I now have about 1,400 miles on the car, mostly city driving, some highway. Here is my experience. I have never felt any vibration. I have felt the hunting-type feeling that itochu (I think) describes in the low 60s and low 70s mph -- feels like the car, especially when cruising, can't decide whether it wants to be in 6, 4, or 3 mode. I don't know that I'd call it "maddening", but it is noticeable and it is not "seamless" as Honda advertising states.
I also agree with itochu that trans. shifting is better when driving "harder" than when driving gently. This is not a VCM issue as far as I can tell, but a simply issue of the transmission. In city driving, where it is impossible to accelerate quickly, the upshifts are quite prolonged and the downshifts are quite harsh. I asked my dealer's service dept. about this yesterday, and after a short drive with me, the [non-permissible content removed]'t service manager said he felt what I was talking about, but also said that it is normal (in fact, he said that Honda recalibrated the electronics regarding the shift points to make the shifts more noticeable). While the "car is operating normally" line is too often abused by dealer personnel, I tended to believe him on this, and that is somewhat depressing -- why would Honda want to make the transmission shifts so harsh? In any event, I've asked whether this can be addressed in any way; he said he would check, but did not sound optimistic, which in turn makes me feel not very optimistic about my satisfaction with the car. Too bad, because it is really great in all other respects.
You are correct in referring to me! I am sorry about your displeasure with your car. You might want to mention to your service manager that a 13 year Honda Platinum tech that they have been reprogramming the transmissions at his dealership in Babylon, NY (did not say which one) and been successful in addressing some of the VCM issues raised here. No TSB or anything - just "reprogramming" the transmissions. "We have been reprograming the transmissions shift points which has been helping quite a bit you can try having the dealer do this which does help"
I asked the service mgr. about reprogramming, without mentioning what you had said about your Honda tech (which I had remembered). My guy was saying that he didn't believe it could be done, citing the complicated electronics that control the transmission, but also said he would call the "Honda Tech Line" (apparently some service made available by Honda Corporate to dealer service people) about that possibility. I haven't heard anything, and I doubt he's called the Tech Line, but I will follow up with him, as it sure seems that can be adjusted.
I will continue to opine that a VCM override button will never, ever see the light of day. As much as some (a few) people would pine for one, the vast majority of drivers won't comprehend why it's there in the first place, or think about why they would want to use it.
Think also about the additional cost involved with such a change. And most importantly, the potential liability. An enterprising lawyer can use the VCM override button against Honda in the aftermath of an accident and it will get twisted into a potential design problem or unnecessary option that contributed to an unintended result. We live in the most litigious country in the solar system and the Honda lawyers will put the kabosh on an override button before you can spell "VTEC".
The primary (only?) reason there is a VSA override button is to help you extricate your car from a snowbank since the electronic system will not prevent the wheelspin necessary to get your car out. As much as C&D and other magazines like to "test" cars with and without VSA, that's not why the override button is provided by the manufacturer.
All of the above assumes that VCM successfully delivers for the large majority of Honda owners. If it rattles glasses off driver's heads, then all bets are obviously off.
I would agree with you about no override button for the VCM. Other reasons? How would the EPA rate its mileage - would there be 4 ratings? City w/wo VCM and Highway w/wo VCM? Would there be "conditions" to turning it on and off? At what speed if any?
Certainly the Sport mode utilizes more fuel because of recalibration of the transmission shifting, does it not? Those are not reported differently. I am not sure if I understand the litigation aspect of this either, especially if it is part of the sport mode manumatic type system (program the computer to be not so aggressive with the VCM on/off). I am curious why turning off a feature which has nothing to do with safety cause it to end up in litigation apart from someone suing Honda because they are not getting the advertised mileage (which you can't anyway because it is an expected mileage depending on conditions). Perhaps I am missing something. Look forward to your thoughts.
You are misinterpreting what I said - I was just taking the opportunity to observe that, based on the postings here, not all 08 V6 Accords with auto trannys behave the same.
I don't know why you thought I was implying your post was not within the context of this discussion, because I certainly did not think it was not on topic.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
If you feel there are posts here that are inappropriate, please email me giving me the post number (and the name of the discussion, I host at least half of the Sedans board so please don't make me guess) and I will be very happy to review anything you or anyone else calls to my attention.
I disagree with you completely. The VCM could be disabled as part of , for example, a "Sport Mode" that enables a more aggressve shift pattern. The VCM would be off to ensure maximum responsiveness, or the ability to shift manually with a manu-matic transmission mode. Your litigation argument is ridiculous. There is no connection between VCM and safety. Honda could just as easily be sued because the eco-light distracted the driver. Or the Nav display.
Rather than all of us calling, maybe one of us could call or visit if they are close by and get the details and post it here? If they have a possible solution, I don't want them to get alot of calls and get pi$$ed off and not help us with the info.
I respect the fact that we may disagree, but a corporate lawyer sensitive about protecting the company from potential litigation would never buy your argument that "there is no connection between VCM and safety" or that my argument is "ridiculous." Any switch that a driver must consider engaging or not engaging would have a connection to safety to the extent that it poses a distraction from the act of driving. Don't misunderstand me....I'm not suggesting that there is a logical connection to why people choose to sue. Just the fact that a driver must think about using the VCM cutoff creates a potential for litigation. It is what it is.
I don't want to spend a lot of time addressing this point because it will take us off topic from VCM, so I'll try to be brief....
A few people on these Edmunds boards would like to see a VCM override for different reasons...(1) they hate VCM and/or (2) they want to somehow package it as part of a "sport mode." Well, those are requests that 99% of Accord owners wouldn't remotely ask for or want---or they certainly wouldn't want to pay extra for it. A cutoff switch won't come free. It will have to be absorbed into the cost of the car in some fashion. Honda's accountants will push back on that, along with their lawyers.
A VCM cutoff switch also tacitly admits that there may be something wrong with VCM. Honda would not jeopardize creating such a perception unless they are absolutely forced to do so. And they would have to develop documentation in the owners manual that explains when the cutoff should or may be used, and the logic for having it in the first place. It's just a slippery slope that a Honda's Legal Dept would never support. And there is a litigation potential that comes with it. I understand that we may disagree about this point and that's okay.
We really should get back to the topic of VCM because we're dangerously getting off tangent here. Thanks for indulging me.
