BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

leenelsonmd · July 2002

Thanks for the response. I love this board. It helps me work through this whole process and I learn something everyday. I wish I had more knowledge to share.

Is a little talk about the M3 truly off topic? It is a 3 series and an E46. I will try to minimize it. Pat drop me a line if you want me to cool it.

katkison: Thanks for the info. Sounds like the M can be had as quickly as a built to order 330.

jinglejill: I have been relatively unimpressed with the Houston dealers and like katkison I loathe the drive up to BMW North although I have heard some positive things about them. My E36 325 is from John Roberts in Austin.

soverypoor: I am not really sure what optionality means. What a story about your wife and the M roadster. I can't blame her though. I think it is pretty cool that she craves performance like you. My wife could care less about these kind of things. She doesn't really understand my constant rumination about the BMW, but she puts up with it. I may end up putting my purchase off for a while so that I can go with the M3 (although this changes daily as I read the debate on the board). The only benefit financially from buying the higher performance car is that it may have greater longevity than the 330. In 9 years when everyone's 2012 325i has 350HP and goes 0-60 in 5.3 seconds a 2003 M3 might still be able to keep up and satisfy the owner. What does everyone think? Is this reasonable? In my mind a reasonable lifetime for a new 330 might be 8 years, but I justify the M3 with a possible 10 year life.

nyccarguy · July 2002

dave330i lately?

Crevels · July 2002

Kominsky / 1pierce - thanks for the information. Looks like I'll be trying to setup a date for a test drive in a CPO 5-speed sedan. I'll remember to check the seat height.

As for wheels/tires, any suggestions on the best place to get them? I really like the clean look of the standard 5-spoke wheels that come with with 325Ci (Style 43), and would rather get them than something aftermarket.

1pierce · July 2002

I don't think I've ever heard of a car lifetime described as relative performance vs newer models. I can see longevity relative to visual appearance, or new technology, but viable performance,...not convinced with regard to 330i and M3. My feeling is that if a car satisfies (even thrills) you today, why would you be less satisfied just because somebody else has more HP or performance 8 years from now(assuming you don't drive their car from time to time and experience the difference)?

Personally, unless you race it, I don't think you'll outgrow a 2002 330i in terms of performance satisfaction. And, the idea that you would EVER outgrow a 2002 M3 is pretty far fetched.

I'm a fan of more horsepower,...to a point. I think the technology to make engines more powerful is growing far faster than the ability of the average driver to control, utilize, and appreciate that power. A 1984 Corvette had only 190 base HP. When I drove one in 1984, I felt like it was the fastest thing on the road. My '99 Maxima has 190 HP in a nearly 10 year old design, and I still think the engine power is more than adequate. (I'm trading it because it's boring, not because it under-performs).

I didn't mean to rant, its your decision. If your heart wants an M3, you shouldn't have to justify it with tortured logic about performance longevity.

1pierce · July 2002

I think last year's (2001) 17" 325i SP wheels were the nicest BMW wheels ever. This is my opinion, of course.

I'd see if the dealer will sell you those standard wheels if you like them, and make an even trade (he just might). He'll probably have to order them, though - I doubt he'll just have a set sitting around.

Incidentally, the 1999 and 2000 323i SP came with only 16" wheels. And nobody complained about performance. I say this because like HP, I think wheel size has gotten grossly out of proportion to the level of performance that most drivers can appreciate.

brave1heart · July 2002

Most people won't come close to using the full potential of a 260-HP engine that propels a car 0-60 in 6 sec and 0-100 in 15-and change. And if they did, the police and insurance companies will make sure they don't get a chance to do it often. People that track their cars regularly know that it is mostly about driving skill. Suspension comes next. HP is a pretty low priority. More powerful engines cost money and most consumers will refuse to pay a premium for something they don't use. The acceleration numbers above will not be obsolete in 10 years.

Anyone going to the CCA driving school at the Glen in upstate New York this month?

ttdude · July 2002

I'm considering purchasing a 2002 330xi. It is a little surprising to me that these don't come with an alarm. However, I do think that it really should have one. I'm just wondering what opinions are of the BMW alarm versus other aftermarket alarms?

Thanks

kominsky · July 2002

"Anyone going to the driving school at the Glen in upstate New York this month?"

I was supposed to, but we recently learned that my kids go back to school on the 30th (that's a Friday with Monday being a holiday... go figure!) and my wife thought if I was taking their last two days of summer vacation off it would be better to spend the time with them. So it looks like I'm gonna be going horseback riding in the Pocono's instead. I haven't been on a horse in about 20 years... hopefully they're air conditioned these days. :-)

squeakydeke · July 2002

On the front page of today's WSJ, there is an article on third-world factories that are building cars for sales in developed nations. It mentions the BMW plant in Rosslyn, South Africa and how the quality is on par with the German plants. BMW also gains a significant price advantage in exporting these cars to the US because of lower tariffs to encourage trade with African nations. A lot of these plants in Brazil, China and South Africa were built for anticipated growth in these markets that never materialized. So now, to keep these plants from becoming white elephants, they are working on improving quality so the cars will be competitive in developed markets.

