Saab 9-5 Sedan

smu1976 · October 2000

<<and,the lexus now has a mark
-levinson system as a top end. an excellent compan
in high end home systems,but in the automotive
field i prfer the nakamichi>>

Your being fooled here FFB, Mark Levinson is Harmon Kardon same as your Saab, same as JBL, same as Citation (Harmons old amp name) Mark Levinson sold out years ago to Madrigal which is owned by Harmon International. The old Mark Levinson would not put their name on a car system.

I prefer the Saab system,its not the best, but it compares to any factory system out there, and is better than quite a few. They give you a cassette, CD player, WB, and controls that are very easy to adjust. But audio is like cars, very subjective.

dhanley · October 2000

I like the HK system OK. It does not have powerful base or really strong treble, BUT it does have accurate sound reproduction. Probably not correct for american taste. Personally, i like it a lot better than bose systems i've heard. The HK in our saab is MUCH better than the system in our BMW. However, the $400 four-speaker system i put in my old car myself is substantially better (IMO) than either--4 kenwood 3-way speakers and a panasonic head unit.

dave

ffb13 · October 2000

Thank you for the info on mark levinson----i was surprised to hear of this name in cars.i still have some of their units in my basement ,--from the late 80's.
in any event,i do have to disagree on the hk system being bested or just as good as the others i have mentioned and some of which cars,i currently own. which i own now.
and,this is not subjective.
again,i suggest that if anyone wants to hear the difference,listen to the system in the lexus 400---nakamichi.
on the top end cadillac----bose---i could not believe that bose could do what they did----even the mid-range is clear and clean and the bass is tight.
mb---s class system----and,bmw-----840-(old car now-no longer being made )--and 7 series-current car.
listen to the systems on any of the above--be it cds' or fm, you will then understand what i am saying.---but go listen. do not post based on what you have been told or read.

saabee · October 2000

I took your suggestion and turned the gain up to 26 in both my wife's 1999 9-5 and my 2000 Aero. There is a marked improvement in sound quality in both cars, particularly at higher volume levels. Thanks Again!

thorgan · October 2000

Um..... trying to do the gain increase. Pressed WB, turned on the radio, and it lets me increase the starting volume. Not clear about how to increase gain here. Can someone enlighten me? Thanks!

saabber · October 2000

use the seek/volume buttons on your steering wheel to increase/decrease. I think you can even use the volume knob to change the settings.

I too changed the settings, and I am still not very impressed. I still sounds like I am listening to a one speaker system even though there are nine speakers. No fullness. I guess I can keep imagining that I am reading that good review on the HK system to make me believe that it really is a good system. The power of suggestion is very important you know.

davekovacs1 · October 2000

Additional information regarding the telematics system on the 2001 Saabs is now posted on the SaabUSA site. Unfortunately, it does not look like some of the features will be available in the web based package until early 2001.

Bretfratz - I agree that the premium sound system is better in the Saab than the Bose in the Infiniti I have. My Audi had a Bose too and I think it colored the music. Also the Bose in the Mercedes was just ok - - out of the Audi, Infiniti and Mercedes the bose in the MB was the least impressive. My Saab dealer set up preferences on the audio system and I think it is fine.

As part of the pre-delivery the dealer set the preference for the the ACC so I actually don't know what the factory defaults are - - but I know they set it up so that in cool weather it first discharges to the floor and then to the front glass.

By the way the super secret Saab cult convention went over very well. ;-)

Take care,

Dave Kovacs

undecided5 · October 2000

To those who post negative comments regarding their Saabs-if you are unhappy with your car, buy something else. Life is short folks, and we tend to spend loads of time in our cars. For me, for the past 12 years, that has meant Saabs. But, clearly, for some of you out there, you need to get something else. I find it very hard to take any comments seriously from someone who is dissatisfied but not smart enough to change to a car that will provide them with the satisfaction they are missing. Duh!

saabber · October 2000

Life is short, but some of us do not have the money to simply throw away cars that have problems that WE DID NOT EXPECT. Unfortunately, saabs depreciate so quickly that throwing away the saab is not the easy response. The penalty is just too great.

It nice that you have had saabs for the past 12 years, but saab realizes now with its heavily subsidized leases that its new market lies outside of those who will buy saabs for the rest of their lives because that's what they do. My mother stated 20 years ago that she would never drive a Ford. Today, she is driving a Ford that she inherited from an uncle and now she is in the process of buying another. Car companies change, but sometimes the people who drive the cars dont, and they will hype whatever their loyal car company produces even if the comments are outdated.

