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Comments
You obviously need to buy a new GM and help them out! :P
Which one of their new vehicles is tops on your "appeal" list right now?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
AMEN, BROTHER!!! :shades:
I would agree with you, but with the G25 coming in at the price of a Buick and even a higher-end Accord, it's going to be cross-shopped. Because most people who have 28-30K to spend on the Regal or similar car want a bit more sport if they can get it at the same time. ie - the demographic is the Regal is exactly like my mother. She wants a nice car that's a little smaller than the LaCrosse (ie - actual midsize car) and a little more sporty while being just as luxurious.
The IS250 and A4 are too small - this group wants a midsize luxury Accord or similar sized car. The Regal is exactly the right size, but it's outclassed by most of the competition. I'd even venture to say an Accord V6 will beat it - that small engine is a huge negative.
The only thing I know is GM is still losing market share in the US.
That is exactly what Buick's MO has been all along. "Understated Luxury". That's not to say there has never been a sporty side to them ( the original Century, the GS, Wildcat, and GN), but in general it's been upscale. Even the Riviera was for the most part a "personal luxury coupe" more than a sport coupe.
I think that's also historically due to the existence of Pontiac, which was supposed to be the "sporting" division. Of course we know that GM lost their way on their brand differentiation, which was one of the reasons why they ended up so badly. But I'd say Buick was better at maintaining the luxury theme than Pontiac was at maintaining the sporty theme.
So at this point we should have a matchup something like:
Buick competes with Lexus
Caddy competes with BMW or Mercedes
Chevy competes with Honda and Toyota
GMC is still a bit out there, except for commercial trucks (IMHO)
And that proves.....?
Didn't GM increase share in the last few months?
As for year-to-year, the number of competitors increases, the variation of models increases, so the shares are going to be divied up in smaller pieces unless you're one of the strongest company.
And market share proves what???
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah, but which Lexus?
Will GM have a Buick model that competes with the LS? The GS? The LX?
Probably not. The issue is that when people "compare" Buick to Lexus, they match up the LaCrosse and the ES. Maybe the Regal against the IS. But that's it.
And, both MB and BMW have offerings that start in the low $30K range and top out at over $100K, with a full line of vehicles - sedans, coupes, convertibles, SUVs. Lexus is the same way. One brand for everything.
GM apparently needs two brands to do this.
Probably not. The issue is that when people "compare" Buick to Lexus, they match up the LaCrosse and the ES. Maybe the Regal against the IS. But that's it.
And, both MB and BMW have offerings that start in the low $30K range and top out at over $100K, with a full line of vehicles - sedans, coupes, convertibles, SUVs. Lexus is the same way. One brand for everything.
GM apparently needs two brands to do this.
Well the comparison is imperfect. Certainly if Buick is a near-luxury brand it should compete with Acura or the lower end of Lexus. Agreed that the higher end of Lexus - GM has nothing like that. Perhaps Caddy some day.
Well, one could argue that BMW's don't always compete w/ MB. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't BMW's entire lineup "sports" cars that have a luxury touch to them, while, in general, MB's are "luxury" cars with a sporty touch to them? This of course excludes the "M" and "AMG" lines.
Also, is it possible that, after GM "rebuilds" Buicks lineup, there may no longer be a need for a Caddy for less than $50,000, nor a Caddy smaller than a CTS, while a top of the line Buick touches $50K, and has no vehicle as big as the XTS will be.
I was reading in Forbes that GM still lost market share in the core brands this year.
And market share proves what???
Well I guess going from over 50% down to now around 18.4% doesn't mean much.
That said, if GM can turn a profit this year at 18% or so, that means more than loosing money at 25%. But they should be profitable considering the reorganization and all the debt taken off the books.
Even though Buick has improved, at least for me, Buick will always be a poor man's Cadillac!
Regards,
OW
PS: They failed because they were a disaster...not because of any rag ratings.
Regards,
OW
Amen! I've paid more than my fair share towards Mr. Goodwrench's kids tuition bill with as much money I've spent repairing GM crap. I don't need a magazine, my bank statements were enough. Even the GM vehicle's I've had that weren't troublesome, still sucked in terms of performance, quality/fit and finish, and NVH etc.
Sorry, as I have said before about everything else with GM, things just don't happen that quickly after what they JUST went through a little under a year ago. As I have said, the new LaCrosse and Regal are nice looking and huge steps in the right direction for GM, compared to where they were just 2 and 3 years ago, in regards to quality/ fit & finish but we have no idea how there long-term reliability will be for another several years, if the quality will last, etc etc!
I sat in two different trim level LaCrosse's and two different trim level of the Regal last month at the auto show, and while very nice looking, they, in my opinion, were not up to the interior standards of Acura, Lexus, Audi, or BMW, etc. They have improved in the right direction, but they are not there yet!
Just my two cents!
Regards,
OW
That GM failed. Simple.
Regards,
OW
Should have. GM should be among the many once proud companies that eventually couldn't compete and faded away. What's done is done, I hope they make the best of it.
