Honda Accord VCM

marsha7

Unless I missed something (and I may have) there were a few folks who apparently sensed some kind of a change in the engine...almost similar to the sensation you get when your auto trans upshifts or downshifts...a real sensation, but certainly not harmful...to one driver it is seamless, to another they sense something that is nearly seamless...

Maybe they expected perfection because of their image of Honda, I don't know...no one complained of being placed in danger because of the VCM, just that they "sensed something"...to some it may be irritating, some ignore it, some cannot feel or sense it at all...

Any GM 4 speed trans of the last 30 years will give you a sensation when it upshifts or downshifts...the car is functioning correctly, and you don't drive in a vacuum...

Aside from feeling the car go into and out of ECO mode, almost like engaging and disengaging the overdrive button on my Ford, what is actually wrong with the car that is lawsuit material???

Please enlighten me on how the car is defective simply because it literally is not SEAMLESS, which may have been a poor choice of words from Honda...

cstiles

Marsha7---I think you're making numerous valid observations and asking the right questions here. There are defects with every product. It's totally possible that these handful of examples are from owners whose Accords are malfunctioning or are outright defects. But somehow, each of them is being advised by Honda (after repeated contacts, inspections, and tests) that their cars are operating normally. Obviously, both sides can't be right. One side is either lying or exaggerating the issue (if we are truly talking about a defective product).

From a legal standpoint, this basically boils down to a product liability issue. Does the product deliver what it is intended and advertised to deliver? I also see no potential class action, but in the context of a single lawsuit or arbitration case, the Accord owner must be able to prove both the defect as well as the damages sustained. That's the issue. The change in Honda's advertising is only relevant if the owners can prove that they were damaged by a defectively designed and operating car.

I agree with all of your points.

abeeb

Marsha7,

In case you haven't read the posts by those of us who are experiencing problems, let me explain:

One cannot compare this to the sensation felt with the normal shifting of a transmission. This surging experience is sometimes felt constantly while driving at a consistent speed on a straight road. If one was to compare this to a transmission, then a transmission operating in this manner with the corresponding shifting sensation, especially when the manufacturer claims that this will not be felt, would be reason to deem the car defective and there would be an expectation that it be fixed.

This has nothing to do with being in danger or being harmful. It is also not an experience that is merely because of "oversensitivity" of the driver. Most cars do not appear to exhibit this problem. Some do. Mine included.

Any legal remedy here would be addressing the issue of the cost to the owner in either fixing the problem (not sure how) or putting them back to the place they would have been had the information given them been accurate to start with and they would have made their purchase decision accordingly.

Imagine you being told - in writing - that there would be NO sensation when engaging and disengaging the overdrive button on your Ford. You purchased the vehicle and subsequently found that you experienced annoying sensations whenever pushed the button. Imagine taking it back to Ford and receiving stonewalling and statements that it was "normal". Would you not be seeking some remedy for this?

This is our situation.

bug4

You don't necessarily have to prove classic damage elements in lemon law proceedings. If you meet the statutory prerequisites (some of which admittedly may look a lot like proof of damages), then your damages are assumed and your remedy provided . . . . Just a thought

pat

Here's the link: cstiles, "Midsize Sedans 2.0" #9891, 13 Jun 2008 12:45 pm.

marsha7

viewpoints, and maybe I am really just stupid, but I am trying to see where you might prevail in front of a jury, and I do not see it...

What I DO see is that if an owner could find a lawyer to file suit (or do it pro se) simply the bad publicity might make Honda look at your complaints with a new attitude...just like many posters have taken in their vehicles to have the computer module "flashed" with updated programming, maybe all Honda needs to do to smooth out some of these rough spots is to flash the VCM with some updated firmware that may just make it "seamless"...maybe...

thegraduate

I drove a 3.5L Pilot today (2009 model with 6-4-3 VCM). Very impressive vehicle. I made sure to pay attention to the ECO light, which was on as much as it was off. I noticed no hesitation, surging, or vibration, and trust me I was listening for it because of this forum.

