I sure feel for you golfrski! Bad "clubs r boards" would be one thing, but a bad, $30,000 car is another . I just wanted to make one comment on your post -- I have had dealings with many of the car manufacturers out there. Obviously, Honda has not satisfied you - but I question whether any other manufacturer would have done better. It seems that the buy-backs posted on this forum were a function of a dealership's commitment to a customer - NOT any good deed by Honda. Further, in my experience, when you get the manufacturer involved, their decisions are significantly aligned with the relevant state's consumer protection/lemon laws. . . . . if you don't qualify for relief under the lemon law, then they aren't going to do anything for you. At least in my experience, I've never seen a manufacturer be kind or generous or do much of anything that they don't have to do. Dealerships, on the other hand, sometimes come to the rescue! Certainly, I have not dealt with every brand, but my theory would apply to those with whom I have dealt: Honda, Toyota, GM, Dodge, Ford and BMW.
I can only say this - I once had some repeated and costly troubles with a GM car, first under warranty and then when out of warranty. Persistence paid off - I wrote to them several times, not taking their "our warranty is just as good as anyone else's" for an answer. Lo and behold - they offered me $1500 off the best deal I could make on any car I wanted, or to reimburse me 60% of my out of pocket costs. And then there was someone here whose dealer, Midlands Honda, Columbia, SC( a fine outfit with which I have personal experience) traded him even up into a 6MT coupe for his VCM sedan. Then too there was a Lincoln owner years ago who drove his Lincoln onto the lawn of the Ford HQ in Dearborn, MI, covered with stuck on lemons and proceeded to set it on fire - or the Ford owner who had the lemons stuck all over his car and FORD SUED HIM!!
Hi golf and others who are still having problems with their Accords,
I was the guy who traded in my two 06 Honda Civic Hybrids for one red and one silver Accord V6 EX-L AT back in Dec 07. I had problem with the way that the VCM worked and I was told that it was "normal", so I first traded my silver one for a 08 Pilot EX-L. However, the Pilot smelt like "exhaust" when driving in town and then I was told again that it "happens" to the Pilots...
When I went to the MN Auto show back in March and expressed my concerns to the Honda people at the show, they did not even care to follow up on my case. They just put my VCM concern as a comment...
I ended up looking into a Volvo S80 at the show. Later that week, I test drove a new 07 S80 V8 that the dealership had (it was the last one with ~200 miles on it), and I traded in my red Accord for the Volvo. I was quite happy with the safety features and the power of the vehicle. A month later, I found another demo 07 S80 V8 with ~1800 on it and I traded my Pilot as well.
Now I do NOT own any more Hondas. I am not telling anyone to buy a Volvo and it is not my Honda dealership's fault. They worked with me but I was tired trying to get my message across to the Honda people and I was not going to waste my time for them to solve the VCM problem... I don't mind buying a first year redesigned model that has issue as long as the company acknowledge it and try to resolve it... Life is just too short for me to worry on cars.
I have been on this forum on and off for more than 5 months now and it doesn't seem like any VCM problem is solved. My suggestion is to take a loss and trade your vehicle for something else.
I was sad that I had to take a loss of $$$$$ but I am glad that my problem is over with Honda. Just hope my Volvos don't fail me yet...
Can you post on the Volvo S80 board (if you haven't already) what you like / don't like about that car, I would be greatly interested. I am in the same basic boat you were -- getting the "operates as intended" runaround from American Honda, fed up with beating my head against a wall, and feeling like life is too short to deal with this. I had a Volvo S60 before the Accord, loved it, and now regret not having gotten another one or the S80. I figured I could get at least the same if not better performance, features and reliability for much less money; I guess I was wrong.
Not sure but at least they have the right info (it sounds like). I called my person back the other day and finally got in touch with them. I don't know if he let it slip or what but he could not remember what my case was about so he looked in the notes, and I quote "let me look in the notes of your case.....okay I see where you are having a transmission problem". Transmission problem???? WTF???? I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE TRANSMISSION. Makes me wonder if they are really hiding the issue????? I was so mad that I started looking for the law firm that handled the Transmission recall a few years ago. I want to see if they want to take my case and start a class action suit on this issue, because I know I am not the only one. They clearly are lying and covering this up.
I wouldnt get too excited about a class action lawsuit. Our 2000 accord, along with the Acura 2.3 - both 4 cylinders - were among the years with the class action lawsuits. We've had the original plus three transmissions in ours (2 in one week - as one transmission they took out was better than the one they got from honda and they put a 2nd one in the same week without us even driving it). The service department told me this was one of the smoothest shifting transmissions they had installed. On the drive home it was fine. However, the transmission clunked between gears and paused, then suddenly grabbed drive or reverse the very day after we picked it up. I called the dealership and they were very friendly and suggested we bring the car in. We realized it would be fruitless as there seems to be an obvious problem with the transmissions and they just give you a new 3/36 warranty. We still don't have 100,000 miles on our car. I did drive the VCM honda and totally agree that it surges and would not like that. I was not very high on honda after our accord, but was willing to give it one more chance. After driving the VCM honda we've decided to pass on honda. No more headaches for us. They don't fix things, they extend warranties. The class action lawsuit won't get your car fixed, but may extend your warranty - if that is what you seek.
I have been viewing these pages since Nov 2007 when I started to think about buying a 2008 V6 with VCM. I checked the surging issues as best I could before purchase. Satisfied that I did not notice any or only a slight surging, I purchase a 2008 EX-L V6 on Dec 27 2008. Since then I have driven the Accord 7500 miles and only occasionally a very slight surge. Passengers in my car have never noticed it until I brought it to their attention.
