit so the tighter suspension of the GT is an obvious benefit for me. But unlike an Outback or Forester, I don't think I would take the GT on anything beyond a well graded dirt road.

Last note - my wife drives a '00 Saab 9-5 wagon. Although I would consider the Saab a much more refined vehicle (for $10k more, it should be), I actually like the handling of the Subaru better - much tighter during hard cornering and better feel for the road. Not to mention the AWD adds confidence that you don't get with just having stability control.

If there is anyone debating a SAAB vs a Subaru (is it possible?), I'd be glad to answer any questions.

MWWST

originalbitman

The harness in the dash that you will be plugging into has two nearly identical connectors. One for the receiver and the other for the in-dash changer. I mistakenly plugged my receiver in my 00 GT into the changer wiring. I could never figure out why the receiver stayed on for a few seconds after I turned the ignition off. Seemed odd but at times convenient. Everything else worked fine. But when I did the install in my 01 I realized what happened. This time I got the right connector and it works normal. I would guess the power delay let the change "park" some of its components.

bit

hondafriek

I have far too much OCB (obsessive compulsive behaviour) to be taking my GT even remotely off road, after having driven on dirt road the coating of dust all over the car drives me insane until I can get it washed.

Cheers Pat.

lucien2

well they're both Swedish, right? ;-))

ateixeira

Just bustin' a judge's chops. My brother's, that is. I tease him about wearing a dress to work every day! :-)

But he drives a Chevy Vectra, in Brazil, because there is no Opel. It's a non-watered down Saturn LS, basically.

MWWST: actually, Saab and Soob owners seemed to get along when we joined forces for a covered bridge tour. Check out some photos.

-juice

kens

I just read a post by a Forester owner in i-club that QSubaru is still open. He recently spoke with Darlene on the phone -- they're open for business!

Ken

locke2c

You must be pretty excited about it Ken... posted it in every forum it seems like. ;-)

-Colin

barresa62

No, I went to arbirtration hearing first (nothing more than sitting at someone's cubicle and relaying my "sad" story. I was in and out (payment and all) in about 15mins!

Stephen

kens

Yeah, kind of went out of control there... ;-)
Hey, I was happy!
Ken

lucien2

ditched the little AWD badge off the GT today. Really cleans up the trunk lid. Plus it was gold, and the Legacy and 2.5GT badges are silver, so there is more color continuity now..

Now if I could only figure out what is wrong with the stereo I'd be set.

locke2c

Eh? What's the symptoms?

-Colin

lucien2

Well it plays just fine, then cuts off after a while. we can drive around for days with the raio on and no sound, then, bam, it comes back. for 10 minutes. Then gone again. I know the previous owner put a crossover in the door and an amp under the seat. the amp looks o.k., all Monster Cable and $h*t. The head unit appears to be functioning; antenna goes up and down, lil' spinning disc icon spinning, I can hear it whirring, all lights are GO. I took the door apart to try and get to the crossover, but the thing came back on! Fine, looked like I was in over my head anyway, so back goes the door panel. I swear to you, no sooner did I replace the last screw cap then it cut out again. it is so random, and the periods of silence so long, ti defies any tech explanation I can come up with. Maybe I just need to get a new head...

kens

Finally got my re-worked shifter from Kartboy last night!

Kartboy esentially created a Kartboy shifter with a longer shifter arm for my Forester. The regular Kartboy turned out to be too short for the Forester's seating position so they kindly offered to create a new shifter for me.

The modified Kartboy retains the same fulcrum length as the Kartboy so it has short, firm throws but the lever is long enough so that I'm not doing arm stretches to shift. The overall feel, IMO is a huge improvement over the stock shifter.

Ken

kameele

I'm no stereo expert, so here's my uneducated guess. Have you checked any connections on the amp? Do you have access to the speaker outputs that you could hook directly to the head unit? It seems to be doing what it's supposed to but not getting out an audio signal. I might suspect a heat sensitive component in the amp, but they don't usually take two days to cool down and work again.

Another hypothesis might be a pinched speaker wire that gets knocked loose for short periods.

Like I said, all uneducated guesses, but that's where I might start if I was looking at my own car.

Good luck--electrical problems are fun (in a very perverted way)

Kevin

locke2c

Loosh... I'd pull it all out and re-install. I bet you find some bad wiring rather than any components physically defective.

Ken, congrats! I will be installing the too-short-for-Forester shifter this evening. ;-)

-Colin

kens

Colin,

Cool! Let me know how you like the Kartboy. Hey, your Impreza and my Forester will be shifter-lever grease brothers.

Ken

hondafriek

I totally agree with Colin, sounds like a bad connection somewhere to me, the easiest route would be to pull it out and reinstall.

Cheers Pat.

locke2c

Oh, and if you do reinstall... try making a new ground for the receiver and not using the ground built into the factory radio harness. I've often found this is a great way to cut down on inducted noise.

