Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

adc100

I found an application where conventional oil makes sense. I had used syn and pure one filter in mother in laws car (she' 85). 3 months after I changed she had it changed again. Dino Oil-regular filter. $30 in oil and flter for 1000 miles. Yesterday I bought 4 qts of Havolin ($.89) and a standard purolator filter. I thnk the bll was $5.99.

wtd44

You mean, you let petroleum based oil touch you?
(:^>

adc100

when doing the job!!!

wtd44

I am much relieved! lol

sdayalani

a guy married to synthetics touching the dino stuff


lol

ybc

I have a seasonal car that I put away in the winter. Dealer says I should change the oil before putting away and then change it again when I get ready to take it back out. What's the reasoning behind that? He says something about removing moisture that builds up as the car sits, but I'd like to hear unbiased opinions. Thanks!

ygriega

I am amazed at the number of people responding on this site that do NOT change their oil THEMSELVES.
Just amazing that otherwise "car nuts" would trust such a critical and SIMPLE procedure to someone who doesn't give a whit about your investment. Do you really pump your own gas!!??
No matter where I lived, no matter my economic station in life, I've always changed my own oil.
Sort of like brushing one's teeth....

adc100

Its just difficult for me to trust the Jiffy Lube Man.

ybc

Apologies for not being clear enough in my original post. I was specifically seeking unbiased opinions over the need to change the oil before and after a car has been stored for a while - NOT - over whether or not I should change my own oil.

I would appreciate feedback from anyone who has some useful knowledge to share with me on this matter. Thanks in advance.

yurakm

You wrote: I am amazed at the number of people ... that do NOT change their oil THEMSELVES.
...
No matter where I lived, no matter my economic station in life, I've always changed my own oil.

Well, I am renting an apartment. My lease explicitly prohibit servicing cars on the parking lot.

tsjay

Although I don't change the oil myself, I go only to places to have it changed where I can hang around and watch the whole procedure. I wouldn't even think of dropping off my vehicle and leaving it while the oil gets changed.

I have one place that changes the oil and filter and does a complete lube job for $5.95, if you bring in your own oil and filter, and another place that does the same for $7.00. It just isn't worth it to do it myself to save only 6 or 7 bucks.

tom

yurakm

I change oil at Firestone and sometimes at dealership. Being a AAA member, they do free courtesy check with every service.

This is not so important with newer cars, but was very useful while I drove an old Ford Taurus with 105-130K miles.

The Firestone mechanics found once a crack in the front half-axle, definitely a safety item. Couple of times found the joint cover was damaged on the axles. And other problems.

brorjace

YBC, to answer your question, I'd change the oil BEFORE you put your car away and remove any acids, etc ... that might be in the dirty oil. Then, in the spring, just take it out for an hour-long drive. Assuming the PCV system is working properly, the normal operation of the engine will remove any moisture/condensation that might have built up in the clean oil. Doing both, as your dealer suggests, is merely wasteful.

--- Bror Jace

spokane

I agree with Bror Jace. Moisture and contaminants in old oil could cause some deterioration during storage if left in the crankcase. However, no significant additional moisture will enter the crankcase while it is stored. There's no shelf-life problem with clean motor oil. And yes, check/clean the PCV valve and tubing during the few weeks prior to putting it in storage.

ybc

Thanks for the advice - that makes a lot of sense. One more question, if you don't mind. Have you guys any guidance on how to properly clean the PCV valve?

armtdm

A $1.98 can of carb cleaner sprayed into the valve (with valve off and disconnnected from line) and clean any gunk out.

duper

I saw many posts praising Mobile 1 synthetic oil but not much about their other oil, Mobil 0, the cleaning oil. How does it do compare to others such as Valvoline or Quaker State? They can be found pretty cheap, .88ct/quart, from Walmart.

Thanks

....

adc100

Havoline has always had the best (or one of the best) reputations. Who really knows. You'll never see the real data. Maybe someone else has a better idea.

dagrin451

i got the oil changed in my car (92 cadillac) about a month ago, and the "change engine oil" light keeps flashing. You guys thingk it sjust something wrong with the guages/computer. By the way its cool to just refill the oil without changing it, right?

csandste

"By the way its cool to just refill the oil without changing it, right?"

