No use arguing with a devoted Bimmer owner. You will never acknowledge the point and as noted in your profile you have owned them since 83. They are great cars, I just cannot live with the arrogant salespeople and especially service people. Guess that is why, although I would like my M3 I do not own one. You win!!!
Oh, the dealers still try to get you to come in and change the oil every 3,000 miles--it makes more money for the dealer.
They all do this to some extent. Many manufacturers now allow gerater then 3,000 mile changes, but the dealers push for the 3,000 mile thing.
For the free service interval, obviously, the dealers will have a harder time scamming the manufacturer.
True about the oil reset thing. If you really want to change it yourself and not shell out the $50 you can do it with a wire; it's just a connect of two pins. Of course it would be nice if you could do this from the dash.
I would definitely call it dishonest or misleading or something. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
There is definitely something wrong with this...If dealers recommended 3000 mile oil change intervals and that's what customers did, and then BMW changed the interval to 15,000 miles at the same time as it decides to pay for customers' scheduled maintenance.
It's probably an indication that dealers and/or the manufacturer were specifying too-frequent oil changes.
I don't think anyone would argue that a car is better off long-term with dino oil and 3k changes vs. synthetic oil and 15k changes (probably using the same filter if done at the dealer).
Yes, the manufacturer provides a benefit to the customer. Free scheduled maintenance is a big benefit. But the customer is not getting 100% of the pie, as the manufacturers & dealers would like you to believe. The manufacturer is likely recovering some of the cost in other ways (higher MSRPs, for example) and is minimizing the cost in certain ways (longer fluid change intervals that are, at least in the case of the 15k oil change interval, too long in my opinion).
div2, are you disagreeing with that? I'm with armtdm totally on this one.
If a customer had asked a service advisor at ANY brand dealership 2 years ago if a 15,000 mile oil change interval was okay, the service advisor probably would have told the customer that this was a VERY bad idea and that much more frequent oil - AND filter - change intervals were safer and better for the customer's vehicle.
That's the other thing here-- even if the oil is in okay shape after 15,000 miles, what about the filter? Is BMW recommending additional filter changes during the 15k mile interval? Most of the knowledgeable folks here (I'm not one of them) seem to think that a filter should not be used beyond 5000 miles, or 7500 at the most.
Dealer are engaged in a for-profit business, not a charity. They want and need to sell their service, and the more than better.
I am not sure, though, that the 3,000 mile oil changes provide sizeable profit. Not sure even if the fast-lube business is profitable at all for dealerships, with their much more serious cost structure. Live seldom is so straightforward.
At least the Buick / Pontiac / GMC dealership where I bought my Regal changes oil for free every 3,000 miles, as long as the original buyers own the cars. They also toss in a free car wash with any service, including the free oil change, warranty service, etc. And they are sending letters and are calling at home, to remind that it is about time to use the free service.
On the other hand, they are advertising windshield wiper inserts replacement - for $39. Some of other prices also are ridiculous.
So it probably pays for them to lure customers by the free oil change, then sell other services.
Any case, I am avoiding the dealership. Would rather not standing himiliation - at least not for the sake of the free oil change :-)
BMW's had long intervals for quite awhile--7,500 was standard in '92, i recall seeing, 5,000 miles in the mid 80's--they've gone up rather steadily over the years.
I don't think BMW stretched the interval coincident with the free service offer.
So some dealers try to get you to come back every 3000--so what? They'd love you to buy a car every 2 years, too. And the grocery store would love for you to come buy milk every day in 1 quart containers. And dillard's wants you to buy new clothes every year to keep up with "fashion."
There was a post recently on one of the Edmunds boards about the Audi dealer who gave free oil changes for the first three years. The A4 comes with synthetic but the dealer stated that the free oil change was dino, if you wanted synthetic pay a price or bring your own.
Guess that is not sleazy either.
Point of previous posts was simple. Manual said 7-9000 mile changes dealer recommended 3000 and owner was to pay every 3000 miles. . Manual now say 15,000 mile changes and first 3 years free Dealer says don't come back to see me for a change until 15,000. If you want it before that you must pay.
Chee, sounds like a good profit making business to me. No sleazy tactics there.
Dealers who encourage un-needed service are legion. Why is BMW especially evil because some of their dealers push extra service? Does BMW have some shady arrogant dealers? Sure; but name one make that doesn't.
Never said Bimmer dealers were especially evil, (arrogant yes) simply pointing out one of their (in my opinion, sleazy campaigns) All (dealers/manufacturers) have some sleazy practices
Again, call a truce and back to topic.
Who makes the BMW oil and again a 5W60 has just got to be loaded with additives to get that weight range. Never heard of a 5W60 by any producer. I would go 15,000 between chagnes (fitler at 7,500) with a 0W, 5W or 10W 30 eight synthetic oil but I would not go beyond 7,500 with a 5W60. Is the recommendation for the Z8 15,000 as well?
What brand of oil do you prefer? I just bought a used car (70,000 miles) and I want to put the best oil I can in it. I'm hesitant to add synthetics at this mileage (possible leaks), so dino brands only. Also, should I use an oil flush first?
I just bought a Honda with 170,000 miles on it, and I use full synthetic with no leakes. I would consider using syn. If it leaks, you can always go back to dyno.
It's now time to make a decision as to oil. At 4000 I preliminarily decided to stick with Wal-Mart's $11.88 oil and filter change, insisting on SuperTech rather than Fram filters. (They will substitute if you hang large signs stating "No Fram" on every part of the car.) I'm still thinking that a 4000 mile change with SuperTech oil (QuakerState) and filter (Champion Labs) is going to give pretty good protection. The other option would be to spend $30 bucks for any synthetic oil and filter (that they carry) and go to a 7500 change (maximum allowed under the warranty). Or I could substitute Wal-Marts syn. oil (also Quaker State) and their filter for about $24.00 without checking fluid levels.
I've kept most cars to around the 150K mark and have generally had other parts go bad and deep six the car before the engine gives out. Missouri's climate is not so horrible in the winter that the even dino oil shouldn't flow relatively quickly.
Your thoughts please. (BTW-- I don't really believe that any brand of dino oil is a lot better than any other as long as it's API approved and has an ILSAC rating. My only absolute no-no is to stay away from Fram at all costs.)
artdm : i still don't get it. If there was no free service, 15,000 mile changes, and some dealers tried to get you to coem back for 3,000 mile changes, would that be sleazy?