The point is that cars change, and for those that have driven saabs for 12 years, you may not understand what those who have driven an Infiniti or Lexus as our last car are talking about when we complain about a stereo or a fuel tank thunking problem. Yes, saab made a great car 12 years ago, but in today's market, the saturn is catching up to the saab very quickly, and instead of reacting to the changes, saab is already planning for the doubling of its sales when it cannot even sell its current inventory without huge subsidies.

Yes, I (just like the many others who leased the 9-5 because it was a "great deal") will have the opportunity to switch when our leases are up. Maybe if saab has another "great deal" in a few years, it will have some repeat customers. However, I would not bank on those that went for the huge subsidies as becoming the core loyal saab group. The reality of the new market is that the best car with the best value wins. Why not focus on the car company and what it is doing to produce the best car, rather than criticizing the new owners of those cars for not throwing away a car which has many undisclosed problems.

smu1976 · October 2000

The starting volume is not the listening volume. This is probably the greatest part of the confusion. It is the gain on the amp. Turn the gain up from the preset "9" to around "25" or "26". Wait about five seconds then the sound will go back down. When your restart your car or turn on base model for there is a about a 90 watt difference in the amps.

Saaber, yes, read all the articles and reviews on the car, and the radio you bought, and tell us their all wrong. We know "you the man".

For those like yourself, who can not hear this difference, if you can't here over a doubling of power (watts) within the small cabin of a car, I would suggest "miracle ear" and q-tips.

ffb13 · October 2000

i was just given a loaner,a 2001 9.5 and i am impressed. --the power is way up there,close to my aero.but not that dramatic. and,it is the 4 cylinder engine---i checked ,because i could not believe it. and,quiet.
and,the suspension is tight and not hard. better than the previous 9.5 by 150 %. not as hard as the aero and,very satisfying.
the car has 350 miles on it.
and,regular 16 inch tires. not the cut prone 17 inchers.
what gives?

davekovacs1 · October 2000

After reviewing yesterday's postings my interest was peaked, but not clipped (audio joke)regarding the gain control. I didn't have experience in that area since I was fine with the HK sound system as it was delivered. However last night I did check the preset on the gain band mine was set by the dealer to 25.

I would also suggest to people to either change the pre-set on the ACC or have the dealer do it so that air initially comes out of the floor ducts. It eliminates the warm air in the face in the summer and prevents misting on the inside of the windshield for the first few moments after starting the car in cool weather.

Regards,

Dave Kovacs

saabber · October 2000

After reading all of those articles and reviews, look at actual sales and what real people are doing. Any article which is written can claim anything for whatever motive, but real people make decisions based on real tastes. Real people know what to believe and what not to believe. Leasing/selling 50 cars per US state per month in a record month is not very impressive. And, after that, saab is advertising like crazy to move even more leases. A car company can only lose so much money per car sale ($600) before it has to stop believing its own written hype, and start addressing real customer concerns (instead of addressing the concerns of the 5 saab car owner who refuses to acknowledge any problems).

I don't think "I'm the man." I think that consumers speak for themselves, although psychology tells me that such a comment would be made by someone who is insecure about himself (low self esteem) and has a large ego. I think that some should think about the comments they make and if they add anything to this discussion, or if they are just "ego" comments.

rtd1 · October 2000

You're probably feeling the extra 15 hp that the LPT 2.3L-4 is putting out this model year. Nice to hear that the base car now has more "go".

Has anybody read a torque specification for this engine?

davekovacs1 · October 2000

The torque on the 2.3 T 185 HP is 207 at 1800 rpm.

Regards,

Dave Kovacs

dhanley · October 2000

Buy a saturn then. They're the only ones with such a thing. Or negotiate a short lease.

Though it seems some people will be unsatisfied with anything. If you think a car with outstanding scores for initial quality is garbage, well....

dave

ffb13 · October 2000

just got my 2000 aero back from the dealer and have learned that he performed recalls.
#717----and 719---ck valve and banjo bolt----even though the banjo bolt was done under a recall 4 mos. ago.this is another recall ,i guess.

also recalled----# 724--i got a new ECM-----i did not ask for it.
i am told by the dealer that the recall is the result of complaints on engine stumbling and rough idle,

also, they did another recall #838--- disturbances due to wiring harness provisions for cd changer------

all of these recalls start ou with the phrase-------customer requests--recall #.......----

well,what can i say.--the car runs great and has been running great except for occasional stumbling on start up.