I'm not doubting anyone here at all, just throwing out the fact that the VCM tuning for the Pilot was honestly, HONESTLY, imperceptable to me. My aunt had no idea what I was doing turning the A/C off trying to listen for something. She never felt it or even knew what I was talking about, and the Pilot would be for her.

Has anyone heard if the Odyssey with 6-4-3 VCM has had the problems of the Accord?

golfrski

right on

wardco

Marsha,
This seems to be a problem with a very small number of V6 Accords. A handful of posters has kept the issue alive on this board for months. I've test driven 2008 V6 Accords twice with no noticible hesitation during shifting. While I feel for these individuals, their experience does not refect, in my opinion, the likely experience of the majority of V6 Accord buyers. I keep wondering what their purpose is to keep this thread alive, since their dialogue should appropriately be with Honda.

golfrski

Whatever.................

jam1000

If the issue were limited to a "very small" number of the V6 Accords, Honda would not have changed its advertising. Having a "dialogue" with Honda is a misnomer, since Honda does not actually say anything beside the car is operating normally (given what one presumes its definition of "nearly", as opposed to "completely", seamless operation must be).

parviz

For people (even a handful) who are having problems with their VCM, this forum would be a great spot to keep the issue alive if Honda is not acknowledging or "understanding" their problem. I know what they are going through. In 1982, I bought a 82 Trans Am, first year to make majoe changes, including the new body style (remember the Kitt car in the Knight Rider?!), fuel injection and other computer controlled features. I experienced lots of problems including random jerking, RPM jumping up and down and other issues but the dealer and the manufacturer kept on insisting that was normal, after making a big stink out of it the dealer changed few parts but nothing got fixed abd they just said it was all normal. (at the time I was living in a state w/o lemon law). I ended up spending a lot of only on the car after warranty expired and then losing alot of money on it till it was finally replaced. This forum may have been the reason Honda changed its advertising material regarding VCM. Having said that, I would really like to get a chance to drive one of the cars that are being reported as having problems and compare it to mine to see the difference but that seems not be be practical as I think most of the people reporting problems are from the east coast.

cstiles

There are only 3 or 4 total people on these forums who are directly attributing this problem to VCM. Others are pointing to Grade Logic transmission, or maybe Drive By Wire, as possible culprits. Even for those suggesting the problem is VCM, for some it may be engine mounts, for others it may be another component, like the engine control module. Complaints are inconsistent as far as sensation or severity. At least 2 or 3 have said the problem was there, but has subsided completely or is lessened compared to what was first experienced.

A few people who were most vocal have disappeared completely.....itochu, phantomv, rodarski, etc. Not sure if they were banned by Edmunds, or if they have gone on to other issues in their lives.

But suffice to say, it's not a large number of people who are vocal about this problem. And few new folks have come to express similar problems.

And there is almost no news outside these forums that track with these complaints.

Anyone in Illinois with this issue? I'd love to drive your car just to see what you are talking about.

marsha7

I am not denying that a symptom may exist, I am simply saying that a class action lawsuit may not be the correct "vehicle" (what a sense of humor I have) for resolution...

This forum may be the only place where folks with the same symptoms may find additional questions and maybe some answers...

I know if it was me with a car that I thought was defective, I would be posting hourly...I feel for those who think they have a defect, I just question the class action lawsuit theory...

The previous poster noted that the problems seem to be from the east coast...if true, maybe there was a different manufacturer of the VCM units for cars made for the east coast...maybe one batch of VCM units has a slight programming error and it only shows up in vehicles that Honda sent to east coast dealers...

After all, when there are food recalls, companies often note that the shipmenst of food were only restricted to, say, 10 states, all west of the Rockies...maybe the same happened with Honda, and there was a 3 month span of production that had substandard VCM units...

Just guessing...but still, the class action may be impractical...

kay14

There are only 3 or 4 total people on these forums who are directly attributing this problem to VCM.

