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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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Comments

  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    Greg882, Engine flush: You know, this is one of those specialized things that, just my opinion, I think you would need to have a specific engine condition in order to consider a power flush. If an engine is taken care of, changing oil will keep it running good. If oil hasn't been changed, and the engine is cruddy, using solvents could cause sludge to end up in the oil pump, causing failure. That might be a case where you want to power flush the engine completely. But I don't know anyone who has ever had that done.

    Tranny fluid change: If you start changing tranny fluid early in the life of the car, my opinion is you are only doing GOOD to protect it! Everyone buying new cars should change auto fluid on a reasonable basis. (20k? 30k?) The majority of trannies would last longer, I think, if people put some care into them. Especially if their driving habits beat up the tranny. Just watch rush hour, and you'll know there are millions of cars that fit this description!

    N8wvi, number one, motors tend to like to run under a load, versus no load. Under no load, they are somewhat "unstable." The worst case scenario is revving an engine that is not in gear. Bad, very bad. But I think mainly, an idling engine is running hotter. Fluids are being pumped slower, in older cars with belt driven fans, less air is being drawn through the radiator. Realistically? I've had cars that I've idled through my lunch (20 minutes/ 30 minutes) because it was winter, and my car was the only getaway from work that I had. Never had a problem. Of course, I'm religious about oil changes, radiator fluid changes, etc.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    Heres a couple of engine flush tidbits...
    Every couple of oil changes I add a half quart of kerosene to the dirty oil and let the engine idle for about 20 minutes and then let it drain thoroughly, usually overnight, then the next morning on goes a new filter and new oil and I'm done. Kerosene is a solvent that still has oiling properties and gets in the small spaces to dissolve sludge better (in my opinion anyway) than the other solvents that are sold for the purpose (usually about the same weight anyway) and helps the oil drain better.
    Another option is just drain the dirty oil, (don't change the filter yet, unless you're REALLY into results, you'll be surprised how dirty it will be after a couple days) fill with new oil and drive it for a couple days and then drain oil/replace filter and there ya go you've done your own flush safely,,,oil is a pretty good cleaner all by itself especially if you sub a quart of the 15w-40 shell oil (Rotella-T) made for diesels,,
    this works good and is still cheaper than most commercial places, (and you do it yourself so you know you didn't screw it up!!)
    I believe the main thing is being regular, sort of like the old folks, they know a thing or two that deserves a listen...
    see y'all
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    "I assume that by flushing it the crap can become lodged in filter and pan and unless you drop it after a flush you could be causing more harm."

    Automatic transmission flush machines replace fluid by removing it and adding fresh with the machine connected in series in a cooler line. They don't add to or reduce "crap" in the filter or pan, nor do they cause harm. The filter should be replaced and pan cleaned prior to flushing.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    Zr2rando, you are running your engine far too often with a solvent that is stripping the internal parts of oil. A flush is good once or twice for a dirty engine. What you are doing is probably causing direct and immediate harm to the engine!
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    ...with guitarzan that some auto trannies have become so proprietary, so picky that the use of a foreign fluid (even a superior, synthetic one) is something of a gamble. Still I'd like to know about individual cases as I'd switch if I knew it was safe ... and I drove an automatic (which I don't).

    Ugh, I really distrust any kind of quick engine flushes. My idea of an engine flush is one or more short interval oil & filter changes (and including a quart or more of a detergent-intensive 15W40 like Delo 400 or Rotella) is a good idea. You might also considering a detergent like the CD-2 detergent and leaving it in for a few hundred miles.