On a different subject, I just got back from driving around the Colorado rockies. All I could think of was how much fun the drive from Leadville to Aspen would have been in an E46. It would have been the ultimate test drive. Wasn't quite as much fun in a rental Hyundai Sonata. It wasn't too bad, until it started losing power and the Check Engine light came on halfway up Vail Pass on I-70. The light went out on its own later in the drive and everything seemed fine after that. I was even a nice guy and checked the oil every morning. I didn't want to be stranded. Good thing it has a nice long warranty. The poor guy that buys it from Hertz is going to need it.

clk320stolen · July 2002

Need help. My '99 CLK320 Cabriolet was stolen from valet attendant at gunpoint and I am looking to replace it. Must have convertible and need trunk space for 2 sets of golf clubs and couple of small pieces of luggage. Considering replacing with BMW 330Ci, but can't get past the different way the BMW 330Ci holds value over first 3 years compared to Mercedes 320CLK. The '99 Mercedes is still retailing at near original sales price and the 2001 BMW has lost quite a bit in depreciation. Can anyone give a logical explanation? I know there is a difference in ride between the two. I also know the BMW is rated better by all the experts. I replaced Mercedes M320 with BMW X5 this spring and the BMW is head and shoulders better, but just can't get past the differences in how they hold value. Any ideas?

brave1heart · July 2002

I am afraid you can only get 225 air-conditioned horses in the barn but you can't get them one at a time ;o)

I went to sign up this morning but I was disappointed to find out that it's sold out. I signed up for the NHIS Sept. 6 school instead. If you have not yet cancelled your registration, I'll be happy to buy it from you.

clk320stolen · July 2002

Need help. My '99 CLK320 Cabriolet was stolen from valet attendant at gunpoint and I am looking to replace it. Must have convertible and need trunk space for 2 sets of golf clubs and couple of small pieces of luggage. Considering replacing with BMW 330Ci, but can't get past the different way the BMW 330Ci holds value over first 3 years compared to Mercedes 320CLK. The '99 Mercedes is still retailing at near original sales price and the 2001 BMW has lost quite a bit in depreciation. Can anyone give a logical explanation? I know there is a difference in ride between the two. I also know the BMW is rated better by all the experts. I replaced Mercedes M320 with BMW X5 this spring and the BMW is head and shoulders better, but just can't get past the differences in how they hold value. Any ideas?

nyccarguy · July 2002

I'm sorry your car got stolen from a valet like that. At least he was smart enough to give up the car and nobody got hurt. Where do you live anyway?

The MB CLK-Class (esp. cabriolets) is somewhat of a limited production car compared to the BMW 330CiC. The CLK (esp. cabriolets) have been in high demand (many dealers still have wait lists) since their introduction. I know the CLK sold at and above MSRP for a while. I've heard the launch of the new CLK was delayed due to the fact that the factory had so many orders to fulfill for the current CLK Cabriolet. High demand/low(er) volume vehicles like the CLK Cabriolet will command a premium on the used car market. BMWs actually hold their value quite well. If you're so concerned with resale value, have you considered the option of leasing?

As far as the X5 vs. the ML320...enough said:)

kominsky · July 2002

I never got past the webpage application. So I didn't have an actual reservation. As a New Englander, do you have any knowledge about Skip Barber's schools at Lime Rock Park? I'm thinking that would make a nice Christmas present from the wife and she's been wanting to get up that way anyhow (she lived in one of the Havens {New? East? West?} for a few years).

mg330ci · July 2002

Previous M3 last production year: 1999
HP: 240, Torque: 236, 0-60: 5.6

2001 330 HP: 225, Torque: 214, 0-60: 5.9sec

Of course, the M3 was much lighter

Anyway, just an information bit for the board and leenelsonmd

(All values according to Edmunds)

locke2c · July 2002

Of course, the 95-99 M3 also made that rated 240HP at the back wheels.

