Sorry to jump in like this regarding the VCM. Honda always seems to want to be so far out on the leading edge of technology that they manage to mess it up. My past experience with Honda generators, lawn equipment, cars, and motorcycles is that they always manage to screw it up on the first or second iteration.
Also Honda can do no wrong. They usually never admit that there is a problem. BMW motorcycles and Porsche have the same attitude, however they usually will fix a warranty or defect problem no matter what their cost but never admit to there being a problem.
How can Chevy get it right? I had an almost brand new Hertz 2008 Impala in April with the high output V6 and their version of VCM. I drove from Phoenix to Flagstaff then through Las Vegas to St. George, UT to Salt Lake City. I drove over 1600 miles. I could see on the Info display the engine in either 3 or 6 cylinder modes. I drove at speeds from 30 MPH to 80+ MPH, up and down mountain passes, some over 8000 feet with and without the cruise control.
If I hadn't had the Info display set to show the VCM operating, I would not have known the engine had it. I noticed that at 65 MPH on a level stretch of Route 93 from Kingman to LV back down at a reasonable altitude that the car was getting 35 MPG. At 80 MPH or going up and down mountains it was always in 6 cylinder mode. What I didn't see was the constant switching back and forth between 3 and 6 cylinders.
I was unaware that GM had moved their cylinder deactivation scheme to a V6. The 5.3L V8 has had it since 06, but this is the first I've heard of it being used on a six.....
Are you sure you don't mean the 5.3L V6 used in the Impala SS? If you are, its my feeling that any comparison between the GM and Honda cylinder management is a bit unfair. The V8 has a bit more torque, and the cylinder management really doesn't seem to add any more mileage gain than Honda's V6 VCM does......
Honda's previous 6/3 system in the Odyssey does not seem to have ever had the problems like those reported here about the 6-4-3- system. Perhaps that added mode is the issue.
It would be highly beneficial to all here if you could take the time to talk further about the "major fix"... too many of us are struggling and fighting with honda to not know what that might be.. please expand if possible?
The "major fix" was electrical in nature. Like I said, it would take a while to type it but basically they had to re-do the whole wiring harness for the VCM. Based on my issues, and what I have read here from others, it does not sound like that we have the same problem (I could be wrong though) These happened before the cars even got off the lot. If you give me your email, I'll send you some info on the dealer.
does this relate at all to the infamous wheel shimmy/steering wheel vibration when the VCM kicks in at 60-65 MPH? If not, is anybody in here aware of a wheel shimmy fix? I know there are several owners in several Honda forums with the wheel shimmy/steering vibration problem between 50-80 MPH
Problem is it is not in the tires but the drivetrain powering the front wheels - you are getting vibrations transmitted thourgh the half shafts to the front wheels from the 3 cylinder operation. I suspect you have a problem with the active engine mounts not functioning properly to offset those vibrations. Open your window and drive slowly enough on a side street without traffic that you can hear the engine and you will HEAR what I am talking about - very strange sounds fomr the essentially slant 3 cylinder engine (only the back bank of cylinders operates). There is only one thing between the engine and the rest of the car - those engine mounts. I would focus on them and not take no for an answer from Honda. Here was my letter to them:
American Honda Motor Co., Inc. Honda Automobile Customer Service 1919 Torrance Boulevard Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7D Torrance, CA 90501-2746
I have owned over a dozen Honda and Acura cars since our first 1981 Accord 4 door sedan, and out over 400,000 miles on them.
In addition our son bought and drives a 2007 Accord V6 because of our experiences and his own with the 1990 Legend V6 we had bought for him. In all the years of ownership I have NEVER had the occasion to complain about the cars – they have consistently been GREAT, reliable, economical performers that have safely transported our family almost 400,000 miles without injury, breakdown, serious mechanical failure despite one accident in which the ’88 Legend was totaled and my wife and kids unhurt. I have previously written letters to Acura extolling the virtues of its cars.
It saddens me that after all these years of devotion and loyalty, I would buy the ’08 Accord EXL V6, promised that the VCM was “completely seamless and unnoticeable” only to find that it is absolutely NOT – it constantly “surges” at highway speeds, even on cruise, to the extent that it makes my wife ill. Coupled with the “grade logic” transmission, at 65 on cruise control when going downhill, the car downshifted with such ferocity that my wife and I in the front, and my son and his wife in the rear seat, were thrown violently into our shoulder harnesses while the “grade logic” coupled with the cruise control, attempted to maintain a ‘steady” speed. This drive train is unlike any other Honda I have ever driven – and will be my last unless something is done to address this problem. It is the most herky, jerky uncivilized drive train I have ever experienced in a car - and I have owned many other brands, engine types, transmissions, etc.
Let me quote Honda’s website on the operation of the VCM:
“The transition between the three operating modes is completely seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers.”
Really?? Aside from the many posts on car space, allow me to quote some road tests:
January25, 2008 Wall Street Journal reviewer:
"... the Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior. That the Accord managed only 22 miles per gallon during my testing ... only made this all the more annoJanuary25, 2008 Wall Street Journal reviewer:
AutoWeek 8/21/07
“When driving the multi-cylinder deactivation V6, we did detect a hybrid-like torque on/torque off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 mph when under slight throttle(at about 2000 to 2500 RPM). Because the green “ECO” indicator was illuminated, showing that the engine was running in fuel saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four and three cylinder modes.”
USA Today 8/24/07
“If you step up too the V6 model, you’ll get blazing engine performance but rougher down shifting than in the 4 cylinder cars. Also a sensitive driver can feel the V6 go through its multi cylinder transitions.”
Motor Trend October 2007
This article was all speculation. When the car was actually comparison tested against the Camry, Malibu and Sentra it came in third place.
