Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

csandste

I can't believe that the hash marks on a dipstick are such that 3 or 4 extra ounces of oil are going to get up to the crankshaft level or adversely increase pressure. If that happened there'd be all sorts of warranty claims.

adc100

Like I said the thing has to be somewhat idiotproof. Like if those fools those driving around with 15 psi in their SUV/Firestone tires could have had enough brains to have 20 psi in.... What am I saying they are all rich now due to Lawsuits.

wtd44

Years ago, I sold a car through an ad in the local paper. One of the first "lookers" taught me a lesson: He noted that the oil on the dipstick was between full and low, while the oil was fresh clean. He asked why. I told him I changed the oil and filter very recently and poured in five quarts, but did not add more beyond that to bring the level up to the full mark. He shot me a twisted smile, and left without buying. I topped the oil to the full mark, and a later looker bought the rig. The buyer said that the oil being to the full mark meant that it didn't use oil...
Go figure!

chikoo

in the crankcase causes air bubbles to form which end up giving less protection to the car.

keep it between min-max.

but to satisfy the fool-on-the-street while selling your car, top it off to max. Customer satisfaction is No.1

arjay1

As a wise person once said, "I think we are picking the fly s**t out of the pepper".
How about when you change your oil and filter you add back the amount of oil specified in your manual! When I do that it puts the oil level right at the full mark on the dipstick.
If the oil level starts to drop, then add more oil. When, maybe half between full and add.
I can't believe this can be that big of a deal. We are debating the merits of ounces of oil! Have you ever seen oil being pumped through an engine? Ounces don't matter.
You could safely fun your engine half low on oil in the short term. A good portion of your oil is always in the pan. The oil capacity is higher than needed to allow for better dispersion of impurities as well as better cooling of the oil.
Don't worry about a quarter of quart low, you're fine.

sdayalani

has anyone out there had any experiences (positive or negative) with havoline synthetic 5/10w30?
is it suitable for extended drain intervals and is it formulated with PAO like mobil1 and valvoline? tks

armtdm

I use it in my mower as it was cheap, 2.99/quart for a while. However, the 10W30 is fine, I had the 5w30 in my lawn vaccum and mower for a while and I swear, it looked and felt like water. really really thin film and clear, not amber etc. Maybe I got a bad quart but since then I go with their 10W30. Unfortunatley, price has caught up, last I saw was $4.49/quart. I use Amsoil in my car engines at $4.35/quart.

tsjay

I don't think you went back to the start of this discussion about the oil level. You said that a quarter of a quart is no big deal, but my problem is that I could be as much as a half a quart over full if I go by the owners manual vs the old dipstick.

Here's the problem...

My '89 S-10, 2.8 L V6, 2WD truck's owners manual calls for 4.5 quarts of oil when the oil and filter are changed, but when I had the oil changed for the first time since buying the truck, 4.0 quarts brought the oil level up exactly to the full mark even though the filter was also changed.

I didn't have an owners manual at the time the oil was changed, but I thought that it was supposed to get 4.0 quarts, so that's what I had them put in, and, sure enough, the oil level was exactly on the full mark after starting the engine and letting it run to allow the filter to fill up and to check for leaks.

A couple days later, the owners manual that I had ordered came in, and it said that I should have put in 4.5 quarts.

My dipstick does not have a "maximum overfill" line or anything. It simply has a crosshatched area representing the "normal operating range."

After the oil change, the level was exactly at the top of the normal operating range.

I have verified that I have the right dipstick by going to the GM.com web site. They got back to me via email and the part number they quoted for the dipstick matched what was stamped on mine.

Also, I have the proper filter, the AC PF52, which GM says has replaced the PF51 that the owners manual calls for (the PF52 has an anti-drainback valve, which the PF51 did not).

So, do I believe the dipstick or the owners manual?

If I go by the dipstick and use 4.0 quarts, then I could be leaving the crankcase half a quart low, if the owners manual is correct in calling for 4.5 quarts. That would be better than overfilling by half a quart if the dipstick is actually correct and the owners manual is wrong.

Then again, I could use 4.25 quarts, huh? Then I wouldn't be grossly overfilling if it really only should get 4.0 quarts.

tom

mrdetailer

so don't let the color worry you. I checked the specs at Havoline.com and they are impressive. It appears to be a full synthetic.

gsleve

If you had verified that you have the proper dipstick from Chevy than I trust the you're oil's dipstick and not the manual you're dipstick seems to be the true indicator since you validated it is the proper one

One thought you could check a haynes manuel to see what the state as the capacity level

tsjay

goldranger

Searched many of the 763 messages, & didn't see what I was looking for.
Does anyone know for sure who makes Motorcraft oil? It's distributed by Ford by I know they don't make it.