I dont come to this site much, but I thought the purpose was for cross-talk. Is there a minimum number of people who have to have a problem before it qualifies for a thread? It's like the honda transmissions - I've read that only 3 percent of them are bad. That's fine if you're one of the 97 percent that got a good one, but if you weren't - well, you pay the price. Our well-maintained 4 cyl accord has had four (4) transmissions in less than 95,000 miles and this one clunks between gears and briefly pauses when put in gear before it gives a hard grab. Is the same true of the VCM technology? If you are one of those with the problems you are simply to suck it in? We test drove the VCM accords and each of ours constantly surged off and on like an a/c unit kicking in, but the a/c wasn't on. I fortunately wont join the disgruntled accord VCM owners because of this thread. I thank those who have voiced their concerns as they saved us a lot of aggrevation and money. We wish we had known about the transmissions before we bought our accord!

jam1000

And, of course, that there may be only 3 or 4 people currently on this thread raising issues doesn't mean that there are only 3-4 people in the country having those issues. A more realistic measure might be the 3-4 members of this thread currently posting (plus perhaps some other owners who have posted in the past) as a percentage of the number of '08 V6 owners who are members of the Townhall Forums.

pat

Not really, because there is nothing statistically accurate about the numbers of people with VCM issues who are also posting here. The important thing is that we have some members who are having some issues and this is a fine place for them to explore them, whatever percentage of owners they represent.

Now, I'd like to ask everyone to get back to the subject. And that subject is the VCM, not the participants of this discussion.

Thanks!

elroy5

Has anyone with VCM problems had their "Drive by Wire" throttle, or engine mounts changed, to try and correct the surges or vibrations? Have any of these cars had serious attempts at a fix? Parts changed?

houdini1

From a legal standpoint, this basically boils down to a product liability issue.

Not really. It may be some type of liability issue but not products liability. To be a products liability issue there must be some form of bodily injury or actual property damage involved. In other words you have to be physically injured by the product or the product has to have caused damage to some other property you own.

jam1000

Will do. I did not think I was commenting about any of the participants on this thread, but instead responding to the point made or suggested by (or that I inferred from) several others that, because there are only 3-4 posters on these boards complaining about VCM, there are only 3-4 people in world who have this issue (or at least that it is an extremely isolated occurrence).

My apologies for any confusion.

jam1000

I've not. In my case, at any rate, the problem seems to be that Honda / the dealership won't undertake any warranty work b/c they say the car is operating as intended, and doing this work on my own (or having someone else do it) would almost certainly blow the warranty.

pat

Yes. As I said, I was speaking to everyone, not just you. Thanks!

elroy5

I think, if it were me, and the car was unbearable to drive, I would have to try something myself. For the vibration issue, I would maybe jack the engine up, and try adjusting the engine mounts. Or, for the surging issue, buy a DBW throttle, and try changing that, to see if it made any difference. I checked the price for the DBW throttle, and for the 08 V6 it was about $130. To my amazement, the price for the DBW throttle on my 03 V6 was at least a $100 more :confuse: .

jam1000

I guess you get what you pay for .

roy21

Im reading about that only 3-4 people are complaining about having problems with their vcm. Well add me to the list also. its terrible,its very noticable.It will drive you crazy. I do think something should be done by Honda. If they have engineers that were smart enough to develop,surely they can find a solution to fix it. It is a problem that will nor go away.

Roy

marsha7

is growing...I see a class action in my future.....NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

imidazol97

I've been involved in several class action suits. It's still my opinion the attorneys are the ones getting any money; the wronged get a pittance.

This is ironic to be mentioned today because one of the great class action lawyers had to testify today about his part in one of the suits--Stan Chesley, Cincinnati. Apparently there's a problem with how the things were handled. I'll have to do some reading.