How about manufacturers that force you to do 3,000 mile changes, so as nto to void the warranty because you're draining out perfectly good synthetic and not damaging the engine.
bluedevils: I couldnt' disagree more
Well, i have data to back up my position, and you don't.
Its hard for me to relate to the message because I can't fathom loving a car and yet looking at 11.88 oil changes at "welcome to walmart." I would go with a trustworthy mechanic, a good filter (Pure One or Mobil 1) and a good syn oil like Mobil 1 and an oil change of about 6K . I personally like 10K with a filter in between.
The guys can shoot me now, but I have very different arrangements in each of my cars. I definitely recommend at least a blend.
Why am I not a Purist, I try to meet what the car needs. I own older vehicles so differences on oils are more obvious. I found a 25% synthetic blend mixture works better than pure dino, whether purchased that way, or mixed yourself. Mine all use 4 quarts so this is easy. Tests I read a few years ago showed that a blend would give about 75% of the protection without seal leaking on older cars.
My Dodge uses the synthetic blend, and every other summer I put in a PFT additive for one oil change. It has had a rough engine after a fender bender (repaired), and this arrangement keeps it quiet cheaply. It's got 170,000 miles so I don't want to spend a lot of money this close to its end of life. I've not had any clogging problems using a standard filter. I wouldn't use a high density one like Mobile one with PFT.
My 1991 Mazda is a jewel of a 4 cylinder I sure hope that the 2003 Mazda 6 gets some of this fun back into their engines. I use a synthetic blend and add the additive Lubegard. It has been noticeably quieter since I put it in. It was humming before. Now it purrs. Starts great in the cold too.
My Subaru is a very high temp, fast revving engine, it starts much easier in winter, gets better gas mileage and seems to work less on pure synthetic. And yes, I have had some leaking issues at 120,000. But I have had seals leak at that mileage when I was running pure conventional oil.
As far as brands go, I have found Mobile, Valvoline, and Quaker State, to be very good. However if I always changed my own oil without any compunction I would choose Valvoline. My mechanic told me about a 150,000 mile engine that he saw while changing some seals. It had Valvoline since day one and the cylinder walls were completely clean. Cars with other brands were dark. Since then he only stocks Valvoline in his shop.
For cold winter nights though, nothing beats a block heater. Engines start easier, no rough running until warm, and heat comes on quicker. I think this really extends engine life.
The proprietary BMW 5W-30 is rumored to be made by Castrol; though BMW states you may top off with Mobil 1 or Valvoline synthetic in a pinch. I've been told that the oil is different from Syntec- the specs are set by BMW. I DO know that BMW motorcycle oils are different in composition from other oils out there. I was wrong about the M oil; it's 10W-60- and I believe that the interval is still @15000 miles. One interesting data point. BMW used to specifically advise against using synthetic oil until the first Oil Service at @9000 miles. BMW claimed that using mineral oil facilitated piston ring break-in. I've been told by those that should know that BMW changed piston/bore tolerances and/or bore patterns when they switched to synthetic in 1999. What I know for certain is that older Bimmers aren't as fond of the BMW Synthetic- at least from a consumption standpoint. My 1995 Three Series' manual states that 15W-50 is OK down to 0F; 5W-30 is only to be used below 25F. I switched from Mobil 1 15W-50 to BMW 5W-30 and my oil consumption doubled- from 5400 miles/qt. to 2700 miles/qt. A friend with a 1991 850i had an identical experience. OTOH, my wife's 1997 5er uses not a drop between changes, and it doesn't care whether it's BMW 5W-30 or Mobil 1 15W-50. Finally, since BMW Synthetic is only $3/qt., I switched my 128000 mile 1993 Pathfinder to it as well. Guess what? Reduced oil consumption as compared to Mobil 1 5W-30- I went from 6000 miles/qt. to no oil consumed over 6000 miles. Go figure.
Dhanley, it is sleazy to ask people who buy your cars to change the oil at 3,000 miles. It is taking advantage of the historical fact that it USED to be necessary, and that the non-car savvy don't know that it is no longer necessary.
Manufacturers have never forced anyone to change their oil. According to US law, if the car breaks, and the mfr. claims it was due to lack of oil maintenance, the burden of proof is on the mfr. Sleazy scare tactics, either implied in the owners manual, or expressed by dealer personnel.
This is for the sake of argument. I really haven't decided--but:
1. There are private mechanics that I trust implicitly for cars out of warranty. However, for the most part their first rate guys are doing other things than oil changes. Usually its the kid who draws those. You could argue that they're better trained by the old timers but I'm not sure of that. The one thing that Wal-Mart does provide me is with an oil change database that can be accessed from various stores. If it weren't for showing proof of requisite service, I'd still be changing my own.
2. Not to replicate the filters posts, but I'm not convinced that an especially dense filtering medium is all "good". To quote on the Mobil 1 filter from the MiniMopar filter study:
"Mobil 1 M1-301 Like the Champ filter, this filter is made by Champion Labs. However, it uses a unique end plate and a thicker can that make it the strongest filter available for wide distribution retail sale. It also uses a synthetic media,which inproves filtration and flow. I'm happy to say that this filter is NOT a fake. It is definitely a unique design. It uses a synthetic fiber element that can filter out very small particles and is very strong. It is rated just under the Purolator Pure One as far as filtering capability, but is still very much above conventional paper filters. It also has a very strong construction to withstand high pressure spikes during start-up. However, as with all Mobil 1 products, expect to pay 2 - 3 times as much for this filter.
I have received many reports of these filters failing at high pressures. It seems that the seam where the backplate crimps to the case can split."
3. I've read all the arguments about whether Mobil 1 or Amsoil are better than other PAO's like Quaker State, whether one can trust a rebrander like Wal-Mart to not switch without warning,etcetcetc. The fact remains that synthetics (even including blends) still account for less than 10% of the market and for the most part engines can outlast all of the other components that make you unload a car after 150K.
To amplify your comments. Look around. There are more and more cars, some with fairly high mileage sitting on used car lots. Some of them are in pretty good shape.
Only about 10% ran anything else but dino oil. Out of all of those cars how many of them are driven by people who even know what PAO is? Like it or not, most of us (me included) who wander around these posts probably need to get a life. Most people who buy Castrol syn? are probably perfectly happy whether or not its PAO or severely hydrocracked.
