$10,000 will buy?

Mr_Shiftright

1. Porsche 928 (Mid Eighties)

Comment: Fast, comfortable and well-built, bargain-priced. Downside: massively expensive and complicated to repair. You could fall into financial hell if you picked the wrong car. Interesting car, but be very very careful.

2. BMW 325 Convertible (Late eighties, early
ninetys)
Comment: Harmless enough. Not very exciting, but reliable top-down experience and a good driver. A sensible fun car.

3. Mercedes 420SEL or 300E (Mid to late eighties)

Comment: Why age yourself prematurely? Big heavy tank of a car. Impressive but very boring.


4. 300ZX 2+2(1990 or 1991)

comment: Nice cars, very modern, attractive and delivers excellent performance. But of course it is Japanese and will feel like it inside. Still, worth a drive. A lot of car for the money.

5. Eldorado Convertible (Mid eighties)

Comment: You were kidding on this one, right?

ksm1

For the most part I agree with your thoughts. However, I would not consider a 300E to be a "big heavy tank of a car." The 420SEL yes its a tank, but comfortable and generally long lived.

I have owned many Japanese cars over the years (including a 240Z and a 280ZX), and I agree that there is still a certain lack of substance about Japanese cars compared with the European cars.

As for the Eldorado, I can't explain it but there has always been a special place in my heart for American boats. I remember attending an auto show the year that G.M. reintroduced the Cadillac and Buick convertibles. My frinds could not believe that I thought that these cars had an unusual "coolness" about them. You do not see many of them around anymore, and the ones I see seem to be in great shape...(I know, well cared for by their old man owners who are ready to die).

Any other cars that could make the list? I saw a Reatta? convertible on my way home yesterday that was a looker...

Mr_Shiftright

That's the problem with the Reatta...it is just a "looker", not a "do-er". I think these "boats" are kinda fun until you drive them for a day, then everything changes. Also, the 1980s was a long point in American car quality, so you have to consider that as well.

I like Benzes (used to work for them) but for me personally they are quite boring, heavy feeling and insular. Sometimes I like a car to feel that way, but usually not.

speedshift

Your comments about the Mercedes go with something someone at my office said about them. He had a E430 Sport that I rode in several times, and it seemed like a great car--smooth, powerful, quiet, solid. Then one day he drives up in a new 540 wagon and asks if I want to buy the Mercedes (only in my dreams or with EZ payments). He said the BMW felt much more lively than the Mercedes. That surprised me--I always thought the best Euro cars had great feedback--but he owns a Boxster too, so he's got credentials.

Mr_Shiftright

Actually, in terms of "real" feedback, most modern cars are rather numb compared to some of the older European cars...this is due to sound insulation, power steering, brakes, big fat tires, etc. But most modern drivers wouldn't really tolerate that level of feedback. An insular experience seems more desirable these days, perhaps because driving has become a less pleasant experience. Drivers today don't really want to "let the world in", and that includes engine noises, the wind, and all the bumps and grooves in the road.

dgraves1

You mentioned comfort, style (you might want explain your meaning on this criterion) and reliability. Have you considered the following, which I think would all be in the $10K range? (in no particular order)
1.Infinity Q45 (early 90s)
2.Lexus LS400 (early 90s)
3.Lexus SC400 (early 90s)

ksm1

Thanks for your thoughts. All have crossed my mind. I have not read or heard many positive things about the early Q45's durability. I have mixed thoughts about the Lexus'. While I have liked the LS400s that I have been in and can appreciate their level of quality and refinement I find some "intangible feeling" lacking. This could come from my bias against Toyota products(I have disliked each of them I have owned). However, I will make it a point to spend some time with a LS400 as everyone I know who owns one is happy with it. I think that SC400s are selling for more than $10,000.

dgraves1

You're probably right, the SCs will probably be $12-13K but I wasn't sure how flexible you were.

ksm1

I think that that Speedshift and Mr. Shiftright are correct about the difference. In 1999 when I was looking for a new 4 door, I thought I would get an E320. My father has had a few Mercedes over the years, and currently has two. He has always been happy with them and I have always liked driving them. Because I like cars, buying one gives me the excuse to look at everything even when I think I know what I want. The minute I drove the BMW 528i I knew it was the car for me. The BMWs are much more responsive and feel "younger" than the Mercedes products.