Noise cancellation technology eliminates the odd noises produced by a V6 running on three or four cylinders. The transitions cannot be heard or felt--to know which mode the engine is in, it's generally necessary to rely on the "ECO" light.
That said, early in my test drive of the V6 I did notice a low frequency thrumming when cruising around 60 miles per hour. And the sunroof was closed. At first I wondered if this might be a by-product of the noise cancellation. But the noise eventually faded away, so I now suspect the tires. If the noise was endemic to the design, many people would find it too irritating to live with.
http://www.web2carz.com/6596/2008/Honda/Accord/reviews/driving-performance Like GM and Chrysler systems designed to save gas on big V8s, VCM changes the number of engine cylinders working at any given time and load to save fuel. The previous example switched off three cylinders (half the V6) when they weren't needed, but this new one changes between six, four, and three cylinders for more fuel-stretching choices. The system is completely automatic and unknown to the driver except for two things: The Eco light illuminates on the dash when the system is on, and there's a slight hunting sensation as it switches back-and-forth between four and three cylinders at certain speeds, but you'll need to be paying attention to notice that.
CONCLUSION I have LOVED all our Hondas. But, this is one HONDA I will hate until the day I get rid of it, and unless Honda does something for me and all the others who feel we were duped by false advertising, will make it my crusade to see that this fraud is outed and Honda pays for it. Copies of this letter are going to the FTC and the New York State Attorney General’s office. A complaint has been filed with the NHTSA. I will post on every message board I can find - I feel it only fair to let others not only know my past loyalty to Honda, but also know what it got me - a surging, bucking, grade logic downshifting, car with "maddening behavior". I will
“The Accord Sedan’s V-6 features the latest generation of Variable Cylinder Management™ (VCM®) technology. This system can activate and deactivate the engine’s cylinders as needed to meet the demands of both acceleration and fuel savings. When maximum torque is required, all six cylinders are firing. During steady cruising speeds , VCM shuts down one bank of cylinders. In this mode, the audio system’s Active Noise Cancellation™ (ANC) function generates out-of-phase sound waves to cancel out any undesirable noise that may be due to the harmonics of 3-cylinder operation. As cruising speed increases the engine moves to a 4-cylinder mode for extra cruising power. To help keep engine vibration from reaching the cabin in every mode, active engine mounts automatically adjust their firmness to help absorb energy. The transition between the three operating modes is completely seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers.”
This advertising is an absolute bald faced lie supported by numerous professional road test opinions:
Wall Street Journal 1/25/08 "... the Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior. That the Accord managed only 22 miles per gallon during my testing ... only made this all the more annoying
AutoWeek 8/21/07 “When driving the multi-cylinder deactivation V6, we did detect a hybrid-like torque on/torque off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 mph when under slight throttle(at about 2000 to 2500 RPM). Because the green “ECO” indicator was illuminated, showing that the engine was running in fuel saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four and three cylinder modes.”
USA Today 8/24/07 “If you step up too the V6 model, you’ll get blazing engine performance but rougher down shifting than in the 4 cylinder cars. Also a sensitive driver can feel the V6 go through its multi cylinder transitions.”
Motor Trend October 2007 This article was all speculation. When the car was actually comparison tested against the Camry, Malibu and Sentra it came in third place.
http://www.epinions.com/content_403535007364 Noise cancellation technology eliminates the odd noises produced by a V6 running on three or four cylinders. The transitions cannot be heard or felt--to know which mode the engine is in, it's generally necessary to rely on the "ECO" light.
That said, early in my test drive of the V6 I did notice a low frequency thrumming when cruising around 60 miles per hour. And the sunroof was closed. At first I wondered if this might be a by-product of the noise cancellation. But the noise eventually faded away, so I now suspect the tires. If the noise was endemic to the design, many people would find it too irritating to live with.
http://www.web2carz.com/6596/2008/Honda/Accord/reviews/driving-performance Like GM and Chrysler systems designed to save gas on big V8s, VCM changes the number of engine cylinders working at any given time and load to save fuel. The previous example switched off three cylinders (half the V6) when they weren't needed, but this new one changes between six, four, and three cylinders for more fuel-stretching choices. The system is completely automatic and unknown to the driver except for two things: The Eco light illuminates on the dash when the system is on, and there's a slight hunting sensation as it switches back-and-forth between four and three cylinders at certain speeds, but you'll need to be paying attention to notice that.
I have no axe to grind with Honda. I have owned numerous Honda and Acrua products since 1981.
I have LOVED all our Hondas. But, this drive train is unlike any other Honda I have ever driven, and I will hate it until the day I get rid of it, and will crusade against Honda unless it does something for me and all the others who were duped by false advertising. I bought the’08 Accord EXL V6 being promised that the VCM was “completely seamless and unnoticeable” only to find that it is absolutely NOT –it is a surging, bucking, grade logic downshifting, car with "maddening behavior" that constantly “surges” at highway speeds, even on cruise, to the extent that it makes my wife ill. Coupled with the “grade logic” transmission, at 65 on cruise control when going downhill, the car downshifted with such ferocity that my wife and I in the front, and my son and his wife in the rear seat, were thrown violently into our shoulder harnesses while the “grade logic” coupled with the cruise control, attempted to maintain a ‘steady” speed.
PLEASE – HELP us come up with a fix for this from Honda!!! They deny any problem exists; dealers say the cars are operating within “normal operating limits”. A replacement chip, an on /off switch, SOMETHING!!! It may require some sort of class action against Honda. A copy of my letter to Honda is enclosed.
Since my letters I received phone calls from Honda but whenever I tried to call them back I coud not get through. Interestingly enough their advertising changed to "nearly" seamless.