I have a 97 Cavalier with 70,000 miles on it. Noticed some hairline scratches and found a bottle of that Turtle Wax stuff that color matches and has the attached lipstick. Rubbed the lipstick on the scratches, put on the polish, and by God it improved things, even though it was a pinkish red and my car was orange. I'd be afraid to post that on the Zaino/no Zaino polish/wax boards because I'm sure that the stuff is really horrible and that twenty people would go after me with a big stick.
I also have a 20 year old daughter that didn't understand what a dipstick was for. She first ran her 90 Prizm almost dry and then when I warned her put in a new quart of oil every time she filled up. I got things to the right level for her, but the oil light came on and the blow by could knock you over when you opened the filler cap at idle. Guess what, I poured in some STP lookalike from K-Mart which thickened things up a bit and the engine is still going strong 20K later at 170K miles (I know, it's a Toyota-- don't tell the sludgists.)
When her boyfriend put it into the ditch last winter, I got a quarter panel and grill put on plus a new Earl Schieb paint job all for under $700. Would I admit that to the folks debating paint jobs? Hell no, but it looks a lot better than it did, and the Scheib paint hasn't so much as begun to peel even though I don't think she's ever washed it.
When you get to that age you have a beater. And a beater with a pristine engine and no transmission is no better than a beater with a marginal engine and no transmission.
Like the oil filter paper expert says. WalMart specifies good filter specs to Champion Labs, the oil is Quaker State (and if it's Valvoline tomorrow it probably won't make a big difference) and the idiot kid who pulls the plug on the pan is probably the idiot kid who pulled the plug on the drain pan at the dealer's last week.
Auto manufacturers need to update their oil change interval requirements to include the use of synthetics. I certainly agree that dyno should be changed out every 3,000 miles because it's totally worthless by this point. But there's absolutely no reason, regardless of driving habits, to change syn at 3K. That's like buying a 6 pack of beer, drinking two of them, then throwing the other 4 away. Any full syn can easily go 10K between changes regardless of your type of driving. Some folks like to change out their syn at around 5-7K to get that "feel good" feeling and that's OK, but it's really not necessary to change it out before 10K.
I agree it's fairly easy to make the engine the longest lasting component in the car, provided you maintain it well. I also think it's the most important component to maintain because it's the most expensive to repair or replace. If your car has an automatic tranny, when it goes, that will probably be the one thing that makes you decide to get rid of the car. Repairing or replacing auto trannys can get very expensive. Luckily, my car has a standard tranny, which is fairly easy and inexpensive to repair. Usually the only thing to go wrong with a standard is the clutch, which is no big deal to fix. So what's this mean? I think it means that provided the engine is well maintained, any given car equipped with an automatic will be limited by the tranny. Nobody seems to be able to build an auto tranny that will last for 200-300K. If you have car equipped with a standard, it will probably be limited by how long the owner can put up with the nickle and dime stuff. My Honda has 170 grand on it, and so far so good.
To each his own. You have given thought to your methods and who among us is to say they are not right. I just come up with a different approach and that is to change approx every 10K with Mobil 1 with a filter in between. I feel there is virtually no danger of loading up the Mobil 1, or Pure One filter and having a problem with it. Just to hedge my bet I change at about 5K (filter). I also think that there is some insurance against an overheated engine suffering damage with syn. There have been documented events n races whereby people have finished races with no coolant and engine temps of approachinbg 400F with no engine damage.
I bought my Honda about 2 weeks ago. It didn't leak at all when I bought it. About a week ago, I changed the oil and filter and put in full syn. I just noticed today that it has a leak now. Since it didn't leak before, I'm thinking the previous owner used conventional oil. I guess my first plan will be to see if I can find exactly where it's leaking. If it's from a seal that wouldn't be too difficult to replace, I would do this, as I would prefer to continue using full syn. If I find out it's leaking from a seal which would require some major work to replace, I guess I'll have to try switching to conventional oil. What's the best dyno out there? A long time ago, before I started using syn, I used Pennzoil. I never had any problems with it, but I've heard more negitive things about it than positive. I even had a mechanic tell me that with every engine he had apart where Pennzoil was used, there was a thin, gray film of sludge built up throughout the engine. He said this was only present in the Pennzoil motors. The one dyno I've seen more positive comments about is Valvoline. What are your thoughts?
Sometimes after the varnish/gunk is removed from gaskets and seals they will leak but they can also swell or re-seal themselves as well, this has hapenned to me with synthetics so wait a while and see. Also, if the seepage is minimal why bother spending the money to fix it.
I have also seen the vague complaints about Pennzoil but have the impression that this brand is quite good, as are almost all the major brands. I recently had the pan off a 3.8L GM engine with 125,000 miles. Pennzoil 10W-30, changed at ~2,500 mile intervals, had always been used. This engine was exceptionally clean; there was no sludge or residue in the pan whatsoever - it could easily have been used for one of the Pennzoil commercials.
In another topic several months ago, Bottgers, you posted details of a procedure for changing ATF. You described changing it in the normal fashion and then flushing the torque converter by pumping out through a cooler line. I have since used this excellent advice. Thanks very much.
csandste, I see what you're saying and I know a routine of synthetic oil isn't for everyone ... but I know it's for me and I know I drive my car on the hard side. That's running it through the gears and high-speed cruising on interstates.
My solution is syn (right now Redline) and an interval of about 7,500 miles. I could go further and change the filter in between but this is messy ... and I'd rather just do a full change and get rid of everything in the crankcase.
My '95 Civic developed a minor leak in the back of the motor when I switched to 10W30 Pennzoil Dino and then switched back to Valvoline syn only 3 weeks later (I used it just to flush everything out of my motor). I have since switched to Redline and the leak stopped. Maybe it was because of the polyol's effect on seals? Maybe it was because of a leak at the filter (which I doubt). I'm not sure. The car used ZERO oil in between changes for the first 100,000 miles and now uses a quart every 3-4 months.
I know Pennzoil (and Quaker State) use to have a bad reputation because of the amount of parrafins in their formulas ... which used to leave a waxy residue inside the motor but they've been reformulated many times since then. Those parrafin-heavy formulas would never pass SH or SJ standards.
1) Those of us that push our cars on a daily basis. My Celica redlines at 7900 or close. Friction increases exponentially versus rpms. Thus, I think it is good to use the best lubricant available.