well,anything else that you guys think my dealer missed.----

saabber · October 2000

On saabnet, I have been reading all kinds of posts from those who keep getting misinformation from their dealers. Some thought that the recall only applied to the I4 rather than the V6 because that is what the dealer told them. What kind of sorry saab dealer network is out there where the dealers cannot even get something as major as the ECU recall right? Apparently, many (including myself) have not even received the recall letters. One person reported that they had to go the saab USA to find out that the dealer should have issued a recall letter, and then they later got an apology from the dealer. It's kind of like the dealers that all state that no one has ever complained about the fuel tank thunking (Even my dealer, who recently told one of my work colleagues the same story even after I brought the fuel tank issue to the same technician's attention six months earlier). Under the new law recently passed by Congress (in the wake of firestone), that technician might be able to qualify for up to a 15 year prison term for such deception if it can be proven.
Even though many have stated here that this is a dealer problem rather than a saab USA problem, I disagree. If your front line employees are stumbling, there is going to be a backlash. Saab is not going to "double" its sales this way.

saabber · October 2000

Unfortunately, as you have probably seen on saabnet, many saab dealers have been less than helpful to many of the posters there, and that was the subject of my last post. If the saab dealers cannot help their own customers, or they provide misinformation, it is understandable that such incorrect customer information will be out there.

Remember, it is just ordinary car owners that own these things, and in most cases, most of these owners are not experts in car repair and bad information provided by the dealer can sometimes really produce bad results. Hopefully your post has helped some here.

ffb13 · October 2000

dave kovacs----re your post----lack of benefit addl. 15 hp.------i assume that this means the manual tr.

does the ecm recall affect the hp or torque on the
2000 aero?

davekovacs1 · October 2000

For MY2001, the U.S. base engine i4 peak horsepower has increased by 15 hp to 185 hp. This has been accomplished through engine management software enhancements. This affected both manual and automatic versions of the base 9-5.

The recall will not change or alter the hp or torque of any model affected by the campaign. The base 9-5, 9-5 SE V6 and 9-5 Aero affected by the recall will continue to have the same horsepower and torque after the T7 switch.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards,

Dave Kovacs

aeroav8r · October 2000

Anyone know if we can somehow get a 2001 ECU? I'd love to have another 10hp for my Aero!
Thanks,
aeroav8r

davekovacs1 · October 2000

The MY2001 U.S. Aero continues to have the 230HP HOT engine. I believe there are other variants of the Aero in other markets. As you know the torque varies depending on manual or auto but those standards have not changed for MY2001 either for the U.S. market.

So I don't believe a 2001 ECU will affect the U.S. Aero engines specs.

Within the U.S. market only the MY 2001 based model 9-5 with the lpt I4 engine which previously was 170 is now 185 hp. The specs of the SE & Aero remain unchanged.

Regards,

Dave Kovacs

rtd1 · October 2000

Ah, but the aftermarket awaits. You can get a reprogrammed ECU from several sources (on an exchange basis) which will increase your horsepower and torque considerably. Three that I can think of off the top of my head are Abbott, Hirsch and Swedish Dynamics.

Any of these will relieve your wallet of over one kilobuck and potentially put your (US) warranty in jeopardy (although this latter point is the source of much conjecture). In any case, not recommended for the automatic Areo.

Also, I'd make sure that they're reprogramming one of the replacement ECUs and not a recalled box.

saabber · October 2000

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/11/auto.safety.bill/index.html

I wonder if the timing of the ECU recall has anything to do with certain saab executives deciding that they like their life outside of a 8' x 10' cell.

saabber · October 2000

This is a free forum for real owners of saabs who are not affilated with saab. It would be nice for some here to make remarks without the influence of a corporate machine that doesn't always have the consumer's interest as their own.

Unfortunately, the actual owners of a saab 9-5 may have different experiences to share which do not involve corporate comments or corporate influence. This is a site for real owners to express their real opinions about their vehicle.

