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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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Comments

  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    The test said that they ran some engines for 15,000 between oil changes. Synthetic held up OK, but the Conventional showed significant engine wear.

    Doesn't this interval so exceed the conventional oil change intervals as to be comparing apples and oranges?

    Opinions?
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    Here is the email I received.

    Currently, we have the Valvoline All-Climate 5w20 meeting the SL specification. More are to follow soon. If you have any other technical questions, please feel free to call us at 1-800-354-8957.

    This means to me that the 5W-30 would not be a recommended oil until they meet the new specification, speaking conservatively.
  • namfflownamfflow Member Posts: 202
    Excessive oil consumption on a 318 is likely to be a rear seal. This is one of the few weak links on an otherwise great motor. Have a mechanic check the oil sender also. Sometimes these crack and you lose oil that way. It is a pretty easy and cheap fix. If the engine itself seems to run fine I would suspect everything else (rings, valuves, ets.) are okay.
  • crvciviccrvcivic Member Posts: 11
    Some posts above, someone inquired about effectiveness of syn for driving in high temps. Noticed Viscosity index for GTX as 160, flash like 410*F. Mobil one Visc. like 165, but flash much higher (700*F+). My vehicles run 4,000 rpm, 35 miles per trip at 90-100*F. Syn adviseable here or is Dino doing just as well? If so I plan to use Mobil one 5w30 and Honda (Toyo-Roki) filter at 5K drain intervals. Any suggestions appreciated.
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    Syn is better at higher temperatures, but may be unnecessary. Synthetic doesn't boil off as much since the molecules are uniform.

    But it's not necessary. Unless you have a sludgy engine, you should be able to change the conventional according to your SEVERE schedule. High temperatures like you have are one of the conditions listed for severe driving in my owners manuals.

    Obviously maintain your oil levels near the full position.
  • crvciviccrvcivic Member Posts: 11
    They are closer to 162 Visc/475 flash according to the website. Thanks mrdetailer. Probably go with the Mobil 1 at the severe interval or a bit higher. Seems like a bit of a waste, but what the heck.
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    but not when compared to the 3-5K for an engine overhaul. Any engine will have problems if the conditions exceed what the oil was designed for. I'm not under a quarantee, so on the car I have synthetic in gets changed every 6,000. The older cars with conventional get the 3,000 mile treatment.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Common dinosaur juice motor oil is a conglomeration of various polyalpha olephins. To be sure, the cracking tower allows the carriage of various other ingredients in the distillation process. In so-called PAO based synthetics, the polyalpha olephins are somewhat carefully "manufactured" so that some of the unwanted elements of the cracking tower are not there. So what makes the PAO synthetic acceptable as superior to crude-based oil? It is the 15 or more percent of the finished product that is essentially ester synthetics that have been added. This leads one to consider that pure diester and polyolester synthetics are a better choice. Would you agree? Any evidence to disagree?
  • rcarbonircarboni Member Posts: 290
    Yes, I would agree. Any synthetic lubricant compounded from 50% diester base stock and 50% hydrocarbon stock will be inferior to a 100% diester or polyol ester synthetic.

    The PAO-based synths may or may not be superior to dinos depending upon the additive packages, volatility properties, catalysation method of the PAO, etc. Since most oil manufacturers don't publicize their manufacturing processes or additive contents, it may be a guessing game.

    The base issue comes down to - what do you want from your oil? If you just want your vehicle to last 100K miles, any oil will do, and drain intervals are not critical. However, if you want an oil that will withstand high RPM's and heat, or you are trying to maximize oil life for fleet service, or you want to be as enviro-friendly as possible, or you want to extend drain intervals in any of the above situations, then your choice must be made carefully.

    With weaker oxidation resistance and lower pour/flash points, the base stock oils are not going to meet extended drain or high-temp situations. Additionally, shorter drain intervals and sludge potential of dinos creates an adverse environmental impact. As many quality synths have extended anti-wear additives and improved boundary lubrication, the potential for improved performance is an added benefit.