While I will not keep this car long (three years) I think that the Mercedes will look more stylish over a longer period of time. Style wise, I think that most BMW sedans only look stylish while they are current. I look back at the 80's 5 or 7 series now and think that they are borderline ugly. While the S class and to a lesser extent the E class still look good.

dgraves1

I agree on the mid-eighties 5 series but I think the late eighties/early nineties 5-series is better looking than the more recent versions. Unfortunately, I think BMW's reliability is somewhat marginal until more like the mid-nineties.

Mr_Shiftright

I think if we are going to talk about cars like Lexus and Infiniti, we should move over to the > or > conference. I'd like to keep the discussion here to Classics or potentially Collectible cars. Thanks!

shiftright the host

andre1969

I know the Caddy Eldorado from that era was famous for meltdown of its aluminum engine, but what about an Olds Toronado or Buick Riviera convert from the same era? The Olds 307 used in both cars was pretty solid, but I don't know about the rest of the car. I guess the fwd mechanicals would probably be a weak link.
-Andre

ksm1

Mr. Shiftright brings up an interesting point about not letting the world in. One of my cars is a 76 Corvette - very, very far from an insular experience. I enjoy this car for about the first 10 to 20 miles that I drive it. Then the noises, vibrations, heat etc. become more work than they are worth. Cars have come a long way since this was designed. I think I keep this car because every time I see it I love "the look" of the car. Unfortunately, I find that it sits more than I would like it to because it is less and less fitting into when and where I drive. Nine out of ten times I choose the 528i.

I guess, my like of convertibles is an attempt to balance the "world" vs. being shut out. As we look at what may become "classic" or "collected" in the future, I think that the more insular will win out over the worldly.

Any thoughts about RX7 convertibles, The later 5.0 Mustang convertibles?

isellhondas

But I really believe an RX-7 convertable would be a good investment. They look great, cause few problems and are a blast to drive.

Too bad Mazda had to overpower and overprice the wonderful RX-7's before Ford came in and killed them!

Mr_Shiftright

I think the RX7 and 5.0 Mustangs will always have buyers but I don't see them ever bringing big prices...in the case of the Mazda, not too many really care about them, and in the case of the Mustang, there are gazillions on the road, so they are hardly distinctive enough for collectibility. But any "sporty" ragtop will find buyers.. they won't necessary bid to the roof. For real collectibility you need the magic formula of many more willing buyers than there are cars available.

ksm1

I think that most will agree that autos in the pure sense of "investment" when compared with other traditional investments such as stocks will not fair as well. I do not think that it is economics that drive broad based auto collectibility. It is a love for a particular auto. That love can be for various reasons that are individual to each of us. However, if enough of us have the same experience, feelings, or stimulus as to an auto then we will be more likely to make an auto "collectible" in a popular sense.

I guess I am not a purest, but easily finding buyers for an "old car" that is probably inferior to a new car is okay with me. Having other people around to communicate with and share common experiences with is enjoyable and adds to my life. The number of people that I can share Corvette stories with is far greater than those with whom I can share Duesenburg stories. (I actually have no Duesenburg stories, but you get my point...I hope)

Yes, the economics of supply and demand apply to autos. However, a large demand can accommodate a large supply. With autos, for the most part, having been produced in ever growing large numbers across the board for many years now, people will "connect with" memory cars that are very likely not rare.

I guess, I can relate better to the 57 Chevy, 65 Mustang, (insert other common car here) that everyday people like and enjoy and therefore keep around long past their obsolescence.

My $.02. In my quest, a pure collectibility is not my main goal. Some vehicles have a presence, be it sporty or stately that will transcend time thus making the vehicle popular into the future. My original list contained a Porsche 928 (sporty) and Mercedes 420 SEL (stately).

