Does anyone out there know the production numbers for the 1997 Bonneville SE with Superchargers? I selected this option for the SE that I ordered that year, and after arguing with my salesmans, and his sales manager that this option WAS available for the SE (not just the SSEi) finally had my order accepted...after a phone call to the regional office confirmed that I was right.
That was over 4 years ago, and I still haven't seen a similarly optioned SE. I was about to trade it in for a 2001 Bonneville SSEi, but after I drove the new one I realized that it wasn't as fast as the '97. So I'll keep it awhile longer. I'm curious about the production numbers, or if anyone else has a similar car...drop me a note. Thanks
Caddie and Motor aTrend are having a test drive off at Yonkers Raceway in New York. If any of you guys are interested in siging up let me know by posting to the Aurora board. I do not monitor this board on a regular basis.
Watched the sports on our local tv station here in St. Louis today. The Rams are all reporting to training camp north of St. Louis. Caught Curt Warner arriving in his 2 year old (2000) bronze mist SSEi. He lives about 2 miles from me and I see him driving it from time to time... I wonder if he'd let me put a pulley on for him; make it run like Marshall Faulk! Maybe it will get us back to the SuperBowl
jack - I know of one in the Toronto area. It is owned by a memebr of the local grand prix club . I believe it is 97 also. As for being faster . . well that is possibly an arguable point. He has the pulley swapped, cone filter, magnaflow exhaust, and one of two other little goodies, and he ran a best 1/4 at 14.57.
It does provide the true sleeper effect though, since there are no "supercharged" badges on it, and the dual exhaust tips point downwards, and are pretty well hidden from view - -
Stacy I recommend you visit a local upholstery shop that your car dealer has worked with regarding your Grand Prix seat. They are used to adapting factory seats to people that are not comfortable with them. I looked into having my Bonneville seat taken apart and modified to suit me - but have since become accustomed to it if not totally satisfied with it and the $150 is better spent elsewhere now.
Dennis, thanks for the feedback! About your comments on the absence of a supercharger badge on your friends '97 Bonneville SE, my SE came from the factory with a very nice "SUPERCHARGED" badge beneath the trunk lock...about 8" long, 1" high. It's very easy to see once your behind the car, otherwise all you see are the Bonneville SE badges behind the fron fender wells.
In my case I had to order a specific upgrade package that was part of the Supercharger option which included the performance axle ratio, 16" wheels, and upgraded suspension and a few other things. The car is silver taupe with the 5 spoke aluminum wheels with 2 standard exhaust tips that point down, as you mentioned about your friend's car. It's a beautiful car with a noticable rake, which unfortunately (I guess) detracts from the "sleeper" appearance. Thanks.
Ken - I think I will go by the Pontiac place and see what they have to say about an upholstery shop. Except for the seat problem, I've really been enjoying the new car.
Jack - does the required upgrades you ordered come pretty close to the SLE package? I havent seen the club members SE up here yet, but I get the feeling that was the requirement. He removed the "supercharged" badge from his - wants total surprise on any victims.
This is the same Bonneville that Richard Lee built up and hit 196 mph (or something like that) last year.
Don't be misled by the article though. That engine is nowhere close to stock. Yes, the block itself came from G.M., but even the block has had some serious reworkings. The oiling system is completely revised, the balance shaft has been removed and the decks are o-ringed.
Other than the block, no other engine part is stock. Not the pistons, rods, crank, cam, valvetrain, heads, oil pan, valve covers, supercharger, intake manifold, fuel rails, computer, throttle body, etc.
It runs on 116 octane leaded fuel. There are no oxygen sensors, EGR or AIR. The gear has been changed to 2.56:1. The car is lowered several inches and has a full roll cage.
They will be running almost 30 psi of boost next month. If these mods could be had on a street car, trust me - I'd already have them on order.
I want to give it a little time before I look into making changes with the car seat at an uphostery shop. That lumbar roll I was using wound up causing more damage than good so once my back flair up gets better from that, I want to try getting used to the seat. (I did get the option with power seats and will play around with that for awhile.)
Here's my question - If I make upholstery changes to the seat, will that cause problems with my 3 year warranty? I keep meaning to get to the Pontiac dealership but things keep coming up. I've got 2100 or 2200 miles on my car so it may be when I get to the 3000 oil change that I get there.