I see your point on the Honda not adding a switch.. but don't think Honda would necessarily see it as admitting a flaw. Adding a Sport mode, or lets just say they add Paddle Shifters to the V6 auto Coupe, would not be admitting anything negative about VCM. They already don't use VCM with the 6 Speed manual. They would just be "sporting up" the car. The litigation point is still off the mark. Using your perceived legal concerns, they would already have plenty of theoretical litigation problems such as the distraction of the eco light or the problem that stability control once switched off stays off and doesn't automatically come back on(at least with this a litigating lawyer could argue against a user error defense). A Switch that turns an economy mode on and off is the least of the lawyers worries. There are already plenty of vehicles on the road with such systems in place. You realize you think the lawyers are concerned with a user operated switch being a distraction? What about the Defroster switch or the Stereo Controls or the moonroof or the window or the center console sliding armrest release, or adjusting the lumbar support etcetera etcetera etc.....
Hi tiff_c, The VSA issue I had was because I changed my wheels for winter and didn't setup the sensor and just left the tpms warning light on for winter thinking when I put the nice wheels back on in spring it will just go out... yeah... can't do that apparently. The VSA won't shut off with that light on, the car thinks there may be a flat and won't disengage... same issue with me... found out the hard way after almost getting run over by traffic when I was spinning on some snow...
The VSA issue I had was because I changed my wheels for winter and didn't setup the sensor and just left the tpms warning light on for winter thinking when I put the nice wheels back on in spring it will just go out... yeah... can't do that apparently.
You probably didn't buy sensors for your new set of rims. If you plan on keeping the car for like 5-6 years it's worth the hassle to buy the sensors and not have to deal with it. My Civic Si is very problematic as far as rims go so I just kept the stock rims on for the winter and just swapped out the tires. Apparently everything that is available for the Si is all low profile, and no steel rims available either. I think Tire Rack said the sensors would cost me $250 for all 4 wheels. I think it might be worth it in your case. The VSA also will not cutout until you are stopped. I found that out on a steep hill. I needed momentum but until you stop you can't shut VSA off either. It's not a bug, it's a feature!
Abeeb - I'm not saying that the VCM equates to "V6 fun" versus 3/4 cyl economy, but do you really think Honda, if they were to introduce an on/off switch, would hint in any way it was for a negative reason? It would be about user choice, options, driving style etc. - you could read between the lines, but never officially.
My comment about what the description of the switch by Honda would be if they were honest was completely tongue in cheek and sarcastic. Of course Honda would never say this, but I was driving home the point that if (and let's be realistic, this would never be a reality) a switch was put in, it would only be to disable the surging and vibrating as the VCM does not really change performance as the VSA does.
I think any discussion about a switch is kind of pointless. What really is the issue is that some cars (mine included) exhibit surging and vibrating problems that other (most?) owners are not experiencing in any way. This is perplexing but points to the fact that these problematic cars need some kind of a fix to make them the same as the other cars and we are hopefully on this forum to discuss our experiences with figuring out what is causing this problem in our cars and helping ourselves and others to a faster fix. Something about our cars has been made wrong, adjusted wrong, or programmed wrong. I'm convinced there is a simple way of getting them as smooth and vibration free as most other owners are experiencing.
You're absolutely right that any switch or option or design that is inherent within the operation of a car COULD be claimed as being faulty or somehow the proximate cause of someone's loss. But that fact still doesn't make Honda any more comfortable about adding a VCM cutoff, especially if the large majority of drivers would never want one in the first place, or just be confused by it.
The reality is that most cases don't get litigated. The cost to defend is so high that companies will often settle for a "nuisance value" even if they feel they are in the right or that the case has questionable merit. A VCM cutoff switch will only increase the odds of Honda paying such nuisance value settlements. The risks far exceed the benefits. I realize we may not agree on this. And I'm not suggesting that a cutoff switch will open the floodgates for litigation. But any design change that even slightly increases the odds of being legally challenged will send a defense lawyer into the fetal position.
My 6speed coupe does not have VCM, but it is geared very differently, too. There is also a different intake to this engine to increase lower rpm torque. The MPG estimate for the manual coupe is 17/25, vs. 19/28 for the slushbox coupe. Plus, the manual coupe weighs 130 lbs less. VCM explains for part of the better fuel efficiency, but not all of it. The 6speed is a different animal (and a blast to drive). The fact that it really needs much better tires is another indication of what this car is capable of in spite of the front wheel drive architecture. Improving the tires on the autobox coupe could be a waste of money, but it would not be for the manual. I know I've argued generally in favor of VCM (and I have it on my Odyssey), but I am very, very, very happy that my coupe does NOT have it!
I have about 2600 miles on my four month old 08 V-6. From my personal experience, I can tell you that the harsh shifting that you are currently complaining about is real and it is not very pleasant. However, this will start to gradually diminish and shifting will be much more smoother as you drive some more. I am much more satisfied with transmission shifting now than when I had 1000 miles on the odometer. Give it some more time and miles.
Gotcha - I got the sarcasm, but agree that it is unlikely to happen. I hope any current issued are easily resolved, as I plan on getting a V6 Coupe in a couple of weeks, and there's that element of anxiety knowing what (only) a few drivers have found so far...
Its not a few.. Keep in mind that Honda has not sold that many V6 Accords yet. The people who keep writing this off as a minority of owners are trying to imply that their are thousands of owners out there without problems. The reality is that there are few V6 VCM Accords on the road yet making the reported issues so far that much more relevant.
I would have to agree. I certainly don't see that many Accords in general, and the ones that I do see usually aren't V-6's.
I also think that a lot of Accord owners are not real big car enthusiasts either, and don't spend time on boards like these. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Accord can not be an enthusiast type car, it's just that I feel a lot of people view their Accord's more as transportation only, and have chosen the Accord based on the reliability history, moderate pricing, resale value, and recommendations of publications such as Consumer Reports. These attributes have been true, and I hope they remain true, but I have some serious doubts about the VCM system after having had my car for about a month now.
Really, I think some people are just not that in tune with their cars to notice what some of us do with our VCM V-6's. I also feel that some other people may swallow what Honda service department people tell them about the behavior of their VCM being "normal". Others yet will just learn to live with it.
I took my car out this weekend for a total of about 100 miles, and tried to ignore the VCM behavior in an attempt to see if I could live with the car long term. I came to the conclusion that I can NOT in it's current state. I am planning on taking it in to a different dealer than where I purchased the car, and see what the service department has to say, and will also pursue the matter through Honda of America.