It is clear that saab USA may have its attention on this site due to the free comments that have been made by real owners of the vehicles. They now probably wonder why a great percentage of prospective customers are now asking real questions to their dealers about the random stalling and the fuel tank issue. I guess if i were in saab's shoes, I too would make sure that a "control" was placed on the free chatting which goes on. Unfortunately, the law is now on the side of promoting the free exchange of information among customers, especially those issues which affect safety like the ECU issue. The ECU stalling issue was criticized and downplayed by many here months ago claiming that no one ever experienced the problem. Now, after the recall which admits that any 99-00 saab could stall at any time, we seem not to be hearing the apologies of those that tried their hardest to tell new consumers that no real problem existed. Those coporate officials that try to block or "control" that free exchange now may themselves become liable to criminal penalties. It should be noted that those that participate under the direction of corporate executives to block information or mislead on safety issues may themselves become liable under federal law for civil and criminal penalties.
Some have shown here that either they have a corporate affiliation with saab, or maybe have a bad self esteem problem and would like to make others think that they have a corporate affiliation. Whatever the case may be, the real prospective customers who come to this site for real information about a very expensive purchase can judge the information presented for themselves.

davekovacs1 · October 2000

Hmm that was an interesting response to my message.

Your question was directly related to the overall ethics of the senior management team at Saab. I would think it only fair to allow them to provide you with input.

In a case were one questions peoples ethics and morals I think it is suitable to not have the issue be controlled by one person's caustic nature and allow the people who are referenced to also be heard.

'Free chat' does not mean that only one person or perspective is presented. Free chat allows for all parties, if they so choose, to be able to comment on a matter.

Eventually you will realize that I am in no way related to Saab.

Regards,

Dave Kovacs

dski · October 2000

>I wonder if the timing of the ECU recall has
anything to do with certain saab executives
deciding that they like their life outside of a 8'
x 10' cell.<

That is a joke - right?

Drew

davekovacs1 · October 2000

We will just have to wait and see on that one.

Regards,

Dave Kovacs

rbr · October 2000

Again, I'm new around here but I really find it hard to believe -- after reviewing the last 500-600 notes -- that Saab has any presence on this site, although I would certainly appreciate it if they would. For instance, I believe there are a few people that participate on the Lincoln LS Message Board that represent themselves to be part of the Lincoln Mercury organization and I think the board is better for it -- there is a remarkable amount of information flowing through that forum. It would be great if Saab would participate, not in a manner that would be violative of the rules, but would bring information to the forum and answer fair questions posed.

And Saaber, with all due respect (I do genuinely appreciate your first reply to my initial "Fuel tank thunking" post a few days ago), I think your jail cell post was a quite a bit over the top, and I dont understand why you have so many consistently negative comments about a car that you drive that has received generally very favorable comments in the press.

I have driven one VW, three Lexuses (ES250, ES300, GS300) and one Honda Accord in that order (yup, I got married and had a couple kids to put me back in the Honda -- smile). I have had very good luck with my 97 900SE, and with the possible exception of RWD GS300, my Saab is most enjoyable car I have ever driven for any length of time. In my opinion, the 9-5 SE that I will be getting is even more fun to drive. Is the service as good as Lexus? No, but its surprisingly close. Is the reliability as good as the Honda? With the exception of an alternator problem which was handled very quickly, the answer is yes. By the way, I have no affiliation with Saab or GM whatsoever.

I would really love to hear about some of the more positive comments about this car. For instance, although I appreciate most all of the comments on this board, the comments from smu1976 about the gain control issue and the improvement it can make to the stereo were wonderful.

Thanks for listening.

saabber · October 2000

I would love to see more comments like yours which are fair, honest, and make a reasoned point. Unfortunately, I do think that some are afraid to post here because they have to deal with the fear of being attacked by others. That is not right as this is an open forum for ideas presented by all sides.
I do not hate my saab, but I don't have a loving affinity for it either. But, if some on this site try to polarize anyone who makes a negative statement about the 9-5, of course, those that make the negative statements will be made out to be total saabhaters.

Drew, yes my comments were joking, as the recall happened before the law was passed. However, safety is not a joke, and there is no question in my mind that the firestone issues which prompted the change in the law may have "pushed" saab to act a little more quickly in deciding that they could not continue to let the random stalling issue go ignored. (the posts here and on saabnet put them on pretty clear notice that the problem existed). The NHSTA is also involved in most recalls, and sometimes the recalls are not exactly voluntary. Obviously, I would not want any honest hardworking exec to be in prison, however, if there were an executive that knew about random stalling and took months/years to decide on how to handle "the stalling issue," putting the lives of innocent drivers at risk, then yes, I think prison would be appropriate. That is what the new law states, and that was the point of my post.