Sorry for the complaining on aches and pains - I made a vow when hitting middle age that I wasn't going to do that. But this car seat is killing my back!!
About the only risk I could see is if the power adjustments on your seat went on the fritz and your dealership pointed at the reupholstry job. You could fight that though and you'd stand a good chance of winning. That being said, adding padding is not difficult to do - and wouldn't be obvious to anybody else down the line (I mean, you're not going to be turning it into to a Lazy Boy are you?).
Upholsterers would be justified being a tad nervous working on seats with side air bags (like the Bonneville). Fortunately (sort of), the GP doesn't have this feature.
Here are the highlights: New front and rear fascias for SE models; new exterior badging on SLE and SSEi models; new dual oval exhaust tips on SLE and SSEi models; new 17-inch standard aluminum wheels; new 17-inch optional chrome wheels on SLE and SSEi models; redesigned center console with cupholders; Monsoon audio system now standard on SSEi (what, no Bose?!); LATCH child safety seat anchors; interior trunk release handle; new Peak Expression cloth / fabric interior. New exterior colors: Polo Green, Dark Blue Metallic, and Granite Metallic. These changes are largely cosmetic, nothing was done to change the car's performance (not that I really want a stock '02 to outperform my '00). Interestingly, on the LeSabre the DIC is now in English and Spanish, but no word if the Bonnie got this too (not that I need Spanish either).
I'm going to give it a little time before seeing an upholsterer and hopefully I can get adjusted to the seat. If not, I'll get the upholstery done and take my chances with the power seats.
Stacy - If all else fails - find yourself the seat out of a late model SeVille that features the rolling lumbar - up and down your spine like mechanical massage! I sat in one once and turned it on - wow what a sensation. Too bad Pontiac doesn't offer that goodie!!
Of course alternatively you might find yourself a real live masseur (perhaps a Swedish blond hunk?) that can rub that pain right out of your life!
Good suggestion Ken - of course, Stacy might always look for a GP seat with the adjustable lumbar (like mine). GM would be glad to oblige ($$$$) or you might be lucky to find one in the right colour out of an insurance write-off.
I wonder how much it would cost to have a GP seat with adjustable lumber put in--I bet the first digit of that 4-digit figure is not a 1. The upholsterer sounds like a cheaper deal. I wonder if I show the uphosterer my seat from my Grand Am if they could duplicate that.
As far as the massage goes by the Swedish hunk, I'd rather have a cortisone shot right now. (Guess I am getting old!)
Yesterday I stopped by a Buick dealer to buy some Dexcool coolant fluid.
As we all know, by only using that fluid to top off the engine coolant, the system will have to be flushed only every 150000mls or 5 years.
As it has been said here, whenever the oil is changed the service guy may replenish the fluids under the hood, including the coolant. However, if serviced at somewhere else other than a dealer, the coolant will most likely not be GM's orange fluid, but the regular blue one.
Well, if you're like me who doesn't take your car to a dealer to have the oil changed, keep an eye on the guy so that he won't do something wrong like this when he's working in the engine compartment.
At the local amusement park here in Salem NH. As I approached the car - looking at the front of the BMW then my SE I confirmed my prior thoughts of the similarity between these two - but also confirmed that I think the Bonneville is far more elegant looking than the BMW. Pontiac really did a great job on the styling cues up front - got to say I still think it's one the best looking cars at any price.
Had a great time with the family. Kinda overworked my broken foot a bit - no crutches anymore but wearing the surgical shoe - it's improving nicely. The water rides were great on a warm summer night - gotta love it! You really get drenched on the "Boston Tea Party". Glad the kids are still young enough to give us an excuse to go.
Have a great day, everyone. It's another scorcher here. Have to jump in the lake when I get home tonight. Then that gin and tonic - mmmm lovin summer!
Looks like we have some of the "last' generation as well as "new" generation Bonnevilles. By the time I'm looking for my next ride a brand new Bonnie may be out of the question. Perhaps Impala next - supposed to be redesigned on the new mid luxe platform for 2006 - hope it turns out to be a beauty.