Other than the VCM, I really like this car. Now I would not classify my car's behavior as bad as some of the other posters here, with glasses being vibrated off of their face, etc., but it is SO annoying to drive down the Interstate at 65-70 mph, and have the car almost constantly keep trying to make up it's mind what it wants to do.
If the VCM system were to be "completely seamless", and "goes unnoticed by the the Accord's passengers", there would be no issue. These are Honda's own terms used to describe the system. If there are V-6 Accord's out there without the objectionable behavior that people have described, then it should be Honda's responsibility to find out what the difference is, and then correct the cars with these problems. Denial of a problem, or saying that is a trait of the vehicle, is NOT acceptable.
Well, I was all set to start negotiating for a 08' EX-L V6 Coupe w/AT when, while doing my final research, I stumbled across this forum. I went back to the dealer and requested another test drive; this time on the freeway for several miles. Although I did notice the occasional surge and "de-surge" as the VCM turned off and on occasionally, it did not really bother me much. (I did notice that the cabin noice was louder than I had hoped for and off course the salesman sitting in the passenger seat felt nothing). I know the test was rather short. Given the significant amount of discussion/concern over the issue along with the fact that not that not that many people own this vehicle, I'm thinking that the issue is just at the beginning of the discovery phase. I suppose it would be prudent to hold off and see how it all washes out. I'm hoping that a solution will be fleshed out because I really like the vehicle. I feel for those who purchased a vehicle that might hold a stigma. Good luck
1. Some car enthusiasts are sensing problems with the VCM while others are not 2. The question still remains as to the percentage of cars having problems 3. Some think an override switch is out of the question while I and some others believe that Honda can offer that as part of a sport package. This doesn't devalue the Coupe because people that will buy it don't want four doors while the sedan gains in performance and appeals to people going elsewhere because they don't get a manumatic type feature in the accord. 4. Some people are actually putting their decisions on hold till this problem is resolved although they love the car. I would include myself in this category although I would like to hold off for as long as my existing POS keeps running. 5. Some believe that retuning the transmission may help alleviate the symptoms while others are solely blaming the VCM system 6. Long terms tests at Edmunds prove that they haven't found a problem but that is one car out of many on the road
Hope this helps a newbie that wanders into this forum to see what's up.
6. Long terms tests at Edmunds prove that they haven't found a problem but that is one car out of many on the road
The long term test is due for an update (this month I think). With a lot more miles traveled, and being aware of some people's issues with VCM, it will be very interesting to see what they have to say. It could be the deciding factor for many potential buyers.
Thanks for the summary, but I really think that a newbie reading this would just pick up from this what you have seen as important to you from what you've been reading.
For example, stating that some "car enthusiasts are sensing problems" implies (to me at least) that the problems experienced are by enthusiasts as opposed to others who are just ordinary Honda owners, who by implication, don't sense these things. I don't know why we can't just all agree on this forum that some cars have VCM problems that need to be fixed, regardless of one's sensitivity or not, and say it that way. You may buy a car that has no problems or you may buy a car that has severe enough prolems that it is actually nausiating on a long trip. This is an unacceptable gamble and I'm sure Honda would agree and didn't intend it to be this way.
Now let's focus on how to fix the problem. And no, not a switch. This is a ridiculous remedy and will never happen. VCM works well! Just not on some cars. Read the posts in this forum and other forums: The vast majority of these cars exhibit no problems at all. I've asked posters to confirm again to me that they experience absolutely no vibration or surging and they confirm this. This simply means that the rest of our cars need to be fixed.
Let's keep the information coming as to what the service departments at dealerships are saying, what Honda is saying, and what others may have had done to their cars that have helped, either somewhat or entirely.
I got this off another Honda Board. I have noticed this on mine but I thought I was imaging things since I only have 390 miles on it. Maybe this will help some of the surging/lunging issues if they are looking at the Tranny????? No date on when it will be issued.
Just spoke to a SM at a local dealership. This person is one of the smartest Honda people I have spoken to. He gives no BS and tell it like it is.
He said that Honda is aware of the 2-3 shift stumble. There is a 1.5 sec logic pause in the shifting. Honda is working on this fix. THANK GOD.
This really bugs me to no end. But I have faith that Honda will fix it with it first major software update.
I sure hope you are right and your info. is correct, b/c this is my primary gripe, but it's a big one.
I opened up a matter with American Honda about this late last week, but have not yet been contacted by one of its representatives. We shall see whether (s)he admits to the issue or whether I get the "that's news to me" line. The service advisor at my dealer gave me, in essence, the latter and indeed told me that Honda had recalibrated the electronics this way on purpose -- made no sense to me, and thus the escalation.
Two weeks ago I was very happy to drive off in my new 2008 Accord V6 4dr from a dealer in Dallas. Now... I am not happy at all and am on this site researching transmission issues and VCM troubles. I have read EVERY post on here and on a couple of other sites. I can not speak for every 2008 Accord V6, but MY V6 is having the same issues as the ones described on this forum. THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE TRANSMISSION AND/OR THE VCM - PERIOD.
In every other way, my 2008 Honda Accord V6 4dr is WONDERFUL. But here are the totally unacceptable issues I am experiencing -
1) In stop and go traffic, the shifting from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd is like a kid that just turned 16 and is learning to work a clutch. It bucks and surges. By the time I get to work, I feel like I just stepped off an Alaska crab hauler in bad weather.
2) When driving in 3rd gear and braking while approaching a stop light, the transmission downshifts so hard I have to release the brake to make it to the intersection. No exaggeration. Again - 16 year old at the stick.
3) I feel the VCM come in and out. I've seen some of the posts disputing others having the same issue and I don't understand their motivation. It's there, it's not good, it's not comfortable, it's not right and it needs to be addressed. ON and OFF, ON and OFF.
4) I am BARELY getting 17MPG.
Next Monday I will take my Accord in to the dealer for the third time.
First time - the dealer said they didn't notice anything.
Second time - the dealer said it was "normal". (Tell that to my numerous passengers and clients who have, unaided, asked "what was that?") I drove a V6 2dr and it was NOT as noticeable but I only drove for a short time. The salesperson and I drove MY car for about 30 minutes and he said "let's take it back in to service. I can feel it and I know what you are talking about." IT IS AN ISSUE. YOU CAN'T DRIVE IT AROUND THE DEALERSHIP AND UNDERSTAND.