-Colin

brave1heart · July 2002

Skip Barber is on top of my wish list for any event at which I might be honored with presents. I've read articles about it and I have a pretty good idea what they do at the school. One of my colleagues' dad just did it a couple of months ago. A vendor paid for his whole department of a dozen or so to get out there for a day, can you imagine? That's my kind of vendor!! At any rate, a day is ~ $500 and I think they also have 3-day advanced/racing school events that are closer to 2 grand. At the 1-day event, you start out with a long-wheelbase pickup on wet surface to get an idea of over/understeer and they drive little Dodge open wheel racing cars in the afternoon. Oh, they also do Vipers but I heard that the little Dodge was a lot more fun 'cause it's so much lighter and nimbler. I really hope I'll get to do this some time next year...

kominsky · July 2002

"Skip Barber is on top of my wish list for any event at which I might be honored with presents. "

Well, I'll ask her if you can go too, but my wife is kinda tight with a buck so I think I'll be lucky if she agrees to send even me. LOL!

brave1heart · July 2002

You still have it easy if it's just the money. Mine will keep nagging me for spending the money AND being away the whole day instead of spending time with the kid ;o)

leenelsonmd · July 2002

Keep on ranting. It sounds good.

You are right about justification and rationalizations. I think this applies to any purchase, including the decision about options on the 3 series. If you crave the option and can afford it then go for it. You will be happier in the end. I have to agree that it is unlikely I would ever develop a stale relationship with a 330.

HP: IMO we are reaching the wall on performance until a major paradigm shift occurs in transportation -- like computer controlled vehicles or the like. What is the difference in a street vehicle that goes 60mph in 6 seconds versus 5 seconds or even 4? Owning a Porsche GT2 is like window shopping without any money. You can almost never take advantage of its ability. I do not want to say that there is no advantage in being a little quicker, but does it really make that much difference? Each tenth of a second that you shave off below 5.5 seconds is going to cost you a fair amount of money and it is unlikely that the average driver like me will ever really appreciate it.

peachiebeemer · July 2002

Well I did decide to purchase the BMW 325i (2001)
I was concerned with the rear wheel drive and the Sport tires. I guess I will just have to purchase all season tires for the winter. We'll see! What is the online auction that you were mentioning? $500 doesn't see too bad. I checked prices around my area and it was right around $7-800 dollars. My winters aren't really bad, but, you never know around here. I live in Central lower Michigan.

ccotenj · August 2002

purchase SNOWS for winter... if you are gonna swap tires/wheels, you might as well do the "right" thing...

-Chris

locke2c · August 2002

there's a massive difference between all-seasons and any proper winter tire.

-Colin

jjsmitty69 · August 2002

This is probably a stupid question, but what is the TP mean on the stereo system? The owners manual does not explain it. If I press it it just puts an asterick next to it and flashes.

1pierce · August 2002

leenelson: I think you pay a major premium for every tenth of second you shave off of 7 seconds. Look at the cost difference between the 330 and the 325. You get a few more goodies, but you are mostly paying for the extra horses.

About rationalization: I only use it to assuage the wife. And boy does it take alot of it! Deep down I know that I could function with a car that costs $10,000 less. I am buying my Bimmer because I want it. I've always wanted it, and unless I buy it, I always will want it. It's cool. Its fun. And, everybody will care about it. The truth will set you freeeeeee!!!

Peachie: Here we go again - more hardcore advice for the average driver. While snow tires are better in deep snow than all-seasons, the all seasons will be better (looks, handling, noise, ride) every single day of winter that you don't have to drive in deep or packed-down snow, which as your e-mail suggests, is almost every day. Afterall, you don't live in Maine.

I'll bet 90% of the cars where you live drive on all-seasons. Based on where you live, get the all-seasons, don't sweat it, and stay home on the two days a year that you get deep snow - afterall you don't want to be out those days anyway - somebody going downhill in an SUV might slide into you!

And, get some BMW wheels to go with them. Do you really want to spoil the look of your Bimmer for 6 months a year with non-BMW wheels?

locke2c · August 2002

1pierce,

you call it "hardcore" advice, I call it rational thought.

wheel styling is subjective. you can get OE wheels or aftermarket wheels that will look fine or like crap to different people-- I don't particularly care for the current Sport wheel myself for example.

but I totally disagree with your logic about all season tires! winter tires will perform just fine for normal driving when the roads are clear of snow and ice. most of them will lay down & die when you drive hard on dry road, but that's true of an all-season as well when you compare to a proper summer tire. the point Chris and I were trying to make is that if you bother to have second wheels & tires for winter, you would be AMAZED at the different winter tires make over all-seasons; even dry-road biased models like a Bridgestone LM22 will stomp any all-season. Specialty tires like a Nokian Hakka 1 drive well enough in the dry and make a huge difference in the vehicle's usability and driver confidence in icy and deep snow conditions.

But nevermind, go back to writing off everything I say as "extreme". Stay with the flock...

-Colin

tcn2k · August 2002

I had the same question posted and know one seemed to respond to what TP was for on the cd player.

genie1 · August 2002

Have to agree with locke and ccotenj here. I could hardly be considered one of the "hardcore advice givers" here, but winter tires are the one thing I have an opinion on. (That and the polymer v/s wax debate)

If you are going to swap tires anyway, you might as well get the ones that are most appropriate for the season, i.e. winter tires for the ice, sleet, rain, snow, slush and lower temperatures.