"Cincinnati lawyer Stan Chesley, who helped negotiate Kentucky’s $200 million fen-phen settlement, has disclosed he won’t testify for three fellow lawyers accused of bilking their clients out of $46 million." Class action gone wrong

I suspect a class action suit would not benefit the owners who do have a problematic car.

golfrski

I would tend to agree. with the sudden change in advertising the whole this is suspect... you have to understand that for honda to change ALL their advertising and marketing materials this is a HUGE and costly undertaking... something a "few" complaints would not facilitate... this is a much larger issue that is most likely taking place at the dealer levels and has been escalated to honda to the degree that this "change" has been made,,,,, its very suspect, in my opinion. while a CAA may look at this, I would think this combined with "other" avenues for consumer assistance and support will yield more personal complaints and settlements?

ljgbjg

It is impossible to compare the Pilot or Odyssey's VCM operation with the Accord. There are enough significant other differences between the vehicles to make that an apples/oranges thing - weight, AWD vs. FWD being among the most signifcant. The VCM operation would be more noticeable in the Accord because of its lighter weight, and Honda now ackowledges that fact with its change in advertising - stating the VCM is NEARLY seamless, rather than COMPLETELY seamless. i think that fact alone puts the argument to bed here regarding those who have had problems - it is NOT completely seamless by Honda's own words, and thus noticeable. Period. And that has been foundation of the bulk of the complaints here.

That said, as I have stated, my car "cured" itself. Not only that but I checked highway mileage this weekend - 156 miles at about 80 MPH from NYC to Clarks' Summit, PA - 6 gallons, or 26 MPH. 138 miles from Clark's Summit to Syracuse , NY at 70-75 MPH? 4.6 gallons or 30 MPG

I am impressed, and beginning to love the car more!

slingshot80

Just drove my brand new EXL V-6 about 270 highway miles today. I would say the transition was somewhat noticeable but not bothersome. The ECO Light was on most of the trip. The constant droning noise I found much more objectionable.
Also noticed going up hills at 10 to 20 mph, some hesitation. Is this due to the gearing? On the plus side the gas tank registered 1/2 full at 245 miles. Will take and post the mileage tomorrow night under the mileage thread.

roy21

Hey..How many miles did you have when the VCM problem went away ? I hope mind does the same.

Roy 21

marsha7

I have often questioned why, in a class action suit, the injured received so little and the lawyers received so much...

bug4

Marsha7 ---- To answer your question: Because, in class actions, the class members generally do not have a big amount of proven damages. If they did, they would "opt out" of the class suit and bring their own suit. Generally, no plaintiff is required to join the class and accept the award.

parviz

"....the class members generally do not have a big amount of proven damages..."

And the ironic thing is that the lawyers don't have any damage at all

ljgbjg

It all of a sudden stopped after about 3000 miles and can only suspect the active engine mounts having been the problem and simply needed a little longer to break in and better work to offset the vibration you sense when the engine goes into and out of the 3-4-6 cylinder operation.

I can REALLY empathize with anyone experiencing what I did for the first 3000 miles. I do find it VERY interesting that Honda has changed its advertising - clearly they did not do so because 3 or 4 people on here have been complaining about the VCM. No, I suspect there is a groundswell of complaints and, worse yet, people telling dealers they will never buy another Honda again after having this "completely seamless" VCM foisted on them. Ours is not completely seamless - probably closer to the "nearly" seamless as now described - you REALLY have to be looking to feel something - before it would make my wife, as a passenger, ill. Good luck!

cstiles

If there is indeed a "groundswell" of complaints, I suspect we would be hearing about it outside of the Edmunds forums. Not saying there isn't a groundswell, but it hasn't hit the wide world of sports outside Edmunds yet, in terms of comments on Honda-specific sites, TSBs, recalls, and other "smoking gun" resources in this Internet age. And sales of the Accord continue to be very strong, so this issue may not be apparent during test drives.

