Waxes and Polishes, Part III

mznmzn Member Posts: 727
If you've missed part II, please click here.

Let the sharing of advice & experience continue!

carlady/roving host
«13456711

Comments

  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    Graphicguy,
    Love it! Your cat actually attacked the screen! I'll have to try it too. My car is the Honda Accord '98 EX V6 Coupe in Emerald Green. 'Have a friend who has a GTP, and I've posted in related topics. The GTP is a great car and its performance ability is underrated by most magazines. 'Don't know why. I love my Coupe and my wife loves the size, but I'd never 'dis the GTPs. If you want better performance, go GTP.

    Gus & mzm,
    I know you have to create a third 'topic' for this subject due to large number of postings. But there should be a way to list all topics in descending order. After all, the most active topics are what generate interest in Edmunds Town Hall, and should be the easiest to get to. It is a real pain to have to drill down to the end of a forum list.
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    pblevine-

    I THINK there is a way to control the order of the topics on the topic page by clicking at the top of the column???? Don't you just placemark the topics and go to them from there? It's a lot easier then going to all the topics until you find the ones you want. There's a "help" section at the bottom of this list, but I don't know if it was ever updated from the "old" Edmunds. It might explain how to rearrange the topic list.

    fastdriver
  • newwestdnewwestd Member Posts: 157
    I just bookmark the current page of a topic (such as this one), and keep all the topic bookmarks in a separate bookmark folder. The next time I open it, it takes me to the most current page. I never go to the home page and scroll through lists.
  • tthomas2tthomas2 Member Posts: 5
    It's possible I'm being a little retentive , but I've yet to find a satisfactory treatment for the exterior of my windshield. I'm looking for the following qualities:

    I want rain to bead.
    I do not want a mark at the end of the wiper travel (point of wiper direction reversal).
    I want the wipers to run smoothly and quietly.
    I would like the treatment to last.

    My personal experiences are:
    Rain-X: Great until the second rain at which point the wipers began to chatter terribly. It's fun to drive and watch the rain blow off the windshield. "Almost" don't need the wipers.

    Zaino (Z2/Z5 polish): Leaves a haze behind the wiper blades during wiper operation. This is tolerable until I have to deal with oncoming headlights. Accumulates a streak at the wiper reversal point. Beads nicely outside of the wiper travel area.

    Zaino Z-12 glass polish: This really cleaned the glass. The improved clarity was noticeable. Unfortunately, the rain flattened out and did not bead at all. This wasn't all bad but I much prefer to watch "beaded" raindrops get pushed off the windshield. I doesn't look as nice while parked in the rain either.

    Has anybody found a better treatment without the downside of those I have tried?
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    tthomas2-

    Have you tried the Z-6??

    fastdriver
  • putter5putter5 Member Posts: 12
    Next time you buy a car tell the dealer "No dealer badging" and have them put it on the sales order. Also advise them it OK if they will give you a $200 advertising fee. License plate w/ dealers name is OK as you can discard it
  • ejyejy Member Posts: 62
    I told my dealer that if they put those ugly badges on my car it would be $1,000 a year for me to advertize for them. They left them off. Advertizing is not cheap!

    I graciously accepted license plate frames. It's too bad NY is a '2 plate state'. They used machine screws and burrowed them right into my front bumper :{ For more, turn to Sportscars- topic 57...
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    'Kinda sounds like a law firm name!

    Fastdriver,
    Thanks. I try the bookmarks.

    tthomas2,
    fastdriver has a good suggestion: Z6. I tried a variation with good results. First, I applied Z12 Glass Polish. And rubbed like crazy as it did leave a filmmy residue. So I then used Windex to remove the Z12 residue. Just be a little careful as Windex will remove Zaino Z2 from the car. Just spray it on a paper towel or old newspaper, and then use the wet towel directly against the outside windshield glass. When you're done, you should have a squeeky clean windshield. I also clean my wiper blades as the thin rubber material builds up dirt quickly. And finally, apply Zaino Z-6 to the windshield and wipe off. Just as fastdriver suggested. It will fill in those microscopic pits in the glass, allow water to bead, and give you an extra clean view.

    ejy,
    Yeah, I too felt funny about having the dealer's logo on my license frames. I took the front frame off, removed the frame's front cover (with the dealer name) and put it back with four solid bolts rather than the two it came with. The whole thing had been loose. Just remember to use brass bolts and regular sheet metal steel will rust out quickly.
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    To all-

    I found that if I apply the Z-12 with a DAMP towel, it works better, goes on easier and is easier to rub on the glass. Then I use the Z-6.