The only time I have noticed an significant surging was when the cruise control was set on 40 MPH and the system seem to go into a search wherein the MPH kept jumping between 40 and 45 MPH. Finally readjusting the CC to 41 or 42 MPH the surge disappeared completely. This was on a flat level road in Florida.
The transmission is a smooth as it can be.
I wonder what percentage of the VCM engines are experiencing this surge problem to the extent that it is annoying? I know that what I have experienced is no big deal. The Honda V6 VCM engine is far smoother than the Lincoln V6 which was the last US car I have owned.
I am not saying that this surge issue does not exist. I am just wondering if many of the complaints are from very fussy owners.
I am also a 2008 EX-L V6 owner and my experiences with VCM surging seem to be much like yours - not really a very big issue, but still noticeable.
I do not believe however that those that are expressing more serious issues are just very fussy owners. From what I've read on this forum, there are far more pronounced problems out there than what you and I are experiencing. There are also those that do not experience anything at all, and these are sensitive drivers who are looking for any sign of a surge, but can't find any.
My hope is that Honda will quietly come up with an ECM fix that will just make the problem go away as I really believe that this is where the problem lies.
Incidentally, I had read in one post that this surging feels like it could be the torque converter engaging and disengaging. Considering that RPMs stay the same during the surging and no gears are actually shifting, I feel that this could be a possibility.
I think how seamless VCM works on each car depends on match ups. The engine, engine mounts, transmission, ECM, (not to mention all of the sensors involved) all have to work together. Even slight variables in each of these components can make a difference, and some of these car's combinations match up better than others.
Complaining will not make this go away however action with American Honda may help. As a diffrent poster said American Hondas decisions are based upon the relevant states consumer protection laws so if they decide to close your VCM case there is nothing you can do if the case is with them. You have had this issue for over 12k miles isnt it a bit late to start pushing the issue?
I really do not understand the purpose of a post like this. What is it intended to accomplish? What did it contribute to the discussion other than to call into question the veracity of those posting with problems, despite the supposed denial? Once again I point to the many reviews of the 2008 wherein the reviewers all noticed the VCM, if not finding it objectionable, annoying, maddening, etc. I don't think we need to republish them, but again, I ask - what benefit does anyone posting here get from this - you have shared nothing to help any one, shed any light on problem resolution, etc. One only has to read the Edmunds New Car Reviews of 2008 Honda VCM owners to also see the issues being complained of by many owners wherein there are many low ratings of the EXL V6 because ot people finding VCM annoying - and just as many who love it. Mine smoothed out - but the problems DO exist, and I do not understand anyone calling them into question.
I think before you post anything else in the forum, you should preface it each time by saying that you sell Honda's (and I don't care what your name says). This comment really says alot about you and your dealership. When I took my car back to the dealer, he told me they get 2-3 a week coming back complaining about the VCM. So how about keeping your typical sales BS out of this forum and move on.
"So,it it, indeed a problem or is it an over sensitive driver?
I honestly don't know."
So in your mind, the possibility exists that none of us have any problem at all with our VCM, and that we are oversensitive? Oversensitive to what? If VCM is "imperceptible" as Honda states, then even the most oversensitive driver would notice nothing at all. If there is any perception of VCM, then it is a problem, wouldn't you agree?
Or are you saying that we're all lying and making this whole thing up? Because if we truly are not experiencing any problems at all, then we're just fabricating these stories!
I think your comments about not hearing any complaints at your dealership has value in that it points to the fact that there are many owners out there that do not have problematic cars and that's encouraging, but your other comments that basically imply that we're making this up are totally uncalled for. Please be careful with this.
All I ever said was this is all news to me. I have heard NOTHING about this except in these forums. I even had a concerned customer direct me to this forum.
You probably don't believe me but that is the truth.
If this is indeed, widespread or common, I'm just surprised I haven't heard this elsewhere.
And, yes, I am sorry, but some people can be more sensitive to a car's nuances then others. Hopefully we can all agree on that?
If you check other forums that are especially dedicated to Honda's (specifically Accords), you'll notice that VCM problem is not as widespread as some select posters here would like you to believe.
I have my 08 EX-L V6 for almost 6 months now and I still have to experience the "maddening" surges caused by the VCM. And trust me, "luck" has nothing to do with it since I drive this car hard.
What I did do was draw the logical conclusion of your words. I asked you if by wondering if the problem lies with the oversensitivity of us drivers, you are then saying that we are making this up. Is this what you're saying? If you say that it is due to over sensitivity, as I said before, then either there is a problem that us "sensitive" drivers are senstive to, in which case, let us figure this out, or there is not a problem, in which case you are saying that we are making this up. Which is it? Do you concede that is possible that what we are sensitve to is actually the preception of the VCM? If so, then there is a problem with Honda's VCM, isn't there? Answer the question. If that's the case, and we've spend months establishing this, then why are you suggesting that that we are making this up?
If something happens to bother a person that is a normal nuance of the car that doesn't bother 99% of the other people that own the same car then (in my opinion) it is NOT a problem. Nothing wrong with being very sensitive to a car's operation but if this is the case those people may never be happy with their purchase.
If on the other hand, something is wrong then that's a different story. Something needs to be fixed!
I'm sorry I revisited this forum. I should have known better!
For the last time, I have ONLY heard about this HERE in this forum.
Hopefully those with problems can get them respolved to their satisfaction.