Third try - I am leaving it all day next Monday. We will see and I will post again on this site.
Next stop is Honda Area Manager and then filing repurchase with TxDOT Texas Lemon Law. Fortunately I have the energy and resources to force Honda to do the right thing if Monday does not go well.
My wife and I owned two used Hondas when we were first married and drove each 200,000+ miles. This is the first NEW car we have EVER purchased and are absolutely disappointed. I did things backwards - trusted the brand, bought the car and then researched after having issues. Don't make the same mistake.
By the way - I read one post that discounted the issue by counting the number of posts and posters (word?) related to this issue. That doesn't make any sense when you consider the small fraction of people finding this site, even smaller who sign up, even smaller who post, even smaller who own Hondas, even smaller who have specifically purchased a new 2008 V6 Accord and taken the time to post! If you understand statistics, then you recognize the sample size is so small that each post probably represents a thousand 2008 V6 owners.
My 08 EX-L V6 is my first Accord. I question how much Honda pays attention to the surveys we as owners are asked to respond to. I ended my most recent survey with the following comment: Historically Accord drivers tend to be auto enthusiast. Honda claiming that the VCM in their 6 cyl engines is seamless and goes completely unnoticed by its passengers is blatantly false advertising. It can be felt and depending on the sensitivity of the driver can be quite disconcerting. The V6 in my 08 EX-L Accord is a pleasure only when accelerating aggressively, when leisurely cruising the VCM activity is a big distraction. Over 5,000 miles on my Accord and I’m averaging 20 MPG, so for all the VCM activity, it seems to be doing little to conserve fuel. I think Honda would have better served its loyal Accord base with a 6 speed automatic and left the VCM out or at least user selectable as its current implementation falls quite short of what we expect from Honda. I would like to think that if all those that feel the VCM activity is negatively impacting their driving experience were to respond in a similar fashion then the people in marketing? that digest these surveys might point out to others in management/engineering that there is a serious problem that need to be addressed.
I think you captured many of the issues that owners, and others like myself having test driven them, have experienced with these cars. The analogy to a 16 year old learning to drive standard is apt. I am sure all here with problems will look forward to learning from your efforts and Honda's response. Your experience with the transmission downshifting is exactly what I have experienced and, I recall, phantomv experienced when he went down a hill with the cruise on at 60, only to have the transmission downshift and throw him into his shoulder harness.
I really want to own a new Accord Sedan with a V6 - guess I may have to go with the coupe and 6MT - or swap out engines!
I agree totally with this post. This is exactly what I feel as well. I have had it in to the dealer once -- service advisor recognized what I was feeling but I got the "operating normally" line. I've opened a file with American Honda, but have not yet been contacted by the "case manager." I will let you know if (s)he tells me anything useful or whether I get a typical car industry rep song and dance.
I have been quiet as many of you know. Its been some time since I posted. I started this forum for a reason because I knew there was a SERIOUS PROBLEM with the VCM design shortly after buying my 08 V6. I figured i would kick back and listen to Pat (Host) and the others and stop posting the same concerns (I listened) however what is compelling to me now is that more and more people are starting to find this forum and read the issues and post the SAME EXACT CONCERNS i have had since October shortly after the new model was released.
Honda is NOT ADDRESSING THIS flat out, they are ducking that there is a serious design flaw with this car. in fact the dealers seem to all stating the same thing and Honda of America is stone walling its loyal long term customers. They will say this is a "normal characteristic" of the car" ....hogwash....
The advertising is FALSE and MISLEADING. There is NO WAY that anyone that drives my 2008 V6 can say that the VCM operation is "seamless and goes unnoticed by the passengers". In fact an attny would, and might have a field day here.
I saw that someone said there is a software fix pending "potentially" please please lets us know more if you indeed here this. This just might fix alot of owners issues. I will say this again, Honda is VERY aware of this concern. I have spoken to them directly, Honda mechanics and they are working on a fix for something they are stating is a normal characteristic... funny they would do that. why?? cuz its real.
It is truly ashame that Honda would not hit this head-on, issue a TSB and then provide some sort of solution. Bottom line is this is a serious flaw. They dont know what to do since any major acknowledgment would mean a costly proposition,,, they are probably betting on those that dont fight it, blowing off those that do, and repsponding only to those of us that may retain a lawyer to protect our consumer rights.... If Honda steps up and fixes my car (doing the right thing) they will keep my loyalty. If they dont.. I will never buy another Honda product again ,,,, ever, and I will share my "personal experience" with ever single person I meet.
Golf, what is the latest word? I assume it's not good. Are you still giving them (Honda/Dealership) he** about your issues? More owners (with issues) should be as vigilant as you.
The dealer is stating "Honda has evaluated my vehicle and its demonstrating normal characteristics" so.. now we play ball.
All I can say folks is be cautious and do you homework. If your particular car is fine and you're ok with it great,, but I would suggest to many of those that are having issues not to waste a whole lot of time with Honda as in the end you will get the party line like me... I
its a sad and dissapointing result... and one I would have NEVER thought I would experience from Honda,,, not in a million years. Honda has given me $30,000 reason in which to pursue a crusade of education.
I was going to publish a full page ad in the USA Today newspaper until I saw it cost over $200k.... I have a website of my own and I am consulting with an attorney to see what I can and can't publish on my sitee about my car and this issue. Hopefully I'll have something up in the next few weeks. At least if they threaten legal action, they will have had to read my site!
I'm sure if Honda has been recieving widespread complaints about VCM, they are working hard to solve the problems. Unfortunately, until a fix is at hand, they are pretty much forced to do "damage control". Any other car company would do the same thing. I suspect even the dealerships will be left in the dark, until a solution is found.
I Live in California in a city with about 400k population. I work at a Honda Dealership and have not seen 1 VCM issue at all. I'm not saying that it doesnt exist, im simply stating that it's still very early. I would not start the Honda bashing just yet. Give it some time. Trust me if there is an issue with the VCM im sure it will get looked into throughly.
Conservatively, Honda has sold between 20,000 and 25,000 Accords with VCM since the car's introduction last September. In a typical year, 400,000 Accords are sold in the US alone, of which 150,000 to 180,000 have VCM. If this is a widespread issue, it will be rooted out and be dealt with in a very public way. Honda cannot wiggle out of it. There are obviously a handful of individual issues and frustrations that we've witnessed on these boards. To golfrski and others, good luck. Please keep us posted on what resolution is reached, if any.