Stephen - I avoid rollercoasters! However I'll do a log flume or the Tea Party
For any of you who haven't seen a 2002 yet, here is one from a dealer site. This is a bronzemist SLE with the standard 17"-inch wheels. These make the car look so much better than those very ugly (IMHO) wirelace things that have been standard on the 00's & 01's. Anyway, here's the pic:
listening to some of you guys complain about the air on the bonnie makes me laugh. Most of you seem to live up north and even Canada. Down here in St. Louis, it's not hot until we see about 107F. My black ssei is as cool as ice. Parking under a tree or shaded area makes a BIG difference. Seat heater failed last week... have to replace entire seat covers. Has anyone tried the sylvania cool blue head lights? They are readily available, but do they provide more light or just look cool?
I also like the new standard wheels with the Pontiac arrows however, I like the chrome optional wheels better. Ezrapon - Who checks their seat heaters in St. Luis in August?
For some reason, the picture came up last night but not this morning. I guess Edmund's took it off.
I'm surprised that Pontiac is going to quit makeing the Bonneville. It seems to be a pretty good seller. Maybe they'll do like the Impala--cancel it and bring it back every few years.
Yes Ken, I was able to view it. I didn't know what the exact color of my '99 SLE was, but now having seen the photo (as bronzemist), I guess that's what I have. I don't have the spoiler and my wheels look similar, but don't have the arrows imprinted on them; other than that it looks pretty much the same.
How's your foot doing? I hope better. You obviously have lots of great support here on the various forums. It's always nice to see/hear you over at the RDV forums. Take care.
PS: I just saw stnel's post saying the photo has been removed, yet I still see it. hmmmmm... Maybe it has something to do w/ the servers across the country. It's a little cooler out here. We have about 65 degrees outside right now. I may have to check the seat heaters. Just kidding, I don't even have them in the Bonneville or the RDV. I'll just put on a sweater. Btw I'm about 2 miles from the Ocean and 15 minutes south of San Francisco. That explains it...
The article referenced in post #1775 is interesting because it is the first time I have seen some of GM's product plan "rumors" in print. The LeSabre is expected to be redesigned for 2005 or '06, and there seem to be plans to terminate the Bonneville, which one would expect to occur at the end of it's current product life cycle. This would leave Pontiac with the Grand Am, Grand Prix, Aztek, Vibe and Montana. (The presence of the Aztek, regardless of what Pontiac does with it, seems to me to be redundant with the Vibe and Montana, but that's another discussion.) The loss of the Sunfire is irrelevant since Chevrolet has always produced an essentially identical car, but the same cannot be said about the Bonneville. The Bonneville is unique in that it is niche vehicle, which seems to be one of the reasons why we as owners love the car and GM as a mass manufacturer dislikes it. It is the least expensive full-size performance sedan in GM's lineup, and besides the 300M (arguably) one of the few vehicles remaining in this niche from any manufacturer. The elimination of the Bonneville, if it does occur, should not come as a surprise though. In comparison with GM's difficult decision to dissolve Oldsmobile, killing off the Bonneville is an easy call. It would also be in line with GM's plans to trim the number of models it produces by eliminating the perennial poor sellers -- which are by-in-large it's full-size sedans. Given that Chevrolet's largest sedan is the Impala, the only large cars left will be under the luxury brands Cadillac and Buick. Which begs the question: What becomes of the Aurora?
Dennis, I can't recall the details and the paperwork I saved doesn't help much. After the dealership verified that the Supercharged option was available for the ' 97 Bonneville SE, the salesman told me that this option also required 16" wheels. The wheels required that I select the performance suspension option which was only available with...I think you get the picture. Anyway I wound up with the SE badges on the outside of the car with most of the SLE stuff on the inside, leather wrapped steering wheel, leather bucket seats, etc.. At least that's how I recall it.
and I trust that beach15 actually owns it, otherwise it should be removed due to copyright issues. It is in fact still there, so I don't know why some of you may be having trouble seeing it.
I know that many of you are "supercharged" on your bonnevilles but what about a basic sedan for grandma and grandpa? My 70 something folks have always driven Ford Crown Vic's but need to down size and economize. We aren't impressed with the Taurus so have been looking at Pontiacs. How is the Bonneville's history as far as engine reliability? They will probably need to look at used...1999 maybe? Comfort for long trips? Any thoughts will be appreciated.