One only has to read the Edmunds New Car Reviews of 2008 Honda VCM owners to also see the issues being complained of by many owners wherein there are many low ratings of the EXL V6 because ot people finding VCM annoying
I think I know why there are complaints about VCM on the Edmunds owner reviews. I made the mistake of telling everyone who was reporting problems with VCM on this forum that I read all the V6 VCM reviews at that time (21 pages), and their were no problems with VCM reported by any of the owners. At that time, most of the complaints on the V6 VCM Accord dealt with the seat firmness, and the headrest. Suddenly, one by one, reports of VCM problems started popping up on the owner reviews. Coincidence? I seriously doubt it. You bash a guy for saying he hasn't heard of any problems with VCM, because he is a Honda salesman. For all we know you could all be Toyota salesmen. If this is all an attempt to discourage people from buying a V6 VCM Accord, it isn't working. Honda has been selling more VCM Accords than they were expecting, and are having a hard time keeping up with the demand.
We get your point of view.. Audi sold a ton of cars that for some reason back in the 80's clicked into gear and drove through many a garage door and it took them forever to acknowledge it, recall and correct,, my point is not to say VCM issues are to that degree but the concept of Honda selling tons of these with high demand has nothing to do with these issues.. while you could correlate them they are simply not tethered together. I mean how many companies heavily marketed saccharine at one time?... my point is it doesn't matter how many cars Honda is selling under the slick advertising of "seamless and goes unnoticed" the advertising remains misleading and the VCM issue continue with "SOME" vehicles.
I think by now we all have a pretty clear understanding by the thousands of posts that describe real world issues that Toyota salesman aren't lurking in the shadows of this forum or trolls looking to incite riot around the 08 V6... the issues are real (for some) ,and the support from Honda for those (of which) this forum was started doesn't exist.. two primary issues that make this both NOT coincidental nor one to be dismissed by anyone that doesn't own the affected automobile..
Oh and btw, those ready to jump on my comments about a sugar substitute or an Audi as ridiculous comparison to VCM/Honda issues in my comments.. they are simply sarcastic licenses only ,, so no need to pick those and divert the dialog;-) The car has issues and those of us that are still dealing within remain steadfast in our beliefs and opinions.
Golf, thanks for getting this dialog focused back on the cars, and less on the people on this forum. We were seriously getting off tangent once again.
Having said that, your reference to the Audi 5000 debacle is definitely relevant. The 1986 "60 Minutes" segment on the Audi's alleged unintended acceleration was established to be driver error, rather than a mechanical problem with the car. But unfortunately, Audi sales plummeted and the car was replaced by the 100 and later the A6. Check out this link...
Is the problem with VCM also a case of "driver error?" Personally, I don't believe so. But as several have suggested, there is a very fine line between driver perception and sensitivity versus whether a mechanical defect truly exists with the VCM system.
I don't believe most anyone who supports VCM agrees with Honda's marketing drivel about it being "seamless and unnoticed." It certainly isn't that. But that alone will not get Honda to take back a car they sold. Might as well be realistic about that.
I truly hope that you get some sort of resolution to your issues. It's impossible to really tell whether your issues are related to those issues of sunnfun, jam1000, rodarski, abeeb, etc. None of you has gotten satisfaction, but your descriptions of the problem are also not the same. Perhaps the only common variable is that in virtually all situations, Honda is advising each of you that the car is operating within normal specs. That's the conundrum to most of us on these boards who may not have a dog in the fight, but merely want to figure out what is happening. One owner had the VCM problem, but for his car it has disappeared on its own, without any explanation. If you put yourself in our shoes, you can sense some of the skepticism.
Is there a mechanical flaw with VCM, and is Honda covering it up? It's certainly possible. Only time will tell on that.
But I'm glad we're back to talking about the cars again. As long as we do that, it really doesn't matter whether we have Honda or Toyota salesmen hiding in the weeds.
I feel that the question even being asked at this point as to whether the problem may be driver error is frustrating after all that has been posted. We are cruising down the freeway and the car lurches repeatedly to a point where the passengers notice. This surging is consistent in all our experiences. The degree to which this occurs isn't and thankfully in my case, it is quite minor, but talking about this to my wife just now, even she said she feels this frequently. The description of the problems we are experiencing are all pretty much them same if you review them: surging at various speeds and growling and vibrating, especially in 3 cylinder mode. It is completely inaccurate that the only common variable is Honda's treatment of this. To those of us who are experiencing problems, they are very real and very annoying. We love our Hondas for all kinds of other reasons and are not looking for reasons to complain or not to enjoy them.
Again, I feel that over and over again, we are responding to those who question the validity of our claims instead of trying to help to solve them. Yet another expression of skepticism isn't helpful, no matter how well worded or intended. Maybe we are only 1% of the cars out there, but that's who this forum is for! Can't Honda acknowledge and fix that 1%?
On to our actual experiences, I have about 10K on my car now, and I do feel the surging is improving, but I do a lot of highway driving with cruise control on. The vibrating and low growling at 40-50 mph still seems to be there but again, I do not think it is as severe as it was. Is anyone else noticing an improvement? I'm really hoping my car will just heal itself as well!
Again, I feel that over and over again, we are responding to those who question the validity of our claims instead of trying to help to solve them.