It is a bit odd that dealers may be claiming that a car bucking so violently that it reminds one of a 16 year old trying to shift gears, or causing glasses to be jarred off heads, to be "normal operating procedure." Something is not intuitively lining up. The range of opinions being posted on these Edmunds boards goes from "I feel nothing" to "I can feel it very slightly if I'm really focusing on it" to "it's extremely annoying the way it hunts and surges" to "my glasses got thrown off my head/a 16 year old is trying to shift gears." We are dealing with very different sensations here. And cylinder deactivation and transmission slippage are two different mechanical issues. (Both could be happening, but they are really not related.) The wide variations in experiences would suggest that we have a serious flaw in a limited number of test examples. The question is, "how limited?"
Don't get me wrong, I do like hearing that many people are experiencing no problems at all. I believe this. This means that there is hope for my car. It's otherwise a fantastic car. What I don't understand is statements like "if there is an issue with VCM...". I am absolutely amazed that after reading all that we've been saying on this forum, there is still an opinion that we may not have a problem with VCM. What? Are we making this up? Listen to what we are saying: When that little ECO light goes on and off, the car surges and vibrates. This engine is running on 4 and 3 cylinders when it was designed to run on 6. Do you really think for one moment, that this is NOT a VCM problem? Is this maybe a problem with our floor mats? Why are we still being doubted? Honda dealers are telling people this is normal. How can Honda be serious about "fixing" the problem when they don't even acknowledge it.
Again, let's focus on how to fix our VCM problem, not if we have one - we do.
The least Honda could do is be responsive. I opened a matter with American Honda last week and was told I would be contacted by a case manager within 1-2 business days. That time has elapsed, and no word from any case manager. I guess it is easy to say that "we haven't received any complaints from customers" when you don't even acknowledge the communications from your customers.
How can Honda be serious about "fixing" the problem when they don't even acknowledge it.
They simply CAN NOT acknowledge it. What are they going to say? "We know this is a problem, and we are working on it, we have no idea when or if a fix will be found" "Don't call us, we'll call you". Would this honest statement make the car owner feel better? I seriously doubt it. It's called damage control, and it has to be done. Any other company would do the same thing.
I don't agree. It would make me feel better - at least to know they acknowledge it and are working on it. Of course it would be nice to have that in writing...
That said, I agree with you that they probably can't acknoweldge it. However, this certainly does not speak highly of Honda's integrity or any other company's integrity for that matter.
And if there is any "Honda" bashing going on, it is exactly because of this frustration. Some people on this forum have had to fight to get the service department to acknowledge that there is something wrong. Yes, Honda should be bashed for that. Sure it's only a dealership, but this is Honda's face to the public. Does anyone disagree?
I think the only point of "agreement" or "disagreement" is to the true extent of this issue. We truly and really don't know. Just because 5 or 10 or 20 posters on Edmunds say there is a problem (or vice versa---if 20 people claim that the car is incredibly awesome and they feel no problem) is potentially meaningless until there is credible and verifiable evidence to corroborate one way or another.
Some have suggested that because 5 people are upset on Edmunds, there are countless others out there who are silently suffering too. Well, that's just an opinion. There's nothing scientific about these (anonymous) comments. To suggest that there is a problem or that Honda is ignoring something or giving the customer the shaft is unsubstantiated and premature. And that's taking nothing away from those who have expressed their frustration. Those problems are real, but they are isolated to their experiences, so far.
Comments like steevo's (above) that question how many cars this person's dealership sells detract from the main issue and take us down a different tangent that has little to do with the focus of this forum. IMHO, it's really irrelevant whether this dealership sells 5 cars or 500 cars.
I agree with this. If Honda acknowledged that there was an issue and they were working on it, I would be happy knowing that a solution would be relatively close. Failure to acknowledge the issue means that it will be several more months, if not a year or longer, by the time a fix comes out. I can live with the issues I'm having (harsh shifting, particularly downshifting, as described very well by abeeb in an earlier post) for a couple months. I can't live with it for a year. Given Honda's lack of responsiveness to date, I am already in the process of preparing myself to take the financial hit and be done with the daily headache that this car has come to be.
But I also agree with both abeeb and elroy that Honda is not likely to admit that there is an issue until it actually comes out with a fix. I do think that's shortsighted -- it is horrible customer relations, at least for those customers who have the issue, and it (a) causes at least some previously loyal customers to terminate their relationship with Honda once and for all; (b) causes those same customers to discourage their family and friends from buying Honda; and (c) causes others who read boards like this to sit on the sidelines or go elsewhere. I realize that no car is perfect and that mistakes can and do happen; I'm much more willing to work with a company that owns up to the issue and indicates that it's working on a solution than I am to work with a company that stonewalls, denies any issue, and points the finger at its own customers ("you're too sensitive ...").
Its completely relevant and not a tangent. It is a direct reply to a statement. You need to read the post that is being replied to. That person implied that his dealership is so huge and sells so many cars that if the VCM issues were real, he would have firsthand knowledge. That false point has been raised numerous times in this thread, making the implication that there are so many Accord VCMs out there with no issues, therefore the posters here are a tiny minority. Reality is that relatively FEW Accords with VCM are on the road, yet there are reported issues everywhere. It is those types of dont worry be happy posts that add nothing here.
Comments
I also agree with itochu that trans. shifting is better when driving "harder" than when driving gently. This is not a VCM issue as far as I can tell, but a simply issue of the transmission. In city driving, where it is impossible to accelerate quickly, the upshifts are quite prolonged and the downshifts are quite harsh. I asked my dealer's service dept. about this yesterday, and after a short drive with me, the [non-permissible content removed]'t service manager said he felt what I was talking about, but also said that it is normal (in fact, he said that Honda recalibrated the electronics regarding the shift points to make the shifts more noticeable). While the "car is operating normally" line is too often abused by dealer personnel, I tended to believe him on this, and that is somewhat depressing -- why would Honda want to make the transmission shifts so harsh? In any event, I've asked whether this can be addressed in any way; he said he would check, but did not sound optimistic, which in turn makes me feel not very optimistic about my satisfaction with the car. Too bad, because it is really great in all other respects.