I wish you luck with your car - mine "cured" itself - the vibration and "surging" went away and I am happy to say I like the car now. Doesn't change what it WAS at first.
thanks for the info, I think we are dead in the water with Honda. I cant wait to trade and take my lumps. Never again. I should have known better,it sounded to good to be true.
All my motor mounts were tested and all are fine. Problem persists and its virtually unbearable for us. We are totally stuck and honda refuses to do anything other than state its normal even though the techs and engineers and dealer have agreed its not.. its honestly a horrific experince after beingh a loyal Honda customer for 23 years..... this is a wake up call for us.
as I stated almost a year ago here, I will "bet Honda changes their advertising",,,,, and suprise suprise,, They have. I will also bet here now, that the 2009's do not demonstrate these issues... we should know an a month or two when they hit the lots. and we'll be test driving many of them to see............
Sorry to hear that golfrski - I wish I could help you out - God knows I have tried! Nothing worse than a car in the shop all the time or a miserable vehicle to simply drive. I can empathize - mine was horrible until it just cured itself. I have no idea what was wrong but whatever it was it is gone. My son drove it this weekend and could not believe the difference, having driven it before - I hope you can reach some sort of satisfactory resolution, or if I were you I would never buy Honda again. It just isn't right to treat a loyal faithful customer that way.
Well... I took my car in to service and gave them all the info etc. I got it back 48 hours later. I was told that everything was working to specs: and design.
Just as I expected. We are stuck with it. Unless we get lucky and they come out with a fix later or it corrects its self.
Thanks I just wish we had more detail info on exactly what steps they said the dealer should take to fix it.... your explanation was too general for my service manager and he has not heard of any type of Flash updates, etc etc
Did you ever hear back from the attorney general, the FTC, etc.?
Did you write back to Honda or the other parties to let them know that your car managed to fix itself and that you now like the car, to set the record straight?
We are now almost a year into this topic, and there is still no answer as far as what is going on with a small number of VCM-equipped Accords. References made by some people regarding software flashes and electrical fixes originally sounded promising, but appear to be dead ends? Is anybody out there with any new, useful information for current and prospective Accord owners?
Not me..... Honda blowing us off and disregarding our dissatisfaction with the car... vibration persists as does the surging.. no miracle fix for this Accord owner has occured. the fact that some posters have stated in cliff note format that techs have stated there is a fix seems suspicious to me. Clearly if I found fix, you folks would get the King James version.
I feel your frustration. Hope that others experience the same problem to warrant a broader NHTSA analysis. But for some reason we aren't seeing comments like this elsewhere.
The AG referred mw to the NHTSA - duh. I received a response from the FTC acknolwedging my complaint - nothing more that I know of. Honda tried calling me but I miseed their calls. I tried calling back but goit voice mail and no reply.
"Coupled with the 'grade logic' transmission, at 65 on cruise control when going downhill, the car downshifted with such ferocity that my wife and I in the front, and my son and his wife in the rear seat, were thrown violently into our shoulder harnesses"
Did your grade logic issue also correct itself along with your VCM, or are you still being thrown violently into your shoulder harness when the car is cruising at speed?
Accord VCM gas mileage is no big deal - get this about the 361 HP Pontiac G8 -
"There is some good news on that front. Like many of GM’s V-8 engines, the one in the G8 has "active fuel management," which shuts four of the cylinders when you don’t need so much power. It also has a very tall overdrive sixth gear that lets you roll down the highway at 65 mph while the engine spins at a lazy 1,600 rpm. With the cruise control set at 75 mph, the G8 returned 26 mpg, not bad, but at 60 mph it jumped to 32 mpg. "
Ya know....I saw the first G8 on the road the other day. I've really, really wanted to like these cars. But, just like the previous GTO, them are some ugly beasts.
I saw one review that stated in town driving yielded 16 MPG, too....on the required premium fuel.
I suspect they are running on 8 more than 4 in town with the acceleration you are constantly doing. But 32 MPG on the highway is sick. Makes the VCM V6 look like a gas guzzler!
That's assuming this car can actually deliver on that kind of mileage.
The pushrod V8 is rated 15/24 with 361 HP, while the DOHC V6 is rated 17/25 with 256 HP. Not that big a spread between the two motors in terms of gas mileage, probably thanks to the cylinder deactivation and 6 speeds on the V8.
I don't think the car is ugly. It looks a little dated, but to my eyes this car has cleaner and better exterior styling than the Accord. The G8 is also a step up over the tragically discontinued GTO (both Holdens imported from Australia).
Regarding Honda VCM, these boards have been awfully quiet. I was at my Honda dealer a couple days ago having my Ody serviced, and I asked if there were any issues or news about VCM. They report no major complaints or problems. For whatever that is worth.
August Car & Driver had a short take article on the V6 G8 and during their test it only returned 17 mpg. Is this another instance of the larger engine delivering near or equal fuel economy then it's less powered model due to having to work less to pull around nearly the same weight? That and as you pointed out the extra cog & cylinder management must surely be contributing. It also proved to be slightly slower than the Accord V6. I agree on the looks in that to my eyes it looks better than the GTO. Unless some big shakeup occurs in the universe I think it's re-sale value after 4 or 5 years would pale in comparison to the Accord.
I helped a friend buy an '08 Accord recently. Have to say, I was impressed by it. Slap an Acura badge on it, and you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference (naturally).
Anyway, we drove both the V6 and the I4. V6 was very nice. Test drove it first.....in town, highway, twisties. No surges (not on the highway, not in town). Matter of fact, I'd say the VCM WAS imperceptible on the one we drove (coupe, automatic with 9 miles on the odo).