    With the impending introduction of ceramic engines, even greater performing polymers than today's synthetics are developing. With all the advances in macromolecular chemistry, it's a wonder to me that dino juice is still drilled, refined, and purchased.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    The above leads me to observe again that the gap between "dino" and "synthetic" as a function of lubricity seems to truly be getting smaller as every step is taken up the alphanumeric SAE scale of service designations. Our current SJ grade is remarkably protective of metallic surfaces that otherwise would abrade one another in reciprocating engines. Ironically, SJ presents problems for wet sump motorcycle owners that don't bother the cars and trucks they own. When engine oil also circulates through transmissions, those olephins get chewed down into shorter chains, and over time the engine and tranny are at risk. Now here is a superb indicator for short periodicity in oil changes. Also, I understand that SL grade may possibly be met by some manufacturers by adding ester compounds. The circle closes? This sounds like a new slant on the so-called parasynthetic market.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Lots of good thoughts by wtd44. But what clinches the syn for me is that extra 100 F. of useful lubricating life which could spell the difference between head gasket/cyl damage. It could also give my wife a bit of a cushon when bad things happen. For me, that's what really matters the most.
  • rcarbonircarboni Member Posts: 290
    #662

    I'm not sure how you derive that the gap is narrowing between dino and synth concerning lubrication properties. Synth has always had superior boundary lubrication properties, and supports a better base for additive packages.

    Synths still pour more freely in colder temps at startup, and don't burn off at higher temps. I'm not sure I understand the problem you referred to in motorcycle engines. Why does this only affect synths?

    As the grades toughen, the weaker lubricants will fall out. Thus, more synthetic all around. I find it quite interesting that as the grades have matured, the API recommended drain intervals have lengthened as well. The SG interval was doubled over that of SF. Yet, we still cling to the short interval mindset.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    My motorcycle comments were a justification for short interval oil changes (only vaguely related to the 3K controversy), using crude-based oil (and maybe some synthetics). I personally change oil and filter every 1000 miles in/on my Honda Valkyrie. I intended to imply that crude-based oils are getting so good that in order to improve more, they are perhaps (some of them) becoming a variety of parasynthetic. Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that molybdenum disulfide has been reduced drastically in SJ, and that is what makes it not so good for longevity in motorcyces that combine the engine and transmission in one oil circulation pattern.
  • rcarbonircarboni Member Posts: 290
    I decided to check on the motorcycle references with regard to the use of newer oils. WOW! Seems to be some real issues here - glad I don't own bikes anymore!

    One website states that both Kawasaki and Yamaha do not recommend using any SH or SJ automotive oils, and only SG will keep within warranty. Another site says SJ is fine as long as it is not Energy Conserving (EC) rated. Most seem to think it is only related to wet-clutch systems, and is not a matter of drain interval, but should not be used at all.

    I would think the easy solution would be to use Amsoil motorcycle oil if you want the SJ level of protection without the problems. From their website:

    "AMSOIL Synthetic High Performance 10W-40 Motorcycle Engine Oil is specially formulated to provide tough lubricating protection in the most demanding operations. It is recommended for use in all four-cycle motorcycle and ATV engines, including those with wet clutch systems requiring API CD, SG-CG or SH-CD oils."
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    ...Would that be: www.amsoil.com ?
    That's what I'll assume, and go look.
    Currently I am using Lubrimatic Motorcycle Oil in 10W-40. This is marketed by Stant Corporation and can be purchased by mail or over the Internet.
    Did you find the "folklore" of motorcycle oil as interesting and frustrating as I? Wow again. It appears that SG was the last designation that was "good" for unitized motorcycle engines.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Amsoil did a big spread on cycles due to the oil question and re formulated their oil for cycles. Apparently Harleys claim that the SH and SJ oils removed too much of one additive that air cooled engines need due to higher temperatures and the SJ, SH oils were aimed at increasing auto MPG . A debate raged on some mags or papers devoted to cylces but I cannot remember which.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Bought a "SuperTech" Filter at Welcome to Walmart. Appeared to be very well construcrted with an O-ring instead of gasket. I just bought it because I used my spare filter (usually carry one around), to change oil in son-in-law's Quest. 94% /98% multi pass/single pass. Like I said-not usually my bag. Any thoughts???
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    A synthetic oil made from esters instead of PAO? That would be Redline and some Motul formulations, wouldn't it?

    I just switched from Mobil 1 and Valvoline Synpower to Redline synthetic oil but I haven't seen any difference ... yet. Mileage has been outstanding since the really warm (85F+) weather set in. I've had 3 tankfuls in a row that were 43mpg or higher with one reaching 46+! and this is combination traffic ... freeway cruising along with stop-n-go.