Toyota had 6.4% market share in '82 and 16.7% in '09. Let see, GM lost over 1/2 and Toyota's tripled. Where do you think Toyota's new customers came from? Certainly not GM.
Buick competes with Lexus
Caddy competes with BMW or Mercedes
Chevy competes with Honda and Toyota
SHOULD.
What happened is:
Buick competes with Honda and Toyota.
Cadillac wants to compete with BMW or Mercedes and fails. They can't beat Infiniti, either. They end up being equal to Lexus, Audi, and Acura.
Chevrolet is crushed by Hyundai with the exception of the Corvette.
But there's a problem as well - The higher tier imports offer a car that's equal to the GM for the same money. Ie - you actually CAN get an Acura for the price of a Buick. You actually can get an Infiniti or BMW for the price of a CTS.
People with money aren't the least bit brand-loyal. They buy that they think is the best value for their money. And as we have seen, that's just not GM.
Buick competes with Honda and Toyota.
Cadillac wants to compete with BMW or Mercedes and fails. They can't beat Infiniti, either. They end up being equal to Lexus, Audi, and Acura.
Chevrolet is crushed by Hyundai with the exception of the Corvette.
But there's a problem as well - The higher tier imports offer a car that's equal to the GM for the same money. Ie - you actually CAN get an Acura for the price of a Buick. You actually can get an Infiniti or BMW for the price of a CTS.
People with money aren't the least bit brand-loyal. They bu
y that they think is the best value for their money. And as we have seen, tha's just not GM.
That analysis is good, but of course we can't directly compare makes as they each have slightly different niches.
Caddy is pretty good on features and driveability with the CTS. They compete almost favorably against the G37 or BMW-5, but cost more than the Infiniti.
The higher end of Caddy seems to be more Lexus-like than BMW-like. They can't compete with the higher end BMW or Audi or MB, however. So they've made good efforts but the breadth of the line is lacking.
Buick is very slowly shedding their old image, but it is going to take some time. Again, their line is not filled out yet.
Chevy is kind of a mess of at least decent new stuff mixed in with the old crap. Again, they don't have a broad lineup of good vehicles yet. And of course the Corvette still should be in the Buick or Caddy lineup IMHO if you want the brand differentiation to make much sense (I know all about the history....). Lexus has the IS and the SC and the LFA sports cars. Acura had the NSX. MB has all sorts of sports cars. Why should the Corvette be a Chevy?
GMC is also IMHO a mess. Commercial trucks, great. But why rebadges of the same Chevies just to sustain another division? Back when 62vette posted here, he would justify the multi-brand strategy as very sensible. Sorry, I still don't get it. Obviously the market doesn't believe it either. If GMC is "professional grade", why do they have so many Chevy rebadges? Kind of cheapens the supposed meaning of the brand to begin with. I suspect GM hangs on to this just because they need enough product to sustain those dealers. Why not have GMC be commercial trucks and rental/fleet vehicles? Then the rental fodder sedans (like the Impala and the GP) can be separated from the Chevies which should be of better quality for the consumer. I just don't know why GMC has, for example, the Acadia, which is a family vehicle, not a professional vehicle.
With the elimination of Saturn and Pontiac and Saab and Hummer, GM is at least starting to simplify the branding, but they have a ways to go. It's sort of like McDonald's corporation buying out Ruth's Chris Steakhouse and then introducing the new RC Burger at Ruth Chris restaurants that is really a Big Mac with a whole grain bun (the "rebadge"). And then McDonald's putting USDA Choice Fillet Mignon on their fast food menu as a high end menu item (another "rebadge). Kind of senseless in terms of differentiating the two different eating experiences.
Well it has the interior quality of a Chevy.
I tend to agree on GMC,I tend to think it's around to keep dealers happy.
The whole "professional grade" thing is nonsense though. How many people are going to take a fully-loaded, leathered-up Acadia or Yukon out on the job site? By and large, they're going to take a cheap, basic, 1-ton crew cab, or a "real" medium-duty truck.
I dunno if most Buick/Caddy dealers could make it without GMC's added volume, though. In a similar fashion, Lincoln probably wouldn't make it without Mercury...although I dunno how much longer L-M is going to make it, anyway. :sick: And the main reason Chrysler made it for so long is because they had Plymouth to sell. And they started combining Jeep around the time that Plymouth got phased out. That, and downgrading some Chrysler models so that they were more like Plymouths than a "proper" Chrysler.
Still, it seems like the imports have no trouble with lower volume, prestige dealerships. You don't see too many Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti dealerships pushing Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans at the same time. But then, I'm sure there are fewer Lexus, Infinit, and Acura dealerships, anyway. Off the top of my head, I can't think of where any are, locally. They probably tend to be located in the more well-to-do locations. In contrast, the Cadillac dealer I bought my Park Ave from is within walking distance of some pretty bad dives. One area is a secluded parking lot where, when your car gets stolen, it usually ends up there after the joyriders are tired of it. My ex-wife's mother's '87 LeSabre ended up there a few times. And the other area is a nearby apartment complex that almost seems designed for crime. Lots of nooks, corners, secluded areas just ripe for ambushes, and lots of dead-ends and narrow passages where you could easily get ambushed with no way of escape. One of my managers, from my pizza delivery days, got held up and shot there once! :surprise:
I agree
Still, it seems like the imports have no trouble with lower volume, prestige dealerships. You don't see too many Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti dealerships pushing Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans at the same time. But then, I'm sure there are fewer Lexus, Infinit, and Acura dealerships, anyway. Off the top of my head, I can't think of where any are, locally. They probably tend to be located in the more well-to-do locations.