My friend ended up with an I4 (which is also very nice). She's got about 1,200 miles on it now. Very pleased....getting 26-29 MPG depending on her driving mix. She hasn't gone through a tank of all highway driving yet. But, I'd bet she exceeds the 31 MPG the sticker states.
I'm not a mechanic, but aren't the auto tranny's in these cars "adaptable"? Over time, don't they adjust to a driver's style of driving?
Perhaps that's the issue here. The ECU and tranny "map" has been somehow tripped up to cause this.
Anyone who's having an issue, I'd ask the Honda service dept to "flash" the logic control so it resets.
While a much different vehicle, I've got a Tahoe which also utilizes cylinder deactivation. When new, it showed some of the same symptoms I've heard others talk about here. After about 4,000 miles, it smoothed right out (got 30,000 on it now). Now, I can't tell when it shifts in and out of cylinder deactivation mode.
Well, not going to do that, but pretty amazing mileage from a high performance V8. :P 1600 RPM at 65 MPH? Oh, I could only wish for that from the V6 versus 2600 at 75. Got rid of my S2000 - 4000 RPM at 75 MPH. Drove me crazy on trips.
Good point, does anyone really know if newer cars adapt to our driving habits, like as if they need to be trained for awhile to get full performance? There has to be some truth to it, like if you drive a V8 really casually, would it is adapt to that?
If the car has only one driver, I can see how a car could get used to his/her style. But if there are two or more divers, it would end up somewhere in the middle, or constantly confused .
bvd....while I don't claim to be a "guru" regarding grade logic trannys and multidisplacement technology, the way it's been explained to me by my Chevy tech, there are multiple "maps" programmed into the logic controls of the transmission. For example, if you are the type of driver who just feathers the gas peddle all the time, there may be a map that the logic would use to get the car into a higher gear, quicker. Conversely, if you tend to be heavier on the gas peddle, the map would hold onto a lower gear longer.
Couple that with the engine moving in and out of cylinder deactivation/activation mode, I can see where there may be an instance where a vehicle is shifting from a few cylinders firing, to all cylinders firing, at the same time the trans is shifting into a lower gear. That would provide the "jolt" I hear some people talking about here.
In my Tahoe, that happened a few times when it was new. But, once the "maps" were were set over a period of time (as it chose which program map to use for my style of driving), that smoothed right out to the point I don't feel any shift in activation or deactivation of cylinders.
I'd bet that's what some people are feeling in their VCM Accords. If you take it to the dealer, and let them flash the ECU that controls the VCM and the auto transmission to it's default, and let it "re-learn", it would probably go away.
A couple months ago, there was some speculation whether there was "driver error" at work with the complaints about VCM. It's possible that a driver must adjust his driving style to maximize the benefits of VCM (and also compensate for Grade Logic transmission).
It's possible that VCM can fix itself through engine mounts sealing, drivelines breaking in, or intelligent transmissions "adjusting" to the behavior of the driver. But, there is also the possibility that some who complain about VCM have simply not adjusted their driving style to match the dynamics of this car.
My Honda dealer has consistently told me that although they don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with VCM, they do acknowledge that this Accord is very different from prior Accords. Honda owners who bought this car expecting it to be more of the same may have been shocked that this car is much larger, has different driving dynamics, and looks/feels different. Car and Driver magazine, which has had a lovefest with Honda for many years, acknowledges that this current Accord is more of an "appliance"...more Camry-like than ever before. The current Accord is arguably less of a driver's car. It is easily the most complicated Accord ever. And VCM contributes to that complexity.
Just as grade logic adjusts to the driver, perhaps it takes time for VCM to adjust to the driver? Or it takes time for the driver adjust to VCM? Or is it a little of both?
All of this would be fine had Honda not lied and mislead the early buyers such as myself with the claim of it being seemless and unnoticable to the driver. They have since moved to CYA mode with the marketing change. I expect the car to perform just like the Company that built it says it should. When my car does not perform as Honda says and I have it checked out and am told there is nothing "broken" on my car, well there is a MAJOR disconnect. I have been trying to drive this car as little as possible so that I can get to Sept. Once all of the new models come out (Non Honda that is), this junker is gone and I will never purchase Honda again. This after 17 loyal years. I have been 150% disappointed in Honda's response to fixing issues on a 1st year re-design. VCM is not the only issue I have had with this car. See my previous posts.
cs....as you say, the grade logic trans eventually "maps" itself, either to the driver, or the driving parameters (say, mostly highway, for example)...perhaps both.
Again, not an expert, but I believe the cylinder activation/deactivation depends on speed and load. I know if I'm going uphill, regardless of speed, there is no cylinder deactivation (according to the gauge in the display). Conversely, there are times when I'm traveling at 65 MPH and cylinders deactivate.
My time behind the wheel of both a V6 and I4 Accord has been limited to maybe 100 miles (during test drives). In both, I noted that the transmission was quick to "kick down" a gear when pushed. I like that. I also noted that the transmission in both would sometimes hold a lower gear when traveling down hill, for compression braking. I like that, too.
Maybe that's what people aren't used to.....the transmission holding a gear longer than they're used to (with higher RPMs). Maybe that's part of the surging I'm hearing about.
Aside from looking at the dash and seeing the "ECO" light come on, I didn't notice any surging, or "jolt" when the cylinders activated and deactivated.
Still, I'd have a tech reset the ECU and/or the grade logic to whatever is the "default" map and see if that solved the issue.
As a side note, awhile ago, an elderly neighbor wanted to trade in his Lincoln Town Car (why, I don't know....his Town Car is 8 years old and looks brand new with ~20,000 miles on it). Still, he wanted one of those "smaller Lincolns". So, he traded for an MKZ.