    Try it, you'll like it!

    fastdriver
  • tthomas2tthomas2 Member Posts: 5
    Fastdriver, pblevine,

    Thanks for the suggestions, I'll give it a try. it hadn't occurred to me to use the Z6 on "bare" (but very clean) glass.

    Terry
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    tthomas2-

    AND........don't forget that you can use it on your computer screen and TV screens! Great job! Try it.

    fastdriver
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    Re: Z6 applications

    Do you do Windows too? :)
  • mznmzn Member Posts: 727
    Yes, you can resort the topic listing so that you see the most active topics first.

    The default is to order the topics by number. You can override this by clicking on "Last Post" on the main conference page. Your list will then show you the topics in the order of newest posting within a topic.

    You can also sort by Topic Title, New, or Number of Posts. I hope this helps.

    carlady/roving host
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    pblevine-

    LOL..... No, I have someone come and do that! However, I bet it would do a great job if you used the Z-12 first. WHY wouldn't it work especially on the side of the house that always seems to get hit with rain the hardest.

    fastdriver
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,003
    Accoard V6 EX... very nice car. The emerald green in gorgeous on it. It was on my shopping list, too when I was about to buy (as was BMW 3 series, Acura TL and numerous other cars).

    I came within a hair of buying the Accord EX V6 except I was seduced by the power of the GTP. Different cars...both very good at what they do...both offer a lot of car for the $.

    I find that washing with Z1 and applying Z6 to the windshiled does the trick. Is there that much of a difference with Z12?
    2021 Acura TLX A-Spec-Platinum White Pearl
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    mzm,
    I'll give the reverse order option a try. Thanks again for stopping by ('roving') and your good advice.

    fastdriver,
    One of the programmers here has a door sign which reads: "I do Windows". 'Think I'll give him a spare bottle of Z-6.

    graphicguy,
    The GTP certainly has power. I took it from a standing start up a big hill with curves. Very impressive! The Z12 polish will remove those very hard to get films of dirt and plastic residue. The kind that normally require much rubbing with Windex. It's very good for interior glass and windows which accumulate that damn plastic 'curing' residue. Its less effective on the outside glass, but you can really see the difference. Did you really mean Z1 before Z6 or was it the car washing concentrate?
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,003
    I meant the car wash concentrate first then Z6. I get my "Z" numbers confused regularly.

    My only fear with Z12 is I've heard mixed reviews on the ability to get it on and off without a lot of work (OK, I'm lazy). I still use glass cleaner or water and vinegar with newspaper. This works well initially, but as you pointed out, as the inside plastics "cure", the streaks come back. I'm still looking for the "miracle" solution to keep the windows from showing streaks within a few days of cleaning them. Maybe I'll just have to settle for the fact that there just isn't a cure for this problem.

    I read all the claims of different window cleaning products, none has performned to my satisfaction, yet.
    2021 Acura TLX A-Spec-Platinum White Pearl
  • pat455pat455 Member Posts: 603
    I'm curious as to whether you have tried Eagle 20/20 glass cleaner. I've read glowing reports, but have never tried it myself.

    Pat
    Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
  • tom3ktom3k Member Posts: 91
    [Havent been here for a couple of weeks, so I'm catching up]

    Dealer badge was on the when I arrived. It was not the car I ordered (the one I ordered did not come in for 3 more weeks). Removed badge successfully with absolutely no damage. It looks like it was never there.