    --- Bror Jace
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I'm recently really in your fan club! I couldn't agree with you more.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    Good mornin everyone!
    Think about it, I am using 1/2 qt of kerosene in 4.5 gts of dirty 10w30 oil. The dirty oil is a lot thicker than the clean 10w30 oil was, I am basically using it to help the old oil drain better, adding 1/2 qt does not do any heavy solvent action, I don't like any kind of fast flush either, I don't consider this a fast flush.
    The idea about a short interval oil change is a good safe thing to do too
    see y'all
  • seeligseelig Member Posts: 590
    you're wasting your time here. some people have ideas that they believe in, and will never truly understand the benefit of engine cleaning. it's what makes me wish i had gone into the auto repair field. reading some of the advice given here and in other topics (for example pst.957) i see $$$......<:}
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    If the previous poster simply meant that a tranny fluid flush is nothing more then a replacement of all the fluid then chaning the filter prior to the replacement seems fine. However, many of these flush systems are advertised as a cleaning system to remove varnish build up and crud from the transmission and torque converter. If, in fact, it is intended to clean the system and not just replace fluid than I feel strongly that the pan and filter should be replaced after the flush!
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    Does anyone know any details about this new standard?
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
    Sorry for 1.5 day delay - had to find the old invoice:

    The costs of transmission service for my Malibu at Firestone:

    $49.59 labor, plus
    $2.50 disposal fee, plus
    $80 new transmission filter, minus
    $25 "special friend service discount" (coupon).

    Total $107.09 before 6% sale tax.

    The prices are for April 14, 2001. However, the Malibu filter is unusually expensive. The labor rate in the shop, currently is $85 per hour, also not typical: CT is an expensive place...

    As to about watching the Firestone mechanics: well, this is technically possible. They are working with open doors, and, any case, glass is everywhere aroung.

    However, I would not do this. Personally, I would not like to be closely watched at work, and, probably even would make more mistakes. So why would I to do this with these mechanics? Either I trust them, or would rather look for another shop.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Sorry for this non related post but as you are a Bimmer advocate I am searching for an owner's manual for a 1988 528E.

    Any suggestions on where I can locate one?

    thanks
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    I'm pretty sure you can order it from bmw--there should be a part number for it.

    dave
  • sinjin_dogsinjin_dog Member Posts: 84
    That's pretty good price, $49.59 for the labor.
    My Toyota dealer wanted $85.
    Guess I will give a call to my local Fstone for the next time.
    Thanks
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    wtd444, I have a fan club? Cool. Can you screen my groupies and weed out the especially icky girls? >;^)

    I think that all Mercon V ATFs are a synthetic blend ... at least the ones I've seen ... like the Quaker State stuff. Maybe someone makes a non-synthetic ATF that meets Mercon V standard?? Seeing the direction in which lubricants are headed and what is asked of ATFs in particular, I'd expect them all to use "synthetic" stocks to one extent or another. They just might not bother to advertise this ... for fear of offending the 'old guard' do-it-yourselfers who still think of anything with the words "synthetic" on it to be some form of voodoo just waiting to make your car erupt oil out of every opening imaginable. >;^)

    As for kerosene in the role of engine, I still think it's an unnecessary gamble. When I was much younger, I used one of those kerosene motor flushes on an older, Chevy V-8 engine while I was having it's replacement built (high-performance style) and a week later the head gasket blew. And just recently, I spoke to someone who had a nearly identical experience with a totally different car. I suppose if you are only using 1/2 as much kerosene it's a little safer but I don't think the end result justifies it at all, especially when you'll have heavy traces of that kerosene in your crankcase even after the oil change.

    Yes, it's nice to have a motor that's VERY clean on the inside but I don't think the risk is worth it. 10W30 (or any other weight of oil) with a few thousand miles on it shouldn't be any thicker than new stuff, maybe even a tad thinner. It's only when conventional oil has been left in a really, really long time (8-10,000+ miles or so) that it begins to oxidize and thicken. But at that stage you are seriously abusing your motor ... and I don-t think ANY of us here are doing that.

    If I were to clean out my motor with some additive other than the aforementioned CD-2 detergent, I might add a little ATF to the crankcase, run the car for up to an hour and then drain the whole mess. But so far, I haven't even felt the need to do this.