2) Wintertime: Depending on your engine, and depending how in-tune you are with it, compare 10W30 on a cold day with 5W30. The 5W30 idle will be smoother on startup. And you may or may not notice that the same viscosity in the synthetic will be smoother. Protection, that's all it is about.
There has been talk in here to the effect that, given proper care, the engine can be made to outlast the auto tranny. I totally agree with that, but is there any way to prolong the life of the transmission?
I know that changing the fluid and filter of the transmission on the proper interval is a must, but what else, if anything, would be effective? And, also, what is the best interval for the fluid and filter changes on the transmissions? I suppose it would be like oil changes, too often wouldn't hurt, but really wouldn't do any good either. Do they make synthetic transmission fluids too?
How about a "sooped up" transmission fluid cooling system? Is there a way to improve the factory system in order to prolong transmission life?
Finally, what is the life expectancy of the modern automatic transmission, assuming normal conditions of use and average maintenance? My son in law's GMC pickup has about 230K miles on it, and he has NEVER had the fluid changed on his automatic transmission since buying the truck brand new. That certainly cannot be typical, can it?
I plan to leave the full syn in for the full 10K miles before I do anything. It's a fairly slow leak. The best thing would be for it to reseal itself, I'll just have to wait and see.
Have any you ever used Valvoline Max Life? It supposedly is formulated for high mileage cars (75,000 miles or more). I'm just wondering if any of you have used it and noticed any benefits.
Spokane
I'm glad some of my advice could be helpful. It's certainly a lot less expensive to do this yourself, and there's no risk of some goober who doesn't care about your car screwing it up. The one time I had my tranny flushed, I had to take the car back the next day because it was leaking. Then I found out later on that they stripped out one of the tranny pan bolts because they over-torqued it. Luckily, the pan bolts are close enough together so it doesn't leak. I will never have this done again! The only person I trust to work on my car is me!
- tsjay- there are synthetics for trans, but your guess is as good as mine on what will prolong the lifespan. there are people that never haave them serviced and seem to get unreal mileage out of them, and then there are those who go overboard with care and have problems. one thing is for sure though, auto trannies are sensitive.
I am using Max Life for the first time. I had it put in my '89 S-10 pickup, which had 139,698 miles on it at the time of the oil change. I've only put about 600 miles on the truck since the Max Life went in, so all I can tell you is that it didn't seem to do any harm. It isn't running out all over the place or making my engine smoke or anything. I really don't notice any difference in it, but there's no reason that I should, unless it was doing something bad.
The engine has just about a two second period on a cold start up when there is just a tiny bit of lifter noise, and that didn't change when I switched to the Max Life. The oil consumption, which was negligible, has gotten no better nor any worse with the Max Life. My truck only uses about a half a quart or less of oil between 3K oil changes. The engine is the 2.8 V6 and I am using Max Life 5W-30.
If the stuff works as advertised, I won't see any difference with it, but my engine should last longer.
OK, Guys, let me toss this out for some opinions... How often should I drive my Jeep to work in order for it not to sit long enough to do harm?
I drive 27 miles each way to work and back, and almost all of that trip is on four lane, limited access highway, so I can cruise along at 65 to 70 MPH. I was driving my Jeep to work five days a week from the time it was brand new in December of last year until I bought that little S-10 for a work truck on 7/16/01.
My Jeep is a 2001 Wrangler Sport with the 4.0 L I-6 and a five speed transmission.
I am driving it one day a week now, and I wonder if that is enough to keep the engine from being harmed by sitting too long, especially with cold weather coming on.
The Jeep drivetrain will do fine with usage one day per week, assuming, of course, that the weekly drive is sufficient to warm it up fully. If the Jeep is not garaged, it's possible that you will begin to see deterioration of trim and rubber parts but this is pretty much independent of frequency of usage. I am responsible for a 28-year-old Jeep, used three or four time a month, which has some bodywork deficiencies but is mechanically quite reliable.
With your low usage, you may want to change oil and filter every 12 to 15 months even if the mileage is much less than the traditional 3000 miles.
I also think Tom's Jeep usage is sufficient to keep any storage gremlins from taking it over due to its reduced schedule.
tsjay, what kind/spec of oil in that manual tranny? I think a proper switch to a synthetic tranny fluid ... say Redline ... would make a noticeable improvement.
A buddy of mine who's wife owns my old Acura Integra (well over 170,000 miles) switched it over to Valvoline Max-Life and noticed a decreased amount of oil consumption. One guy on this board posted that Max-Life caused his vehicle to leak ... but I'm skeptical of that claim.
As for synthetic oil in auto trannies, I'm skeptical of that too. People want so much out of an automatic transmission, they are getting awfully picky about fluid.
I've heard of people using synthetic fluid and their tranny began acting up and shifting at different points, etc ... than before.
Yes, frequent fluid transmissions and/or reducing the temperature of the fluid should extend a tranny's life. I've heard that reducing the operating temp by 20 degrees can DOUBLE the lifespan of an auto transmission. Yes, there are auxiliary coolers that can be purchased (try summitracing.com and others) but adding them to some of the most modern automatics can be a challenge due to space constraints. You can also add auxilary spin-on-and-off canister filters to the automatic tranny's plumbing.
All I know is that each automatic tranny is so proprietary, whatever you do, check with several people, like an owners club, before using any aftermarket fluids.
Dittos with coolers nowadays. Do the new cars even have room to install upgraded coolers? But it is a good point. Keeping the tranny cool is the best thing one could do to prolong its life.
Although I haven't had a chance to read all the way back through this topic, I haven't seen any discussion on engine flushing. I'm not talking about the stuff you pour into your engine and run for a few minutes before changing the oil, I'm talking about the Bilstein type where they pump a solution through your engine with a special machine. Considering the amount of research and experimentation many of you seem to put into this subject, I was hoping someone would have knowledge of this process and whether it is advantageous or is another one of the "snake oil" gimmicks out there. Thanks
I picked up a quart of Mercon V for my shelf. I noted that not only is it mandatory for my 99 Ranger 5 speed auto tranny, but the label states that it is a great upgrade over all levels of Dexron through Dexron III, as well as supplanting all lower Mercon grades. Contemplate this spread of use, and I think you'll agree it is a great product to have at the ready. Do not get confused and use any of these products anywhere that ATF+3 is called for, or your Chrysler Corp. tranny may bite the big one. I'm here to suggest that substituting fluids in today's transmissions on an experimental basis is a VERY poor risk to take.