Think also about the additional cost involved with such a change. And most importantly, the potential liability. An enterprising lawyer can use the VCM override button against Honda in the aftermath of an accident and it will get twisted into a potential design problem or unnecessary option that contributed to an unintended result. We live in the most litigious country in the solar system and the Honda lawyers will put the kabosh on an override button before you can spell "VTEC".
The primary (only?) reason there is a VSA override button is to help you extricate your car from a snowbank since the electronic system will not prevent the wheelspin necessary to get your car out. As much as C&D and other magazines like to "test" cars with and without VSA, that's not why the override button is provided by the manufacturer.
All of the above assumes that VCM successfully delivers for the large majority of Honda owners. If it rattles glasses off driver's heads, then all bets are obviously off.
I don't know why you thought I was implying your post was not within the context of this discussion, because I certainly did not think it was not on topic.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
If you feel there are posts here that are inappropriate, please email me giving me the post number (and the name of the discussion, I host at least half of the Sedans board so please don't make me guess) and I will be very happy to review anything you or anyone else calls to my attention.
But we must do that by email. Thanks!!
The VCM could be disabled as part of , for example, a "Sport Mode" that enables a more aggressve shift pattern. The VCM would be off to ensure maximum responsiveness, or the ability to shift manually with a manu-matic transmission mode.
Your litigation argument is ridiculous. There is no connection between VCM and safety. Honda could just as easily be sued because the eco-light distracted the driver.
Or the Nav display.
I don't want to spend a lot of time addressing this point because it will take us off topic from VCM, so I'll try to be brief....
A few people on these Edmunds boards would like to see a VCM override for different reasons...(1) they hate VCM and/or (2) they want to somehow package it as part of a "sport mode." Well, those are requests that 99% of Accord owners wouldn't remotely ask for or want---or they certainly wouldn't want to pay extra for it. A cutoff switch won't come free. It will have to be absorbed into the cost of the car in some fashion. Honda's accountants will push back on that, along with their lawyers.
A VCM cutoff switch also tacitly admits that there may be something wrong with VCM. Honda would not jeopardize creating such a perception unless they are absolutely forced to do so. And they would have to develop documentation in the owners manual that explains when the cutoff should or may be used, and the logic for having it in the first place. It's just a slippery slope that a Honda's Legal Dept would never support. And there is a litigation potential that comes with it. I understand that we may disagree about this point and that's okay.
We really should get back to the topic of VCM because we're dangerously getting off tangent here. Thanks for indulging me.
The litigation point is still off the mark. Using your perceived legal concerns, they would already have plenty of theoretical litigation problems such as the distraction of the eco light or the problem that stability control once switched off stays off and doesn't automatically come back on(at least with this a litigating lawyer could argue against a user error defense). A Switch that turns an economy mode on and off is the least of the lawyers worries. There are already plenty of vehicles on the road with such systems in place. You realize you think the lawyers are concerned with a user operated switch being a distraction? What about the Defroster switch or the Stereo Controls or the moonroof or the window or the center console sliding armrest release, or adjusting the lumbar support etcetera etcetera etc.....
The VSA issue I had was because I changed my wheels for winter and didn't setup the sensor and just left the tpms warning light on for winter thinking when I put the nice wheels back on in spring it will just go out... yeah... can't do that apparently. The VSA won't shut off with that light on, the car thinks there may be a flat and won't disengage... same issue with me... found out the hard way after almost getting run over by traffic when I was spinning on some snow...
You probably didn't buy sensors for your new set of rims. If you plan on keeping the car for like 5-6 years it's worth the hassle to buy the sensors and not have to deal with it. My Civic Si is very problematic as far as rims go so I just kept the stock rims on for the winter and just swapped out the tires.
Apparently everything that is available for the Si is all low profile, and no steel rims available either.
I think Tire Rack said the sensors would cost me $250 for all 4 wheels. I think it might be worth it in your case.
The VSA also will not cutout until you are stopped. I found that out on a steep hill. I needed momentum but until you stop you can't shut VSA off either.
It's not a bug, it's a feature!
Alan
My comment about what the description of the switch by Honda would be if they were honest was completely tongue in cheek and sarcastic. Of course Honda would never say this, but I was driving home the point that if (and let's be realistic, this would never be a reality) a switch was put in, it would only be to disable the surging and vibrating as the VCM does not really change performance as the VSA does.
I think any discussion about a switch is kind of pointless. What really is the issue is that some cars (mine included) exhibit surging and vibrating problems that other (most?) owners are not experiencing in any way. This is perplexing but points to the fact that these problematic cars need some kind of a fix to make them the same as the other cars and we are hopefully on this forum to discuss our experiences with figuring out what is causing this problem in our cars and helping ourselves and others to a faster fix. Something about our cars has been made wrong, adjusted wrong, or programmed wrong. I'm convinced there is a simple way of getting them as smooth and vibration free as most other owners are experiencing.
The reality is that most cases don't get litigated. The cost to defend is so high that companies will often settle for a "nuisance value" even if they feel they are in the right or that the case has questionable merit. A VCM cutoff switch will only increase the odds of Honda paying such nuisance value settlements. The risks far exceed the benefits. I realize we may not agree on this. And I'm not suggesting that a cutoff switch will open the floodgates for litigation. But any design change that even slightly increases the odds of being legally challenged will send a defense lawyer into the fetal position.
My 6speed coupe does not have VCM, but it is geared very differently, too. There is also a different intake to this engine to increase lower rpm torque. The MPG estimate for the manual coupe is 17/25, vs. 19/28 for the slushbox coupe. Plus, the manual coupe weighs 130 lbs less. VCM explains for part of the better fuel efficiency, but not all of it. The 6speed is a different animal (and a blast to drive). The fact that it really needs much better tires is another indication of what this car is capable of in spite of the front wheel drive architecture. Improving the tires on the autobox coupe could be a waste of money, but it would not be for the manual. I know I've argued generally in favor of VCM (and I have it on my Odyssey), but I am very, very, very happy that my coupe does NOT have it!
Alan
Keep in mind that Honda has not sold that many V6 Accords yet. The people who keep writing this off as a minority of owners are trying to imply that their are thousands of owners out there without problems. The reality is that there are few V6 VCM Accords on the road yet making the reported issues so far that much more relevant.