Mr_Shiftright

Some cars are made popular by movies and advertising rather than merit, which is another factor in collecting. that boosts demand (to a point)--e.g., Deloreans and old VW bugs. I can't imagine a 1990s Prelude (a perfectly fine car) ever being burned into the public consciousness however. There has to be some kind of dinstinctiveness, I think, even for 'ordinary', non big bucks popularity to occur.

ksm1

Mr. Shiftright, I will agree. What that distinctiveness is is the key. Sitting here in the year 2000, I agree that it is unlikely that a 1990s Prelude will "speak" for a generation in the future. However (I am showing my age here) what was a mid to late 50s Chevy saying in the mid 60s? Where they collected or were they just another 10 year old used car? What I am trying to say is that every decade produces something that will be desired in the future, it just takes time to see what that will become.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, but....really, the cars that are "hot" today were "hot" the day they came out...it seems an almost indisputable rule. And the cars that either laid an egg or went unnoticed aren't actively collected today. Oh, some people may in fact love them and restore them, but it's hardly a nationwide movement to save every Delorean or Avanti made, and certainly even a 50s 4-door Chevy often goes begging for a buyer if the price goes much over $5,000. But people would drag a real Hemi Cuda from the bottom of a lake to save it!

But it's true what you say...I could never have dreamed I'd see a 1957 Chevrolet convertible sell for $75,000!

carnut4

were hot from the beginning. When the 57 Chev came out, I [as a 9 year old] thought they were special right from the start. And in the 60's, when I was looking for my first car, 55-57 Chevs were my first choice, and the first choice of most guys my age. There were, and are, lots of good reasons for this. $75,000? Well, no, but then I never thought it would cost $25,000 to buy an ugly, cheaply built, economy car from Japan either. Most new cars have a definite "throw away" quality-unlike the Chevs and some other old cars. Sorry-off topic. Hey 10,000 bucks could buy a nice 89-94 Nissan Maxima-one of the few Nissans I've ever liked.

dgraves1

Anybody wants to give me 10 grand for my '90 Maxima SE please contact me right away. I wasn't planning to sell it, but if I was, I think I'd be lucky to get half of that. I guess maybe a '94 might approach $10K.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the topic was really driving at finding interesting cars for $10K or less. For every practical Camry, a car enthusiast needs a "toy car" to play with.

Trying to predict "collectibility" is kind of a madness, because there are people who buy what they think will be a collectible and lock it up and not use it. In most cases, this turns out to have been a bad idea. By the time you buy, store, insure and protect say a 2000 WS-6 Firebird in the hope that someone will pay big money for it in 20 years, it seems hardly worth all that effort. I'm a big fan of buying a "collectible car" and using it up, like god intended. Maybe if it were a one-off, LeMans winning Ferrari super racer, I'd attempt to preserve it for history, but a 57 Chevy? Nah, go drive it and let yourself and everyone else enjoy it on the road.

Let's see, if $10K were burning a hole in my pocket right now (I have the burning hole but not the $10K) I'd probably shop for...what?...hmmmm....

55 Buick two door hardtop
70s Alfa GTV coupe
Old Lambretta or Vespa motor scooter


Shifty

speedshift

How about a wheel off a '55 Buick? Seriously. I have one I'll deliver, free. It even has the tabs that secure the hubcap. This way you can say you built your Buick from the ground up.

isellhondas

Yes, I had one of those too. Bought it from a neighbor who was moving for something like 300.00. Kept it a couple of years and sold it to someone else for 300.00. Now, I hear they are worth money? I remember it was a 150 cc. Early seventies model.

Then there was the Cushman Eagle that I gave away...Really!

Anybody besides Shifty remember the Cushmans?

speedshift

Was that the three wheeler the Post Office used to use? I knew a guy who tipped one and was seriously burned. Sounds like fun.

isellhondas

I've seen the three wheel meter maid Cushmans. Is Cushman still in business?

I was talking about the two wheeled models. These were real popular I guess in the 40's and 50's. If yopu type Cushman into a search engine several sites will pop up so you can see what they look like. The Eagles had a two speed shifter on the side of the gas tank with a centrifical clutch.

But then...Honda came out with the nifty Honda 50's in the early sixties. They looked like a small motorcycle, ran better, were faster and cheaper. This was the beginning of the end for Cushman.