    It was my understanding that SJ oils were no longer recommended for motorcycles where the transmission and engine shared a sump because of the lower levels of ZDDP (Zinc Phosphate). Yes, some manufacturers would void your warranty if you used a regular automotive SJ motor oil. Along with Amsoil and some others like Golden Spectro and Motul, Redline is recommended for motorcycle wet clutches.

    Have you noticed the new packaging being used by the various automotive motor oil marketers? They are either touting that their newly reformulated oils provide better mileage, meet the newer "SL" standards or offer "iso syn" technology. It seems to me that ALL the oil companies are using more and more hydrocracked group II mineral stocks in their 'normal' formulations.

    The line between regular dead-dino and synthetic blurs even further.

    --- Bror Jace
  • rcarbonircarboni Member Posts: 290
    I may be wrong, but it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot of difference between SJ and SL specs. The NOACK volitility has been lowered slightly, and the deposits allowed lowered as well.

    There is also supposed to be less evaporative loss, but I found it interesting that one source mentioned that the new engines designed for SL would run cooler anyway. Hmmm... are the oil companies hyping this up to get that extra $1-2 per case?
  • kyleknickskyleknicks Member Posts: 433
    hi everyone, just wonder what your opinions would be...im thinking bout switching to synethic oil in my 1991 GMC JIMMY WITH 67K miles. would this be okay to do? they said not to do it on higher mileage vehicles..im not sure 67k miles constitute higher mileage. i just want better insurance on the engine which has been used mostly in city driving.... opinons welcomed!!
  • rcarbonircarboni Member Posts: 290
    I went to synthetic at 80K in an older Buick with 3.8. I started out with a blend, running a while with changes at 5K, and then went to full synth until I traded in at 140K. I did have a leak at about 110K, but it turned out to be a torn gasket at the oil filter housing/block mating (happened right after a quick-lube place performed a chassis lube - hmmm...). No other leaks or problems developed.

    I personally think you would do fine, but if you think your engine has accumulated a lot of sludge from the dino oil, use a blend and change more often before going full synth.
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    No problem, but I won't put synthetic in a car that has any oil leaks. Do a blend for 1-2 oil changes to let the car get used to it.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Were you able to buy a Supertech ST6607? I "researched" my local Waldomart one day, and found that they did not have the Quest/Villager filter ST6607. I have debated going back and requesting that they "special order" some so that I can have access. I base my willingness on the presumption that all Supertech filters are Champion filters labelled and boxed for Walmart. I have gained some respect for Champion products as a result of reading some materials on the Internet that suggest Champion does in deed make very acceptable filters. Any thoughts anyone on this?
  • sinjin_dogsinjin_dog Member Posts: 84
    After consulting with some of the experts from here, I switched to Mobile 1 in my new/used 95 Previa with 86k miles. I used one quart of Castrol 10W/40 and rest Mobile 1. So far, well, 3000 plus miles, there are no side effects that I can see. So, it worked out for me for time being.
    Oh, I did use Pure One oil filters.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Yes it is the ST6607. Thanks for the info on the Champion. I did not realize that both the Sentra (my vehicle) and Qusst (son-in-law) took the same filter. I probably will continue to use the OEM Nissan filter on the Sentra because it theoretically has a better drainback valve. This appears to be true from what I have observed. Like I said the ST appears to be a good filter. I believe the Mobil 110 is the equivalent. Pure One does not make this filter as far as I know.
  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    I see your interest in the search for a Quest filter. If you cross-reference the Mobil-110 then it is compatible with Puro-Premium L14610 (a new release, replacing the L14612). I was surprised when I saw the L14612, it was only some 2" long. With the L14610 not regularly stocked (yet), I used the AC-Duraguard PF2057 on the first oil change for our 01-Villager 3.3-liter. I have not examined the Motorcraft application, where I've read it's a Puro-Prem case with Pure-One internals. No, Purolator emailed me that there are no plans to have the L14610/Quest-Villager filter in Pure-One format (perhaps the Motorcraft is the Pure-One route).
    Do you have any thoughts on the AC-Delco Duraguard? Is the ST6607 built to Walmart specs?
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Thanks for the info. I have no idea if the ST6607 is a Walmart spec. I sort of doubt it though. Think I'll stick with the OEM for my Sentra and probably the Mobil 1 for the son-in-law. Probably a waste of money though.