How are we supposed to help solve your issues? Other than trying to give our opinions on what is causing them. I have tried to give my opinions on what could cause the issues some of you are describing. I have suggested that the electronic(Drive By Wire) throttle voltage could be fluctuating, even as the drivers accelerator pedal is held steady, and this is having an effect on VCM modes (constantly switching modes 3-4-3-4 etc.). I have also suggested that the engine mounts could be a culprit. The engine mounts are no doubt asked to do a lot of vibration damping in 3cylinder mode VCM. My guess is, some mounts are doing a better job than others. These suggestions have unfortunately fallen on deaf ears. Have any of you had these items eliminated as possible causes? I simply can't believe the dealership Service Managers say " Your car is operating normally" and send you on your way. If you agree that not all VCM Accords have these issues, you would also have to agree that the problem can be fixed. If we do not eliminate possibilities, how can we find the cause? It's called "Trouble-shooting" and I can't believe no one is doing it.
I certainly welcome your suggestions to resolve our problems - my concern was regarding those who claim we don't have any!
I absolutely agree that because all Accords do not have these problems, ours should be able to be fixed, and I'd love to be able to trouble-shoot them as you suggested as they make sense. But this involves getting your dealer to agree that you have a problem and then agreeing to start replacing components to trouble shoot the problem This needs to be done under warranty as it is too expensive to be paying for this on your own. Every issue that I brought up to my dealer was dealt with by saying everything was operating normally. And I'm the first to admit that I'm not being very aggressive with this because my problem is not very severe.
Yes, yes, yes. You want to have this done (if at all) before the warranty runs out. So you have to decide quickly. Can you live with this issue as long as you plan to own the car? If you are going to get aggresive, the time is now. Good luck with the car.
You think I "bashed" him? WOW :surprise: Get a grip - I quoted him, took his coments to their logical conclusion, and I "bashed" him? You are wound too tight my friend.
"One owner had the VCM problem, but for his car it has disappeared on its own, without any explanation. If you put yourself in our shoes, you can sense some of the skepticism"
That reference is to me and I wish to emphatically state that my problems were VERY REAL - not so pronounced as those experienced by sunfunn and golfrski, but very real, very annoying, made driving and riding in the car a sickening experience. PLEASE DO NOT ASCRIBE TO ME MY EXPERIENCE CAUSING SKEPTICISM ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WITH VCM. The VCM "system" consists of a number of complex electronic and mechanical devices to accomplish its intended objective, any one of which could be at fault. In my case I suspect it waa the engine mounts not operating properly and taking longer to "break in". But why does everyone faulting those with problems ignore all the road test reviews that DID find fault with the VCM? Are these journalists lying? And I say too that I do not believe anyone here with problems has claimed they are widespread as asserted. Merely that they are having problems, as I did. And that Honda refuses to step up to the plate - how can you find out if the drive by wire is faulty, the engine mounts bad, etc. when Honda's continued response is - it is operating within normal tolerances. I don't care if these are the ONLY people in the world experiencing these problems - I sympathize with them, I sincerely wish they can get satisfactory resolution, I do not question their veracity like isellhondas does. I said it then and say it again - that kind of post serves no good purpose - witness the reactions. It only incites argument and emotions - isellhondas, did your post HELP any of these people? You try to tell them it is all in their heads? I am sure any one of them will be happy to take you for a drive in their cars at your convenience. You can even drive mine - while the VCM is a lot better, it is still noticeable and I am unhappy about the lack of response of the transmission to downshift when pressing the accelerator to the floor - you can experience that too. But youo should refrain from questionning people's veracity - it is offensive.
ljgbjg, here is the thing about forums. Posters can hide behind their computers using different accounts and using multiple handles, posting anecdotal experiences that are just merely that : anecdotal. You have to acknowledge that some of the posters here will question the veracity of the postings because their experience with the Accord is different from yours.
Also, those journalist reviews that you keep mentioning did not find fault with the Accord as a whole in regards to the VCM. Read the reviews again. They are just merely stating "some driver might feel" the VCM. Nothing worse than that and not "maddening" as some of you describe.
I have been doing that for months... everything under the sun, ANC, Mounts, tires you names it.... they know what the issues is,, its very simple... 3 cyls rockin and rollin....... while Honda can encapsulate 40 diff moving parts to eliminate the low freq 3 cy mode sound or apply some Guru Pitka transcendental engine mount that robotically tries to steady the motor to a higher power and requires 2 hours of meditational chakra searching, it aint workin as designed. The drive by wire throttle I totally agree with you.. its way to sensitive, how do I know this, simple... when I drive the car in CC very little or NO surging lurching that tells me as a NON engineer that the car can manage itself better than me , even if I have my ankle and leg locked in position trying to do a Uri Geller on the thing. I think the throttle has everything to do with the maddening VCM Operation and I think the basic concept of 3 cyls firing on one bank of cylinders is the culprit for all the vibration. i have had HONDA engineers tell us this, first hand.
Bottom line is there is good design and bad design and this one falls into the latter.....
Thank you for a reasonable post, and I believe elroy's have been quite reasonable as well.
You are correct that the problems that various people, including me, in this board have been describing have not been identical. In my case, I am more concerned with the harsh transmission shifting than the surging feeling of, apparently, the VCM. (Though, that said, I believe that the harsher shifting may be related to putting the VCM in; I would not be surprised at all if they had to change the operation of the transmission in order to accommodate the VCM.)