That's true. I went on a school trip with my daughter to see the state capital and President Lincoln's museum. We got within sight of the capital building and there was a MB, BMW, Porsche, and Range Rover dealer. We must be paying our elected officials way to much.
Nope, they have high brand value and last time I checked, didn't go bankrupt.
Uh, I don't know what to say about that other than whatever. I've driven several Park Ave's and I've been in a few LS's. To say they are the same is laughable (not that I'd want either one). You must live in a parallel universe where Lexus is owned by GM and Buick is owned by Toyota.
But yes, the Lacrosse definitely can compete with the ES.
That's an understatement. Sure the Lexus is/was a more expensive car, it had a lot more technology, content, and a much more expensive platform. I don''t think many cross shopped a P/A with an LS. At the time, lexus was to busy taking MB and Cadillac customers.
Lately though it seems the LS has kind of faded away. I guess MB must have gotten their act together, because I hardly see any LS460s running around.
The trick for any manufacturer is to hold/expand market share (vs its relevant benchmark line) AND maintain profit margins AND keep future costs in check. GM pretty much failed on all three fronts, which makes it hard to say which was the first.
One year of couple of improved products in low-to-medium volume market may be a first step, but cannot be trumpeted as some kind of breakthrough success.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Nope, certainly not in most people's eyes.
In mine it does because of the difficulty in getting the tedious machines repaired.
A friend of ours is a retired mechanic, among other skills, from a local city vehicle maintenance garage. His adult daughter had a black Porsche convertible. He couldn't fix the problem with timing chains that weren't done right by someone else who repaired the motor for some reason--the engine may have blown up. He ended up finding the one person in the whole area who could do the thing right (probably not including the dealer(s)).
I buy quality cars that can be fixed by myself or others for regular maintenance.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I googled around, and found a few MSRP's from 2000.
Park Ave base: $31,965
Park Ave Ultra: $37,160 (mine was probably around $40K as equipped)
DeVille: $39,895 -$45,595 depending on trim level
Lexus LS: $54,005
Mercedes S-Class: $69,700 - $77,850, depending on trim level
So, in those days, there was a pretty big jump to go from a Lexus LS to a Benz S-class.
But I just checked on Edmunds, and in 2010 it looks like the LS460 starts at $65K, while the S-class starts at $87K. So unless I overlooked something, there's still a pretty big price gap there.
wow - that is [ um ] interesting....
Well Corvette's aren't immune to that either. Special tools, expensive parts (certainly not to Porsche levels), but certainly more than your average GM or Ford. Anymore it seems everything is expensive to get worked on. My Expedition cost me nearly $1k just to have the spark plugs changed. A simple misfire turned into a $1600 bill and the most expensive part that was replaced was a $80 coil pack.
I don't have the scan tools or the patience to detect which cylinder was misfiring and why. Add the whole spark plug removal issue with the 5.4 is another mess altogether. I'm certainly not going to risk messing up $2k heads trying to remove broken spark plugs that require a $200 tool that I'll never use again.
IMO, nothing is easy to work on. IMO, spending $1k was well worth not ruining a nice weekend by cussing and screaming and probably screwing it up even more. I can make more money, can't get the time back.
Nowadays, something like that would probably draw attention to itself because it's old and boxy, and would stick out more, but this was back in the early/mid 90's, when cars like that were still pretty common.
Nowadays, I think they go for generic vehicles such as minivans, because not only do they blend in, but you can haul a lot more with a minivan than you could with a sedan!
It wasn't all that long ago that little Porsche tried to pull an Iceland and made a bid for VW. They got way into debt and had to be bailed out by the Qatar Investment Authority. Not all that different from GM in fact (US News).
VW and Porsche since announced that they would merge in 2011. It sounds a bit like another "merger of equals".
Meanwhile, GM Back in Black After Profitable First Quarter thanks in part to the auto loan situation easing. If GM had kept GMAC, they could have sold more cars since they could have eased lending restrictions.
With Defaults Leveling, GM Wants to Widen Access to Low-Credit Customers
Both links from AutoObserver.
Well, sales figures show that the Lacrosse IS selling, and the comparison between the ES 350 and the Lacrosse shows the Lacrosse to be better. For nine months now, people have been oohing and ahhing over mine. Even my wife's cousin liked it better than her Acura TL.
I dunno Andy. My crew cab was owned by a contractor who put 72,000 miles on it in 2 years, and it is loaded!! Leather, dvd player, everything but a sunroof.
Now, as for what his workers drove.........