I have used synthetic ATF in Ford products in lieu of Mercon, GM inlieu of Dexron II and II and in Isuzu, Camry etc.over teh past 9 years. (alwasy been the Amsoil universal ATF as well) IMHO it is similar to the synthetic oil, operates better at both of the temperature extremes and lasts longer. The only two trannies with strange fluids are Honda and perhaps newer Chrysler products. Yes, check your manual but fear of using synthetic ATF, have the manufacturers got us so scared of warranty issues these days that we must use their products only?.
As long as you check the specs for the fluid requirements you'll really have no problems yet the syn atf should not be blamed for previous neglect by the owner ie: not changing fluid for 60,70,000 miles than expect a miracle upon switching to syn atf. Even amsoils atf is suited for the new chrysler atf+3 or 4 standard works very well as long as you change the fluid and filter every 20,000 to 30,000 miles there shoud be no issues I personally would use synthetic atf. It might be beneficial to install a tranny drain kit on the american cars so as to just drain the fluid rather than dropping the pan thereby facilitating drainage of the tranny fluid and possibly allowing for frequent changes.
I understand why short trip are a bad thing; too much condensation and not enough heat to get rid of it. But does anyone know why idling for long periods is sometimes listed as somthing that would require more frequent oil changes? Does this also apply to synthetics?
The manual for my 2000 Regal calls for 50k mile change in severe conditions, 100k for standard. With 98 Malibu the numbers are 50k / for life. And this is for standard Dextron III, not the synthetic like Mobil-1.
My 2000 Buick says the same, however, the question is, are the change intervals listed in the manual, with those recommendations, what is the lifespan that the manufacturer calculates a tranny will last with 100,000 miles normal changes. Is it 100,000 or 150,000 or 200,000. That is what we don't know. So depending on how long you anticiapte keeping the car to some degree dicates a change interval. then again, it may not make any difference. With no independent test we will probably never know. I do know my warranty expires at 36,000.
Check your fluid when hot by the way, mine was underfilled from the factory and I had to add about a half a quart to bring it up to full when hot.
Well, I also decided to "overinsure" and had transmission service at 40k miles with the Malibu.
40k miles is 80% of the minimal interval recommended by GM for the worst conditions. It is like changing oil after 2,500 miles. I believe, it is enough.
I live in Connecticut, and hilly terrains are considered one of "severe service conditions" according to GM manuals. Gears are changed much more often than in flat states. However, CT is not VT or NH, and our hills are not mountains.
Looks as GM is serious about the long service intervals. A special high quality transmission filter is requred for the car. The filter costs $80. My mechanic at local Firestone was surprised: it was a way more than his estimate.
I also used the Mobil-1 synthetic ATF for the service. Bought 15 quarts of at Pep Boys and brought to the Firestone. The manager thought that so much will be needed, including for flush. Turned to be that only 9 quarts were spent. Now I have have a spare box of the ATF, to use with the next service.
Concerning the liquid level: With Malibu it is impossible to check it. Not an user-servicable item. I checked the liquid with Buick, and everything was OK. Had to add a bit of coolant, though.
Concerning durability: Well, we bought the car used, with 15k miles, in September 98. Currently it have about 45,315 miles on odometer. 30k miles in 3 years. Most probably, with the moderate usage, the car will never last 150-200k miles. These aging seals, gaskets, bushings etc. will force us to retire it much earlier.
Our son is 11 currently. Very probably, he would get the car in about 5.5 years, while we will buy a new one.
Any case, I am trying to care about property, including cars, even when it is an overkill. Just an old-fashioned family custom.
I am also using Mobile 1 ATF, I commute 31 miles that is nothing but stop and go (takes about 70 minutes on a good day) 5 days a week on my 2000 Camry. At Firestone, how much did they charge you for the flushing with bring in you own ATF? Last time I just drained and filled twice with Mobile1. I could not trust the dealer seeing what they did to my Previa's supercharger oil last time. At Firestone, I figure you can watch the work as it gets done. At the dealer, who knows what they do or don't do.
Buick and most GMs do not have a drain plug so you have to drop the pan to change fluid. I don't like the flushes because not a one shop I have talked to will drop the pan and replace and clean the pan after a flush. I assume that by flushing it the crap can become lodged in filter and pan and unless you drop it after a flush you could be causing more harm. Anyway, on my 92 Camry I switched to synthetic at 25,000 (fluid and a filter change). I have changed the fluid every 30,000 (drain and fill which is only about 50% of fluid) but never changed the filter again. Now have 139,000 on engine and tranny, oil is every 7,500 miles with synthetic as well. Maybe next time will drop the pan and replace the filter, will see.
Comments
You win!!!
They all do this to some extent. Many manufacturers now allow gerater then 3,000 mile changes, but the dealers push for the 3,000 mile thing.
For the free service interval, obviously, the dealers will have a harder time scamming the manufacturer.
True about the oil reset thing. If you really want to change it yourself and not shell out the $50 you can do it with a wire; it's just a connect of two pins. Of course it would be nice if you could do this from the dash.
dave
There is definitely something wrong with this...If dealers recommended 3000 mile oil change intervals and that's what customers did, and then BMW changed the interval to 15,000 miles at the same time as it decides to pay for customers' scheduled maintenance.
It's probably an indication that dealers and/or the manufacturer were specifying too-frequent oil changes.
I don't think anyone would argue that a car is better off long-term with dino oil and 3k changes vs. synthetic oil and 15k changes (probably using the same filter if done at the dealer).
Yes, the manufacturer provides a benefit to the customer. Free scheduled maintenance is a big benefit. But the customer is not getting 100% of the pie, as the manufacturers & dealers would like you to believe. The manufacturer is likely recovering some of the cost in other ways (higher MSRPs, for example) and is minimizing the cost in certain ways (longer fluid change intervals that are, at least in the case of the 15k oil change interval, too long in my opinion).
div2, are you disagreeing with that? I'm with armtdm totally on this one.
If a customer had asked a service advisor at ANY brand dealership 2 years ago if a 15,000 mile oil change interval was okay, the service advisor probably would have told the customer that this was a VERY bad idea and that much more frequent oil - AND filter - change intervals were safer and better for the customer's vehicle.