-Colin

lucien2

Colin and Pat- I ain't looking forward to this, as I know nothing about crossovers, and he buried 'em in the door somewhere. He left the clear plastic behind...looks like he unscrewed the inner door metal cage even. Then again, I HATE the way the Sony head sounds-- all bass and highs, no mids, and no eq to fix it. Beastie Boys sound great (especially that sub), but acoustic intrument heavy music sounds awful. No subtle finger and string noise, all the mids are buried. I can't just drive around listening to rap and techno all day, and Wilco and Jayhawks DO NOT get along with this system. SO, I may just re-install it all, but with a more natural sounding set up (prolly Blau). then again, I guess it could be how he had the amp set up, huh? roll offs and such?

Sorry, I am a musician; I don't know diddly about consumer stereo stuff...

locke2c

Loosh, the sound (or lack thereof) that you speak of is probably the speakers' fault, not the receiver. Line noise is a bad thing and can make any speaker sound badly, but if you want strings to come alive and cymbals to crash, you need new front speakers.

Hmmm... on a budget I recommend Memphis (formerly Fultron). IMO very good sound for relatively small $. Much better than something you'd find at Best Buy and comparably priced.

-Colin

lucien2

He's got something called Power Acoustic or something at all 4 corners plus a tweeter kit. there isn't any line noise I can tell (well, ain't no noise at all right now ), it just sounds like bad factory EQ settings. I could be wrong. If you think it is the speakers, I'll go after those. He altered the mounts pretty heavily to get the speakers he wanted on the car. Not the approach I would have taken, but I have to work with what I have now.

bigfrank3

If it sounds like bad EQ settings I would spend some time on how and where he did the crossovers. He may have inadvertantly filtered out or severely attenuated the mid frequencies.

Regards,
Frank

hypov

What's the difference(s) between a 'Supercharger' from a 'Turbocharger'?... and the pros/cons between the two?
The question has bugged me the longest time since reading 'bout the then concept ST-X with the supercharged 2.5l.
TIA

bigfrank3

Both a supercharger and a turbocharger increase the intake charge pressure, packing more into each cylinder. The difference is that a supercharger is driven off of the engine, usually with a belt, and this costs some horsepower to operate it. A turbo is almost free energy because it is driven by exhaust gas turning an impeller, which is connected to another impeller with a different ratio on the intake side. Very similar to a water wheel. The turbo does cause some restriction in the exhaust so that is why it is not entirely free.

They have different characteristics due to their operating nature. A supercharger is always creating pressure and its power increase is "instant on", while a turbo needs to "spool up" before it creates pressure. This "dead area" in response is what is know as "turbo lag".

Manufacturers have made the impellers lighter to let them accelerate their mass easier, and spin faster to try and put them closer to "spooled up", but they still can't match the instant torque from a supercharged motor. I had a Mitsubishi turbo on a Dodge that spun at 180K RPM, but it still had too much lag for my taste.

Motors that have turbos or superchargers usually have lower compression ratios because of the higher pressures provided by the device. This exacerbates the "turbo lag" because before it "spools" you are stuck with the lower pressure which doesn't "squeeze" much power out of the cylinder mixture.

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Frank

hammersley

I'm just now "window shopping" for a new head & speakers... new speakers first (most bang for the improvement buck, or so I've been told). While I appreciate a lot of bass & the treble as well, I hate to lose the midrange stuff in the process... you think Blaupunkt fits that bill well, as opposed to other, too-numerous-to-mention brands?

Cheers!
Paul

hypov

Frank,
Thanks for the explanation, it does help and sure beats the hours of searches I went through and not finding the answer (guess I was looking in all the wrong places - sounds like a song).

Now, I wonder if Patti has the number for those guys that configurated the ST-X's power plant.

Cheers
hypov (aka another Dave)

locke2c

Actually a turbocharger is not completely free. When it's not making positive boost, it is in fact nothing less than a big restriction in the exhaust. This does not promote good cylinder scavenging, leading to worsened economy and performance, yadda yadda yaddda.

Compared to a supercharger though, it's "free".

-Colin

rsholland

One way around the dreaded turbo lag is to have a 2-stage twin turbo. Subaru employs this method on home-market turbo Legacys.

As the name would imply, you have two turbos. One is designed to operate at low - mid rpm, and the other kicks in for high rpm. The idea is to get the two turbos to overlap a bit, so that there is no, or very little, turbo lag.

This is the ideal set up, but also the most costly.

Bob

bigfrank3

Colin - Isn't that what I said?
"A turbo is almost free energy because it is driven by exhaust gas turning an impeller, which is connected to another impeller with a different ratio on the intake side. Very similar to a water wheel. The turbo does cause some restriction in the exhaust so that is why it is not entirely free."

Bob - Another approach is the "variable vane" turbos, where the vanes close up at low RPM but open up at high RPM. Kind of like 2 turbos in one. Saab also did some tricks with a small turbo and a lot of electronic management. Made driveability better at low and mid RPM, but didn't have much at the top.