But this is not to say that I don't feel the VCM feeling that golf, sunnfun, and the others do. I do, it's just that I can live with it more than the harsh shifting. Is the VCM maddening, to use the word of the WSJ reporter? Not to me; annoying yes, maddening no. Which brings me to my second point. I don't think it's correct to say "driver error" but I will acknowledge that different drivers have different sensitivities and different sensitivity thresholds. For me, I hate rattles but am not bothered by wind noise; other drivers may be just the opposite. With respect to the VCM, I suspect that golf, sunnfun, the WSJ reporter and, to a lesser degree, I notice the VCM more than other drivers do or are bothered by it more. Does that make us wrong? Apparently in Honda's view, yes, because it has established some specs or tolerances and has decreed that our respective cars are operating within those tolerances. But, when Honda advertises to the world that its VCM is "seamless and goes unnoticed" it forfeits the right to reject the claims of golf, sunnfun and the others on the ground that their cars are operating within the tolerances it has set for repair or warranty purposes.
Sorry you are incorrect,,, how do I know that you ask, because i had a Service Tech sitting next to me on the highway with a PC hooked up to my car showing me in 3 cly mode at 70mph. Next question?
"They are just merely stating "some driver might feel" the VCM. Nothing worse than that and not "maddening" as some of you describe"
Sorry - you are incorrect - Reread the WSJ review - wherein the reviewer found the behavior of the VCM in his test car "maddening" - his words, not mine. Let's keep our facts straight, as well as about VCM in 3 cylinder mode at highway speeds. That too is incorrect.
Abeeb--"skepticism" may not have been a fair word for me to use. I'm personally not skeptical. I believe these singular frustrations are quite real. But I'm confused since I want to understand what's going on. Even if it's only impacting 1% of the universe of Accords.
ljgbjg---the majority of reviews on the Accord have been positive. The car did not win every comparison test, but it scored well and got a thumbs up in most tests. Car and Driver, a magazine that I respect for its analysis and writing, but also one that has historically been accused of having a lovefest with Honda, was less enthusiastic of the new Accord in its wrapup. But it still awarded it a "Ten Best" medal for the umpteenth time. Motor Trend, AutoWeek, Automobile, and Road & Track have all given generally positive reviews, in spite of isolated references to VCM. Nothing approaching the descriptions on this board.
The WSJ article is the exception, since it criticized the car for more than just VCM. But this writer also reported Honda discontinued the hybrid Accord coupe. Honda never manufactured such a car. I admit I discounted his findings shortly after reading his piece, with VCM having little to do with it. The guy seemed convinced from the get go that the Malibu was the better car, but failed to convince me with his analysis. Yes, I admit to a Honda bias, also.
Consumer Reports, a rag that many people rely on to buy cars to refrigerators, gave the Accord a positive review. Most of the newspapers from around the country gave the car a high five. The Edmunds short and long term reviews mostly land on the positive end of the ledger. VTEC.net, a Honda enthusiast site, gave the Accord high marks, but is also on the fence about VCM. It doesn't criticize VCM, but it said it was not yet convinced that the complexity justified the payback.
I'm going to drive this car in the next few weeks to solidify my own opinions, even though I'm not in the market. Test drives may not reveal the potential problems that various posters have described. But I have a good, long term relationship with my Honda dealer and they have acknowledged to me that VCM causes this car to operate and feel unlike any previous generation Accord. I'll just have to go check it out for myself. Right now, I don't feel confident enough to buy an Accord with VCM, even though my Odyssey drives just fine with the older VCM.
"I'm going to drive this car in the next few weeks to solidify my own opinions, even though I'm not in the market. Test drives may not reveal the potential problems that various posters have described. But I have a good, long term relationship with my Honda dealer and they have acknowledged to me that VCM causes this car to operate and feel unlike any previous generation Accord. I'll just have to go check it out for myself"
Amazing...simply amazing. All these posts about VCM and you don't own nor have you even driven the car. Unbelievable.
And there were other negative reviews of the VCM, although generally positive about the rest of the car, - even noted on Honda's own website by Autoweek, USA today, and I believe it was something called Family Car. One of the prevous posters had a list of them all with quotes.
I did drive the VCM Accord once, on a 15 minute test drive, before I bought the 6spd coupe. But it doesn't really count. I didn't notice any problem with the car, but it was a routine drive. I had no intentions of buying the car, but since I've owned like 15 Hondas in my life, I drive most of them at least once just for kicks. I've driven the VCM Accord, the 4 cyl Accord sedan with 5spd, the automatic 4cyl coupe, and the 6spd coupe, which replaced my 2003 6spd.
I would suggest that you focus on the car, and less so on passing judgment or directing traffic regarding the people who are here. That is Pat's job. Like I said, it's irrelevant whether someone who chooses to come here owns or has driven the car, as long as their comments are reasonable. I'm happy that we disagree on this point. You're entitled to your opinions. But so are the rest of us. Let's talk about the car, my friend.
Comments
I was the guy who traded in my two 06 Honda Civic Hybrids for one red and one silver Accord V6 EX-L AT back in Dec 07. I had problem with the way that the VCM worked and I was told that it was "normal", so I first traded my silver one for a 08 Pilot EX-L. However, the Pilot smelt like "exhaust" when driving in town and then I was told again that it "happens" to the Pilots...
When I went to the MN Auto show back in March and expressed my concerns to the Honda people at the show, they did not even care to follow up on my case. They just put my VCM concern as a comment...
I ended up looking into a Volvo S80 at the show. Later that week, I test drove a new 07 S80 V8 that the dealership had (it was the last one with ~200 miles on it), and I traded in my red Accord for the Volvo. I was quite happy with the safety features and the power of the vehicle. A month later, I found another demo 07 S80 V8 with ~1800 on it and I traded my Pilot as well.