That's the other thing here-- even if the oil is in okay shape after 15,000 miles, what about the filter? Is BMW recommending additional filter changes during the 15k mile interval? Most of the knowledgeable folks here (I'm not one of them) seem to think that a filter should not be used beyond 5000 miles, or 7500 at the most.
I am not sure, though, that the 3,000 mile oil changes provide sizeable profit. Not sure even if the fast-lube business is profitable at all for dealerships, with their much more serious cost structure. Live seldom is so straightforward.
At least the Buick / Pontiac / GMC dealership where I bought my Regal changes oil for free every 3,000 miles, as long as the original buyers own the cars. They also toss in a free car wash with any service, including the free oil change, warranty service, etc. And they are sending letters and are calling at home, to remind that it is about time to use the free service.
On the other hand, they are advertising windshield wiper inserts replacement - for $39. Some of other prices also are ridiculous.
So it probably pays for them to lure customers by the free oil change, then sell other services.
Any case, I am avoiding the dealership. Would rather not standing himiliation - at least not for the sake of the free oil change :-)
I don't really see what's so "sleazy" about it.
BMW's had long intervals for quite awhile--7,500 was standard in '92, i recall seeing, 5,000 miles in the mid 80's--they've gone up rather steadily over the years.
I don't think BMW stretched the interval coincident with the free service offer.
So some dealers try to get you to come back every 3000--so what? They'd love you to buy a car every 2 years, too. And the grocery store would love for you to come buy milk every day in 1 quart containers. And dillard's wants you to buy new clothes every year to keep up with "fashion."
dave
Guess that is not sleazy either.
Point of previous posts was simple. Manual said 7-9000 mile changes dealer recommended 3000 and owner was to pay every 3000 miles. . Manual now say 15,000 mile changes and first 3 years free Dealer says don't come back to see me for a change until 15,000. If you want it before that you must pay.
Chee, sounds like a good profit making business to me. No sleazy tactics there.
Again, call a truce and back to topic.
Who makes the BMW oil and again a 5W60 has just got to be loaded with additives to get that weight range. Never heard of a 5W60 by any producer. I would go 15,000 between chagnes (fitler at 7,500) with a 0W, 5W or 10W 30 eight synthetic oil but I would not go beyond 7,500 with a 5W60. Is the recommendation for the Z8 15,000 as well?
dhanley, you said I don't think BMW stretched the interval coincident with the free service offer.
I couldn't disagree more.
http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html
it tells about the ingrediants of the various oils available, and what to look for when selecting what will be best for you.
It's now time to make a decision as to oil. At 4000 I preliminarily decided to stick with Wal-Mart's $11.88 oil and filter change, insisting on SuperTech rather than Fram filters. (They will substitute if you hang large signs stating "No Fram" on every part of the car.) I'm still thinking that a 4000 mile change with SuperTech oil (QuakerState) and filter (Champion Labs) is going to give pretty good protection. The other option would be to spend $30 bucks for any synthetic oil and filter (that they carry) and go to a 7500 change (maximum allowed under the warranty). Or I could substitute Wal-Marts syn. oil (also Quaker State) and their filter for about $24.00 without checking fluid levels.
I've kept most cars to around the 150K mark and have generally had other parts go bad and deep six the car before the engine gives out. Missouri's climate is not so horrible in the winter that the even dino oil shouldn't flow relatively quickly.
Your thoughts please. (BTW-- I don't really believe that any brand of dino oil is a lot better than any other as long as it's API approved and has an ILSAC rating. My only absolute no-no is to stay away from Fram at all costs.)
How about manufacturers that force you to do 3,000 mile changes, so as nto to void the warranty because you're draining out perfectly good synthetic and not damaging the engine.
bluedevils:
I couldnt' disagree more
Well, i have data to back up my position, and you don't.
dave
Why am I not a Purist, I try to meet what the car needs. I own older vehicles so differences on oils are more obvious. I found a 25% synthetic blend mixture works better than pure dino, whether purchased that way, or mixed yourself. Mine all use 4 quarts so this is easy. Tests I read a few years ago showed that a blend would give about 75% of the protection without seal leaking on older cars.
My Dodge uses the synthetic blend, and every other summer I put in a PFT additive for one oil change. It has had a rough engine after a fender bender (repaired), and this arrangement keeps it quiet cheaply. It's got 170,000 miles so I don't want to spend a lot of money this close to its end of life. I've not had any clogging problems using a standard filter. I wouldn't use a high density one like Mobile one with PFT.
My 1991 Mazda is a jewel of a 4 cylinder I sure hope that the 2003 Mazda 6 gets some of this fun back into their engines. I use a synthetic blend and add the additive Lubegard. It has been noticeably quieter since I put it in. It was humming before. Now it purrs. Starts great in the cold too.
My Subaru is a very high temp, fast revving engine, it starts much easier in winter, gets better gas mileage and seems to work less on pure synthetic. And yes, I have had some leaking issues at 120,000. But I have had seals leak at that mileage when I was running pure conventional oil.
As far as brands go, I have found Mobile, Valvoline, and Quaker State, to be very good. However if I always changed my own oil without any compunction I would choose Valvoline. My mechanic told me about a 150,000 mile engine that he saw while changing some seals. It had Valvoline since day one and the cylinder walls were completely clean. Cars with other brands were dark. Since then he only stocks Valvoline in his shop.
For cold winter nights though, nothing beats a block heater. Engines start easier, no rough running until warm, and heat comes on quicker. I think this really extends engine life.
One interesting data point. BMW used to specifically advise against using synthetic oil until the first Oil Service at @9000 miles. BMW claimed that using mineral oil facilitated piston ring break-in. I've been told by those that should know that BMW changed piston/bore tolerances and/or bore patterns when they switched to synthetic in 1999. What I know for certain is that older Bimmers aren't as fond of the BMW Synthetic- at least from a consumption standpoint. My 1995 Three Series' manual states that 15W-50 is OK down to 0F; 5W-30 is only to be used below 25F. I switched from Mobil 1 15W-50 to BMW 5W-30 and my oil consumption doubled- from 5400 miles/qt. to 2700 miles/qt. A friend with a 1991 850i had an identical experience. OTOH, my wife's 1997 5er uses not a drop between changes, and it doesn't care whether it's BMW 5W-30 or Mobil 1 15W-50. Finally, since BMW Synthetic is only $3/qt., I switched my 128000 mile 1993 Pathfinder to it as well. Guess what? Reduced oil consumption as compared to Mobil 1 5W-30- I went from 6000 miles/qt. to no oil consumed over 6000 miles. Go figure.