About a couple months ago, we were outside chatting. I asked him how he liked his MKZ. He'd only had it about a week. He said he hated it. Of course, I asked why. He described it doing similar behaviors as I'm hearing in a few of these posts. I originally thought his dissatisfaction was because he went from a big, heavy, V8 Town Car to a much smaller, lighter Lincoln with a V6. I mentioned those facts to him, but he insisted something was wrong with the car. He took me for a ride, and sure enough...it surged, felt like it was holding a lower gear, etc.
Saw him again last weekend and asked him if he was still having trouble with his car. He said he took it in for service and they did exactly what I've proposed here. They reset the logic of the transmission. No more problem.
I do think there's a bit of regret on his part about buying it. Although I think it rides very smooth, he says the ride is harsh (I guess it would compared to a Town Car). He was also used to the V8 "loafing" at low RPMs and the numb steering of his old Town Car. That's what he got used to. That's what he liked. Personally, I've driven his MKZ. It's not my cup of tea as it's still too "Lincolnish" for my tastes.
I think there are some who got used to the "old Accord". Whenever there's a substantial re-design, there will be some grumbling about liking the old over the new. Just like my neighbor liking the "old" Town Car over the new MKZ. I think the MKZ is a better car than the Town Car. You'll never convince him of that, though.
"Maybe that's part of the surging I'm hearing about"
What I do not understand is posts like this which question the experiences of VCM owners here who have had issues. If you haven't experienced it please do not conjecture. This is like a doctor trying to make a diagnosis over the phone without even seeing the patient. Apparently the cars you have test driven did not present the symptoms many here have experienced. It does not mean they don't exist, are in their minds or they don't know their own cars as well as you do. Really - that is insulting and offensive. What is it that possesses people to do this? Is it arrrogance? Is it "know it allness"?
I can assure you that after 40+ years of driving experiences, including all kinds of cars, engines front and rear, transmission combinations, on the street and on the track, that I had never previously experienced what my car exhibited - a "surging" sensation (actually shfiting among the various cylinder combinations) that had absolutely nothing to do with the transmission. It did it at 65-70 in top gear while on cruise control, often enough and noticeably enough to make my wife ill. It had absolutely nothing to do with the transmission "holding a gear a little longer." And absolutely nothing to do with it being a "different car" than what I had had, as you imply from your Lincon Town car vs. MKZ story.
In my case - it cleared itself up. Why I do not know - and the very fact that those with problems have NEVER had any Honda service department come up with a resolution to their issues means that the source of the problems experienced remains a mystery, the only solution to which being, as some have done or plan to do, sell the car and never buy another Honda again. A shame to treat a loyal 17 year owner that way, as mentioned by a previous poster. Goes to show you what loyalty will get you.
Comments
Sorry to jump in like this regarding the VCM. Honda always seems to want to be so far out on the leading edge of technology that they manage to mess it up. My past experience with Honda generators, lawn equipment, cars, and motorcycles is that they always manage to screw it up on the first or second iteration.
Also Honda can do no wrong. They usually never admit that there is a problem. BMW motorcycles and Porsche have the same attitude, however they usually will fix a warranty or defect problem no matter what their cost but never admit to there being a problem.
How can Chevy get it right? I had an almost brand new Hertz 2008 Impala in April with the high output V6 and their version of VCM. I drove from Phoenix to Flagstaff then through Las Vegas to St. George, UT to Salt Lake City. I drove over 1600 miles. I could see on the Info display the engine in either 3 or 6 cylinder modes. I drove at speeds from 30 MPH to 80+ MPH, up and down mountain passes, some over 8000 feet with and without the cruise control.
If I hadn't had the Info display set to show the VCM operating, I would not have known the engine had it. I noticed that at 65 MPH on a level stretch of Route 93 from Kingman to LV back down at a reasonable altitude that the car was getting 35 MPG. At 80 MPH or going up and down mountains it was always in 6 cylinder mode. What I didn't see was the constant switching back and forth between 3 and 6 cylinders.
Are you sure you don't mean the 5.3L V6 used in the Impala SS? If you are, its my feeling that any comparison between the GM and Honda cylinder management is a bit unfair. The V8 has a bit more torque, and the cylinder management really doesn't seem to add any more mileage gain than Honda's V6 VCM does......
Please help
Maybe the smaller size will work better with the harmonics of the VCM, Steering Rack and other suspension components.
I thought it was my tires,but they have been rebalanced several times.
Roy 21
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
1919 Torrance Boulevard
Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7D
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
Re: 2008 Honda Accord EXL V6/VCM
1HGCP36878A021***
Dear American Honda:
I have owned over a dozen Honda and Acura cars since our first 1981 Accord 4 door sedan, and out over 400,000 miles on them.
In addition our son bought and drives a 2007 Accord V6 because of our experiences and his own with the 1990 Legend V6 we had bought for him. In all the years of ownership I have NEVER had the occasion to complain about the cars – they have consistently been GREAT, reliable, economical performers that have safely transported our family almost 400,000 miles without injury, breakdown, serious mechanical failure despite one accident in which the ’88 Legend was totaled and my wife and kids unhurt. I have previously written letters to Acura extolling the virtues of its cars.
It saddens me that after all these years of devotion and loyalty, I would buy the ’08 Accord EXL V6, promised that the VCM was “completely seamless and unnoticeable” only to find that it is absolutely NOT – it constantly “surges” at highway speeds, even on cruise, to the extent that it makes my wife ill. Coupled with the “grade logic” transmission, at 65 on cruise control when going downhill, the car downshifted with such ferocity that my wife and I in the front, and my son and his wife in the rear seat, were thrown violently into our shoulder harnesses while the “grade logic” coupled with the cruise control, attempted to maintain a ‘steady” speed. This drive train is unlike any other Honda I have ever driven – and will be my last unless something is done to address this problem. It is the most herky, jerky uncivilized drive train I have ever experienced in a car - and I have owned many other brands, engine types, transmissions, etc.