Unfortunately, some of the comments here are driven by "egos" rather than the true concerns for other saab owners. Some here seem to have the need to post a little more than others and make others believe that they have "insider" saab contacts to boost their own ego. Those same posters seem to have to add their "educated" comment on every issue to make sure that they preserve their own status as the "saab guru" on this site. Saabnet does not really allow for that, so those same posters stay here rather than go to saabnet where they personally are not exactly "noticed." Some here have made statements criticizing "new money" owners of saabs (Mr. Kovacs) without realizing that most new owners of saabs are probably "new money" and they work hard for it. Just remember, substantive comments are appreciated, "ego" (as shown in the need to be "saab's biggest fan") is not.
Hope we have more comments (even if they do not agree with my positions) from new posters as those real commments from real owners are most refreshing to this site, and they spawn the real issues for debate which are useful to real owners.
As many here will recall, it was the criticism of the saab stereo system that led to the discussion of useful tips for setting the system in a different manner. Otherwise, we would have continued to just see the "ego" of some claiming that the HK system was the best in the world anyone who states otherwise is just not right. Let's not forget that.

ffb13 · October 2000

i think that your comments ,though negative most of the time are 90% of the time ,on target.
but,when you get into a forum such as this,which is centered around a "cult" car,you will run into criticism.
cult followers do not allow negative remarks even though they ,the remarks, may be correct.
as a new saab owner,i have always stated that a car is a car is a car....period.
the saab has proven to be,(aero) a fun car.
and after 19,000 miles it has not left me stranded anywhere.
and,i have had 4 items replaced under recall in one year.
there is now,a strange oil leak comming from somewhere at the front,near the left tire.
and,the gas thumping is still there ,but i do not listen for it anymore. it is only a minor annoyance.
in any event,the saab is going into storage tonite until mid-december--i am taking the 550 spyder on a long trip.
and,hopefully when i get back the oil leak would have dissapeared.
and,the stereo,after doing the gain up to 26 is still awful----but then ,again,i find the sound of the open 550 --unrestricted muffler ie--open muffler.sweet music.

rbr · October 2000

If I may, my first technical question: I installed an "aftermarket" Clarion CD changer in my 97 900SE -- this is allegedly (according to my Saab sales representative) the identical unit to the unit sold by Saab (in a different color and without the cover), and it did plug directly to the cord supplied by Saab. The model number is RDC634 and it appears to have 10 pins in 4 rows (2-3-2-3).

My question is, what are the chances of being able to transfer this unit to my 2001 9-5SE without adapters or other big hassle? If the CD changer used by Saab currently is the same basic unit they used in 1997, my unit should theoretically work. Also, how hard is it to fish the cord out from behind the trunk liner to hook it up to the changer?

Any advice appreciated -- thanks in advance.

Saaber, by the way, thanks for your additional remarks -- fair criticism is always part of a good forum.

timo8 · October 2000

Saaber,

It seems as if all of your posts are negative, detailing how Saab is a corporation out to lie, producing vehicles with numerous defects that they cover up. I have had much more experience with Saabs than you, in both years and vehicles, and can honestly say that Saab puts out a genuinely good product. Yes, there are flaws, some minor and others major, but that is the same with any make or model you pick. I readily admit that in years past I have had great difficulty with my Saabs (especially a 9000), but the new models (9-3 & 9-5) have performed shiningly. I cannot tell you how pleased I am with my 2000 9-5, not a rattle, squeak, fuel slosh, or problem to be found. While I might have to get the ECU replaced (I have not received a letter yet), who cares? Saab is going to pay the bill. And let me qualify this by saying that I love BMW, Volvo, and Audi, I think they make great cars too. So, what do you like about your Saab?

Timo8

saabber · October 2000

First, let me say welcome, and I do appreciate your "new" comments to this forum.
You have stated:
>It seems as if all of your posts are negative,
detailing how Saab is a corporation out to lie,
producing vehicles with numerous defects that they
cover up>

No, but I agree that that's what it "seems" after many of the "regulars" have gone to work to personally attack everything that i have said.
I merely hope that all new purchasers have the ability to obtain free information here so they make informed purchases. The fuel tank thunk (which is a design defect), the ECU issue (before the recall), the shifting problems, etc. are issues that new purchasers should be able to obtain here with ease. The problem has been that the "egos" of some could not take that these issues would be seen by new purchasers.
There have been many new owners who purchase the saab with full knowledge of these issues, and as you can see by looking at old posts, I have nothing but supportive comments for their decisions once they have the information.
Come to think about it, I never attack those who are here to make positive comments about the saab. Everyone has a right to make any comments they want without personal attacks.