Just returned from 3 weeks in Florida. Drove my wife's Park Ave. It has the gts package with the 3:05 axle ratio. It consistantly returned over 30 mph on the hiway. This car is essentialy a fat SE with the same drive train. Anyone getting this kind of mileage? Got in the ssei after missing it for 3 weeks. It road like a hardtail Harley after the Park. I kept over steering thinking I was still in the boat. it took about 1 hour and one nice smokey burn out to forget the park's nice ride. Anyone ever notice the similarities between the Lemans line and the current Bonneville line? SE/Tempest... bench seat entry level limited options, SLE/Lemans... exterior and interior upgrades, but limited performance potential GTO/SSEi... most goodies with suspension and horse power upgrades. A 60's concept that is still working. Hopefully it won't be killed off. SE guys: this is just an observation not a put down in anyway... I started in a 66 Tempest 2 speed auto... great car!
Just returned from 3 weeks in Florida. Drove my wife's Park Ave. It has the gts package with the 3:05 axle ratio. It consistantly returned over 30 mph on the hiway. This car is essentialy a fat SE with the same drive train. Anyone getting this kind of mileage? Got in the ssei after missing it for 3 weeks. It road like a hardtail Harley after the Park. I kept over steering thinking I was still in the boat. it took about 1 hour and one nice smokey burn out to forget the park's nice ride. Anyone ever notice the similarities between the Lemans line and the current Bonneville line? SE/Tempest... bench seat entry level limited options, SLE/Lemans... exterior and interior upgrades, but limited performance potential GTO/SSEi... most goodies with suspension and horsepower upgrades. A 60's concept that is still working. Hopefully it won't be killed off. SE guys: this is just an observation not a put down in anyway... I started in a 66 Tempest 2 speed auto... great car!
Sorry about the pic, Edmunds didn't remove it or anything, it just so happens that the pic hosting site I use is undergoing updates and is down today. It should be up by tomorrow or I might put it on another service so you can see it. Oh, and by the way, if any of you were wondering, I own a 2000 Chrysler 300M. Still like the Bonneville's a lot though. Look for the pic again sometime soon.
We're in the middle of a heatwave up here in the tundra (mid-90's the past several days, feels like over 100°F with the humidity) and the a/c is doing a great job at keeping the cabin nice and comfortable. Today, after having parked outside for a couple of hours, the Bonneville was almost cold within 10 minutes and I had to turn up the auto setting a couple of degrees (I normally keep the temp set at 74°F).
Lest Ezrapon think that we Canadians are a bunch of wimps, it does get hot up here in the summer - maybe not 107° but plenty hot all the same.
never even implied wimpisim. You pay dues in January that I can not even imagine. I hope I get my seat heater fixed before we see those 60 degree temps. The dealership mechanics are all out on strike here in St Louis. Picket lines everywhere and no service to be had. Having spent a lot of time in Frisco this summer, that is an environment I could get used to. Trouble is, I'd have the only Bonneville in the city. Everyone out there drives Boxters, Audis, BMWs, or old beaters. In a month, I never saw a Bonnie outside of the airport fleet. The weak tranmission wouldn't last a week on those nasty hills anyway.
That seems like a long time to cool off your Bonneville. Have you noticed that your Grand Prix a/c cools off quicker? It doesn't take long at all for my Grand Prix to cool off (2-3 minutes at the most) and I imagine I live in the hottest part of the U.S barring the Southwest. Although with our heat index, we may be about as hot as the Southwest.
Anyone that's been to New Orleans in the middle of summer could probably attest to the heat down here!
stnel: the GP does seem to cool down faster than the Bonnie but the 2 don't have the exact same system and I've never conducted a side by side test. When I wrote 10 minutes, it was referring to the time by which I was starting to feel too cold. I was certainly comfortable within a minute or two.
mechanics on strike?: Canada has lost its share of person-days to labour disputes but I have never seen dealership mechanics on strike. I suspect they're not unionized here.
Ezrapon: Don't worry buddy - I know that you don't think we Canadians are winter wimps. While it's been a couple of winters, we do get temps as low as -40°F with wind chills in the mid minus 50's. Then in the summer.... Our range extremes are probably among the highest in the world. The big 3's temperature research up here since the 1940's was one of the big advantages of domestics over imports - until Toyota started to conduct tests in the Arctic back in the 1970's.
wheels: I can honestly say that I like all the wheel designs available for the Bonneville - including these new ones on the '02. I think which one is "nicer" depends on which body style and colour you have. For example, I like the optional chrome wheels on the SSEi.
I can see the original pic now - but not the new link! Those new wheels are a definite improvement. I can only imagine the amount of time needed to keep those lacy 00 - 01 wheels clean! My 5 spoke SE alums are a cinch - and these kinda have a similar look. I like.