    I Zainoed my 2000 Odyssey, and the water indeed beads, but differently from any other wax or polish I've used. The stuff actualy appears, to repel water. It sheets off so fast, that the car remains virtually dry! It really only collects in the flat spots (roof, back bumper).
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,003
    Thanks for the suggestion. No, I haven't used the Eagle 20/20. I've seen it, but haven't given it a try.

    I used to use the Eagle car wax (Wet Look) and liked it. That is, before I discovered Zaino.

    Anyone here use the Eagle 20/20 on their windows?
    2021 Acura TLX A-Spec-Platinum White Pearl
  • dharmabumdharmabum Member Posts: 20
    Ok so everyone seems so sold on Zaino brothers I went to their web site to see about prices/ordering. I click on every option and I am getting a 404 error/url not found. Is there a problem with their web site? I went to zainobros.com Also is this the only place you can buy their products?
  • tthomas2tthomas2 Member Posts: 5
    Dharmabum,

    Try http://www.zainobros.com again. I just perused the site and all appears well. They must have just put up a new web site because it is completely different. Much nicer. I suspect you were trying to visit the web site as they were bringing the new pages online.
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    tthomas2-

    The new ZAINO site is terrific! It's about time Sal put up some pics of what the cars look like after using Zaino. That alone should help to convince the "doubting Thomas's" out there!

    I just got finished doing my cousin's BMW 2-seater BLACK convertible! It's AWESOME looking now!! I thought that the ZAINO looked terrific on my Candy Apple Red 300M, but on black it's ten times better!

    IF there is any room left in my free Geocities account, I post some pics of it!

    fastdriver
  • tthomas2tthomas2 Member Posts: 5
    Hey Fastdriver,

    Careful with those euphemisms. I have no doubt it's the best polish *I've* ever used;-)

    TT
  • dharmabumdharmabum Member Posts: 20
    Thanks, you were right. Am checking it out now and all seems in order :)
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    tthomas2-

    LOL.... I was going to put a ;-)) after that, but thought I'd wait to see what you would say!! LOL...

    fastdriver
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    Yeah, it really looks good. And the pictures are just great! awesome. I think they're still making changes because when I first accessed it, my I.E. browser had some problems. Some panels were being overwritten. But it seems sound now.
    And I like the new 'application' section too.
  • rcagateprcagatep Member Posts: 3
    Just got my Ody 2000. After washing my car, i tried to clean my windshield with windex. All it it did to my glass windshield is a water spots that is hard to remove. Any suggestions outhere w/o buying a Zaino products.
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    Zaino Glass Polish will do the trick. You can order it directly or by mail from: www.zainobros.com. While you are waiting, however, try the following:

    - Use Windex and rub with some old (crumbled up) newspaper, and then wash with Windex again.

    - Use a 'Vinegar based product on the windshield.

    - Use (last resort only) Dawn dishwashing liquid. This will help get rid of older waxes and plastic vapor based films.

    - Also order Z6 (Gloss Enhancer). Does wonders for windows.
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    Carcareonline.com recommends a window cleaner made by Wurth. Believe it to be alcohol based. My perception is for auto glass an alcohol based window cleaner is better than an ammonia based cleaner. If a regular cleaner won't get the glass to your satisfaction then you'll need some glass polish which there are lots to chose from including the Zaino product mentioned above.
  • GischpelGischpel Member Posts: 133
    I had some stuff stuck to my windshield a while back and ended up trying my Clay Magic (Blue) on it. It cleaned it all off and then I used Rain X on it again.

    Might be worth trying if you have clay available.

    Terry
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    I've used clay to remove tree sap spots from my windshield. Since I was claying the whole car for those damn tree sap spots, I thought I'd do the windows too. And it worked very well. I normally use some Z6 to clean my windshield.
  • wordvoyagewordvoyage Member Posts: 9
    Have a new Beetle GLX,(GREAT CAR)dark blue metallic and today was preparing to clay the car and use the Zaino products when noticed a dull looking scuff mark about the size of a half-dollar on the right rear fender between the gas cap and wheel.It's very dull looking(almost like the clear coat was scuffed or not applied correctly)I did not notice first time I wash the car,but it was most likely there.Almost sure happened before delivery,(three weeks ago)You cannot see it but from certain directions and light reflections.Before claying I tried a little Z-5 and it helped a little,but after claying still there.Tomorrow will start the Zaino procedures.Does anyone have any idea what it could be and how to to get rid of it..I know no one else will notice it,but it's my new baby and I'll know it's there..Thanks for any help
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,003
    Could be that the clearcoat was applied unevenly, causing the dull, scuff look. Does it look scratched or just dull?

