Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

inky

Found this for my Accord 2001 at Walmart under the Motorcraft brand. Will use. Now recommended and I do not think engine damage or more wear will occur.
INKY

armtdm

prove that the failure was due to not changing the oil/filter at the recommended interval. The failure to change the oil is much different then the oil failing to lubricate. 99.9% of all engine warranty claims will be due to catastrophic failure of some kind. These are almost never, ever due to failure to not change the oil. Something else happened. Failure to change would be long term, wear of valves, rings etc. and these are not catastrophic in nature. So if you are changing every 3,000 for fear of waranty I believe you are holding stock in an oil well. As to filter change beyond 6 months. Well, after doing the oil analysis for 9 years the results have shown me that it does not make any difference in engine longevity if you use a quality synthetic oil and a quality filter and drive on average, at least 10 miles each time you start the engine. Filter can go probably a year and my oil usually does. My philosophy is that with dino change oil/filet every 3,000-5,000 miles for 100,000-200,000 miles and synthetic oil around 10,000 miles with filter around 6 months for the exact same mileage expectations. I never worry about warranty issues because I know that the synthetic will stand up to any test the manufacturer can claim. It will lubricate as well at 10,000 miles as that dino does at 3,000. My oil analysis has verified that for me also. And as to an easier claim on a warranty. Every dealer is sleazy and will attempt ot get out of a claim even if the oil was changed at their dealership every 3,000 miles. they will find something else to pin the denial on.

clarkemode

On my 2001 Accent, I changed the oil at 2,000 miles using Pennzoil 5-W30. The manual states that 10-W30 is for "normal" temps (over 0ºF) and that 5-W30 is for "cold" climates (under 0ºF). I dont know if it is attributed to the oil, but it seems that my engine is running louder since the oil change. I was wondering if 10-W30 would silence the engine better. I am approaching my 2nd oil change and I want to know which oil would be better to go with... 10-W30 or 5-W30... BTW has anyone seen the "fuel conserving II" oils???

adc100

your engine/vehicle, why on earth would you not use syn oil (Mobil 1 or Amsoil)? The advantage of the 5 wt is that it gets to parts quicker. Disadvantage is that its lube properties are not as good compared to 10 wt (at the lower temperatures). Syn oil eliminates this problem. A 5 wt syn is at least the equal of the 10 wt conventional. I have a real hard time understanding why everyone does not pay an extra 12 bucks per oil change to preserve a $20,000 investment. Oh well- whatever.

Later

edward22

One major cause of engine wear is acid build up from combustion by-products.
Changing dino oil gets rid of it.
Long syn changes leave acid in to eat the engine.
Thats why I use dino.

adc100

Your information is simply wrong. I'm not slamming you-just giving you information. Synthetics (Mobil 1, Amsoil) are formulated to retain an acceptably high TBN (Total Base Number) over long time and milage periods. You can check this out in an SAE Technical Paper-951026 (1995). How about a test where they did not change oil or filter for two years and ran the vehicle 3 miles twice per day (4400 mi) at speeds less than 35 mph (syn oil-vintage 1995)? After the end of two years the TBN was acceptable. Wear, cleanliness, and overall mechanical condition were judged excellent. Synthetic oils don't oxidize and form sludge (which decreases TBN-bad). If you don't like that test there are others where they changed every 25,000 mi with excellent results.

clarkemode

ok, I know synthetic is better BUT will a car run quieter on 10W as opposed to 5W-30?? I change my oil every 5,000 miles...how long can I do it if I switch to synthetic without voiding my warranty??? The manufacture states every 7,500 miles...so I might as well stick with the conventional oils...

adc100

You can safely go 7500 miles with the syn and have the increased level of protection 2500 more miles than you go now. If it makes noise after reaching oerating temperature, I don't know what to tell you as they are both 30 weights at 200 Degrees F. If it's noisier for the first 10 miles or so, that could indicate it's the 5W. Warranty: I understand that the car manufacturer must prove that you contributed to the damage- I don't believe the 7500 miles is a requirement- I could be wrong. Anyway- If you have documentation that "says" you changed at 7500 miles you should be OK. "says"- if you get my drift?