Maybe it's because I grew up with big-block torque, but I find turbos only fun when you have your foot in it and you keep the turbo spooled up, no fun when not "playing". I like to have what I call "tickle torque", where you move the gas pedal a little and you get instant forward response (high gain). Anything they do with turbos, twin or otherwise, is only to make the response more like a supercharger. Makes me wish they would just bite the bullet and switch. They can never make a turbo "positive displacement", so there will always be some compromise.

Regards,
Frank

rsholland

I know Volvo offers a low-boost turbo and high boost turbo. I haven't driven either, but my impression is that the low-boost version is designed to give you power at low-mid rpm, whereas the high-boost version give power at mid-high rpm.

Subaru offers a 2.0 turbo on the Forester in other markets. My impression is that it is a low-boost version of the WRX engine.

Bob

francophile

I can't remember exactly where I read it, but somewhere I saw that the ST-X show car motor was, ummm, less than completely sorted. It was something about it not even running well enough to be driven on/off the trailer or somesuch. (This isn't unusual in concept cars BTW - lots of them are meant to be shown only, not actually driven.)

So I wouldn't be in a rush to go find the outfit that did the conversion -- unless you're volunteering to be the guinea pig :-)

Cheers,
-wdb

hypov

learning from your enlightenment, am I correct to understand that the supercharge is more a complete system versus the turbocharge. By complete I mean hp & torque is readily available from low-mid-high range of the rpm.

wdb - Can't hurt dreaming of a supercharged 2.5l (230 hp 210 lb/ft) on my 3230 lbs. '98 OB. Anyway, I'm not too in a hurry to bring fantasy into reality*, especially when I know so little of the systems - heck, I know zilch 'bout engines. Just like to learn from those guys, if I could, what goes into their concept (design and configuration).

*After all, I still have about 2 years more before the drivetrain warranty says "ta ta". By then, hey who knows what we'll have out there or what I'll decide to do then. At my pace of driving, my '98 Outback Ltd. will probably be about 40K comes 2003 which is still alot of car left.

francophile

hypov, superchargers make more boost at higher RPMs vs lower RPMs just like turbos. Each has its advantages and its tradeoffs. Superchargers place a drain on an engine via the (usually belt) drive, and they do so ALL the time, not only when you have your foot in it. So they hurt fuel mileage. Turbos have lag, unless you go with a teeny turbo, in which case you don't get much go-juice above midrange RPMs -- unless you go with 2 turbos (or variable vanes), which adds complexity. Yada yada yada ;-)

As with most things there are compromises, and compromise is an art.

Cheers,
-wdb

ateixeira

I think SoA gave up on the supercharger when they had to push the ST-X around behind the show stand. There were even photos floating around.

Ken: LOL - grease brothers!

-juice

hypov

there goes the dream cloud.
Thanks guys. Y'all've been a well/wealth of knowledge.

locke2c

Frank, it was 1:30am when I posted so... um, yep you did mention that. ;-)

-Colin

p0926

Frank- Excellent post on the differences. The only thing you missed was the MPG angle but then WDB covered that.

One thing I'd like to know, why is it that the turbo seems to be a far more popular choice with the auto manufacturers?

-Frank P.

bluesubie

It was me that posted the pushing the ST-X link. If we had a decent search engine here, you could find it.

hypov Dave, I've heard every possible rumor about which engine the ST-X will get. N/A 4, H6, Turbo 4, S/C 4.

Anyway, here are some people pushing the ST-X.

 http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20010122-1-009459.html

For some good reading on how engines (and other things) work, check out http://www.howstuffworks.com/

Dennis

paisan

Actually don't most of the more powerful engine options from GM come through SCing their 3.8l V6 engine? (bonneville, Park-avenue, oldsmobile, regal, etc?)

-mike

ateixeira

Frank: maybe consumers like to feel the punch turbos can provide, to know it's working?

Also, supercharger whine can be annoying, while a turbo bleeding off pressure when you shift sounds cool.

Yes, GM makes a great torque pig in the 3.8l SC engine.

-juice

lark6

I've driven the s/c Buick Regal GS and came away impressed by the drivetrain's surprising power. Probably the best-handling Buick I've ever driven. My experience with GM build quality (especially electricals, cheap/nasty/ill-fitting trim, and their notorious water pumps) would keep me away. I imagine this crew's fear of GM infiltration of FHI/Subaru stems from that. Still Buick has built more s/c cars than anyone and maybe that technology can be passed along to Subaru successfully.

I've also had the pleasure of driving a s/c 1963 Studebaker Avanti R2. Given the technology that thing was scary fast, with emphasis on the scary.

Ed

ateixeira

I imagine that big blower would be too much of a leach on such a small engine. Gas mileage would tank.

But something similar, scaled down, maybe.

-juice

lark6

Yes, my thoughts exactly. Scale down the s/c for the EJ20 and EJ25.

Ed

hypov

Dennis,
Remembering a saying from my Principal in school, "education does not end when you leave, it begins".
Thanks for the "howstuffworks" lead.
The "push" pics too.

ateixeira

Did he mean noone learned anything? ;-)

-juice