    Having a little sludge residue in a few quiet corners of your engine really isn't hurting anything ... but using methods that are aggressive enough to dislodge ALL of it certainly could. It's a balancing act and despite my propensity towards anal retentive fussiness, I've really come to terms with the occasional brown streaks and tiny amber puddles I can see when shining a light into my oil cap filler hole on the car with over 100,000 miles on it. I don't bother them and they don't bother me. >:^)

    --- Bror Jace
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    that the main thing is being regular. Synthetic can go longer, dino goes shorter ,both have a limit, and as long as you watch that you are doing good.
    I think that as long as I am changing oil regularly any "kero-flush" I do really only helps drain more than actually any cleaning...now if I had gone longer between changes,,,I'd never do it that way, I would however do a couple of short term oil intervals but that would be it. Some of this stuff just gets to the point of ever-dwindling returns..
    ITS FINALLY FRIDAY!
    See Y'all
  • kansankansan Member Posts: 115
    Expert tire has an oil change special; filter, 5 quarts of Kendall 10W30, and a lube for $9.99. Their filter is a house filter made by Purolator. Does anyone know anything about the quality of Kendall motor oil? I've heard the name, but don't remember ever hearing anything about it, good or bad.
    Thanks,
    Ken
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Unless you are on a project development team for testing your oil against competitors or know one of these guys you are out of luck. 20 years I knew a lube oil guy in industry who said Shell (at the time) and Havoline were the two best. If you are changing oil every 3K you could probably tinkle in the crankcase and be OK.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    I have a friend in the oil business, and he told me that Kendall is pure Pennsylvania crude, and very good quality oil. This was probably 15 years ago he told me this.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Is (was) parrafin based which in the old-old-old days ('50's) was a better natural lubricant but tended to gunk up. Quaker State was always thought to be the worst. We're talking over 40 years ago though.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I suspect that any national or international oil company brand that has earned the right to display the "seal" of approval from SAE/ISO would be a reasonable bet to be perfectly good for a modern engine. Kendall is a brand of very long standing. That is, it has a long history of being on the market, and that alone is a positive indicator.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Fine oil and as noted above, every 3000 miles just about anyhing will work fine for 100,000 miles
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    I had a 1976 Datsun 280Z that I used Kendall 20w-50 for most of the life of the car, used Castrol at the end...I lived near Pensacola,FL and sold the car with 189000 miles in 1986. It never burned any oil , I changed it every 3000 miles, never had any loss of comp on any cyl's and never had any oil related probs...
    Never heard anything bad about it from anyone...
    Most mfg'rs don't recommend that weight these days though, but if you live in Florida, go fer it!
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    Sorry for the delay... I've been busy. I would ckeck with a dealer first. http://www.koalamotorsport.com/ has a used 1987 manual, but it's a bit pricey. The 1988 528e is pick of the litter; it has the "Super eta" engine. I'ts a very pleasnt car to drive. The second generation 5er is one of my all time favorites. Let me know how your search goes.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Just saw a few cases of Pennzoil 5W20 tonight at KMart. The box said "with Pennzane" like their other dino-based oils. Standard yellow bottle.

    The box did say something about a new "GF-3 formula" or something.

    The 5W20 was sitting on the same display as the other weights with a price sign of about 20 bucks, so I assume that it's a) dino-based oil and b) same price as the other Pennzoil dino-based oils.

    Just thought I'd mention this, since folks are having a fairly tough time locating 5W20.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    You were right! My engine sealed back up. Now I'm happy, I can keep using full synthetic.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Hope that it continues to work well!
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    BlueDevils, I've seen 5W20 at some K-mart stores in this area for many months now ... but it is only at SOME local K-mart stores ... which is weird.

    So far I've seen Motorcraft 5W20 and Pennzoil 5W20. I wonder how long it will be before the other sellers get into the act in a major way? I think I've heard rumors that just about ever oil brand had a 5W20 formulation in the works but so far ... zippo.

    --- Bror Jace
  • jeffmust2jeffmust2 Member Posts: 811
    I would appreciate any recommended vendors for oil analysis.
    I've checked a few websites (Titan, Blackstone, etc.); they all seem to charge $25-30 per analysis so I guess this is standard.