    Best bet would be to take it back to the dealer and tell them about the mark and see what they say. In all probability, they will try to say that you put it on the car. Take it to an independent body shop and ask them if it is misapplied clear coat (preferably in writing) and show that to the dealer.

    Z5 won't replace what's not there (like clearcoat). If it truly is a scuff mark, you may have to buff it out with a polishing compound (3M polishing pad may work).
    2021 Acura TLX A-Spec-Platinum White Pearl
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    I'll also agree with graphicguy that it 'could' be a problem with the original application of the clearcoat. I'd also take it to a good body shop/ detail shop. It is possible that a little buffing followed by another application of clearcoat may do the trick. Zaino products are truly wonderful but can only protect a well prepared finish.

    Also, you may try asking advice from Sal Zaino via their website (www.zainobros.com). He's the real expert in these matters. Let us all know how it turns out.
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    If the polish helped a little it most likely is not a paint defect, but in fact a scuff made by something hitting your car (maybe the prep guys scuffed it with a hose when filling your car up). Just keep working the area with polish until its gone. A little at a time is better than trying to do it all at once. The clay won't remove a scuff mark so just be patient and careful with the polish.
  • jabjab Member Posts: 4
    Hey people, how does one wash a car in the winter, i have heard of dry washes and seen people use just a bucket, but what do you do to wash in the winter, i use the zaino method in warm weather and this is 1st winter using it. I have 4 coats of z2 on my car and 4 coats on my wife's car, thanks last did mine from scratch b4 thanksgiving and hers at the end of sept.
  • wordvoyagewordvoyage Member Posts: 9
    Thanks guys for the imput.Yesterday,After I posted the message and looked again,I think it's a dull mark and maybe could be a clear coat imperfection and not a scuff mark from something/someone hitting it.Actually,today I really could not see it(was in garage using Z1,Z5)Like I said,its really not very noticeable and can only see under certain light and directions.I may try to buff out myself(very carefully)using a wax for that purprose..Or if still not satisfied ask dealer.Maye I'll ask dealer before do anything.The claying went very well
    yesterday;very easy, using lots of lub.I got very little if anything off the cat,but was glad I did for felt more secure the car was clean and really for the rest of the Zaino.Today applied the Z1 and Z5.It's almost dry now ,four hours later and will wait till tomorrow to wipe down.Was afraid of applying too much,but think was OK(After all the post in here about that was paranoid HA!).I did notice after applying the Z1 was hard to tell car was polished,but Sal's directions said very thin applications.However, after Z5 application more noticeable.Now the car has a slight haze to it.
  • shomanshoman Member Posts: 97
    jab,
    First, never use those "dry" car wash products on your car unless it is perfectly clean to begin with. Some claim to "encapsulate" dirt and prevent scratches, but most dirt contains silicates or put another way...sand or glass! These particles have sharp edges, and no amount of product can keep them from cutting your paint if you rub it with a cloth using a dry wash. Even the most careful regular wash will leave some tiny scratches in the paint as it's impossible to completely remove the dirt/sand with any sort of cloth or even pressure sprays and not have it come back into contact with the surface, no matter how good you are or what product you use. If you keep a good coat of wax, then only the wax will get the damage. Use lots of clean sudsy water, a clean soft wash mitt and rinse it often in clean water.
    As for how to wash in the winter, it's more important to get the crud (especially salt) off the car than worry about a few minor scratches in the wax or even the paint. If you can't wash it like normal, or borrow a heated space, then take it to a good and trusted detail shop once in a while.
    Also, while high pressure car washes and full service car washes will always do some damage to paint, they are better alternatives than letting salt and accumulated dirt stay on your car for weeks on end. Again, if you have put on a good coat of your favorite wax and it's doing it's job, it will take the hit instead of your paint for the most part.
    Try to put a new coat of wax on your finish when the weather breaks if you have had to clean your car several times. Nothing I know of will take that kind of winter punishment with need of some renewal or a fresh coat.
    Of course if doing this when the temp is below freezing, be careful to lube things like locks first, and roll down all the windows just a crack before driving away, and if you have power windows, move them around for a while to keep them from freezing in place. wipe down door/trunk seals also before they freeze, and use a good rubber care product on them.