I know I am not alone in my assessment. There is a whole forum about the Accord VCM at golfrski, "2008 Honda Accord VCM" #1, 1 Nov 2007 7:42 pm
Let me quote Honda’s website on the operation of the VCM:
“The transition between the three operating modes is completely seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers.”
Really?? Aside from the many posts on car space, allow me to quote some road tests:
January25, 2008 Wall Street Journal reviewer:
"... the Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior. That the Accord managed only 22 miles per gallon during my testing ... only made this all the more annoJanuary25, 2008 Wall Street Journal reviewer:
AutoWeek 8/21/07
“When driving the multi-cylinder deactivation V6, we did detect a hybrid-like torque on/torque off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 mph when under slight throttle(at about 2000 to 2500 RPM). Because the green “ECO” indicator was illuminated, showing that the engine was running in fuel saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four and three cylinder modes.”
USA Today 8/24/07
“If you step up too the V6 model, you’ll get blazing engine performance but rougher down shifting than in the 4 cylinder cars. Also a sensitive driver can feel the V6 go through its multi cylinder transitions.”
Motor Trend October 2007
This article was all speculation. When the car was actually comparison tested against the Camry, Malibu and Sentra it came in third place.
http://www.epinions.com/content_403535007364
Noise cancellation technology eliminates the odd noises produced by a V6 running on three or four cylinders. The transitions cannot be heard or felt--to know which mode the engine is in, it's generally necessary to rely on the "ECO" light.
That said, early in my test drive of the V6 I did notice a low frequency thrumming when cruising around 60 miles per hour. And the sunroof was closed. At first I wondered if this might be a by-product of the noise cancellation. But the noise eventually faded away, so I now suspect the tires. If the noise was endemic to the design, many people would find it too irritating to live with.
http://www.web2carz.com/6596/2008/Honda/Accord/reviews/driving-performance
Like GM and Chrysler systems designed to save gas on big V8s, VCM changes the number of engine cylinders working at any given time and load to save fuel. The previous example switched off three cylinders (half the V6) when they weren't needed, but this new one changes between six, four, and three cylinders for more fuel-stretching choices. The system is completely automatic and unknown to the driver except for two things: The Eco light illuminates on the dash when the system is on, and there's a slight hunting sensation as it switches back-and-forth between four and three cylinders at certain speeds, but you'll need to be paying attention to notice that.
CONCLUSION
I have LOVED all our Hondas. But, this is one HONDA I will hate until the day I get rid of it, and unless Honda does something for me and all the others who feel we were duped by false advertising, will make it my crusade to see that this fraud is outed and Honda pays for it. Copies of this letter are going to the FTC and the New York State Attorney General’s office. A complaint has been filed with the NHTSA. I will post on every message board I can find - I feel it only fair to let others not only know my past loyalty to Honda, but also know what it got me - a surging, bucking, grade logic downshifting, car with "maddening behavior". I will
April 2, 2008
Federal Trade Commission
Consumer Response Center
Division of Advertising Practices
600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20580
Re: 2008 Honda Accord EXL V6/VCM
1HGCP36878A021***
Dear Sirs:
I am writing about the above vehicle purchased 12/28/2007 from Lia Honda, Albany, NY., and AMERICAN HONDA’S FALSE ADVERTISING CLAIMS.
This car is equipped with Honda’s Variable Cylinder Management V6 engine.
American Honda advertises this engine and technology in its website as follows (emphasis added in pertinent parts)
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/features.aspx?Feature=vcme
“The Accord Sedan’s V-6 features the latest generation of Variable Cylinder Management™ (VCM®) technology. This system can activate and deactivate the engine’s cylinders as needed to meet the demands of both acceleration and fuel savings. When maximum torque is required, all six cylinders are firing. During steady cruising speeds , VCM shuts down one bank of cylinders. In this mode, the audio system’s Active Noise Cancellation™ (ANC) function generates out-of-phase sound waves to cancel out any undesirable noise that may be due to the harmonics of 3-cylinder operation. As cruising speed increases the engine moves to a 4-cylinder mode for extra cruising power. To help keep engine vibration from reaching the cabin in every mode, active engine mounts automatically adjust their firmness to help absorb energy. The transition between the three operating modes is completely seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers.”
This advertising is an absolute bald faced lie supported by numerous professional road test opinions:
Wall Street Journal 1/25/08
"... the Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior. That the Accord managed only 22 miles per gallon during my testing ... only made this all the more annoying
AutoWeek 8/21/07
“When driving the multi-cylinder deactivation V6, we did detect a hybrid-like torque on/torque off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 mph when under slight throttle(at about 2000 to 2500 RPM). Because the green “ECO” indicator was illuminated, showing that the engine was running in fuel saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four and three cylinder modes.”
USA Today 8/24/07
“If you step up too the V6 model, you’ll get blazing engine performance but rougher down shifting than in the 4 cylinder cars. Also a sensitive driver can feel the V6 go through its multi cylinder transitions.”
Motor Trend October 2007
This article was all speculation. When the car was actually comparison tested against the Camry, Malibu and Sentra it came in third place.
http://www.epinions.com/content_403535007364
Noise cancellation technology eliminates the odd noises produced by a V6 running on three or four cylinders. The transitions cannot be heard or felt--to know which mode the engine is in, it's generally necessary to rely on the "ECO" light.