    In advance thanks for any tips!
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Why is it SL oil? What happened to SK? Was that a standard that was developed but never implemented?
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    a Si either. Went from SE, SF, SG, SH, to SJ and skipped I
  • gyegye Member Posts: 31
    Changed oil with new SL 5w-30 on my 97 Accord and 01 Odyssey, does feel smoother running engine compare with previous SJ oil change. I hope it's because of better oil rather than my imagination.
  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    It definitely is your imagination, BUT the same thing happens to me every time I do an oil change!
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Since the SL's are all/mostly semi-synthetic, you might be able to notice a SLIGHT difference in the way the engine revs.

    --- Bror Jace
  • mpynempyne Member Posts: 120
    I went to get my oil changed at Valvoline and was told that my 2002 toyota corolla was leaking oil really bad and to take it to the dealer. Took it to the dealer and was told that it was glycerin that they spray on the engine when it was new???? Ive been checking the oil before and there was no sign on losing oil(no puddles dipstick looks good) The dealer did the oil change and said everything was okay(no oil leak) should i be worried????
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    In a Lubricants World interview, the president of Jiffy Lube International takes on the issue of
    extended drain intervals. Mark Graham is president of Jiff Lube International, the foremost fast lube chain owned by Pennzoil-Quaker State (PQS), the number one engine oil marketer. He has also recently become chairman of the board for the Automotive Aftermarket Industry Association (AAIA), the premier representative for the automotive aftermarket. In a September 2001 Lubricants World interview, Graham took on the issue of extended drain intervals, revealing
    exactly why he opposes them. When asked what issues the AAIA is currently dealing with, Graham replied, &#147;There is a significant issue out there that affects anybody that utilizes
    lubricants, and that is extended drains. The fact that consumers to day have been creating a larger spread in between their oil changes has had a significant effect on anybody in the oil change business. Everything that we can do to bring the oil change interval back into a logistical time-frame, the better off we are.&#148; Graham goes on to explain that OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) have &#147;confused&#148; the issue by telling people that 6,000 to 7.500-mile intervals are fine as long as they are not &#147;severe service&#148; drivers. In his opinion, consumers are
    confused over what makes a &#147;severe service&#148; driver. &#147;At (PQS) we use a number internally that if we [shorten the drain interval] by 100 miles [for each car serviced], it would mean an additional $20 million in revenue for the company.&#148; Proclaims Graham. &#147;The revenue benefits are equally significant for everybody else. That&#146;s a lot of money. Jiffy Lube also estimates that if we increased one car a day [per shop] in our system, that&#146;s $33 million in revenue. "Looking at all this from another angle, if we could move our customers to get one more oil change per year, it&#146;s worth $294 million for the oil change alone, and $441 million in revenue, when you include the ancillary products and services customers typically buy along with the oil change.&#148; &#147;We need to educate consumers on reducing the extended drain, and then we [Jiffy Lube] certainly want to out-market our competitors,&#148; says Graham. &#147;But before we do that, we have to get into the heads of the consumers that a 5,000- or 6,000-, 7,000-mile oil change is not OK, and
    we need to tell them why. And we need to get them to understand that normal vs. severe really means.&#148;
  • 4x4man4x4man Member Posts: 222
    "But before we do that, we have to get into the heads of the consumers that a 5,000- or 6,000-, 7,000-mile oil change is not OK, and we need to tell them why."

    Hmmmm, why is it not ok?? Because you are losing money??? Must be feelin' the hurts now that more people are following OEM scheduled oil changes, not theirs. My truck (2500HD with 8.1L) doesn't even have an oil change schedule, states to follow the oil change light, don't exceed 1 year or 12k on the oil.
    One thing I can gaurantee is that this is one truck that will be in NO ONES quicky oil change computers, let alone my wifes new car!!

    Good article, where did you pull it from??