    Don M.
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    wordvoyage,
    Welecome to the club. Wait 'till you see the results of your second coat of Z2. I also felt claying was a pain, but the results are worth it. Now and for the future of the finish.

    jab,
    I've got the same problem, and I'm not sure there is a good simple answer. I've been dusting the car and using Z6 (Gloss Enhancer). The preliminary dusting just gets rid of the loose dust. And the Z6 seems to easily get rid of all the rest of the normal junk (dead bugs up front, mud and road stuff all over). I've also tried just rinsing the car down with a quick spray of water. Even though is was about 20 above zero at the time, most of the dust and junk just washed away from the Zaino surface. And then (very quickly), I ran the car down the road to eliminate as much water as I could. Not a great solution, but it helped a lot.

    The roads in the North East will be full of road salts, sand, and other nasty stuff all winter. I commonly travel between NYC and Otis, MA. So, I expect to get a lot of dirt on the car. And if you have any good ideas, I'd really appreciate hearing about them. What, for example, is the 'one bucket' method?
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    Don't know if this is proper forum for this. I have 1999 Chrysler 300 that is on highway quite a bit. Car has been hit with debris, pebbles, etc and there are about half dozen very small chips in the paint on the front hood. What is best way to fix this? I would assume touch up paint is available at dealer. What is best way to apply this touch up paint? Any suggestions?
  • wareware Member Posts: 28
    Sal Zaino gave me the following advice: "Here's a fix for the chips. Take isopropyl alcohol on a q-tip and dab in only in the rock chip a few times. Take a clean towel and dry chip. Take
    a match out of a match book. Use the opposite end of the head. Dab this in touch-up paint.(do not thin out touch-up paint) Very carefully dab a
    very, very minute amount in the chip. Do not get any paint anywhere other then the chip depression. The trick here is not to try to fix the chip in one application. Do this every day until the paint in the chip is even with the rest of the paint surface. If you do this correctly,
    you will hardly notice that chip repair. You can compound the repair by hand very gently to even out the chip repair. Or better yet, just use a few coats of Z-5 to polish over it. Remember have patience. Don't try to touch-up the chip all at once. It's a gradual building up of the paint, that's the trick."

    Another approach is described at the following URL:

    http://www.carcareonline.com/paint_chips.html

    Note: You should use isopropyl alcohol to remove anyZaino polish if that is what you use to protect your car paint.

    A third alternative is to use the Langka Chip Repair kit which I've read that some people have tried and liked. Read about it at http://www.langka.com/

    Good luck with whatever you try. Please let us know what worked or didn't work for you.
  • newwestdnewwestd Member Posts: 157
    ware - Thanks for the links! Very informative. I have just started to repair a chipped bumper on my Pearl White Solara with clear coat.

    While buying the primer and clear coat at Pep Boys (touch up color from Toyota) I saw they also had little bottles of "Excess Touch-up Paint Remover". After reading the links, I believe that this is similar to the Langka solution that slowly dissolves paint that is not completely cured.