Thanks for any assistance

div2

AutoZone should have the 0W-40. I know that the ones in the Louisville area carry it. Mobil 1 even touts that Autozone sells 0W-40 on their web site.

bluedevils

I don't know whether I agree or disagree with gsleve's claim that the optimum amount of oil is represented by a reading just above the Min mark on the dipstick. Granted, gsleve offered no real logic to support that statement. However, the several folks who disagreed offered no real logic, either. E.g., armtdm said "Based upon many many years and many many cars keeping the oil level near or at the max level does not contribute to oil consumption or engine deterioration." I'm not trying to be rude here, but that proves nothing. How do you know that the oil consumption rate would not have been less with a just-above-Minimum-mark dipstick reading? I'll assume that most of us have owned a vehicle(s) that has exhibited some oil consumption. How do we know that consumption would have been worse, better, or the same if the engine oil was maintained at a different dipstick level? We don't.

To me, this argument seems similar to the claims made by the guy who changes dino oil & filter every 3k miles-- 'my engines have always lasted a long time. It's because I take care of it by changing the oil every 3000 miles.' Of course, most folks on this forum agree that this theory is not sound. What do they say in psychology? Correlation is not causation.

I'm guessing that nobody on this forum has run any tests on the same vehicle in an attempt to determine which dipstick reading results in greater oil consumption (or if there's any difference in consumption at all).

I do agree that running just above the Min mark is unwise for the reason that it's too easy for the level to drop dangerously low. If you're maintaining at a quart below the max and your engine burns another quart, now you're 2 quarts low and that's generally not good.

I may run a mini-test on my 98 Isuzu Trooper to see if the oil consumption rate is any different with the dipstick halfway between Min & Max. It's worth a shot. I typically keep the level at Max. The 3.5L V6 in the Trooper, and its 3.2L predecessor, are well-known to consume quite a bit of oil (1 quart every 1-3k miles) even in newer and well-maintained vehicles. BTW, ours consumes a quart every 2000-2800 miles.

div2

Running at the "MIN" mark is fine if you drive in blue-hair mode, but more than one driver has seen their oil pressure drop to zero while pulling some serious lateral Gs on an on-ramp or sweeper. Very few street cars have sufficient baffling in the oil pan to keep the pump pickup submerged when the oil level is at or near the "MIN" mark AND you are cornering "briskly". Cars that can readily fall victim to this problem range from the 2nd generation WS6 Trans Ams to the BMW E36 M3s.

sdayalani

i was doing a comparison between mobil1 and havoline, and i have to agree with mrdetailer ..havoline specs look impressive.
just dont know whether its a true PAO synthetic or it falls in the "castrol" league of things.
with havoline syn prices in the same league as mobil, its cost advantage is lost.

10W-30 Mobil 1 Havoline

pour point (celcius) -54 -51 flash point (celcius) 243 250
viscocity index 147 148

5W-30 Mobil 1 Havoline

pour point (celcius) -54 -54 flash point (celcius) 235 242
viscocity index 162 160

sdayalani

sdayalani

anyone know where to find the technical specs for valvoline synpower? its not on their website

wtd44

We definitely have a Shakespearian situation here: Much Ado About Nothing. I refer, of course, to the dilemma concerning oil level on the dipstick. >:^l

mdecamps

That extra .5 quart that is illusive to you is only because the oil wasn't allowed to drain for more than 5 or 10 minutes. The 4.5 quarts that your manual recommends is based on a dry engine. Next time let your engine drain overnight and then add 4.5 quarts (assuming you change the filter too) and I think you will see it is perfect. That is the case on my 2.2L S-10 that requires 4.5 quarts.

tsjay

Thanks, Pal. I have posted so many times and in two or three different message boards, so I can't remember where it was, but I posed this as a possibility somewhere.

I was going to be sure that the engine was warmed up properly next time so the oil would flow more freely the next time that I have the oil changed.