    Bob
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    Yes, and while the underling neanderthals are stipping your drain plug and under/overfilling the sump, the head doofus will try to convince you that you need an air filter/PCV/wiper blades/etc. What a racket!
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    and will continue to work. Its cheap, convenient, and the customer walks away with a good feeling a $2 FRAM Filter. There is no reason for anyone to tell Joe Sixpack any different and no reason for him to question his current thinking. Hey-its good for the economy and more is better!!
  • yooper53yooper53 Member Posts: 286
    Thanks very much for the article. Its just as so often stated in previous posts.
  • sinjin_dogsinjin_dog Member Posts: 84
    Speaking of Jiffy Lube, this lady from my work with Camry does her oil change by jiffy lube every 3000 miles (mostly highway miles).
    This lady does not know much about cars, she does whatever jiffy ask her to change, air filter, coolant, trans fluid, windshield wiper, etc. All these at full price. Easy money.
  • jeffmust2jeffmust2 Member Posts: 811
    Jiffy follows the old computer saying as to why IBM has so many clients - the "FUD" Factor.

    As in "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" of what will happen to your company and your career if you buy hardware/software/services from a non-IBM vendor.

    That saying was very true until at least the 1990s and still exists for some unenlightened companies today.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Good quotes, armtdm. >:^)

    My only problem with telling people they can go longer than 3,000 or 5,000 miles between oil & filter changes is that some people push those limits as it is and end up neglecting their cars.

    I pulled the oil filler cap off an early nineties Honda Civic (not unlike mine) and there was a 1/4" layer of crud on its underside ... and the car only had 80,000 miles on the clock. I bet I could count on one hand the number of changes that the vehicle had during its life.

    I think owners of such cars should be forced to watch their engines be disasembled, all the goo and crud scraped off/out of it and then forced to EAT IT!

    --- Bror Jace
  • sinjin_dogsinjin_dog Member Posts: 84
    I just bougt a case of 10/40 from Kragen at $4.99 a bottle. They come in smaller bottle and says "motor cycle". I got them for my gardener(professional) friend who changes his oil once a week using regular Castrol. He uses Honda lawn mower.
    What do you (brorjace and adc100) guys know about this even more specialized synthetics?
    Thanks
  • n8wvin8wvi Member Posts: 43
    You may want to check that. The smaller bottles (1 pint) are two cycle oil for equipment where you mix the gas and oil. The oil is not 'changed' on this equipment. The 10/40 motorcycle oil comes in a 1 qt bottle. I have a John Deere push mower in which I've used Mobil1 10/30 for years and have been very pleased. I believe the new 4 stroke motorcycle oils have more zinc since there's no worry about catalytic converters. The 10/40 also has no 'friction modifiers' for use in bikes with wet clutches.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    with n8wvi.

    Later,
    Al
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Me too. The higher-performance/race oils have usually had higher amounts of Zinc Phosphate (ZDDP) in them to stave off wear under extreme stress.

    With the reduced amounts of this additive in SJ automobile motor oils, these specialty formulations become that much more special.

    --- Bror Jace
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    I just got Speedvision and the only thing that is turning me into a total Speedzombie glued to the TV set is the forgettable bobsled coverage and the stupid Bowflex infomercials. One infomercial which I did find of interest, however, was the one for Z-max.

    Now I wasn't born yesterday, not even the day before, so I know that these infomercials are masters at the halftruth, the mistruth and things completely foreign to the truth but does anyone here know anyhting about this stuff. Anyone want to admit that they bought it? >;^)

    The last time I plunked down my money for snake oil was for Prolong ... and I'll never do it again. I WOULD however, like to know more about this Zmax if anyone out there knows what this stuff really is (PTFE, ZDDP, something else) and more importantly, who is suing them for false advertising. >;^)

    --- Bror Jace
  • mbbenzmbbenz Member Posts: 47
    http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.htm


    Also, I heard somewhere that the new API SL petroleum oil is really synthetic blend? Is that true? I was checking out different brands of SL at Walmart and none of them says they are synthetic blend. Can anyone verify this?

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