That said, early in my test drive of the V6 I did notice a low frequency thrumming when cruising around 60 miles per hour. And the sunroof was closed. At first I wondered if this might be a by-product of the noise cancellation. But the noise eventually faded away, so I now suspect the tires. If the noise was endemic to the design, many people would find it too irritating to live with.
http://www.web2carz.com/6596/2008/Honda/Accord/reviews/driving-performance
Like GM and Chrysler systems designed to save gas on big V8s, VCM changes the number of engine cylinders working at any given time and load to save fuel. The previous example switched off three cylinders (half the V6) when they weren't needed, but this new one changes between six, four, and three cylinders for more fuel-stretching choices. The system is completely automatic and unknown to the driver except for two things: The Eco light illuminates on the dash when the system is on, and there's a slight hunting sensation as it switches back-and-forth between four and three cylinders at certain speeds, but you'll need to be paying attention to notice that.
I have no axe to grind with Honda. I have owned numerous Honda and Acrua products since 1981.
I have LOVED all our Hondas. But, this drive train is unlike any other Honda I have ever driven, and I will hate it until the day I get rid of it, and will crusade against Honda unless it does something for me and all the others who were duped by false advertising. I bought the’08 Accord EXL V6 being promised that the VCM was “completely seamless and unnoticeable” only to find that it is absolutely NOT –it is a surging, bucking, grade logic downshifting, car with "maddening behavior" that constantly “surges” at highway speeds, even on cruise, to the extent that it makes my wife ill. Coupled with the “grade logic” transmission, at 65 on cruise control when going downhill, the car downshifted with such ferocity that my wife and I in the front, and my son and his wife in the rear seat, were thrown violently into our shoulder harnesses while the “grade logic” coupled with the cruise control, attempted to maintain a ‘steady” speed.
I know I am not alone in my assessment. There is a whole forum about the Accord VCM at golfrski, "2008 Honda Accord VCM" #1, 1 Nov 2007 7:42 pm
PLEASE – HELP us come up with a fix for this from Honda!!! They deny any problem exists; dealers say the cars are operating within “normal operating limits”. A replacement chip, an on /off switch, SOMETHING!!! It may require some sort of class action against Honda. A copy of my letter to Honda is enclosed.
I wish you luck with your car - mine "cured" itself - the vibration and "surging" went away and I am happy to say I like the car now. Doesn't change what it WAS at first.
Roy 21
Roy 21
Nothing worse than a car in the shop all the time or a miserable vehicle to simply drive. I can empathize - mine was horrible until it just cured itself. I have no idea what was wrong but whatever it was it is gone. My son drove it this weekend and could not believe the difference, having driven it before - I hope you can reach some sort of satisfactory resolution, or if I were you I would never buy Honda again. It just isn't right to treat a loyal faithful customer that way.
Just as I expected. We are stuck with it. Unless we get lucky and they come out with a fix later or it corrects its self.
Roy 21
Did you ever hear back from the attorney general, the FTC, etc.?
Did you write back to Honda or the other parties to let them know that your car managed to fix itself and that you now like the car, to set the record straight?
We are now almost a year into this topic, and there is still no answer as far as what is going on with a small number of VCM-equipped Accords. References made by some people regarding software flashes and electrical fixes originally sounded promising, but appear to be dead ends? Is anybody out there with any new, useful information for current and prospective Accord owners?
the fact that some posters have stated in cliff note format that techs have stated there is a fix seems suspicious to me. Clearly if I found fix, you folks would get the King James version.
Did your grade logic issue also correct itself along with your VCM, or are you still being thrown violently into your shoulder harness when the car is cruising at speed?
Accord VCM gas mileage is no big deal - get this about the 361 HP Pontiac G8 -
"There is some good news on that front. Like many of GM’s V-8 engines, the one in the G8 has "active fuel management," which shuts four of the cylinders when you don’t need so much power. It also has a very tall overdrive sixth gear that lets you roll down the highway at 65 mph while the engine spins at a lazy 1,600 rpm.
With the cruise control set at 75 mph, the G8 returned 26 mpg, not bad, but at 60 mph it jumped to 32 mpg. "
Now THAT is impressive.
I saw one review that stated in town driving yielded 16 MPG, too....on the required premium fuel.
The pushrod V8 is rated 15/24 with 361 HP, while the DOHC V6 is rated 17/25 with 256 HP. Not that big a spread between the two motors in terms of gas mileage, probably thanks to the cylinder deactivation and 6 speeds on the V8.
I don't think the car is ugly. It looks a little dated, but to my eyes this car has cleaner and better exterior styling than the Accord. The G8 is also a step up over the tragically discontinued GTO (both Holdens imported from Australia).
Regarding Honda VCM, these boards have been awfully quiet. I was at my Honda dealer a couple days ago having my Ody serviced, and I asked if there were any issues or news about VCM. They report no major complaints or problems. For whatever that is worth.
Anyway, we drove both the V6 and the I4. V6 was very nice. Test drove it first.....in town, highway, twisties. No surges (not on the highway, not in town). Matter of fact, I'd say the VCM WAS imperceptible on the one we drove (coupe, automatic with 9 miles on the odo).
My friend ended up with an I4 (which is also very nice). She's got about 1,200 miles on it now. Very pleased....getting 26-29 MPG depending on her driving mix. She hasn't gone through a tank of all highway driving yet. But, I'd bet she exceeds the 31 MPG the sticker states.
I'm not a mechanic, but aren't the auto tranny's in these cars "adaptable"? Over time, don't they adjust to a driver's style of driving?
Perhaps that's the issue here. The ECU and tranny "map" has been somehow tripped up to cause this.
Anyone who's having an issue, I'd ask the Honda service dept to "flash" the logic control so it resets.