I also think that a lot of Accord owners are not real big car enthusiasts either, and don't spend time on boards like these. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Accord can not be an enthusiast type car, it's just that I feel a lot of people view their Accord's more as transportation only, and have chosen the Accord based on the reliability history, moderate pricing, resale value, and recommendations of publications such as Consumer Reports. These attributes have been true, and I hope they remain true, but I have some serious doubts about the VCM system after having had my car for about a month now.
Really, I think some people are just not that in tune with their cars to notice what some of us do with our VCM V-6's. I also feel that some other people may swallow what Honda service department people tell them about the behavior of their VCM being "normal". Others yet will just learn to live with it.
I took my car out this weekend for a total of about 100 miles, and tried to ignore the VCM behavior in an attempt to see if I could live with the car long term. I came to the conclusion that I can NOT in it's current state. I am planning on taking it in to a different dealer than where I purchased the car, and see what the service department has to say, and will also pursue the matter through Honda of America.
Other than the VCM, I really like this car. Now I would not classify my car's behavior as bad as some of the other posters here, with glasses being vibrated off of their face, etc., but it is SO annoying to drive down the Interstate at 65-70 mph, and have the car almost constantly keep trying to make up it's mind what it wants to do.
If the VCM system were to be "completely seamless", and "goes unnoticed by the the Accord's passengers", there would be no issue. These are Honda's own terms used to describe the system. If there are V-6 Accord's out there without the objectionable behavior that people have described, then it should be Honda's responsibility to find out what the difference is, and then correct the cars with these problems. Denial of a problem, or saying that is a trait of the vehicle, is NOT acceptable.
1. Some car enthusiasts are sensing problems with the VCM while others are not
2. The question still remains as to the percentage of cars having problems
3. Some think an override switch is out of the question while I and some others believe that Honda can offer that as part of a sport package. This doesn't devalue the Coupe because people that will buy it don't want four doors while the sedan gains in performance and appeals to people going elsewhere because they don't get a manumatic type feature in the accord.
4. Some people are actually putting their decisions on hold till this problem is resolved although they love the car. I would include myself in this category although I would like to hold off for as long as my existing POS keeps running.
5. Some believe that retuning the transmission may help alleviate the symptoms while others are solely blaming the VCM system
6. Long terms tests at Edmunds prove that they haven't found a problem but that is one car out of many on the road
Hope this helps a newbie that wanders into this forum to see what's up.
The long term test is due for an update (this month I think). With a lot more miles traveled, and being aware of some people's issues with VCM, it will be very interesting to see what they have to say. It could be the deciding factor for many potential buyers.
For example, stating that some "car enthusiasts are sensing problems" implies (to me at least) that the problems experienced are by enthusiasts as opposed to others who are just ordinary Honda owners, who by implication, don't sense these things. I don't know why we can't just all agree on this forum that some cars have VCM problems that need to be fixed, regardless of one's sensitivity or not, and say it that way. You may buy a car that has no problems or you may buy a car that has severe enough prolems that it is actually nausiating on a long trip. This is an unacceptable gamble and I'm sure Honda would agree and didn't intend it to be this way.
Now let's focus on how to fix the problem. And no, not a switch. This is a ridiculous remedy and will never happen. VCM works well! Just not on some cars. Read the posts in this forum and other forums: The vast majority of these cars exhibit no problems at all. I've asked posters to confirm again to me that they experience absolutely no vibration or surging and they confirm this. This simply means that the rest of our cars need to be fixed.
Let's keep the information coming as to what the service departments at dealerships are saying, what Honda is saying, and what others may have had done to their cars that have helped, either somewhat or entirely.
J/K.
Just spoke to a SM at a local dealership. This person is one of the smartest Honda people I have spoken to. He gives no BS and tell it like it is.
He said that Honda is aware of the 2-3 shift stumble. There is a 1.5 sec logic pause in the shifting. Honda is working on this fix. THANK GOD.
This really bugs me to no end. But I have faith that Honda will fix it with it first major software update.
I opened up a matter with American Honda about this late last week, but have not yet been contacted by one of its representatives. We shall see whether (s)he admits to the issue or whether I get the "that's news to me" line. The service advisor at my dealer gave me, in essence, the latter and indeed told me that Honda had recalibrated the electronics this way on purpose -- made no sense to me, and thus the escalation.
In every other way, my 2008 Honda Accord V6 4dr is WONDERFUL. But here are the totally unacceptable issues I am experiencing -
1) In stop and go traffic, the shifting from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd is like a kid that just turned 16 and is learning to work a clutch. It bucks and surges. By the time I get to work, I feel like I just stepped off an Alaska crab hauler in bad weather.
2) When driving in 3rd gear and braking while approaching a stop light, the transmission downshifts so hard I have to release the brake to make it to the intersection. No exaggeration. Again - 16 year old at the stick.
3) I feel the VCM come in and out. I've seen some of the posts disputing others having the same issue and I don't understand their motivation. It's there, it's not good, it's not comfortable, it's not right and it needs to be addressed. ON and OFF, ON and OFF.
4) I am BARELY getting 17MPG.
Next Monday I will take my Accord in to the dealer for the third time.
First time - the dealer said they didn't notice anything.
Second time - the dealer said it was "normal". (Tell that to my numerous passengers and clients who have, unaided, asked "what was that?")
I drove a V6 2dr and it was NOT as noticeable but I only drove for a short time. The salesperson and I drove MY car for about 30 minutes and he said "let's take it back in to service. I can feel it and I know what you are talking about." IT IS AN ISSUE. YOU CAN'T DRIVE IT AROUND THE DEALERSHIP AND UNDERSTAND.
Third try - I am leaving it all day next Monday. We will see and I will post again on this site.
Next stop is Honda Area Manager and then filing repurchase with TxDOT Texas Lemon Law. Fortunately I have the energy and resources to force Honda to do the right thing if Monday does not go well.
My wife and I owned two used Hondas when we were first married and drove each 200,000+ miles. This is the first NEW car we have EVER purchased and are absolutely disappointed. I did things backwards - trusted the brand, bought the car and then researched after having issues. Don't make the same mistake.
By the way - I read one post that discounted the issue by counting the number of posts and posters (word?) related to this issue. That doesn't make any sense when you consider the small fraction of people finding this site, even smaller who sign up, even smaller who post, even smaller who own Hondas, even smaller who have specifically purchased a new 2008 V6 Accord and taken the time to post! If you understand statistics, then you recognize the sample size is so small that each post probably represents a thousand 2008 V6 owners.