Mr_Shiftright

I kind of remember Cushmans but they were over the hill even when I was a kid.

Yeah, the little Vespas (old ones) are worth "money" if $2,000 is actually money anymore these days.Of course, that would have to be one helluva beautiful little Vespa...like out of the box.

speedshift

Found some photos of a restored Cushman scooter, red, on the web. Sharp, especially from the rear. There's also a site for Cushman golf carts and small commercial vehicles, so they may still be in business.

Mr_Shiftright

To my eye, when you put them next to the Italian scooters of the day (taken from aircraft design), they look pretty clunky. Obviously, the public thought so too, as they disappeared quickly when the competition heated up. Still, they are unique today and so might appeal to those who like the eccentric things in life.

isellhondas

This is bizarre! There is an ad in today's Seattle Times for a 1965 Vespa Scooter. Asking 3000.00!

It's actually an Allstate! Sears used to sell Vespas under their own name.

They also sold Allstate cars for a couple of years during the fifties!

They were Henry J's. Imagine that!

Mr_Shiftright

Another astounding example of sychronicity! We have to be careful what we talk about around here.

isellhondas

Some lurker probably read these postings and decided to dust off the old Vespa and advertise it for 3000.00!

Hope they appreciate all of this fine information!

carnut4

will insure a Vespa for that much? Back in the 60's, they wouldn't take my 55Chev because it had chrome wheels. My Dad then cancelled Allstate. I remember those old Cushmans. Used to see a lot of them around the LA area in the early fifties. I later drove one of the post office jobs when I worked as a mail carrier in 1967. One of them was always breaking down, leaving a carrier stranded-and they weren't that economical either-because you basically drove them floored and flat out all the time just to get anywhere. Now, they use them around here for garbage pickup. Unmistakeable sound...

ksm1

Carnut4 thanks for your response about the 50s Chevys. In many ways, you are helping Shiftright and myself with our arguments. As I said, I am younger than you so I have no memory connection with those cars. One of my points about what will make an "old car" desirable in the future is memory. Shiftright also adds to the formula that some cars are special from the beginning.

Anyway, the scooter talk is interesting, but does not help me spend $10K or less for a third or fourth car to enjoy. One requirement is that I will drive this car at least once a week in my normal 40 mile each way So Cal freeway commute. A scooter will not work.

isellhondas

As I understand it, the larger 200 cc Vespas are freeway legal! It would take a brave soul to venture onto a So. Cal freeway in one of these.

You'll have to find something you like that is practical enough to use as a daily driver.

When you narrow your choices us "experts" here will be happy to let you know what we think of them.

Caution...our opinions will vary!

Good luck!

carnut4

and maybe you know this-avoid any Jaguar for less than 10G, and I think I'd stay away from old Benzs in that range too.

andy_jordan

I'm sensitive you know!!

More seriously, whilst I am not as familiar with US pricing as I am with that here in Canada, are there not some 92 / 93 V6 Jags in that price range yet. By that time the cars were becoming a lot more reliable than a few years earlier.

Failing that you can buy my XJ-S for $10001 :-)

ksm1

Like Don Quixote I am on a quest! The goal is to spend $10K (or less) for what will be a third or fourth car. My basic requirements are that the car have some style, some comfort and reasonable reliability. My initial list included the following in no order:
Porsche 928 (mid to late 80s), BMW 325 Convertible (late 80s early 90s), Mercedes 420SEL or 300E (mid 80s early 90s); 300zx 2+2 (early 90s); Eldorado Convertible (mid 80s).

Some have suggested looking at the Lexus LS400 (90 or 91)

I currently have a 2000 Expedition, 1999 BMW 528i, and a 1976 Corvette. (The Corvette is on the bubble, it may stay or it may go).

Regarding Jaguars - I always look at the ads and am tempted. I usually end up looking at one or two then all of the storys I've been told come to mind. However, I have always liked the 12 cyl XJ-S.

andy_jordan

It is a great car, but it does have its nuances (see the topic in this forum), and it will cost money to maintain.