There are different reasons why Honda may alter its advertising propaganda, beyond their being a significant design or mechanical problem. We will find out in good time.

ljgbjg

While there may be different reasons for their having changed their advertising, I still suspect a groundswell of complaints and acknowledgement by Honda of the comments by a majority of road testers that the VCM is, at least noticeable, and certainly NOT seamless. Letters to the FTC and various Attorneys General about their false advertising might also have had something to do with it

golfrski

Websters:

mislead

Main Entry: mis·lead
Pronunciation: \ˌmis-ˈlēd\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): mis·led \-ˈled\; mis·lead·ing
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
: to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit
intransitive verb
: to lead astray : give a wrong impression
synonyms see deceive
— mis·lead·er noun
— mis·lead·ing·ly \-ˈlē-diŋ-lē\ adverb

elroy5

I find it hard to believe that anyone who bought an 08 VCM Accord, would have changed his/her mind, based on that one word in the advertising. This should be a wake-up call to everyone to do a THOROUGH TEST DRIVE, before buying any car.

ljgbjg

Having had a car with many of the problems experienced by other posters here, only to happily have it experience the apparent anomaly of "curing" itself of the VCM ills, I continue to fail to understand those posters who questioned or still do doubt the experiences of golfrski, myself (for awhile anyway) and others, and comment about the change of Honda's advertising - clearly documented, the reasons therefore, and why it is of no help to our/their case . Some of these people had not even driven the car, and do not even OWN one, yet still express their opinions of it. Why take this VCM thing so personally people? And why try to quash any glimmer of hope for anyone having problems that Honda may be acknoledging them in some way? There have been, are, and will, I am sure, continue to be new buyers of the VCM V6 who also experience what others of us have - in fact there have been several recently. Each of us has tried to contribute to the others' solving their problems by sharing our experiences with Service Managers, Honda reps, etc. But it is not personal - it is made personal when others express their doubts, question our experiences, etc. If you own a VCM equipped car and have not had these problems - great for you and certainly good for everyone to hear about how good it is when it works right, and none of us who had/have problems doubted you. If you don't own one, "walk a mile in my shoes" before chiming in. How about showing all of those who have had and/or continue to have negative experiences the same respect. Case in point - Honda changed its advertising from "completely seamless" to "nearly seamless" - this is without a doubt a significant matter for those with problems - not because of why they changed it but because they DID. I am sure no one bought their car SOLELY because Honda advertised it was completely seamless, but the fact that they changed it to a lesser standard, "nearly", is an admission - an acquiescence, a capitulation - call it what you will, that the VCM IS noticeable, and not only to the "3 or 4" people posting here - itochu, phantomv, merlion, golfrski.

roy21

Thanks for the post. Im one of those who own and experience the VCM problem,its for real. Mind is also "seamless".

Roy 21

ljgbjg

I hope you do experience what I did with my car - it was driving me nuts, and making my wife as a passenger, ill. While almost every reviewer of the car has commented on the VCM being noticeable, and its operation may vary from one car to another, the WSJ reviewer said it best as far as I was concerned - "maddening behavior". Despite posts to the contrary, and by a non-owner of a 2008 with VCM by the way, Honda did not change its website for no reason. Something is up. Before my car corrected itself, I sent letters to various attorneys general and to the FTC documenting Honda's claims, every review to the contrary, and the experiences of posters on this website. Did it have that consequence? Did the FTC take Honda to task? Did they hear from state Attorneys General about fraudulent advertising? I don't know. But why others who do not even own the car have to have a negative comment to make or opinion to express about this one "victory" as I see it, is beyond me. As they say, " What skin do they have in the game?" Why is it so personal with them?

marsha7

Thanks...I know the actual answer to my posted thought, but, still, if billions are awarded in a suit, and the plaintiffs are in the 1000s (may change if hundreds of thousands of plaintiffs), there should be more money for each plaintiff than a coupon for a free pack of cigarettes...