Now I do NOT own any more Hondas. I am not telling anyone to buy a Volvo and it is not my Honda dealership's fault. They worked with me but I was tired trying to get my message across to the Honda people and I was not going to waste my time for them to solve the VCM problem... I don't mind buying a first year redesigned model that has issue as long as the company acknowledge it and try to resolve it... Life is just too short for me to worry on cars.
I have been on this forum on and off for more than 5 months now and it doesn't seem like any VCM problem is solved. My suggestion is to take a loss and trade your vehicle for something else.
I was sad that I had to take a loss of $$$$$ but I am glad that my problem is over with Honda. Just hope my Volvos don't fail me yet...
Golfr
I have been viewing these pages since Nov 2007 when I started to think about buying a 2008 V6 with VCM. I checked the surging issues as best I could before purchase. Satisfied that I did not notice any or only a slight surging, I purchase a 2008 EX-L V6 on Dec 27 2008. Since then I have driven the Accord 7500 miles and only occasionally a very slight surge. Passengers in my car have never noticed it until I brought it to their attention.
The only time I have noticed an significant surging was when the cruise control was set on 40 MPH and the system seem to go into a search wherein the MPH kept jumping between 40 and 45 MPH. Finally readjusting the CC to 41 or 42 MPH the surge disappeared completely. This was on a flat level road in Florida.
The transmission is a smooth as it can be.
I wonder what percentage of the VCM engines are experiencing this surge problem to the extent that it is annoying? I know that what I have experienced is no big deal. The Honda V6 VCM engine is far smoother than the Lincoln V6 which was the last US car I have owned.
I am not saying that this surge issue does not exist. I am just wondering if many of the complaints are from very fussy owners.
I am also a 2008 EX-L V6 owner and my experiences with VCM surging seem to be much like yours - not really a very big issue, but still noticeable.
I do not believe however that those that are expressing more serious issues are just very fussy owners. From what I've read on this forum, there are far more pronounced problems out there than what you and I are experiencing. There are also those that do not experience anything at all, and these are sensitive drivers who are looking for any sign of a surge, but can't find any.
My hope is that Honda will quietly come up with an ECM fix that will just make the problem go away as I really believe that this is where the problem lies.
Incidentally, I had read in one post that this surging feels like it could be the torque converter engaging and disengaging. Considering that RPMs stay the same during the surging and no gears are actually shifting, I feel that this could be a possibility.
Any other thoughts on this?
After having sold, literally, hundreds of Odysseys and Accords with VCM.
After asking the other salespeople, service advisors and service managers, I have yet to hear of even ONE complaint about VCM except in this forum.
So,it it, indeed a problem or is it an over sensitive driver?
I honestly don't know.
I have taken V-6 Accords out, on the road, several times trying my best to replicate this problem and I have been unsuccesful.
To hear some of the complainers, you would think that this is a massive, widespread problem and it isn't.
The people with complaints have been very vocal. I'm only sharing my honest perspective as others have as well.
"So,it it, indeed a problem or is it an over sensitive driver?
I honestly don't know."
So in your mind, the possibility exists that none of us have any problem at all with our VCM, and that we are oversensitive? Oversensitive to what? If VCM is "imperceptible" as Honda states, then even the most oversensitive driver would notice nothing at all. If there is any perception of VCM, then it is a problem, wouldn't you agree?
Or are you saying that we're all lying and making this whole thing up? Because if we truly are not experiencing any problems at all, then we're just fabricating these stories!
I think your comments about not hearing any complaints at your dealership has value in that it points to the fact that there are many owners out there that do not have problematic cars and that's encouraging, but your other comments that basically imply that we're making this up are totally uncalled for. Please be careful with this.
All I ever said was this is all news to me. I have heard NOTHING about this except in these forums. I even had a concerned customer direct me to this forum.
You probably don't believe me but that is the truth.
If this is indeed, widespread or common, I'm just surprised I haven't heard this elsewhere.
And, yes, I am sorry, but some people can be more sensitive to a car's nuances then others. Hopefully we can all agree on that?
I have my 08 EX-L V6 for almost 6 months now and I still have to experience the "maddening" surges caused by the VCM. And trust me, "luck" has nothing to do with it since I drive this car hard.
What I did do was draw the logical conclusion of your words. I asked you if by wondering if the problem lies with the oversensitivity of us drivers, you are then saying that we are making this up. Is this what you're saying? If you say that it is due to over sensitivity, as I said before, then either there is a problem that us "sensitive" drivers are senstive to, in which case, let us figure this out, or there is not a problem, in which case you are saying that we are making this up. Which is it? Do you concede that is possible that what we are sensitve to is actually the preception of the VCM? If so, then there is a problem with Honda's VCM, isn't there? Answer the question. If that's the case, and we've spend months establishing this, then why are you suggesting that that we are making this up?
If something happens to bother a person that is a normal nuance of the car that doesn't bother 99% of the other people that own the same car then (in my opinion) it is NOT a problem. Nothing wrong with being very sensitive to a car's operation but if this is the case those people may never be happy with their purchase.
If on the other hand, something is wrong then that's a different story. Something needs to be fixed!
I'm sorry I revisited this forum. I should have known better!
For the last time, I have ONLY heard about this HERE in this forum.
Hopefully those with problems can get them respolved to their satisfaction.
No need to be such a hothead!