Later

orly

I just bought a Suzuki Grand Vitara (V6) with 20K miles. It started making a noise, and the dealer says it's the lifters, and an oil change should fix it. He recommended 20W50, then switching to synt to flush it out.
I'm not a mechanic, but I've never seen a car using 20W50. Dealer said because the Suzuki V6 runs hotter than typical engines (around 200F). I'm now using the 20W50, and it's as loud as ever (it almost sounds like a diesel...)
Should I switch to the synt now? Do I need to flush the engine? I'm thinking of doing it myself instead of paying $60 to the dealer for this.

oilcan2

I'm not familiar with that engine but it sounds like your dealer is not a mechanic either.If the
vehicle has hyd. lifters and they were the noise
you heard than the 20w50 would have had some
effect.It sounds like you have more mechanical
problems other than lifter noise,can you take the
vehicle elsewhere and have a different mechanic
diagnose the noise?

adc100

unhealthy...possibly bad bearing. If its louder under load that would somewhat confirm that. A heavier oil will cushion better and reduce the bearing noise. Obviously this is what the dealer wants. Take the vehicle to a good mechanic and get the results documented. I'm guessing you are going to have to go to war with the dealer or get stiffed for a bad engine. I hope I'm wrong. The temperature thing though is a stretch and very unlikely.

yurakm

There is a statement on the bottle of the Mobil-1 0W-30 oil, that it will save gas comparing with the usual 10W-30. I would like to switch to the oil, but am not sure, is it good for engines?

For our first car, the Buick Regal with 3800 V-6, GM recommends 10W-30 at summer (above 60F), the 5W-30 at cold winter (below 0F), and either 5W-30 or 10W-30 between 0F and 60F. For the second car, Chevrolet Malibu with 3100 V-6, GM recommends 5W-30 for both summer and winter.

GM recommends using either synthetic 5W-30, or 0W-30 for extreme climate only. Not applicable to my Connecticut.

armtdm

Actually, having lived in CT a few times the 0W30 could easily apply. For example, the Amsoil 0W30 states it will lubricate better then a 5W30 all year round. I have used it only once with no problem and I am switching my daughter's engine over to the 0W next week due to a colder climate at school. When you get into synthetics, as they flow so much better at low temperatures, (dino is honey at -10 synthetics flow to -60F) there is little difference between 0W,5W and 10W at start up. I have used the 10W for years in engines calling for 5W simply because I didn't want to keep multiple weights on my shelf. As to the Mobil1 synthetics great oil. If I did not use Amsoil (over past 9 years I would use Mobil 1)

adc100

I agree with armtdm you can use any of the three weightw 0W30, 5W-30, or 10W-30. I see no real need for the 0W-30. If you are changing once per year and you are in a warm climate, I would go for the 10 and if I lived up north I'd go for the 5. I own a '94 Corsica 3.1 which is the same as your Malibu. This engine may be one of the best engines ever produced. It is that good an engine. On Mobil 1( either 5 or 10 wt) it uses about 1 oz every 1000 miles (68,000 miles). You should switch to syn either Mobil 1 or Amsoil with a good filter (Mobil 1, Amsoil, Pure 1 or Delco Ultraguard) Don't delay!!

oldharry

My only experience with 20W50 oil was in the late '70's. I had a Honda 500 - 4 bike, that the owners manual recomended 10W40. Honda came out with their own 20W50, so I tried it. It would not wind up as fast, and could not wind to red line in second gear. It literally lost a significant amount of power. The oil increased the load on the engine and caused it to run hotter. I changed again back to 10W40 in less than 200 miles. Some modern engines will fail due to inadequate lubrication at start up if the oil is too heavy. Do not use oil heavier than the manufacturer recommends no matter what the dealer says.

Harry

pklas

I have used Sythentic and Dino oil. On my 93 Prelude, I have been using Synth since the first change. The car now has 218,000 miles and is about to be retired to the grave. On my 95 Civic, I use Dino oil and currently have 283,000 miles. The car seems like it wants to give me another 100,000.

Everyone save your money. Synthetic is a big waste of money. Just maintain your cars according to schedule, together with proper warmup of the engine, and everything will be fine.

yurakm

Thank you!

grundtner

I am just getting into this debate and am deciding which route to go.

I was wondering, do both of your cars have the same engine type and have been driven in similar manners and conditions? Just wondering if we are comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges.

steve234

If the engine is experiencing lifter noise with only 20k on it, it is doubtful that a flush will clean it up. Using 20w50 will not help the cause, only mask the noise until the problem gets worse after any warranty is over.
A 5w30 vs 10w30 noise argument is not valid because the only difference is immediately after startup. The big possiblity is that after changing to synthetic, you were real sensitive to the engie noise and that translated into a perception of noisier.
The advantages of synthetics are based on the individual. I would not be so inclined to use synthetic if I still changed oil every 3k. Every 7500 miles is a decent compromise because it still falls within the manufacturer's recommendations, reduces my cost and time and gives me the advantages that may come with synthetic. Extending past the manufacturer's recommendation is a sure way of having grief if a problem arises. You may win in court, but in the long run the only winner is the lawyers. My faith in the "you can go 25,000 miles without an oil change" claimers are the same as those who had a carburator that could go 100 mpg.
One last thing; when an engine cools off, moisture will condensate in the engine. This moisture will mix with the oil, reducing the properties of the oil, whether synthetic or dyno. If a car owner does at leat one trip every 2-4 weeks where the vehicle gets 30-40 miles of continuous operation, this does not become a problem. Ten miles does not cut it! You must get the engine hot enough and long enough to burn off the water. Going too long with only short runs will cause many potential problems. I would not recommend synthetic to a person that only drove 3-5K a year because the moisture buildup is more of a problem. That is why they add the 3-6 month time periods in the recommendations.