    Thanks again.
  • kyleknickskyleknicks Member Posts: 433
    thanks everyone for your feedback on what i should do with my 68K miles 10 yr old truck.

    I went and bought 2 quarts of Mobil 1 10w30 and a PureOne oil filter and will bring these to the service place this afternoon. I want to start out with mixing 2 quarts of Mobil1 with about 3 quarts of the service shop's Kendall 10w30 dino oil.

    Do you guys see any problems with mixing different BRANDS of oil as long as both are 10w30?

    and...is pouring the mobil 1 in first, then pouring in the dino oil after that.... is this ok?
    or do i have to mix them before putting it in?? i'm letting the service people do it..and i'm sure they'll just throw in the 2 quarts of mobil one and then pump in their regular oil thru that overhead pump.... do u guys see any problems with this? thanks for your insights..i'm planning to get this done this afternoon...
  • sinjin_dogsinjin_dog Member Posts: 84
    I put one quart of Castrol 10w-30 first then rest Mobil 1.
    Again, so far, I have not seen any ill effects.
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    I prefer keeping to the same brand.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Also using the Pure One is good. Probably keeping the same brand is best, but you won't have a problem. Doesn't matter how you pour the stuff in-it'll get mixed up.
  • rcarbonircarboni Member Posts: 290
    #680

    The additive packages in the two oils may not mix too well if they are different brands. It might be better to mix regular Mobil 10w-30 with Mobil-1 10w-30. As everything is SJ/SL oil these days though, I don't think it would be any problem at all.

    Why not use the Mobil-1 blend? Did you want a higher percentage of synth?
  • kyleknickskyleknicks Member Posts: 433
    Rcarboni, from what i understand the blends are 10%-20% syn and 80-90% dino oil. that isn't worth the $2.50 price that its selling for. i wanted about a 40% syn blend, therefore i'm mixing 2 quarts of syn with 3 quarts of dino. better bang for the buck i guess, next oil change,i'll go with 4 quarts of syn and 1 quart of dino. hope it calms my engine a lil bit, seeing that its running a little loud these days
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Many thanks for the heads up on the Purolator L14610. I'll check that out. My Villager and my Pathfinder use the same filter (but not at the same time! Ha!) and the longer case type filters are harder to come by. I have found that Bosch (Champion, I believe, being sold by Autozone) makes a good one with the round cross section gasket. Bosch 3323--
    I have the AC Delco PF2057 that you mentioned, and I will be trying it on one of the two engines.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I have just discovered that in my community, PEP BOYS auto parts carries the Motorcraft and the AC Delco filters needed for the Nissan 3.3L V6 engine, as found in late model Quests, Villagers, and Pathfinders. They only stock a couple of each at a time, due to low sales volume.
  • gasguzzgasguzz Member Posts: 214
    Is that the FL-821? It had the flat gasket instead of the round-Xsection you described on the AC-PF2057. I don't remember what design gasket the oem filter had (round/flat), do you? I know the old Puro-Prem L14612 had the round gasket. Check you the Moto-FL821 BPV. Yes, it's cross-referenced but is it the right one for the Pathy/Villager?
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    You've got the right Motorcraft number, and yes, the gasket is flat. The original Nipponese(?) filter has the round cross section. Here is how I see it: In the Patchgrinder (Pathfinder) the filter is a rascal to get to, and the round section gasket tends to "let go" of the mount more readily. I had a flat section filter (NAPA) in mine that I had to remove with waterpump pliers assisted by fowl language and threats. Now, on my Villager, I do not fear the flat gasket, due to the open access I have. Otherwise, I would use either gasket style on any Nissan 3.3L application appropriate.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I have an '01 Elantra and am getting to the 3500 mile mark. I'm leaning towards running the first oil change and then going to Mobil 1 10-30 with a 7500 mile change (Hyundai's long interval).

    This will be the first time to use synthetic, and it's dawned on me that I've run any number of cars out to the 160K mark, and (with the exception of a 94 Caravan which is now sitting in my driveway with a busted transmission, but also has the dreaded Mitsubishi 3.0 valve guide smoking), none of my cars has bit the big one because of engine problems. It was always something else. About six months ago I bought an 87 Chevy Nova from my mother-in-law. Car had been abused (by former owners, not her she drove 300 miles a year), but the engine drove out OK, even with 150K on the clock. Automatic transaxle went on it (hate automatics to me they're the weakest link).