Did you run your engine dry and then put some more oil in? Did you throw four quarts into an engine that already had four quarts in it?

If you mean, is it ok to put in an additional quart of oil if the level is at the bottom of the hashmark without changing the oil, then that's OK.

dagrin451

thanks csandste

bottgers

Back in March of this year, my car needed an oil change. I always change my own oil and filter, but at the time, I had a cast on my arm. Though I probably could've changed the oil myself, it would've been very awkward. So I took my car to our local Jiffy Lube. There was a window between the waiting room and the bay, and I had a plain view of the two guys working on my car. One guy was checking things under the hood, while the other was underneath the car. I watched the guy working under the hood pour one quart of oil (Mobil 1 synthetic, which I brought in myself) into the engine while the guy below still had the drain plug removed. When they were finished, the guy behind the counter told me that I needed to pick up another quart of oil because it was one quart low. I gave him a chance to come clean and tell me the truth, but instead he tried to hide what they'd done, and they were still going to charge me the full price for the service! I told him that I was standing there watching what these guys did through the window, and that I had changed the oil myself many times and I knew that it took exactly 5 quarts to fill the engine. He then appologized and asked me how much I paid for the oil, and I told him $4.50, which he then deducted from my bill.

The moral of the story? Change your oil yourself. If you absolutely have to have it done, watch them like a hawk, because they'll screw you if you don't!

div2

Jiffy Lube horror tale are legion.

dagrin451

in the owners manual....the thing says to use ONLY Oil with the label "SG" on it, nothing else. BUt i havent been able to find any around. All i find is "SL" and "SJ". Whats the diff. b/t "SL", "SG", and "SJ". Does it really matter?

csandste

by a later standard. No problem.

armtdm

You can use an SJ rated oil in any auto application where lower lettering is called for, no problem. Not true for motorcycles though as Harley claims that SH is better then SJ for air cooled hotter running cycle engines and that SJ oils removed some of the additives in order to get better fuel economy.

In gear oils though, a GL-5 should not be used where a GL-4 is specified, different additives and can injure some components

brorjace

... the biggest difference between SJ and the earlier oils like SG and SH is the reduced amount of ZDDP in the newer formulations. This is a useful high-pressure anti-wear additive which has a tendency to poison catalytic converters over time so pressure was put on the industry to lower the levels found in many motor oils.

Mobil 1 brags about this on their bottles ... although I'm not sure I'd do the same if I were them.

--- Bror Jace

wtd44

So I went to this promotional thing at the local Firestone Store, and I ended up buying an oil & filter change certificate for half the normal price. That was on a Saturday. Monday morning I went back and asked for a refund, which they cheerfully gave to me. I just know better than to allow "others" to change my oil and filter. I have the hard experience that supports my position. If you must live in an apartment complex that disallows light car maintenance, I strongly suggest finding a place away from there that you can do it yourself.

guitarzan

I wonder if this has ever been discussed here. (I bowed out for 400 posts, oops!)

Why does putting ice cold oil into a hot engine not do any damage?

spokane

Guitarizan, that's an interesting question since motor oil removes quite a bit of engine heat during operation. However, its thermal conductivity is rather low; only about 30% of that for water. Thus, cold oil added to a hot engine, can't extract heat rapidly enough to cause significant contraction of the head or other engine components.

dhanley

The oil isn't ice cold, it's room temperature ( probably 70F ) and the oil that was there was probablt no more than 210 or so--i think a lot of oils vaporize at 250, so obviously it can be no hotter than that.

Combine that with the good info in the precceding post, and your reason should be clear.

dave

guitarzan

Change your oil in the wintertime. If the oil is in the garage, it is near the outside temperature.

Spokane, I thought about its heat absorbing properties also, but didn't have confidence in that answer because of exactly what you mention: Its the job of the oil to remove heat. But I guess it is all relative, as you mention.

It has always scared me to be putting the cold oil right onto the cam. Now the cam doesn't have much meat relative to the block. But I guess the low conductivity you mention must be low enough!

adc100

nothing!!!. However these are all sincere questions. You could pour cold oil on a hot cam all day.(and all night too-with no effects)

tsjay

Forgive me for intruding here, but I think you are wrong about oil temps never getting above 250º F. The coolant temps might not get any higher than that (normal is around 210º F), but the oil gets much hotter than the coolant does.