I was only half joking too about the car being available - I am moving to the back of beyond pretty soon and the car has got to go - contact me off list if you are interested - this isn't the place to try and sell it.

isellhondas

The 928 could/probably would be a financial nightmare. Be prepared for the worst. Same applies to the 420/300e idea.

The 325i convertable is probably the best chioce overall. Fun but not too much of a PITA to keep on the road.

300zx...Not bad, but these have usually had a pretty rough life.

The Cadillac...Really??!! The mid-80's Cadillacs had the lousy 4100 engines in them among other things.

How about an interesting domestic besides the Caddy?

ksm1

The domestic you are thinking of is?

To get around the 4100 engine, Andre1969 suggested the Riviera contvertible with the Olds 307.

As I said, I am open to suggestions.

Thanks!

Mr_Shiftright

Sounds like the 300ZX is the only car that will feel and look different than what you already have. I agree that a $10K 928 is a disaster waiting to happen; a 325 convertible is too much like your 528. Perhaps you could sell the '76 Vette, which is not going anywhere in "collectibility", and parlay the original $10K plus another $7K-10K for the Vette (if it is nice) and then we could get you into some SERIOUSLY FUN machinery. (I am thinking Porsche 911 SC, 1978-83 series cars)

I still hope your not serious about the 80s Cadillac...to be as polite as possible...WOOF! WOOF!

isellhondas

Which domestic? Oh...I dunno. I've always had a soft spot for old Chevys. I'm talking about 1949-1954 models as original as possible. Yeah, I know...Shifty is shaking his head...

Maybe a sixties muscle car like a GTO or a 396 Camaro or an early Riviera.

The Cadillac and Riviera "convertables" from the mid eighties were kinda Mickey Mouse. They weren't true factory jobs, they were conversions.

O.K. I guess but they never excited me.

The 70 Le Mans convertable listed above is a pretty fun and reliable car especially with the 400 engine. This was one of the last pre-smogged up gelded versions that came later.

I agree that a 911SC would fit the bill. They are SERIOUS FUN. When you take it to the local Auto Haus, and "Klaus" comes out rubbing his hands together, looks at the engine and slowly shakes his teutonic head...that's SERIOUS MONEY!!

Mr_Shiftright

Well, you let the previous owner do that for you, is the trick.

isellhondas

And whatever you do, insist on taking it to Klaus for a buyer's inspection.

A warning though...no matter how perfect the car, Klaus will have a laundry list of things he "reccommends".

Still, you will hopefully know if the basic things are O.K.

Well worth the money spent!

ksm1

I have a cousin with a 49 Cadillac and I can't imagine sitting in So Cal freeway traffic for a one to two hour commute in a car of this vintage.
So the 49 to 54 Chevys that isellhondas likes won't work for me.

I have owned 60s Mustangs and have liked them. I could maybe see sitting in traffic in one of these. My wife likes the looks of the first generation Camaros.

I work with a number of Europeans and I know "Klaus" very well. Also, my father has had a "Klaus" for his Mercedess over the years.

The 911 does appeal to me, however I have a mental block at spending more than $10K for a single old car...there is fun in numbers and diversity!

isellhondas

As a So. Calif escapee, I don't miss those miserable freeways!

Mr_Shiftright

Well, what I meant was that German cars are very...German! They all have that heavy feel and stiff upholstery,suspension etc. and pretty quiet smooth motors, etc....they even SMELL the same I bet! So I think the 325 and 528 will feel a lot a like, even if one is a droptop. It'll be like your 528 with the roof cut off (do not try this at home).

ksm1

Understood. I see your point.

I have actually seen and been in a 5 series droptop - it was sad!

speedshift

Saw that you've enjoyed Mustangs. For something with a similar feel, but a different look inside and out, how about an early Cougar? A nice XR 7 with the Jaguar-look dash, lots of real gauges spread across the fake wood dash. They're light enough to perform well, even with the 289-302/AT 99% of them came with. Modern and small, but not too modern or small. I've had several and they can be a lot of fun.

isellhondas

It's been a long time since I've seen one come to think about it. They were a step above the Mustangs. I loved the sequential turn signals!

Remember the pesky rim blow steering wheels some of these had? To blow the horn, you squeezed the steering wheel. Not one of Ford's best ideas.