By the way, I do not think that anyone's long ownership of saabs makes them any more or less qualified than others to comment on this model. As a matter of fact, others who have recently come from other more recent competitor models (even cheaper models that have recently come a long way) may be more qualified to draw comparisons of the new saab to competitor models. I always laugh when I hear general comments, for example, about Audi because someone had problems with their 1988 Audi 5000. Anyway, we can always agree to disagree on this issue.

As for my likes, I have mentioned in earlier posts that I like the stereo controls on the steering wheel, I like the looks of the vehicle, and I generally like the handling at cruising speeds above 60mph.
I don't like random noises in a car, which is why I do not like the fuel tank thunk problem, or my crackling sunroof, or the noisy acceleration from the V6.
I personally disagree that saab puts out a good product for its price range. If this were a $28-30k car (the SE), then I would agree. However, for a $38k car, I think the "quirks" are too many. Generally, I do not think that the saab 9-5 is a bad car if it were in a more appropriate price range. I think the heavily subsidized leases reduce that problem a little as saab acknowledges that the free market is not valuing the 9-5 (SE) as a $38k car either.
Thanks again for your "new" comments, and I think that is very helpful for new directions.

saabee · October 2000

Sources that asked to remain anonymous have identified Saaber as a paid saboteur for a group named "Saab's are Crap" (SAC). SAC is a little known group created and sponsored by the Worldwide Automobile Manufacturers Association (WAMA) in order to alienate prospective Saab buyers and to undermine Saab's reputation in an effort to bolster their sales at the expense of Saab's.

A source close to SAC states Saaber's 9-5 was purchased by the WAMA and modifications were made on certain components of the car to ensure premature failure. He is being paid an undisclosed, but substantial sum of money and has been given the latest computer and Internet technology in order to instantaneously refute any positive statements by Saab owners regarding Saab or their cars from any location around the world.

Saaber, I'm just kidding, but couldn't resist.

dski · October 2000

>if some on this site try to polarize anyone who makes a negative statement about the 9-5, of course, those that make the negative statements will be made out to be total saabhaters.<

It's not the reporting of your problems that anger some of us. I pesonally don't have a problem with that - within reason. It's your total "contempt" for Saab as a Company. It's your "Conspiracy Theories" about Saab as a company. The way you report about Saab conspiracies sometimes makes me wonder how many square feet your one room shack in the woods has.

Linking the ECM recall to Firestone is irresponsible. No comparison can be equated. You should know that. As far as knowing the root of the problems surrounding the ECM thing, there's not always a black and white answer or easy solution. Automotive systems are complicated sometimes and answers don't always come quickly or easily. I think they acted within reason and quickly. If you want a comparison, forget about Firestone, look at Ford's current Ignition system troubles surrounding cars from as far back as the 70's. I think Saab situation is something to be proud of not to be critical of. Ford is still hiding from their ignition woe's.

Drew

saabber · October 2000

When it comes down to it, my posts point out issues for new purchasers to consider. Yes, they are negative at times, but I believe new purchasers (as opposed to the "regulars") may want to know this stuff and have a right to the information.

All of the "conspiracy theory" stuff (which is your quote, not mine) seems to be directed to make newcomers believe that all negative comments stated about the saab come from only those that cant possibly have any points to make. Its very easy to try to discredit others by claiming that they are just out to try to attack "big corporate america."

I am a real owner of a saab that just wants my comments on my driving experience to be heard. No "ego" here, like those that seem to want to make others think that they are better than others because they have insider contacts with saab.

The conspiracy stuff did not work for Hillary, and it doesn't work here to make some believe that I am trying to show a conspiracy theory.
This so-called connection to the firestone stuff that you allege that I put forth was actually stating that the Firestone evironment may have led to Saab deciding to finally act on an ECU safety issue. I guess you can make that into a "conspiracy theory," but I can state that the firestone environment has clearly affected the thinking of auto companies on safety issues. Yes, all cars are not perfect, and how companies deal with that makes all the difference. If you are going to sell a car for $38k, it should not have more defects and "quirks" than a car that sells for $15k.

The "contempt" that you speak about is mostly about personal attacks that have been made here for anyone who makes negative comments. It's helpful to actually read the comments that others make rather than just conveniently (in one's own mind) develop ideas about what they think has been said rather than what has actually been said. I am not sure your record of "actually" reading old posts before commenting is perfect on that issue, but I will temper my words to leave it at that.
When some here email each other back and forth outside of this forum to try to establish tactics for discrediting those that say negative things about a saab, that is not positive for this forum. This anger about someone's comtempt for saab seems to come more from what you read in your outside emails rather than what is actually stated here.