Someone also pointed out that with the engine warmed up, the dirt should be in suspension better and more likely to drain out with the oil rather than being settled out in the bottom of the pan, only to go back into suspension in the fresh oil after the oil change.

tom

Mark, did you know there's a web site for S-10 owners? I don't remember seeing any posts from you there. It's www.s-series.org. There's a world of stuff there pertaining to S-10's.

armtdm

I suppose that if new cars came from the factory (assuming that the engineers at the manufacturer knew what they were doing) with the oil level at just above the MIN of the dipstick range I would be comfortable at keeping it just above MIN. However, new cars come with the oil level at the top of the dipstick range near the full mark so I vote to go with the manufacturer and keep it up there. One really needs to know if the oil pan can adequately hold the full amount and I believe most are designed to handle some overfill as well.

I had one car, a Merc where the manual had misleading info on oil quantity. Lube place put in enough to get it to the min alright, after 100 miles the ole red light came on, low oil level. Keep it between the hash marks, I personally keep all 5 of mine near the top. Does the philosophy of keeping fluid near the min mark go for power steering fluid, coolant level, brake fluid and tranny fluid as well. Sorry, I am not willing to take that chance!

bluedevils

It definitely makes sense to keep fluids at the "Full" or "Max" mark and makes no sense to keep fluids at the "Min" or "Add" mark.

In my prior post, I was just trying to point out that none of us has any first-hand experience/evidence to prove lower oil consumption when maintained at the Max mark.

Who knows - it may actually be better for oil consumption if the level is kept below the Max mark, but manufacturers state/imply to keep it at the Max mark because that provides the average consumer (who rarely checks oil level) with additional margin for error.

adc100

vs Mobil 1. It's all about the additive package and the ability of meeting tripple and quadruple API sequence testing. Has Havoline done any of this??? I'm not saying they haven't, just have not seen it.

barnone

level at approx 6" from the tip of the dipstick.
the Min mark is at approx 3/4" and the Max/full
is approx 2"

this is the reason why i dont mind that my oil
level is not exactly at the max/full mark,
considering the fact that the level falls at
certain scenarios.

tsjay

I would say that a serious mistake was made somewhere, and I would have gone straight back to the dealer and had them do an oil change!

You could have done some damage by running that vehicle with the oil level that much over the full mark! It might not be something that would show up right away.

It would bother me to no end, if that had happened to me.

tom

barnone

i'm aware of the possibility of too much oil
pressure if the oil level is too high.

after 3K miles, i have no problems whatsoever.
i'm scheduled for oil change at 3750mi or 6mos
whichever comes first.

i think that the "idiot factor" comes into play
here where the dealer/mfr assumes that the
customer does not check oil until the scheduled
maintenance. anyways, the car is still under
warranty so the dealer would step to the plate
if anything wrong happens.

wtd44

There's SOME factor operating, for sure. You wouldn't be joking here, would you, barnone?

tsjay

Hey, I finally decided to try some Max Life after soliciting advice and getting only one negative response about it (Vidtech).

If anyone else out there has had a bad experience with it, please post!

Would also like to hear positive comments, if you have had good experience with it.

A few people have been kind enough to express their opinions, but I would love to hear from others too.

I have bought the oil, but I'm not due for the next oil change for another 1500 miles.

tom

celianeron

Since bringing my new Ford E150 Van home from the dealer,the oil rested at half between min-max.After several oil changes, the six quarts called for always put it at half between min-max on the dipstick. never had a vehicle that did not read at the full mark when filled by the book. So, what gives? Is it full at six quarts?I'm not even thinking about the little filter on the V6.Oh, any comments on Castrol Syntec 5-50 oil?I don't start this van for weeks. Does synthetic oil drain off the bearings and result in dry start ups?
Thanks for the thoughts

Ron

tboner1965

comes FULL of oil from the factory. I'm sure that is one of the things the dealer has to do as part of the prep is check the oil level.

adc100

"Real" synthetic oil such as Mobil 1, Quaker State, Valvoline, Amsoil (PAO/Ester) "cling" to metal better, and thus give better protection on startups. Not sure if Castrol's "imitation" synthetic is as effective. No matter what the oil there is a small film which helps protect on startup until the oil is delivered. Thats why proper viscosity under cold conditions, keeping rpm's low, and not putting a load immediately help protect bearings on startup. Apparently a significant amount of engine wear occurrs during startup. One of the disadvantages of modern engines with injectors is that vehicles start immediately. Some vehicles also immediately run between 1000 rpm and 1500 rpm which is also bad. Syn oils help counteract this effect better than conventional oils.

armtdm

Besides the fact noted above that Castrol Syntec is NOT a true synthetic but is a creation of their marketing department (Car & Driver Magazine, Nov 2000 issue) any oil with the range spread of 5W50 requires a huge amount of additives to provide that range. Most synthetic 10W30 oils like Mobil 1 and Amsoil have no additives to maintain the viscosity whereas a 10W40 has more and a 10W50 or 5W50 has a very large amount of additives which, as I understand it, may wear out or be depleted sooner making the oil not as durable.