    I'll let you know what happens after I build up the paint and clearcoat blob (slowly) and then smooth it down with the remover. I wonder if it would be even better to use the solution with the Meguiar's Finess block? My car is otherwise flawless - I hope it works!
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    Thanks for the advise. I will try and let you know how it goes.
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    ware,
    Those are very good suggestions. And I'll try them. I also read the method documented in the links on your post. Very complex, but I get the idea. And both sets of instructions seem to be better than what I did in the past. I used to 'sand' out the chip with a very fine file, apply a blob of paint with a tooth-pick, and hope the paint dried flat. It never did.
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    I have been reading with interest postings in several forums regarding Zaino, waxes, Nu Finish and general detailing of vehicle finishes. There are so many products of varying types on the market, all touting their features and benefits. I would like to know the advantages and disadvantages of polymer products of good quality versus traditional wax products of good quality. From the postings I have read, polymer products seem to last longer, but do they actually protect better? Is water beading the main measure of how a product protects the vehicle finish? A friend of mine told me only use a traditional wax product as it allows the paint finish on the vehicle to "breathe". He said that Polymer products do not allow the finish to "breathe", and therefore may cause harm to the finish over a long period of time. I tried Nu Finish (polymer product) on my new Odyssey and found it quite easy to apply and remove, seems to have good shine and after 3 months and many washings, it still beads quite well. I have also used Carnuba Wax products from Meguiars on my vehicles and have been very pleased with the results. If polymer products are better, why is the market still dominated by traditional wax products?
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    I'm no expert and you ask some good questions. If anyone else has some related comments, please post them.

    IMHO, polymers last longer and protect better. And the shine! I'm sure Meguiars also has a good shine, but I'm much happier with my Zaino. I think the reason that wax products still and probably will continue to dominate the market is ease of manufacturing, cost, and the economics of mass marketing. Some of the really big chemical companies produce these waxes or the base wax which goes into the final products. Their scale of operations allows for profits while keeping unit prices low. Polymers cost much more to manufacture, and the best polymer based products are made by much smaller firms. There cost is much higher, and the sum total of all their products cannot even come close to satisfying demand for such products.

    On how they protect: my understanding is that polymer products such as Zaino are actually much 'softer' than the typical high quality wax. Polymers have rather long molecular structures which allow them to expand and contract 'with' the paint/clearcoat surface of your car. This happens all the time due to engine heat and the sun's rays. Wax products are much 'harder' and quickly become brittle. As wax products expand and contract, they break down at the molecular level and the wax surface quickly develops very small cracks. The oils embedded in the wax (ie: hydrocarbon based oils) are then exposed to the air, oxydize, and disapate into the air. The resulting cracks allow the elements to get to the paint or clearcoat.

    The much more flexible polymer products last longer. And products such as Zaino also contain UV filters which slow down the aging process in the car's paint. And when a hole develops due to road particals, stones, etc., the hole doesn't spread as the polymer is actually bonded to the clearcoat.

    I don't know if water beading is the true measure of these types of products. But if it is, then polymer based products such as Zaino as far superior to most of the waxes.
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    I've heard that the biggest drawback to polymer applications is in repair of the paint. Guess it must be more difficult for body shops to work with so they don't like it. But that could go for chip repair too. I think a lot is whether you want technology (polymer) or traditional (carnuba) coatings as your protective layer.
  • wareware Member Posts: 28
    Zaino (polymer) can be removed with isopropyl alcohol or a rubbing compound. I don't know why body shops would not like it. Only products with silicone cause repainting problems from what I have read.
  • pblevinepblevine Member Posts: 858
    I recently had to have a significant scratch repainted. Yep, a real one, and when I saw it I went.... Well, that's another story. Seems the good folks were I parked my car scratched the car and it took a bit to get them to act responsibly. The body shop (S&T Body Works, The Bronx, NYC) did a fantastic job. But before they started, they actually examined to car, realized I had used a Polymer based product, had the wisdom to call me to find out what it was and how to remove from the affected area, and then proceeded correctly.

    Not only did they not mind that I had used a polymer (Zaino), they gave it a truly glowing review. At first, they asked me who was my professional detailer. As I explained Zaino to them, their excitement became real enough to touch. They had no problems removing the Zaino layer from the concerned area, and where easily able to complete their tasks without damaging the Z2 layer on other areas of the car. The final result was so well done that I can't see the repair job. It is perfectly matched to the rest of the car. Thus, only body shops without experience will complain.
This discussion has been closed.