orly

Took the Grand Vitara to a different Suzuki dealer, and sure enough the tech recognize the noise as the tension mechanism for the timing chain. They ordered a replacement kit, and it's covered by the warranty. Using a different oil (synt or not) would not have solved the problem...

It goes to show that dealers are always out to get your money, even if with warranty... They wanted to sell me the Synt oil, which I'll probably do any way, but I'll do it myself rather than pay them $60... Thanks.

smece

I got a 2001 Ford Focus and dealer is asking if I want him to install a car alarm for $599. This is my first car and I don't know anything about car alarms, but isn't this too much? Would it be cheaper and/or better to get an aftermarket alarm? Its not about being cheap, I just don't want to be cheated by a dealer and I have no experience with things like this.
Thanks.

cajndave

Find a reputable car stereo dealer in your area. They can install a quality alam in your car cheeper than your Ford dealer. Just make sure it doesn't void any part of your warrenty first.

glenn54

I use a 5w30 synthetic in my Nissan.I have noticed better start ups and exelleration, however, when Idling at a stand still, the oil pressure tends to drop very low, almost to the zero mark (engine temp. stays in the normal range). The oil pressure raises back to normal whenever I excellerate. Any thoughts?

meca2

glenn54: I have an 87 Stanza that might have the same engine.
If you look in the service manual I think the lightest oil Nissan
recomends in that engine is 10w/30. Depending how many miles
on it and where you live you could use 10/40. I use durablend
15/40 during the summer and it works great. No oil leaks and
the engine runs quite. Just and idea.?

mactheknife1

Using synthetic from the first change was not a good call. The engine needs at least 5K miles to break in; 8K to 10K is better. Synthetic is not a waste. It is saving me $$$. I have been using Amsoil from bumper to bumper for over 10 years. The increase in fuel economy easily pays for the cost of the synthetic. In the 5 vehicles I've used Amsoil in (motor, tranny,rear end, bearings ...) I easily get 10% increase in fuel economy. PLUS I change the oil at 1 year or 25K miles. I don't understand the reasoning behind synthetics are too expensive. You spend $20K, $30K, or more for vehicle and then cry about an additional $20.00 for an oil change at 6 months. Synthetics are chemically designed to do the job. Petroleum oils are barely able to meet current requirements of auto manufacturers;there are so many additives to meet the SAE test requirements. Synthetics not only benefit at cold starts, they have about another 100+ degrees F at the hot end over the petroleum. I think the 0W-30 is the way to go if it meets the manufacturers suggestions. paolini@home.com

mactheknife1

Like meca2 said check the manual for the recommended oil. Then try another brand of synthetic and/or petroleum.

wayn1

Your oil pressure WILL be lower when using synthetic oil because it is MUCH slipperier than dino oil and there is no reason to get alarmed. The syn. is doing it's job, less friction!
I've been using Amsoil for 7 years.

adc100

I would like to see solid proof that syn should not be used right out of the chute (Porsh, Corvette,Mercedes, etc..) Not busting on you. I changed oil in my new Nissan Sentra at 40 miles. I'll have verifiable proof in 6 month as to whether it is a good idea.

Later

wayn1

With my new cars, I change the oil and filter every 1,000 miles untill I reach 3,000 miles, then I switch over to Amsoil. This method ensures that all internal parts are well mated to each other. I have been doing this for over 30 years and none of my cars have had any major problems and never burned a drop of oil. Works for me!

vadp

Or you could change the oil and filter every 500 miles and just the filter every 250 miles.
Just to be even more safe. And in the dusty conditions cut those intervals in half.
BTW, why do you think that "this method ensures that all internal parts are well mated to each other."?

wayn1

By using dino oil, the parts will "break in" better. An engine will not "break in" properly if you use synthetic oil right away.
Hope this answers your question.

vadp

Thank you for the quick response.
But my question was in relation to your mileage table.

armtdm

Sorry. There are no longer such things as break in oils and/or break in/seat the rings etc. with new engines. Many many engines now come from the factory with synthetics and there is no need to seat them with dino oil for a few thousand miles. This goes from Porsche, to Vettes to simple Fords. Switch as soon as possible!

yurakm

Yes, some engines are factory-filled by synthetic oil. Though, most are not.