Someone help us out here... what temperature range does the oil normally see?

We have a test for our paper (I work at a plant that makes automotive filter paper) where the paper is "cooked" in 400º F oil for 96 hours and then the paper is flex tested to check for brittleness. I know it's common for tests to be run under extreme conditions that the product would never actually see, just to accelerate the test and to have a big safety margin. So, maybe the oil wouldn't see 400º under normal conditions, but I'll bet 300+ is normal.

tom

vetteryan

I have a Corvette (1985). It has a digital oil temperature readout. My oil never gets above 220 degrees. My car, however, is equiped with the z51 package that includes an oil cooler. I have talked to other Corvette owners w/o an oil cooler and they rarely see 240 degrees during normal summer highway driving. Racing does bring the temp up quite a bit though! The temperature does vary widely in different areas of the engine though. Localized heat, like near combustion areas, probably exceed 400 degrees or more (guess). This is one reason I run synthetic--Amsoil.

Take Care
Ryan

adc100

I suppose it could go up to 300 F. in minute amounts. But the overwelming amount would see about the bulk temperature of the block. I would guess that the average block temperature is not more than 25 F above thew thermostat setting. That would put oil temperature at less than say 225 F because it is actually cooling the block and hence could not get up to bulk block temperature. So for the most part Oil temperature will be about the temperature of the coolant, I would guess.

brorjace

... oil temperature varies widely depending on its location in the motor. If it's at the bottom of the pan which is in the airstream of a car on the highway, it may only be 150-180 degrees. If it is anywhere touching the piston, especially near the rings, it may be 300-400 degrees ... at least momentarily.

--- Bror Jace

wtd44

I suspect that the "average" temp of the oil is the key.
Think about the thin film of oil on the cylinder wall at the moment the fuel and air charge explodes to push the piston down. That tiny volume of oil must be at a rather high temperature. This must surely be the reason that a small amount of oil is "burning" as the engine runs, and you will eventually be able to detect that some oil has disappeared from the system.

seelig

but as far as oil temp goes, i think this should explain it:

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html

i know i've posted it in another topic, but these are real facts that may give some the answer they are looking for.

bobpath

There is a much improved SL Oil now on the shelf. Be sure you get it.

easyrider300m

Here is a copy of my post from the forum I started recently called Mechanics: Horror Stories--- you may want to visit that site to see other stories about incompetent and dishonest mechanics: Here is my post:

Once I brought my car in to have a flat fixed and have the oil and filter changed. I could have fixed the flat myself with one of those do it yourself expresso plug kits but figured why not have it done right seeing I needed an oil change anyway. So I left the car with the grease monkey and came back to pick it up at the end of the day. Charged me $12 for the flat repair and $23 for the oil change. The guy that worked on my car wrote up the bill. I paid the bill and headed home. Once home, I checked the dip stick to make sure he filled it up to the proper level. The stick had oil on it as black as coal---the oil obviously wasnt changed. I checked the tire repair and found that he had just inserted a plug like I could have done myself in 2 minutes instead of the proper inner patch. Well, I headed back and asked him why he didnt change the oil. He stated that he must have forgot. I said to him: "Yeah, but you didnt forget to charge me!" I also mentioned the improper flat repair and demanded a full refund which I received. Needless to say, I will not be heading back to that station for any future repair or maintenance work. Some unsuspecting customer would have driven the car for another 3,000 to 7,000 miles with dirty oil and a clogged filter. Dont think that would be too good for your engine.--Motto: Buyer Beware

dmaverick1

I recently took out my buddies Bmw 323 and when I started it the read out said he had another 20000km to go before the next oil change. He later told me that the standard oil change interval is 24000km or 15000miles. That really suprised me, because I have always changed my oil at 5000km or 3000miles. Does anyone know what type of oil Bmw uses, obviously it is some kind of synthetic.

armtdm

I find it very interesting that a few years ago when BMW sold cars they recommend in the US that the oil be changed every 3000 miles, preferably at the dealer of course. Now their cars are sold with a three year maintenance free agreement and they change the oil free of charge (well, nothing is free but anyway) now that they are doing the changes they say 15,000 miles is okay. So, BMW what changed in a few years, are your engines better or were you just ripping off the BMW buyers previously????? Also fairly certain the 15,000 mile chagnes are with a synthetic.