Picked up son from the airport last night - back from 2 wks overseas. I think this 12 yr old has done a bit of growing up this summer! Now the 2 younger (11 and 9)are off camping. When do mom and dad get our turn? LOL
Heat sure is on here - like you Dan - 90s and humid - yuck! Even the lake is getting a bit too warm for my likes. Vacation comes in 2 weeks - bet it's a lot cooler then!
theiceman - I assume you have auto climate control in your Bonneville but if you don't in your GP, it wouldn't be an accurate comparison. My GP cools off quickly - it's just a matter of whether to start the fan at 2 or 3. (I don't have auto climate control.)
2002 pic - I can see the pic again too but couldn't see the web site.
Comments
That was over 4 years ago, and I still haven't seen a similarly optioned SE. I was about to trade it in for a 2001 Bonneville SSEi, but after I drove the new one I realized that it wasn't as fast as the '97. So I'll keep it awhile longer. I'm curious about the production numbers, or if anyone else has a similar car...drop me a note. Thanks
That sounds like a true sleeper to me. A classic in the making.
Peace
KZM
It does provide the true sleeper effect though, since there are no "supercharged" badges on it, and the dual exhaust tips point downwards, and are pretty well hidden from view - -
Dennis
Cheers gang! Dan
Good luck
Ken
In my case I had to order a specific upgrade package that was part of the Supercharger option which included the performance axle ratio, 16" wheels, and upgraded suspension and a few other things. The car is silver taupe with the 5 spoke aluminum wheels with 2 standard exhaust tips that point down, as you mentioned about your friend's car. It's a beautiful car with a noticable rake, which unfortunately (I guess) detracts from the "sleeper" appearance. Thanks.
Stacy
http://fl.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf?/business/stories/20010728f28d8autorep.frm
BY
I havent seen the club members SE up here yet, but I get the feeling that was the requirement.
He removed the "supercharged" badge from his - wants total surprise on any victims.
Ken
Don't be misled by the article though. That engine is nowhere close to stock. Yes, the block itself came from G.M., but even the block has had some serious reworkings. The oiling system is completely revised, the balance shaft has been removed and the decks are o-ringed.
Other than the block, no other engine part is stock. Not the pistons, rods, crank, cam, valvetrain, heads, oil pan, valve covers, supercharger, intake manifold, fuel rails, computer, throttle body, etc.
It runs on 116 octane leaded fuel. There are no oxygen sensors, EGR or AIR. The gear has been changed to 2.56:1. The car is lowered several inches and has a full roll cage.
They will be running almost 30 psi of boost next month. If these mods could be had on a street car, trust me - I'd already have them on order.
Scott
2000 SSEi
13.985 @ 99.30
Here's my question - If I make upholstery changes to the seat, will that cause problems with my 3 year warranty? I keep meaning to get to the Pontiac dealership but things keep coming up. I've got 2100 or 2200 miles on my car so it may be when I get to the 3000 oil change that I get there.
Sorry for the complaining on aches and pains - I made a vow when hitting middle age that I wasn't going to do that. But this car seat is killing my back!!
Upholsterers would be justified being a tad nervous working on seats with side air bags (like the Bonneville). Fortunately (sort of), the GP doesn't have this feature.
New front and rear fascias for SE models; new exterior badging on SLE and SSEi models; new dual oval exhaust tips on SLE and SSEi models; new 17-inch standard aluminum wheels; new 17-inch optional chrome wheels on SLE and SSEi models; redesigned center console with cupholders; Monsoon audio system now standard on SSEi (what, no Bose?!); LATCH child safety seat anchors; interior trunk release handle; new Peak Expression cloth / fabric interior.
New exterior colors: Polo Green, Dark Blue Metallic, and Granite Metallic.
These changes are largely cosmetic, nothing was done to change the car's performance (not that I really want a stock '02 to outperform my '00). Interestingly, on the LeSabre the DIC is now in English and Spanish, but no word if the Bonnie got this too (not that I need Spanish either).
Of course alternatively you might find yourself a real live masseur (perhaps a Swedish blond hunk?) that can rub that pain right out of your life!
Ain't it great when the aches and pains stop!
Best wishes
Ken
As far as the massage goes by the Swedish hunk, I'd rather have a cortisone shot right now. (Guess I am getting old!)