Manufacturers have never forced anyone to change their oil. According to US law, if the car breaks, and the mfr. claims it was due to lack of oil maintenance, the burden of proof is on the mfr. Sleazy scare tactics, either implied in the owners manual, or expressed by dealer personnel.
1. There are private mechanics that I trust implicitly for cars out of warranty. However, for the most part their first rate guys are doing other things than oil changes. Usually its the kid who draws those. You could argue that they're better trained by the old timers but I'm not sure of that. The one thing that Wal-Mart does provide me is with an oil change database that can be accessed from various stores. If it weren't for showing proof of requisite service, I'd still be changing my own.
2. Not to replicate the filters posts, but I'm not convinced that an especially dense filtering medium is all "good". To quote on the Mobil 1 filter from the MiniMopar filter study:
http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html
"Mobil 1 M1-301
Like the Champ filter, this filter is made by Champion Labs. However, it uses a unique end plate and a thicker can that make it the strongest filter available for wide distribution retail sale. It also uses a synthetic media,which inproves filtration and flow. I'm happy to say that this filter is NOT a fake. It is definitely a unique design. It uses a synthetic fiber element that can filter out very small particles
and is very strong. It is rated just under the Purolator Pure One as far as filtering capability, but is still very much above conventional paper
filters. It also has a very strong construction to withstand high pressure spikes during start-up. However, as with all Mobil 1 products, expect to
pay 2 - 3 times as much for this filter.
I have received many reports of these filters failing at high pressures. It seems that the seam where the backplate crimps to the case can split."
3. I've read all the arguments about whether Mobil 1 or Amsoil are better than other PAO's like Quaker State, whether one can trust a rebrander like Wal-Mart to not switch without warning,etcetcetc. The fact remains that synthetics (even including blends) still account for less than 10% of the market and for the most part engines can outlast all of the other components that make you unload a car after 150K.
So very, very true! You've nailed it!
Only about 10% ran anything else but dino oil. Out of all of those cars how many of them are driven by people who even know what PAO is? Like it or not, most of us (me included) who wander around these posts probably need to get a life. Most people who buy Castrol syn? are probably perfectly happy whether or not its PAO or severely hydrocracked.
I have a 97 Cavalier with 70,000 miles on it. Noticed some hairline scratches and found a bottle of that Turtle Wax stuff that color matches and has the attached lipstick. Rubbed the lipstick on the scratches, put on the polish, and by God it improved things, even though it was a pinkish red and my car was orange. I'd be afraid to post that on the Zaino/no Zaino polish/wax boards because I'm sure that the stuff is really horrible and that twenty people would go after me with a big stick.
I also have a 20 year old daughter that didn't understand what a dipstick was for. She first ran her 90 Prizm almost dry and then when I warned her put in a new quart of oil every time she filled up. I got things to the right level for her, but the oil light came on and the blow by could knock you over when you opened the filler cap at idle. Guess what, I poured in some STP lookalike from K-Mart which thickened things up a bit and the engine is still going strong 20K later at 170K miles (I know, it's a Toyota-- don't tell the sludgists.)
When her boyfriend put it into the ditch last winter, I got a quarter panel and grill put on plus a new Earl Schieb paint job all for under $700. Would I admit that to the folks debating paint jobs? Hell no, but it looks a lot better than it did, and the Scheib paint hasn't so much as begun to peel even though I don't think she's ever washed it.
When you get to that age you have a beater. And a beater with a pristine engine and no transmission is no better than a beater with a marginal engine and no transmission.
Like the oil filter paper expert says. WalMart specifies good filter specs to Champion Labs, the oil is Quaker State (and if it's Valvoline tomorrow it probably won't make a big difference) and the idiot kid who pulls the plug on the pan is probably the idiot kid who pulled the plug on the drain pan at the dealer's last week.
I agree it's fairly easy to make the engine the longest lasting component in the car, provided you maintain it well. I also think it's the most important component to maintain because it's the most expensive to repair or replace. If your car has an automatic tranny, when it goes, that will probably be the one thing that makes you decide to get rid of the car. Repairing or replacing auto trannys can get very expensive. Luckily, my car has a standard tranny, which is fairly easy and inexpensive to repair. Usually the only thing to go wrong with a standard is the clutch, which is no big deal to fix. So what's this mean? I think it means that provided the engine is well maintained, any given car equipped with an automatic will be limited by the tranny. Nobody seems to be able to build an auto tranny that will last for 200-300K. If you have car equipped with a standard, it will probably be limited by how long the owner can put up with the nickle and dime stuff. My Honda has 170 grand on it, and so far so good.
Have a good one
Al
In another topic several months ago, Bottgers, you posted details of a procedure for changing ATF. You described changing it in the normal fashion and then flushing the torque converter by pumping out through a cooler line. I have since used this excellent advice. Thanks very much.
My solution is syn (right now Redline) and an interval of about 7,500 miles. I could go further and change the filter in between but this is messy ... and I'd rather just do a full change and get rid of everything in the crankcase.
My '95 Civic developed a minor leak in the back of the motor when I switched to 10W30 Pennzoil Dino and then switched back to Valvoline syn only 3 weeks later (I used it just to flush everything out of my motor). I have since switched to Redline and the leak stopped. Maybe it was because of the polyol's effect on seals? Maybe it was because of a leak at the filter (which I doubt). I'm not sure. The car used ZERO oil in between changes for the first 100,000 miles and now uses a quart every 3-4 months.
I know Pennzoil (and Quaker State) use to have a bad reputation because of the amount of parrafins in their formulas ... which used to leave a waxy residue inside the motor but they've been reformulated many times since then. Those parrafin-heavy formulas would never pass SH or SJ standards.
--- Bror Jace
1) Those of us that push our cars on a daily basis. My Celica redlines at 7900 or close. Friction increases exponentially versus rpms. Thus, I think it is good to use the best lubricant available.
2) Wintertime: Depending on your engine, and depending how in-tune you are with it, compare 10W30 on a cold day with 5W30. The 5W30 idle will be smoother on startup. And you may or may not notice that the same viscosity in the synthetic will be smoother. Protection, that's all it is about.