I think I know why there are complaints about VCM on the Edmunds owner reviews. I made the mistake of telling everyone who was reporting problems with VCM on this forum that I read all the V6 VCM reviews at that time (21 pages), and their were no problems with VCM reported by any of the owners. At that time, most of the complaints on the V6 VCM Accord dealt with the seat firmness, and the headrest. Suddenly, one by one, reports of VCM problems started popping up on the owner reviews. Coincidence? I seriously doubt it. You bash a guy for saying he hasn't heard of any problems with VCM, because he is a Honda salesman. For all we know you could all be Toyota salesmen. If this is all an attempt to discourage people from buying a V6 VCM Accord, it isn't working. Honda has been selling more VCM Accords than they were expecting, and are having a hard time keeping up with the demand.
I think by now we all have a pretty clear understanding by the thousands of posts that describe real world issues that Toyota salesman aren't lurking in the shadows of this forum or trolls looking to incite riot around the 08 V6... the issues are real (for some) ,and the support from Honda for those (of which) this forum was started doesn't exist.. two primary issues that make this both NOT coincidental nor one to be dismissed by anyone that doesn't own the affected automobile..
Oh and btw, those ready to jump on my comments about a sugar substitute or an Audi as ridiculous comparison to VCM/Honda issues in my comments.. they are simply sarcastic licenses only ,, so no need to pick those and divert the dialog;-) The car has issues and those of us that are still dealing within remain steadfast in our beliefs and opinions.
They're all over in other forums making sure no one mentions "sludge" or shift and lag problems in the powertrain. :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Having said that, your reference to the Audi 5000 debacle is definitely relevant. The 1986 "60 Minutes" segment on the Audi's alleged unintended acceleration was established to be driver error, rather than a mechanical problem with the car. But unfortunately, Audi sales plummeted and the car was replaced by the 100 and later the A6. Check out this link...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-defense-of-the-audi-5000/
Is the problem with VCM also a case of "driver error?" Personally, I don't believe so. But as several have suggested, there is a very fine line between driver perception and sensitivity versus whether a mechanical defect truly exists with the VCM system.
I don't believe most anyone who supports VCM agrees with Honda's marketing drivel about it being "seamless and unnoticed." It certainly isn't that. But that alone will not get Honda to take back a car they sold. Might as well be realistic about that.
I truly hope that you get some sort of resolution to your issues. It's impossible to really tell whether your issues are related to those issues of sunnfun, jam1000, rodarski, abeeb, etc. None of you has gotten satisfaction, but your descriptions of the problem are also not the same. Perhaps the only common variable is that in virtually all situations, Honda is advising each of you that the car is operating within normal specs. That's the conundrum to most of us on these boards who may not have a dog in the fight, but merely want to figure out what is happening. One owner had the VCM problem, but for his car it has disappeared on its own, without any explanation. If you put yourself in our shoes, you can sense some of the skepticism.
Is there a mechanical flaw with VCM, and is Honda covering it up? It's certainly possible. Only time will tell on that.
But I'm glad we're back to talking about the cars again. As long as we do that, it really doesn't matter whether we have Honda or Toyota salesmen hiding in the weeds.
Again, I feel that over and over again, we are responding to those who question the validity of our claims instead of trying to help to solve them. Yet another expression of skepticism isn't helpful, no matter how well worded or intended. Maybe we are only 1% of the cars out there, but that's who this forum is for! Can't Honda acknowledge and fix that 1%?
On to our actual experiences, I have about 10K on my car now, and I do feel the surging is improving, but I do a lot of highway driving with cruise control on. The vibrating and low growling at 40-50 mph still seems to be there but again, I do not think it is as severe as it was. Is anyone else noticing an improvement? I'm really hoping my car will just heal itself as well!
How are we supposed to help solve your issues? Other than trying to give our opinions on what is causing them.
I have tried to give my opinions on what could cause the issues some of you are describing. I have suggested that the electronic(Drive By Wire) throttle voltage could be fluctuating, even as the drivers accelerator pedal is held steady, and this is having an effect on VCM modes (constantly switching modes 3-4-3-4 etc.). I have also suggested that the engine mounts could be a culprit. The engine mounts are no doubt asked to do a lot of vibration damping in 3cylinder mode VCM. My guess is, some mounts are doing a better job than others. These suggestions have unfortunately fallen on deaf ears. Have any of you had these items eliminated as possible causes? I simply can't believe the dealership Service Managers say " Your car is operating normally" and send you on your way.
If you agree that not all VCM Accords have these issues, you would also have to agree that the problem can be fixed. If we do not eliminate possibilities, how can we find the cause? It's called "Trouble-shooting" and I can't believe no one is doing it.
I absolutely agree that because all Accords do not have these problems, ours should be able to be fixed, and I'd love to be able to trouble-shoot them as you suggested as they make sense. But this involves getting your dealer to agree that you have a problem and then agreeing to start replacing components to trouble shoot the problem This needs to be done under warranty as it is too expensive to be paying for this on your own. Every issue that I brought up to my dealer was dealt with by saying everything was operating normally. And I'm the first to admit that I'm not being very aggressive with this because my problem is not very severe.
That reference is to me and I wish to emphatically state that my problems were VERY REAL - not so pronounced as those experienced by sunfunn and golfrski, but very real, very annoying, made driving and riding in the car a sickening experience. PLEASE DO NOT ASCRIBE TO ME MY EXPERIENCE CAUSING SKEPTICISM ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WITH VCM. The VCM "system" consists of a number of complex electronic and mechanical devices to accomplish its intended objective, any one of which could be at fault. In my case I suspect it waa the engine mounts not operating properly and taking longer to "break in". But why does everyone faulting those with problems ignore all the road test reviews that DID find fault with the VCM? Are these journalists lying?