Dealers and manufactrurers are sleazy, IMHO!!!!!!!!!!!!

seelig

for the 330Ci, i totally agree with what armtdm says here. when i saw the sticker and the inclusion of the 3yr maintenace program (that probably costs twice as much as what it's worth) i became suspicious. to say the least, i've put the purchase on hold, until i can find a way to manipulate the price on that part. nice going BMW, you build something i finally like, then try to screw me.

div2

As far back as the late 1960s(a few years ago?), BMW recommended a 4000 mile/6 mo. oil change interval. In 1981 BMW introduced the Service Interval Indicator(SI) on the E28 platform; it was subsequently fitted to the entire range by 1985. The SI calculates service intervals based on the vehicle environment and operating conditions. From that time SI calculations for oil change intervals usually ranged from 7000-9000 miles. The SI interval was increased in 1999 when BMW mandated the use of their own synthetic oil. They also upgraded their oil filter specifications(with no price increase) in order to ensure that they were adequate for the longer drain intervals. The oil specified for all new BMWs (except the M5 and Z8) is a proprietary 5W-30 synthetic which can be purchased at the dealer for @$3/qt. or less with a BMW CCA discount. What a rip-off The M5 and Z8 use a pricey 5W-60 synthetic.
As a matter of fact, BMW was reducing the servicing requirements on their cars years before service was rolled into the price. Brake fluid change intervals were doubled in the early nineties while coolant change intervals increased by 50%.
Now, while there is little doubt that BMW bumped up service intervals as they were assuming servicing costs, I fail to see anything "sleazy" about it. Does anyone have any evidence that the increased intervals are harmful? BMW ensured that oil and coolant were upgraded BEFORE any service intervals were increased.
In short, BMW effectively doubled the oil change interval TWO DECADES AGO- and doubled it again in 1999 with a switch to synthetic oil. Screwed? Right.

dhanley

You're right that some parts of the oil can get to 400F but that's for a fraction of a second, and it's not in the spots that the oil's going to be touching when you do a change.

And i suppose you could pour in frozen oil from your garage, but if you're concerned, why not just put the 4 quarts on the fridge the night before?

BMW's oil changer intervals, are, i think ok. You have to recall:

1) Synthetic is assumed.
2) The have special high-density filters.
3) The engines hold a lot of oil.
4) The cooling system is pretty aggressive.
5) Suppsoedly the engine is tight enough that hardly any fuel or exhaust ever reaches the crankcase.

After 12,000 miles my oil still looks fine in my 328i. It always looked pretty dirty after 1,500 miles in my saurn.

dave

armtdm

I said that prior to 99, or whenever the maintenance became standard for 3 years included in price, the dealers recommended 3000 mile changes, I don't care what the previous poster said about 7000-9000 mile changes prior to 99, the dealers recommended 3000 mile changes. They didn't care what the manual said. Now that they are footing the bill 15,000 is okay. that is sleazy. Why didn't they say 7-9000 (like manual said, when the owner was paying for it!

Who makes their oil for them??? Who even makes a 5W60, lots of additives in that one.

armtdm

If you want to change your own oil you will need the $50 mechanism that resets the interval computer. Unlike other manufacturers that build the reset into the dash etc. BMW requires that you either have the oil changed at their shop so they can reset it or purchase the component.
Plain ole arrogance. It also sounds like the we have a Bimmer dealer on board as feathers have been ruffled!

seelig

well BooHoo........armtdm, you are right about this sleazy thing. people that i know have told me the same thing. and 5w60?

div2

A-HA!!! So the DEALER was pushing a 3K change- what a big surprise... I don't know of a single brand where that doesn't happen with some frequency... BMW NA or AG have NEVER recommended chnging sooner than the SI indicated unless the mileage was not exceeded within 12 months.
And yeah, that Peake reset tool nearly broke me... guess I'll be eating lunch meat for a couple of months;) BTW, I'm not a Bimmer dealer; I've just owned them since 1983...