I know that changing the fluid and filter of the transmission on the proper interval is a must, but what else, if anything, would be effective? And, also, what is the best interval for the fluid and filter changes on the transmissions? I suppose it would be like oil changes, too often wouldn't hurt, but really wouldn't do any good either. Do they make synthetic transmission fluids too?
How about a "sooped up" transmission fluid cooling system? Is there a way to improve the factory system in order to prolong transmission life?
Finally, what is the life expectancy of the modern automatic transmission, assuming normal conditions of use and average maintenance? My son in law's GMC pickup has about 230K miles on it, and he has NEVER had the fluid changed on his automatic transmission since buying the truck brand new. That certainly cannot be typical, can it?
tom
I plan to leave the full syn in for the full 10K miles before I do anything. It's a fairly slow leak. The best thing would be for it to reseal itself, I'll just have to wait and see.
Have any you ever used Valvoline Max Life? It supposedly is formulated for high mileage cars (75,000 miles or more). I'm just wondering if any of you have used it and noticed any benefits.
Spokane
I'm glad some of my advice could be helpful. It's certainly a lot less expensive to do this yourself, and there's no risk of some goober who doesn't care about your car screwing it up. The one time I had my tranny flushed, I had to take the car back the next day because it was leaking. Then I found out later on that they stripped out one of the tranny pan bolts because they over-torqued it. Luckily, the pan bolts are close enough together so it doesn't leak. I will never have this done again! The only person I trust to work on my car is me!
-
tsjay- there are synthetics for trans, but your guess is as good as mine on what will prolong the lifespan. there are people that never haave them serviced and seem to get unreal mileage out of them, and then there are those who go overboard with care and have problems. one thing is for sure though, auto trannies are sensitive.
The engine has just about a two second period on a cold start up when there is just a tiny bit of lifter noise, and that didn't change when I switched to the Max Life. The oil consumption, which was negligible, has gotten no better nor any worse with the Max Life. My truck only uses about a half a quart or less of oil between 3K oil changes. The engine is the 2.8 V6 and I am using Max Life 5W-30.
If the stuff works as advertised, I won't see any difference with it, but my engine should last longer.
tom
I drive 27 miles each way to work and back, and almost all of that trip is on four lane, limited access highway, so I can cruise along at 65 to 70 MPH. I was driving my Jeep to work five days a week from the time it was brand new in December of last year until I bought that little S-10 for a work truck on 7/16/01.
My Jeep is a 2001 Wrangler Sport with the 4.0 L I-6 and a five speed transmission.
I am driving it one day a week now, and I wonder if that is enough to keep the engine from being harmed by sitting too long, especially with cold weather coming on.
What do you guys think?
tom
With your low usage, you may want to change oil and filter every 12 to 15 months even if the mileage is much less than the traditional 3000 miles.
I will keep the gas tank at least three quarters full to keep moisture out of the tank.
My Jeep is in the garage (unheated) at all times when not being driven.
tom
tsjay, what kind/spec of oil in that manual tranny? I think a proper switch to a synthetic tranny fluid ... say Redline ... would make a noticeable improvement.
A buddy of mine who's wife owns my old Acura Integra (well over 170,000 miles) switched it over to Valvoline Max-Life and noticed a decreased amount of oil consumption. One guy on this board posted that Max-Life caused his vehicle to leak ... but I'm skeptical of that claim.
As for synthetic oil in auto trannies, I'm skeptical of that too. People want so much out of an automatic transmission, they are getting awfully picky about fluid.
I've heard of people using synthetic fluid and their tranny began acting up and shifting at different points, etc ... than before.
Yes, frequent fluid transmissions and/or reducing the temperature of the fluid should extend a tranny's life. I've heard that reducing the operating temp by 20 degrees can DOUBLE the lifespan of an auto transmission. Yes, there are auxiliary coolers that can be purchased (try summitracing.com and others) but adding them to some of the most modern automatics can be a challenge due to space constraints. You can also add auxilary spin-on-and-off canister filters to the automatic tranny's plumbing.
--- Bror Jace
Dittos with coolers nowadays. Do the new cars even have room to install upgraded coolers? But it is a good point. Keeping the tranny cool is the best thing one could do to prolong its life.
I'm here to suggest that substituting fluids in today's transmissions on an experimental basis is a VERY poor risk to take.
The manual for my 2000 Regal calls for 50k mile change in severe conditions, 100k for standard. With 98 Malibu the numbers are 50k / for life. And this is for standard Dextron III, not the synthetic like Mobil-1.
Check your fluid when hot by the way, mine was underfilled from the factory and I had to add about a half a quart to bring it up to full when hot.
40k miles is 80% of the minimal interval recommended by GM for the worst conditions. It is like changing oil after 2,500 miles. I believe, it is enough.
I live in Connecticut, and hilly terrains are considered one of "severe service conditions" according to GM manuals. Gears are changed much more often than in flat states. However, CT is not VT or NH, and our hills are not mountains.
Looks as GM is serious about the long service intervals. A special high quality transmission filter is requred for the car. The filter costs $80. My mechanic at local Firestone was surprised: it was a way more than his estimate.
I also used the Mobil-1 synthetic ATF for the service. Bought 15 quarts of at Pep Boys and brought to the Firestone. The manager thought that so much will be needed, including for flush. Turned to be that only 9 quarts were spent. Now I have have a spare box of the ATF, to use with the next service.
Concerning the liquid level: With Malibu it is impossible to check it. Not an user-servicable item. I checked the liquid with Buick, and everything was OK. Had to add a bit of coolant, though.
Concerning durability: Well, we bought the car used, with 15k miles, in September 98. Currently it have about 45,315 miles on odometer. 30k miles in 3 years. Most probably, with the moderate usage, the car will never last 150-200k miles. These aging seals, gaskets, bushings etc. will force us to retire it much earlier.
Our son is 11 currently. Very probably, he would get the car in about 5.5 years, while we will buy a new one.
Any case, I am trying to care about property, including cars, even when it is an overkill. Just an old-fashioned family custom.
At Firestone, how much did they charge you for the flushing with bring in you own ATF?
Last time I just drained and filled twice with Mobile1. I could not trust the dealer seeing what they did to my Previa's supercharger oil last time.
At Firestone, I figure you can watch the work as it gets done. At the dealer, who knows what they do or don't do.