Also, most modern enignes do not suggest anything above a 30W so 10W30 would be the max under most conditions. I would not put a 5W50 in a new Ford van!

barnone

it would help me to just follow the maintenance
schedule and check fluids religiously.

gsleve

I would think such a depletion of the polymers for such a spread ie 5w-50, in a petroleum oil would be rapid yet, in a synthetic oil this depletion may not occur as quickly thereby it's usage may last a little longer.

csandste

Aside from additive depletion, I would think that a 10-40 or 5-50 oil of any kind would be far too thick at operating temperature given the close tolerances of modern engines. Won't a 10-40 oil violate warranty of most modern cars. I thought most manufactures required the API "sunburst"? After all the new ILSAC 3 standards call for a 5W20. This appears to be the norm for a lot of Ford engines even now.

wtd44

NOT too thick at operating temp:
Light (thin) oils such as 5 weight have elastomers added that react to elevating temperatures. At engine cold temps, you seem to have no effect, but as the engine warms, the elastomers begin morphing in ways that make the oil the thickness that a bit heavier oil without elastomers would have at that higher temp. This process continues, and at full hot engine temp, the elastomers reach max weight equivalency of the equal heavy oil at THAT temp. Upon cooling, this reverses.

csandste

Then why is 10W30 Ok in modern engines and 10W40 not?

gsleve

Perhaps if we qualify this in terms of syn vs dino if a 10w-30 syn is used it has the protection that a 10w-40 in petro would give and if a 10w-40 syn is used has the protection of 20w-50 weight, however it is true that 10w-40 petro oils contained a lot elastomers or polymers which wear significantly and considered you're weak point, these polymers depleted rapidly and facillitated the oxidation process bringing onset of varnish and sludge yet in order to construct a 10w-40 syn the amount polymers required to meet that designation is no where near what is needed to make a 10w-40 petro.

brorjace

I found the following quote regarding oils like 5W50 and the goo used to bridge the wide gap between the thickeners at Redline's site. Even if you never decide to use their oil, they have a lot of good info:

http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/engoilti.htm

“These polymeric thickeners are very large molecules which will suffer from thermal cracking when exposed to high temperatures. When these molecules crack, they reform to create varnish deposits which can stick rings and plug turbo passages. For this reason most turbocharged cars recommend against using wide-range multigrades.”

Looked at how fast their 5W50 degrades on the "Reduced Friction" bar graph after only 5,000 miles.

--- Bror Jace

sdayalani

is shell synthetic a 100% PAO or a "me too" synthetic like castrol syntec? how does it compare to mobil 1? is it manufactured with 100% synthetic basestocks?

dhanley

It's not true that moden cars don't like 10w40. In fact, BMW recommends 15w40, and says it's OK to run all the way down to 15 degrees farenheit. 5w30 is ok, but only up to 50F. As I may never see 15F cold starts, but i will see 50+ on a daily basis even in winter, there's really no reason to use the thick stuff...

SAAB says 5/30 10/30 10/40 and 5/40 are all perfectly fine oils, and that 15/40 is ok for summer use. The saab runs pretty hot, so we use the thick stuff.

OTOH, my saturn dealer said anything but 5w30 would endanger the warranty on the engine.

I was looking at the AMSOIL site, and their tests indicate that mobil1 is the WORST oil on their tests of several. That's what i use, and was buying for my service this week! Was their change to tri-syntheitc disasterous, or is marketing likely involved? I was actually planning on using the 15w50.

dave

wtd44

I was told years ago that GM started the thing about 10/40 not being appropriate for some new engines-- THEIR engines. The story went that a spread of 30 points between the low number and the high number was too much. The problem was explained thus: The 30 point spread required elastomers of such great length, that the risk for gumming up engines was significantly higher than if 25 point or less differentials were used. There was a threat that if you blew a GM engine and they could show presence of elastomers beyond the 25 point type, well, no warranty repair. The hysteria and paranoia have spread over the years to many brands.