    So, why treat the engine to an expensive oil change that will ensure it's hitting the 300K mark if the rest of the car goes byebye at 150?

    Isn't most oil so much better than ten years ago that it's overkill?
  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
    For me it mostly for saving time. Changing synthetic, and premium filter, every 6000 mile / 6 month costs just a notch more than changing natural oil every 3000 mile / 3 months. Something like $20 per year extra. I value my time higher.

    Additionally, the engine is lubricated better in colder winter days, in traffic jams, etc - but this is practically for free.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    I use it because it gives better protection after 10000 miles than a brand new change of oil. Oil use in a sound engine is less than 1 oz per 1000miles. Lastly and the most important for me: a coolant failure will allow wife/daughter to drive the car long enough to get to a safe place. Works for me-others make their own choices on their priorties.
  • edwardh5edwardh5 Member Posts: 130
    I thought one reason for changing oil was to get rid of acid from combustion.
    using syn lets the acid build up to higher levels.
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    The answer is no. The Synthetic Esters that are added to the oils not only keep the seals soft, but they also help dissipate heat and reduce acids.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Keep in mind that the cost difference between the two is negligible ($10-20), as yurakm pointed out, and that you'll get an additional 2-4% fuel economy with synthetic oil which wipes out the economic advantages of using mineral oils altogether.

    -- Bror Jace
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    You are a very deductive person. You must be, for you somewhat agree with me! (:^]
    I was fully into the synthetic thing for many years, and one day realized that I was not extending my ownership of the vehicles, and I have never been one to "blow engines" anyway. I saw that the second owner of my vehicles was getting the best of my effort (not that that is bad). I then considered how the makers and distributors of so many of the syns were keeping vital information a secret while making unsubstantiated claims, and I questioned whether I could afford to simply trust them and make myself an ignorant "true believer." Please note that several have drastically changed their formulations-- seemingly in response to big problems associated with their early formulas. I found it quite easy to then return to refined crude at under a buck a quart on sale at today's prices. Can anyone fault Shell or Texaco or Valvoline (etc.) with scientific, irrefutable evidence?
  • arjay1arjay1 Member Posts: 172
    Has that ever been proven?
    I am a user of synthetic and doubt that claim.
    And what would that 2% to 4% increase even net you in savings.
    If fuel is $1.50 per gallon and your car gets 28mpg with dyno oil the savings would still be very small.
    If you do the math you will save $5.25 with a 2% increase in fuel mileage if you go 5,000 miles between oil changes. A 4% increase in fuel mileage will net you $10.30. This hardly pays for the extra cost of that $4.30 synthetic oil.
    Don't use synthetic if you don't need to. I use it in one vehicle that is turbocharged and in my other vehicle due to towing dirt bikes. Otherwise, I would stick with dyno.
    As usual, just my opinion!
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    which can be valuable. I still think you'd be hard pressed to better the Wal-Mart $11.88 oil change (unless you do your own). For that you get up to 5 quarts of their oil (which is really Quaker State) and a Fram filter. Beg them repeatedly and put a big sign on your steering wheel and they'll substitute their filter (which is a Champion Labs) for the gawdawful Fram. Wal-Mart's syn. price is $30, so you can get two and a half dino changes for one syn. change. Which is better, changing oil AND filter every 4,000 miles or using syn. oil and filter at 10,000?
    The price would be identical and the wear on the oil would probably be the same. The tipping point would be that you'd get two additonal filters. Of course you could go to changing filters at mid change.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    tests of 15K drain intervals and after 200K all parts came up to specs for **new** parts. I'd say the syn change is better.
  • wtdwtd Member Posts: 96
    When were these tests conducted. I have information from mobil on their early 1990's test using the the BMW where they drove it 1 million miles doing the manufactures recommended maintenance and oil changes and the parts were still within new specs after this time. I've never seen the test that you refer to. I've heard that Mobil's formulation now is not as good as it was in the early 90's.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    on 2-27-95. So the tests were probably run '93/'94. Is the stuff as good as it was then?? I see no reason for it to be inferior to an earlier time. They have a product development team for Mobil 1. Its not logical for the product to be inferior to that of 7 or 8 years ago IMHO.
  • wtdwtd Member Posts: 96
    Castrol Syntec used to be alot better product than it is now so its not unbelievable that Mobil might have downgraded their product especially since they basically lost the lawsuit against Castrol stating what is considered a synthetic.
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