If I had a settlement of 10 billion, even with a fee of 1/3 ($3.3 billion), I would certainly reduce my fee by 95% and still have enough to live on for 10 generations...how much does anyone need/want???

bug4

Just for the record, I've never heard of the plaintiffs' attorneys getting their full contingent fee in cases where there is a HUGE recovery. In virtually every class action suit, the judge takes a hard look at the fee arrangements and, one way or the other, they get reduced. Indeed, I don't think any law firm, even those that shell out millions to fund the suit, can justify a billion dollar fee. But, to my knowledge, that hasn't happened. Several years back, NYU did a study and found that the average take by the plaintiffs' lawyers in a class action was 21.9%. Further, a scaling effect exists, where fees constitute a lower percentage of the client's recovery as the client's recovery increases. So, in big cases, the lawyers get less. Finally, particularly in federal court, fees closely correlate with risk - the higher the risk of accepting and prosecuting the case, the higher the fee. I wouldn't suggest that we have the most efficient means of compensating large groups of plaintiffs in the U.S.- but I've yet to see a better one that still protects consumer safety!

houdini1

21% ain't bad. Remember how many lawyers got rich over the tobacco settlements?

dmer

Have owned 4 Acura Legends from 1986 and still have a 1995 with 140K miles. Owned 1980 Accord.

Attraction for me with these cars has been the ability to keep them for a lot of years and register high mileage. My 95 Legend is still a very solid car and terrific to drive. I find the 08 Accord V6 sedan very appealing but the VCM may deter me and certainly the comments on this forum. The concept of shutting off cylinders is something I find unappealing because of added complexity but if it works and is reliable.....

Unfortunately, the Honda website gives negative information on the transition to 3 cylinder operation by stating the radio plays out of phase. This is obviously an aural trick to try and overcome something that the mecahanical systems can't accomplish themselves. Personally, I'm not sure of this sort of technology could ever be made to work seamlessly.

Most of the complaints on here strike me as entirely reasonable but I would have to ask if they were apparent during a test drive? I will plan to test drive this car but I'm concerned that a failure of the systems that manage this function, at lets say the 125K mark, might mean getting rid of the car. I'm also curious if, 3 cyl operation kicks in a 60MPH on the highway, what are the engine RPM's?

I would be looking for the 08 V6 Sedan to give me a drive quality reminiscent of the Legend. Perhaps Honda might be better served by making this system optional?

golfrski

The Test Drive:

My experience is this: When driving the car at lower speeds (mostly city driving) you tend to not notice the VCM surging AS OFTEN. reason, the car is never cruising long enough to notice the maddening effects. This is due to alot of starting, stopping and acceleration etc typical with city driving and TEST DRIVES. Aslo, it should be noted that the 45-50 MPH and 60-70MPH vibration issues are masked by the typical test drive run through. Take the car for an hour... drive in the city, drive multiple terrains. most importantly take it out on the highway for a 30 min drive. test with Cruise on and off and def test between 60-70MPH for longer durations.. be sure to test drive the vehicle you are looking to BUY not the demo (at least on your final test drive) if it doesnt demonstrate surging, lurching and vibration in the steering wheel and seat then you are golden. I will bet you my car though, it will. :sick:

dmer

Thanks for the feedback. Do you know if Honda plans to continue with the present system, or drop it? Also, what's the supposed mileage advantage of VCM over standard operation?

golfrski

It would appear Honda is committed to the technology based on what I have read and heard from the dealers I have spoken to, not sure about the current design of the VCM and its operation this is a better question for Honda to answer.. fuel performance has been a debated topic here as well as elsewhere...no real opinon on these from me. I have been so preoccupied with the issues related to my cars VCM/ vibration to be honest I couldnt even tell you what gas milage I am getting. How ironic.

ljgbjg

Kind of impossible to compare VCM with "standard operation" because there is no automatic transmission V6 without VCM and the 6 speed manual has a very different final drive ratio. Just for the sake of discussion we got 26 MPG over 156 miles at 80 MPH, then checked again at 70-75 over 138 miles and got 30. Pretty darn good for a 3600 pound sedan - and this was in upstate NY, not Texas or Iowa I STILL think the non VCM V6 with a 6 speed auto transmission with taller overdrive would have improved mileage better and without the complications and annoyances of VCM.