tlindeman1

It's been awhile since anyone discussed this topic so here goes. My 2001 Civic is approaching 8,000 miles (and has been mechanically flawless despite other owner's experience expressed in this forum). I had the oil changed at the dealership at 5,000 miles and intended to put another 4,000 miles on the Honda 5W20 before switching to synthetic. To my knowledge, Amsoil is the only manufacturer that currently makes a synthetic 5W20 and I have enough confidence in them to use it but am wondering if 5W30 synthetic would be better. My understanding is that the 5W20 is used for a slight mpg increase. Wouldn't 5W30 with it's higher film strength be better for this engine and give comparable or better fuel economy to the dino 5W20? I need to decide what I'm going to use soon...Honda says stick with the recommended 5W20 (even though the owner's manual says 5W30 CAN be used if 5W20 is unavailable). Are there engine design issues that make the 5W20 better for this car?

wtd44

Don't we all suspect that fleet fuel efficiency needs of the manufacturers are the real reasons behind the strong recommendations to go counter intuitive and use watery lubtricants?

mrdetailer

I understand that this is the only oil recommended. After that you can go to the 5W30.

adc100

That one of the reasons for the push was the increase of the CAFE' (This was for Ford). Speaking for myself. I would not have purchased a vehicle which "required" the 20 wt. Second I would use a syn 30wt. There is no reason this should harm the vehicle as 40 wt oil is common in Europe and 50 wt. oil has been used in engines which call for 30 wt. without any ill effects that I am aware of. I would switch to syn instead of using the dino 30 (or 20) wt . Feel free to disagree. It would be helpful if you could "prove" me wrong. I am always willing to learn.

armtdm

Since the car is under warranty and assuming that the owner will change at least eevry 7,500 to keep the warranty I would go with the Amsoil 5W20 which is the XL 7,500 mile oil. Synthetic is the way to go regardless of the weight you decide to use.

gsleve

Thinner motor oils such as 5W-20 or even 0W-20 are becoming more popular these days and are even specified by some OEM's (FORD & HONDA) on new 2001 cars.

Although these oils are promoted as "energy conserving" they generally trade a gain of less than 0.1 MPG in Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) for shorter useful engine life.

FORD which has previously designed cars to have 10 year or 150,000 miles life has reduced the mileage life expectation to "beyond 100,000 miles" on vehicles that are operated on SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil.

HONDA only claims "useful life" as 7-years or 70,000 miles in EPA certifications for their CIVIC which uses SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil, while the previous model that utilized SAE 5W-30 Motor Oil was certified for 10 year or 100,000 mile durability.

Since both HONDA and FORD Warranty their NEW cars for ONLY 3-years or 36,000-miles the reduction in engine life expectancy is not a factor.

By contrast Mercedes-Benz recommends use of ONLY Synthetic Motor Oil that is at least SAE 5W-40! This is a recent increase in recommended viscosity from SAE 5W-30. Apparently customer research indicated that engine longevity is more important to typical MB customer than fuel economy.

Even more important is the High-Shear High-Temperature MINIMUM specification in SAE J300. In tables below you will notice that there are "two" SAE 40 specifications, one with minimum HSHT value of 2.9 cP for Automotive Oils (SAE 0W-40; 5W-40; 10W-40) and the other for Heavy Duty Oils (HDO) (SAE 15W-40; 20W-40; 25W-40; 40).

This double specification is at insistence of heavy duty engine manufacturers who have required HSHT viscosity limits consistent with good engine durability in high-load, severe service operation. HSHT value of 3.7 cP or 27% more viscous oil at 150ºC (300ºF).

Yes, a 27% increase in viscosity makes a difference between Automotive engine that lasts 100,000 miles and Truck engine that lasts 1,000,000 miles!

gsleve

in terms of or withint the context of petroleum oils or synthetics and, are the VI improvers used for this 5w-50 like kind and quality used both petroleum and a synthetic oil.

I may be confused I thought that synthetics were much superior and due to their inherent properties the amount of VI improvers used in a syn are very little to that used in a petroleum additonally some syns like Mobil 1 do not use VI improvers to achieve their objective, for their 5w-30, 10w-30 or 0w-30 qualify, they may use and very little for there 15w-50 same rule applies with amsoil relative to their 10w-40, 20w-50 oils the amount of elastomers used for the spread is small not equal to what is needed in a petro base oil. This is what I've read in some technical journals on the subject of synthetic oils

Then again I may need to see the light, could be totally confused