HONDA should take notice.
Historically Accord drivers tend to be auto enthusiast. Honda claiming that the VCM in their 6 cyl engines is seamless and goes completely unnoticed by its passengers is blatantly false advertising. It can be felt and depending on the sensitivity of the driver can be quite disconcerting. The V6 in my 08 EX-L Accord is a pleasure only when accelerating aggressively, when leisurely cruising the VCM activity is a big distraction. Over 5,000 miles on my Accord and I’m averaging 20 MPG, so for all the VCM activity, it seems to be doing little to conserve fuel. I think Honda would have better served its loyal Accord base with a 6 speed automatic and left the VCM out or at least user selectable as its current implementation falls quite short of what we expect from Honda.
I would like to think that if all those that feel the VCM activity is negatively impacting their driving experience were to respond in a similar fashion then the people in marketing? that digest these surveys might point out to others in management/engineering that there is a serious problem that need to be addressed.
I really want to own a new Accord Sedan with a V6 - guess I may have to go with the coupe and 6MT - or swap out engines!
I have been quiet as many of you know. Its been some time since I posted. I started this forum for a reason because I knew there was a SERIOUS PROBLEM with the VCM design shortly after buying my 08 V6. I figured i would kick back and listen to Pat (Host) and the others and stop posting the same concerns (I listened) however what is compelling to me now is that more and more people are starting to find this forum and read the issues and post the SAME EXACT CONCERNS i have had since October shortly after the new model was released.
Honda is NOT ADDRESSING THIS flat out, they are ducking that there is a serious design flaw with this car. in fact the dealers seem to all stating the same thing and Honda of America is stone walling its loyal long term customers. They will say this is a "normal characteristic" of the car" ....hogwash....
The advertising is FALSE and MISLEADING. There is NO WAY that anyone that drives my 2008 V6 can say that the VCM operation is "seamless and goes unnoticed by the passengers". In fact an attny would, and might have a field day here.
I saw that someone said there is a software fix pending "potentially" please please lets us know more if you indeed here this. This just might fix alot of owners issues. I will say this again, Honda is VERY aware of this concern. I have spoken to them directly, Honda mechanics and they are working on a fix for something they are stating is a normal characteristic... funny they would do that. why?? cuz its real.
It is truly ashame that Honda would not hit this head-on, issue a TSB and then provide some sort of solution. Bottom line is this is a serious flaw. They dont know what to do since any major acknowledgment would mean a costly proposition,,, they are probably betting on those that dont fight it, blowing off those that do, and repsponding only to those of us that may retain a lawyer to protect our consumer rights.... If Honda steps up and fixes my car (doing the right thing) they will keep my loyalty. If they dont.. I will never buy another Honda product again ,,,, ever, and I will share my "personal experience" with ever single person I meet.
All I can say folks is be cautious and do you homework. If your particular car is fine and you're ok with it great,, but I would suggest to many of those that are having issues not to waste a whole lot of time with Honda as in the end you will get the party line like me... I
its a sad and dissapointing result... and one I would have NEVER thought I would experience from Honda,,, not in a million years. Honda has given me $30,000 reason in which to pursue a crusade of education.
It is a bit odd that dealers may be claiming that a car bucking so violently that it reminds one of a 16 year old trying to shift gears, or causing glasses to be jarred off heads, to be "normal operating procedure." Something is not intuitively lining up. The range of opinions being posted on these Edmunds boards goes from "I feel nothing" to "I can feel it very slightly if I'm really focusing on it" to "it's extremely annoying the way it hunts and surges" to "my glasses got thrown off my head/a 16 year old is trying to shift gears." We are dealing with very different sensations here. And cylinder deactivation and transmission slippage are two different mechanical issues. (Both could be happening, but they are really not related.) The wide variations in experiences would suggest that we have a serious flaw in a limited number of test examples. The question is, "how limited?"
Again, let's focus on how to fix our VCM problem, not if we have one - we do.
They simply CAN NOT acknowledge it. What are they going to say? "We know this is a problem, and we are working on it, we have no idea when or if a fix will be found" "Don't call us, we'll call you". Would this honest statement make the car owner feel better? I seriously doubt it. It's called damage control, and it has to be done. Any other company would do the same thing.
That said, I agree with you that they probably can't acknoweldge it. However, this certainly does not speak highly of Honda's integrity or any other company's integrity for that matter.
And if there is any "Honda" bashing going on, it is exactly because of this frustration. Some people on this forum have had to fight to get the service department to acknowledge that there is something wrong. Yes, Honda should be bashed for that. Sure it's only a dealership, but this is Honda's face to the public. Does anyone disagree?
Some have suggested that because 5 people are upset on Edmunds, there are countless others out there who are silently suffering too. Well, that's just an opinion. There's nothing scientific about these (anonymous) comments. To suggest that there is a problem or that Honda is ignoring something or giving the customer the shaft is unsubstantiated and premature. And that's taking nothing away from those who have expressed their frustration. Those problems are real, but they are isolated to their experiences, so far.
Comments like steevo's (above) that question how many cars this person's dealership sells detract from the main issue and take us down a different tangent that has little to do with the focus of this forum. IMHO, it's really irrelevant whether this dealership sells 5 cars or 500 cars.
But I also agree with both abeeb and elroy that Honda is not likely to admit that there is an issue until it actually comes out with a fix. I do think that's shortsighted -- it is horrible customer relations, at least for those customers who have the issue, and it (a) causes at least some previously loyal customers to terminate their relationship with Honda once and for all; (b) causes those same customers to discourage their family and friends from buying Honda; and (c) causes others who read boards like this to sit on the sidelines or go elsewhere. I realize that no car is perfect and that mistakes can and do happen; I'm much more willing to work with a company that owns up to the issue and indicates that it's working on a solution than I am to work with a company that stonewalls, denies any issue, and points the finger at its own customers ("you're too sensitive ...").
You need to read the post that is being replied to. That person implied that his dealership is so huge and sells so many cars that if the VCM issues were real, he would have firsthand knowledge. That false point has been raised numerous times in this thread, making the implication that there are so many Accord VCMs out there with no issues, therefore the posters here are a tiny minority.
Reality is that relatively FEW Accords with VCM are on the road, yet there are reported issues everywhere.
It is those types of dont worry be happy posts that add nothing here.