And I say too that I do not believe anyone here with problems has claimed they are widespread as asserted. Merely that they are having problems, as I did. And that Honda refuses to step up to the plate - how can you find out if the drive by wire is faulty, the engine mounts bad, etc. when Honda's continued response is - it is operating within normal tolerances. I don't care if these are the ONLY people in the world experiencing these problems - I sympathize with them, I sincerely wish they can get satisfactory resolution, I do not question their veracity like isellhondas does. I said it then and say it again - that kind of post serves no good purpose - witness the reactions. It only incites argument and emotions - isellhondas, did your post HELP any of these people? You try to tell them it is all in their heads?
I am sure any one of them will be happy to take you for a drive in their cars at your convenience. You can even drive mine - while the VCM is a lot better, it is still noticeable and I am unhappy about the lack of response of the transmission to downshift when pressing the accelerator to the floor - you can experience that too.
But youo should refrain from questionning people's veracity - it is offensive.
Also, those journalist reviews that you keep mentioning did not find fault with the Accord as a whole in regards to the VCM. Read the reviews again. They are just merely stating "some driver might feel" the VCM. Nothing worse than that and not "maddening" as some of you describe.
Bottom line is there is good design and bad design and this one falls into the latter.....
Glad to see you still have a sense of humor golfrski.
You are correct that the problems that various people, including me, in this board have been describing have not been identical. In my case, I am more concerned with the harsh transmission shifting than the surging feeling of, apparently, the VCM. (Though, that said, I believe that the harsher shifting may be related to putting the VCM in; I would not be surprised at all if they had to change the operation of the transmission in order to accommodate the VCM.)
But this is not to say that I don't feel the VCM feeling that golf, sunnfun, and the others do. I do, it's just that I can live with it more than the harsh shifting. Is the VCM maddening, to use the word of the WSJ reporter? Not to me; annoying yes, maddening no. Which brings me to my second point. I don't think it's correct to say "driver error" but I will acknowledge that different drivers have different sensitivities and different sensitivity thresholds. For me, I hate rattles but am not bothered by wind noise; other drivers may be just the opposite. With respect to the VCM, I suspect that golf, sunnfun, the WSJ reporter and, to a lesser degree, I notice the VCM more than other drivers do or are bothered by it more. Does that make us wrong? Apparently in Honda's view, yes, because it has established some specs or tolerances and has decreed that our respective cars are operating within those tolerances. But, when Honda advertises to the world that its VCM is "seamless and goes unnoticed" it forfeits the right to reject the claims of golf, sunnfun and the others on the ground that their cars are operating within the tolerances it has set for repair or warranty purposes.
wondered who would catch onto the Uri Geller mention LOL
Sorry - you are incorrect - Reread the WSJ review - wherein the reviewer found the behavior of the VCM in his test car "maddening" - his words, not mine. Let's keep our facts straight, as well as about VCM in 3 cylinder mode at highway speeds. That too is incorrect.
Maybe your service tech computer is not calibrated to detect the 4 cyl. mode.
ljgbjg---the majority of reviews on the Accord have been positive. The car did not win every comparison test, but it scored well and got a thumbs up in most tests. Car and Driver, a magazine that I respect for its analysis and writing, but also one that has historically been accused of having a lovefest with Honda, was less enthusiastic of the new Accord in its wrapup. But it still awarded it a "Ten Best" medal for the umpteenth time. Motor Trend, AutoWeek, Automobile, and Road & Track have all given generally positive reviews, in spite of isolated references to VCM. Nothing approaching the descriptions on this board.
The WSJ article is the exception, since it criticized the car for more than just VCM. But this writer also reported Honda discontinued the hybrid Accord coupe. Honda never manufactured such a car. I admit I discounted his findings shortly after reading his piece, with VCM having little to do with it. The guy seemed convinced from the get go that the Malibu was the better car, but failed to convince me with his analysis. Yes, I admit to a Honda bias, also.
Consumer Reports, a rag that many people rely on to buy cars to refrigerators, gave the Accord a positive review. Most of the newspapers from around the country gave the car a high five. The Edmunds short and long term reviews mostly land on the positive end of the ledger. VTEC.net, a Honda enthusiast site, gave the Accord high marks, but is also on the fence about VCM. It doesn't criticize VCM, but it said it was not yet convinced that the complexity justified the payback.
I'm going to drive this car in the next few weeks to solidify my own opinions, even though I'm not in the market. Test drives may not reveal the potential problems that various posters have described. But I have a good, long term relationship with my Honda dealer and they have acknowledged to me that VCM causes this car to operate and feel unlike any previous generation Accord. I'll just have to go check it out for myself. Right now, I don't feel confident enough to buy an Accord with VCM, even though my Odyssey drives just fine with the older VCM.
Amazing...simply amazing. All these posts about VCM and you don't own nor have you even driven the car. Unbelievable.
And there were other negative reviews of the VCM, although generally positive about the rest of the car, - even noted on Honda's own website by Autoweek, USA today, and I believe it was something called Family Car. One of the prevous posters had a list of them all with quotes.
I would suggest that you focus on the car, and less so on passing judgment or directing traffic regarding the people who are here. That is Pat's job. Like I said, it's irrelevant whether someone who chooses to come here owns or has driven the car, as long as their comments are reasonable. I'm happy that we disagree on this point. You're entitled to your opinions. But so are the rest of us. Let's talk about the car, my friend.