I have a new Buick Regal, a 2000 model. Its manual recommends not driving at constant speed for the first 500 miles. I believe, this is for break-in.

greg116

I'm about to purchase a GMC Sierra 5.3 auto brand-new, and I want that beautiful engine to last as long as humany possible. This includes Mobil-1 oil changes at every 4-5,000 KM (I'm Canadian) and meticoulous maintenance. I was wondering, with consistent oil changes, when is the first time the engine should be flushed out? What about coolant systems?

Is it true that a slightly dirty oil filter will filter better than a perfectly clean one?

What is the minimum warm-up time during the winter? Say around -10C (15F)

I'm set in my choice when it comes to oil and filters, so please don't go hyping up your brands to me.

chuttie

Okay--a question for the mechanics. I change my oil myself and have found that if you change your oil after the vehicle sits for a long period of time (overnight) and then you change it the next day without starting, you get more oil out of the drain pan than you do if its hot. That being the case, why does everyone say to change it when the engine is warm. The reasoning that it allows the oil to drain better doesn't wash because when you change the oil cold you get more out of the pan. Also, if you tell me that it gets the contaminants out, why don't they drain out with the old oil after the engine has drained all night. Think about it--wouldn't all the contaminants be in the oil pan and thus be drained when you pull the plug. Seems like the right thing to do to me.

bblaha

Wow. Deja Vu. This question was just asked a few days ago over in the Synthetic Oils topic.

Basically, any oil that will get into the pan will do so whether the plug is installed or not. So you might as well drain the oil when its hot and let it drain over night (if that's what you want to do). By letting the oil cool, contaminants that might otherwise be drained with the oil will have an opportunity to settle on the bottom of the pan and NOT get removed when you drain it the next morning.

yurakm

Natural oil contains some paraffin. It is the main component of the engine oil sludge. If I remember right, paraffin is melting at about 130F (55C), and would drain out from a hot engine.

stealth1969

What would cause oil to sludge in an engine?

ccotenj

"Your oil pressure WILL be lower when using synthetic oil because it is MUCH slipperier than dino oil and there is no reason to get alarmed. The syn. is doing it's job, less friction!"

come again???

-Chris

alcan

Here I thought all these years that pressure was developed by applying force to a confined liquid, where in engine lubricating systems the oil pump supplied the force and close bearing clearances provided the confinement. Thought it had something to do with viscosity, too. Guess we learn something every day. HEY PASCAL, YOU DON'T KNOW NUTHIN'................. ;-)

ccotenj

geez, and i thought i was going nuts there...

viscosity matters... dino vs. syn doesn't... slipperier, indeed...

beware what you read on the net...

-Chris

alcan

ccotej, I've never read truer words. Even on the net. The problem as I see it is that in some other websites (certainly not here), Moron A gives Moron B some half-baked advice he obtained from his friend's brother's lawn maintenance guy, which Moron B takes as gospel and then expounds religously to every other moron who'll listen.

bnormann

Makes an old engineer proud...!!

bnormann
Host
Maintenance & Repair Message Board

0patience

Isn't it amazing how true the last few posts ring true?

Much slipperier!!
ha ha ha,almost choked on my Pepsi on that one.

ccotenj

well, every now and then someone who is particularly misinformed posts something as fact... consider it a public service when someone points it out!

-Chris

ps. how's the porsche in the winter? or is it hibernating?

vondervare

viscosity is viscosity
perhaps "dino" is not the same viscosity as slipperier what ever that is???
Rule 1. you can not compress a liquid.
Rule 2. Any liquid of the same slipperier/viscosity will produce the same pressure running through the same pump.
Rule 3. If there IS any variance in all things equal, it is clearly due to Moron A , and Moron B, being both wrong!
Consider it a public service. Von Dervare

bblaha

Well. Gee. I guess that clears that up.

vondervare

Go compress a liquid any liquid, ok?? Let me know how much smaller you can make it. I'll be waitng.

0patience

I can't believe I used the word slipperiness in a sentences.
Viscosity is the oils ability to flow (BASICALLY). I have no patience to go into it further right now.
Has nothing to do with it's ability to lubricate.
As was said,viscosity and bearing clearances are what affects the oil pressure. For every thousandths of bearing wear, there is a 20% decrease in oil pressure.
If a person wants to promote synthetic oil,there is a topic for it.
But to say that oil pressure drop is normal because it is synthetic is not accurate. Oil pressure drops because of ONLY 2 things,
a loss of viscosity or clearances(whether oil pump or bearings) becoming looser.Plain and simple.