My advice: Read the posts HERE and try to recognize whether the statements show contempt for saab or contempt for those with big "egos" who want to make others believe that (2) they know better than the real owners of the saab 9-5 and (2) the reported problems are not real.

By the way, as you know, the new law which may impose prison sentences on auto execs which hide safety issues should take care of a lot of problems which are out there. I do not think safety is a joke and I do look forward to seeing the deterrent effect of this law as reflected in a car executive's decisions to not cut corners on certain safety issues in the manufacturing process.

L8_Apex · October 2000

Going forward, any posts regarding saabber's problems with his car that don't explicitly and exclusively address those problem in a brief, to-the-point technical manner will be removed. Likewise, any posts about the politics behind the problems, personal attacks, laws possibly relating to resolving problems like this, etc. will also be removed. It's become painfully obvious that these items cannot be addressed without the banter of several participants dominating this topic. New guests can read back through the posts; it's not necessary to post and re-post. If we want to help new guests, we can help them find those posts. Making this topic lack an inviting atmosphere is not the way to help those considering the purchase of a Saab 9-5.

I hate to have to do this but... Any and all posts that contain any commentary or discussion that does not serve to improve the health of this topic will be removed. I've kindly asked both sides to either a) use restraint and discretion or b) ignore the opposition and neither have chosen to employ these methods.

As I've mentioned in the past, most of you are very eloquent, informed and genuinely helpful but I can't let this top just go on and on in the current state.

Thanks,

L8_Apex
Sedans Host

saabber · October 2000

That's not what I thought the user agreement stated, but I guess the tactics of others making such personal attacks pointing to the responses to the personal attacks as cluttering this area worked.

The host's comments do not seem to refer to all sides (and even refers to one specific user name who has always complied in full with the terms of use agreement). Instead of ACTUALLY ENFORCING the "terms of use" agreement which prohibits personal attacks, I guess its easier to make individual judgements to just ban the actual opinions. Seems fair.

However, I guess the host rules, and what the host wants the host can claim.

eieio1 · October 2000

I called my dealer today and verified that my car needs the ECU replaced as well as 2 other recalls. He told me I can be in and out in an hour. That seems quick to me -- can anyone verify how long it ook to have their ECU replaced?

Doug

P.S. Saaber, when will you learn just to shut the hell up? I would love to have you in my Marine Corps!

davekovacs1 · October 2000

It took approximately 1 hour to replace the ecu and to do a couple of other items on the 99 9-5 SE.

As an FYI - my right (passenger side) FOG light on my 2001 9-5 SE did suffer a breakage yesterday. The glass spidered - most likely because of a 10 mile section of highway that was being ripped up and loose stones were everywhere. Oh well. It gets fixed on Monday. At least I didn't get any stone chips on the paint or windshield.

Lexan plastic or the equivalent might be a better material for the fog light. I know that material or the equivalent can not be used on the main lights because of the use of wipers but the fog lights might benefit from that material.

Regards,

Dave Kovacs

L8_Apex · October 2000

The Participants Agreement addresses the management of this topic in two separate statements. One is a little more indirect and obscure, the other is not.

"I understand that civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Town Hall." The lack of discretion in repeating yourself over and over in this topic constitutes a disrespect to the community that would like to carry on polite conversation about other matters. Outright personal attacks have been promptly removed. Comments of yours like, "Unfortunately, some of the comments here are driven by "egos" rather than the true concerns for other saab owners.", could constitute a personal attack using the liberal interpretation under which you've claimed to be "personally" attacked.

That being said, in the end, the Participants Agreement reads: "However, Edmunds.com, Inc. reserves the right to review any content submitted in any fashion to Town Hall and to remove or refuse to post any such content in its sole discretion. Edmunds.com, Inc. further reserves the right to remove or hide any message from the site." Unfortunately, I have to do what I have to do and... as it appears to not only the more vocal guests here, but to some new or silent guests and myself, your constant reiteration and complaining about the problems with your car is the point of failure in this topic. I have defended your right to post negative feedback and do feel that it is most useful but it's become obvious that this can't be done without derailing the topic. Lengthy posts like 251 and 255 are complaining as much about the other members of the forum as they are about your car. These posts don't do anything to help current owners, prospective owners or your car.