While a much different vehicle, I've got a Tahoe which also utilizes cylinder deactivation. When new, it showed some of the same symptoms I've heard others talk about here. After about 4,000 miles, it smoothed right out (got 30,000 on it now). Now, I can't tell when it shifts in and out of cylinder deactivation mode.
Couple that with the engine moving in and out of cylinder deactivation/activation mode, I can see where there may be an instance where a vehicle is shifting from a few cylinders firing, to all cylinders firing, at the same time the trans is shifting into a lower gear. That would provide the "jolt" I hear some people talking about here.
In my Tahoe, that happened a few times when it was new. But, once the "maps" were were set over a period of time (as it chose which program map to use for my style of driving), that smoothed right out to the point I don't feel any shift in activation or deactivation of cylinders.
I'd bet that's what some people are feeling in their VCM Accords. If you take it to the dealer, and let them flash the ECU that controls the VCM and the auto transmission to it's default, and let it "re-learn", it would probably go away.
Just a guess on a theory, however.
It's possible that VCM can fix itself through engine mounts sealing, drivelines breaking in, or intelligent transmissions "adjusting" to the behavior of the driver. But, there is also the possibility that some who complain about VCM have simply not adjusted their driving style to match the dynamics of this car.
My Honda dealer has consistently told me that although they don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with VCM, they do acknowledge that this Accord is very different from prior Accords. Honda owners who bought this car expecting it to be more of the same may have been shocked that this car is much larger, has different driving dynamics, and looks/feels different. Car and Driver magazine, which has had a lovefest with Honda for many years, acknowledges that this current Accord is more of an "appliance"...more Camry-like than ever before. The current Accord is arguably less of a driver's car. It is easily the most complicated Accord ever. And VCM contributes to that complexity.
Just as grade logic adjusts to the driver, perhaps it takes time for VCM to adjust to the driver? Or it takes time for the driver adjust to VCM? Or is it a little of both?
Again, not an expert, but I believe the cylinder activation/deactivation depends on speed and load. I know if I'm going uphill, regardless of speed, there is no cylinder deactivation (according to the gauge in the display). Conversely, there are times when I'm traveling at 65 MPH and cylinders deactivate.
My time behind the wheel of both a V6 and I4 Accord has been limited to maybe 100 miles (during test drives). In both, I noted that the transmission was quick to "kick down" a gear when pushed. I like that. I also noted that the transmission in both would sometimes hold a lower gear when traveling down hill, for compression braking. I like that, too.
Maybe that's what people aren't used to.....the transmission holding a gear longer than they're used to (with higher RPMs). Maybe that's part of the surging I'm hearing about.
Aside from looking at the dash and seeing the "ECO" light come on, I didn't notice any surging, or "jolt" when the cylinders activated and deactivated.
Still, I'd have a tech reset the ECU and/or the grade logic to whatever is the "default" map and see if that solved the issue.
As a side note, awhile ago, an elderly neighbor wanted to trade in his Lincoln Town Car (why, I don't know....his Town Car is 8 years old and looks brand new with ~20,000 miles on it). Still, he wanted one of those "smaller Lincolns". So, he traded for an MKZ.
About a couple months ago, we were outside chatting. I asked him how he liked his MKZ. He'd only had it about a week. He said he hated it. Of course, I asked why. He described it doing similar behaviors as I'm hearing in a few of these posts. I originally thought his dissatisfaction was because he went from a big, heavy, V8 Town Car to a much smaller, lighter Lincoln with a V6. I mentioned those facts to him, but he insisted something was wrong with the car. He took me for a ride, and sure enough...it surged, felt like it was holding a lower gear, etc.
Saw him again last weekend and asked him if he was still having trouble with his car. He said he took it in for service and they did exactly what I've proposed here. They reset the logic of the transmission. No more problem.
I do think there's a bit of regret on his part about buying it. Although I think it rides very smooth, he says the ride is harsh (I guess it would compared to a Town Car). He was also used to the V8 "loafing" at low RPMs and the numb steering of his old Town Car. That's what he got used to. That's what he liked. Personally, I've driven his MKZ. It's not my cup of tea as it's still too "Lincolnish" for my tastes.
I think there are some who got used to the "old Accord". Whenever there's a substantial re-design, there will be some grumbling about liking the old over the new. Just like my neighbor liking the "old" Town Car over the new MKZ. I think the MKZ is a better car than the Town Car. You'll never convince him of that, though.
What I do not understand is posts like this which question the experiences of VCM owners here who have had issues. If you haven't experienced it please do not conjecture. This is like a doctor trying to make a diagnosis over the phone without even seeing the patient. Apparently the cars you have test driven did not present the symptoms many here have experienced. It does not mean they don't exist, are in their minds or they don't know their own cars as well as you do. Really - that is insulting and offensive. What is it that possesses people to do this?
Is it arrrogance? Is it "know it allness"?
I can assure you that after 40+ years of driving experiences, including all kinds of cars, engines front and rear, transmission combinations, on the street and on the track, that I had never previously experienced what my car exhibited - a "surging" sensation (actually shfiting among the various cylinder combinations) that had absolutely nothing to do with the transmission. It did it at 65-70 in top gear while on cruise control, often enough and noticeably enough to make my wife ill. It had absolutely nothing to do with the transmission "holding a gear a little longer." And absolutely nothing to do with it being a "different car" than what I had had, as you imply from your Lincon Town car vs. MKZ story.
In my case - it cleared itself up. Why I do not know - and the very fact that those with problems have NEVER had any Honda service department come up with a resolution to their issues means that the source of the problems experienced remains a mystery, the only solution to which being, as some have done or plan to do, sell the car and never buy another Honda again. A shame to treat a loyal 17 year owner that way, as mentioned by a previous poster. Goes to show you what loyalty will get you.