As we all know, by only using that fluid to top off the engine coolant, the system will have to be flushed only every 150000mls or 5 years.
As it has been said here, whenever the oil is changed the service guy may replenish the fluids under the hood, including the coolant. However, if serviced at somewhere else other than a dealer, the coolant will most likely not be GM's orange fluid, but the regular blue one.
Well, if you're like me who doesn't take your car to a dealer to have the oil changed, keep an eye on the guy so that he won't do something wrong like this when he's working in the engine compartment.
HTH
Had a great time with the family. Kinda overworked my broken foot a bit - no crutches anymore but wearing the surgical shoe - it's improving nicely. The water rides were great on a warm summer night - gotta love it! You really get drenched on the "Boston Tea Party". Glad the kids are still young enough to give us an excuse to go.
Have a great day, everyone. It's another scorcher here. Have to jump in the lake when I get home tonight. Then that gin and tonic - mmmm lovin summer!
Ken
Stephen - I avoid rollercoasters! However I'll do a log flume or the Tea Party
Ken
Ezrapon - Who checks their seat heaters in St. Luis in August?
Ken
I'm surprised that Pontiac is going to quit makeing the Bonneville. It seems to be a pretty good seller. Maybe they'll do like the Impala--cancel it and bring it back every few years.
How's your foot doing? I hope better. You obviously have lots of great support here on the various forums. It's always nice to see/hear you over at the RDV forums. Take care.
PS: I just saw stnel's post saying the photo has been removed, yet I still see it. hmmmmm... Maybe it has something to do w/ the servers across the country. It's a little cooler out here. We have about 65 degrees outside right now. I may have to check the seat heaters. Just kidding, I don't even have them in the Bonneville or the RDV. I'll just put on a sweater. Btw I'm about 2 miles from the Ocean and 15 minutes south of San Francisco. That explains it...
The loss of the Sunfire is irrelevant since Chevrolet has always produced an essentially identical car, but the same cannot be said about the Bonneville. The Bonneville is unique in that it is niche vehicle, which seems to be one of the reasons why we as owners love the car and GM as a mass manufacturer dislikes it. It is the least expensive full-size performance sedan in GM's lineup, and besides the 300M (arguably) one of the few vehicles remaining in this niche from any manufacturer.
The elimination of the Bonneville, if it does occur, should not come as a surprise though. In comparison with GM's difficult decision to dissolve Oldsmobile, killing off the Bonneville is an easy call. It would also be in line with GM's plans to trim the number of models it produces by eliminating the perennial poor sellers -- which are by-in-large it's full-size sedans. Given that Chevrolet's largest sedan is the Impala, the only large cars left will be under the luxury brands Cadillac and Buick. Which begs the question: What becomes of the Aurora?
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
2002 Bonneville SLE
Lest Ezrapon think that we Canadians are a bunch of wimps, it does get hot up here in the summer - maybe not 107° but plenty hot all the same.
Anyone that's been to New Orleans in the middle of summer could probably attest to the heat down here!
I have yet to see a factory rim as nice as the swept spoke option. They are stunning.
mechanics on strike?: Canada has lost its share of person-days to labour disputes but I have never seen dealership mechanics on strike. I suspect they're not unionized here.
Ezrapon: Don't worry buddy - I know that you don't think we Canadians are winter wimps. While it's been a couple of winters, we do get temps as low as -40°F with wind chills in the mid minus 50's. Then in the summer.... Our range extremes are probably among the highest in the world. The big 3's temperature research up here since the 1940's was one of the big advantages of domestics over imports - until Toyota started to conduct tests in the Arctic back in the 1970's.
wheels: I can honestly say that I like all the wheel designs available for the Bonneville - including these new ones on the '02. I think which one is "nicer" depends on which body style and colour you have. For example, I like the optional chrome wheels on the SSEi.
Picked up son from the airport last night - back from 2 wks overseas. I think this 12 yr old has done a bit of growing up this summer! Now the 2 younger (11 and 9)are off camping. When do mom and dad get our turn? LOL
Heat sure is on here - like you Dan - 90s and humid - yuck! Even the lake is getting a bit too warm for my likes. Vacation comes in 2 weeks - bet it's a lot cooler then!
Take care all - stay cool!
Ken
2002 pic - I can see the pic again too but couldn't see the web site.