I don't like it when I have to draw a line in the sand like this but this gone on too long in this topic and I'm growing weary of making reasonable requests to all sides only to have them honored for a short period or not at all.

Thanks,

L8_Apex
Sedans Host

saabee · October 2000

I had not visited the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)web cite for several months. Thought I would look at the "customer complaints" database regarding the 9-5 for model year 1999 and 2000. Guess what? Only three complaints, two of which have not been posted here. Based on the complaints to NHTSA I would say overall the 9-5 has and continues to perform extremely well.

1) Parking brakes failed on two occasions, one incident resulted in damage to vehicle when vehicle rolled into objects.

2) A Saab was totaled on 11/15/99 because it began to roll from side to side when quick lane changes were made. The rolling had happened twice before under similar circumstances.

3) Vehicle will stall intermittently while in stop and go traffic with A/C on. Defect has occurred 6 times. Dealer cannot determine cause of defect.

saabber · October 2000

Just a quick check of the NHSTA database, and I found three complaints on the fuel tank issue for 2000. It requires a different VIN number to file a complaint.
http://www.nhtsa.org/cars/problems/complain/compmmy4.cfm

mypublicperson · October 2000

This is my first post here - wish i'd known of this earlier.
I leased a new 1999 9-5 SE. Delivery was made on December 28th 1998. two weeks later on the coldest day of January (thats in Canada - pretty cold) my heating failed. Had to drive to the dealer with my windows open in order to see. Had a loaner for two weeks while they tried to get a new ACC computer. Which was replaced yet again with a 3rd computer which also fails sporadically - Saab now wants to try reprogramming the system with software upgrades (shades of Microsoft?).
Later in 1999 the sunroof started leaking - OEM not aftermarket. Its been resealed, reinstalled and replaced at various times - still leaked up to when I took Saab/GM to arbitration.
They admitted that there were problems and wanted to have engineers look at the vehicle - they also extended the warranty to four years / 100,000 Km.
However, the arbitrator sided with me and ordered Saab to buy the car back from me.
I wish the dealer sold something else - they've done the best they could - always arranged a loaner and at one point taught me how to reinitialize the ACC computer so that I could get it to run while waiting for parts. I'd go back to them for something else.
Will never consider another Saab. Its at least as bad as my last Volvo.

saabber · October 2000

If you choose to, you can point this issue out to the NHTSA. For all defect complaints, you can fill out a form. You do need your vehicle identication number (VIN).

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/oscripts/IVOQ/VOQ/voq1.cfm

jeff5302 · October 2000

I have hesitated to write further since my initial post here (159) because of the overall tone of the site. I would like to thank the host for his most recent post (263) and would like to be optimistic that things will improve here. Repeated postings by the "combatants" simply do not help the rest of us, and certainly lead to speculation as to why people bother doing this.

My wife has a base 1999 9-5. We both like it because it is fun. It is also quite comfortable for my back (I recognize that the seats don't give lots of sporty lateral support, but a flat seat back is what I need). It also feels fast. I drive a V-8 (an Oldsmobile Aurora, 1997; stay away from Oldsmobile, both on reliability and resale grounds; the problems with my Aurora make most of the postings here pale in comparison) and the Saab 4 still feels good. In fact, while I'm not a hot rodder, I have a heavier foot than my wife 0-60, and if I step on the gas while stopped I can lay a patch. With a 4 cylinder engine. Neat.

I'm thinking about replacing my turkey (er, Aurora) and am giving serious thought to a 2001 9-5. Last weekend I drove both a base 9-5 and a 6 cylinder SE (both 2001s). Both of them hesitated substantially (2-3 seconds) when I started up from 0. I was in an empty parking lot and tried this exercise several times with the same result. This was quite a disappointment in contrast to my wife's car. The local Saab people have no explanation, but one service type said that this kind of reaction represents a defect.

Is there anyone out there driving a 2001 9-5 with the extra 15 horsepower who can comment on this situation? Thanks.

saabee · October 2000

Saabber, I stand corrected. When I did my query I used NHSTA "Make", "Model", "Year" (the query to the right as you face your computer screen) and it only came up with information regarding the 1999's nothing on 2000 9-5's fuel tank thunk, even though I specifically requested 2000 info. When using the other query method (left side of screen) the 2000 information was made available. Obviously NHSTA needs to correct this problem so accurate information is supplied by either query.

bmwjoe · October 2000

Thank you L8_Apex for putting this forum back on topic.

Saab 9-5 Sedan

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