Get the alloy wheels for looks if you need to but the winter tires are great for getting around - I got them 'cause I didn't want to be stranded anywhere.

530bmw · August 2002

Normally, that what it is. A CD player with feature that allow you to reprogram a number of songs to play in any order that you want. I hope this is what you have.

vkwheels · August 2002

i'll bite --what is your view on the subject of waxes?

div2 · August 2002

I agree as well; but then, what do I know? My wife's E39 sled wears Artic Alpins in the winter months and handling is little changed-if at all-from the OEM Michelin all-seasons. When the a/s tires wear out(75,000 miles and still going-drat!) I'll move up to some dedicated summer tires for the other nine months of the year. "Hardcore" or not, it is a supreme waste of time and effort to fit all seasons as your dedicated winter tires.

jpierce26 · August 2002

Hi All:

I was wondering if anyone knew whether it would be worth waiting for the 2003 or just buy the 2002 now? Is there any design changes in the 2003?

When will the 2003's be available?

Wondering in New England.

Jeff

mg330ci · August 2002

My silly advice is:

If this is not your first year ever behind a steering wheel, and if, you have not moved to a different geographic area since last winter, then:

Continue doing exactly what you have done in the past.

A. If your previous car was able to handle winter in your geographic area using all season tires, then use all season tires in the bimmer.

B. If your previous car required snow tires to be able to survive the winter, then, you will need winter tires in the Bimmer as well.

Although RWD, the DSC and TC will keep you secure on the road if you don't abuse it.

genie1 · August 2002

mg330ci: IIRC, peachie has summer tires on the bimmer, so some form of winter appropriate rubber is necessary. All-seasons would be a half-measure.

vkwheels: My first attempts at cleaning and protecting the surface of my black car was with wax (Meguiars). I did the whole process - glaze, polish, whatever was recommended bu the manufacturer.

After several hours of elbow grease - Meguiar's left the car looking and feeling like a well oiled metal sheet - which attracted a fine layer of dust that stuck to the surface. Maybe I used too much, and it was too hot that week, but overall I was not pleased with the results of all that effort.

So I bit the bullet and ordered Zaino. Did that whole process over a long weekend. It took forever between applications, but I have to say, the consequent applications got easier and quicker. (There's also an accelerator now so there is no waiting between applications anymore) Results: the car is not sticky at all. So dust doesn't stick to the surface. Tar, bug guts, road salt and grime wash off easily without much scrubbing. The car has a deep glossy shine that stays till it rains.

Shipo recommends Klasse which is also a polymer. It is not as time consuming as Zaino is initialy. I would probably switch to Klasse when my Zaino is finished, but I'll probably have a new car by then - a little goes a long way with this stuff.

So my take on polymer v/s wax: polymer all the way - much less elbow grease required for a deep glossy shine.

locke2c · August 2002

mg330,

Maybe. Real winter tires transformed my ex-wife's Miata from a 9 month vehicle into something we wouldn't be afraid to use any day there wasn't >6" snow on the ground. That's rare around me, ice is far more common and it handled that with aplomb.

Electronic aids can't have near the effect that proper tires do. I think if you've never tried winter tires you should at some point just to see what you're missing. It's not that you can't "survive" without them.

-Colin

1pierce · August 2002

I don't mean to write off what others say as "extreme". But, there is a school of thought on this site that goes something like this:

"Automatic and FWD are for wimps, Lexus lovers, and people who don't know how to drive. Everybody should have RWD, the stiffest suspension offered, and HP tires - and if you live where it snows, get Blizzaks on steel rims from Tire Rack for winter because it doesn't matter what the car looks or rides like - ITS THE 6 MONTHS OF PURE PERFORMANCE THAT COUNTS, STUPID."

When you get relatively little snow and ice, why not just "survive" on those few days a year when that happens, and have a better performing (and looking) tire every other day of winter? My brother has Blizzaks (SP?) on his 323 SP. I've driven it with the Blizzaks, and you can't tell me they don't compromise handling and ride noise from all seasons (I'm talking good performance all-seasons, not "Camry tires"). Then again, for somebody who wants to drive on HP Summer tires, those qualities might not be important.

I just can't understand how guys who are used to the performance of summer HP tires can live with SO MUCH compromise (of dedicated snows) for nearly half the year? And if there "isn't that much performance loss with snows", then imagine how much less there would be with a good set of all-seasons in winter.

Finally, if you live where there is the potential for deep snow 7-8 months a year(Buffalo, Maine, Denver, etc.), of course, get snow tires. But, that said, if I lived in that climate, I'd have AWD, and would seriously question whether a BMW was the right car for my real world lifestyle.

div2 · August 2002

Some people buy BMWs to drive- others buy them to wear...

div2 · August 2002

You know, you are right about one thing; FWD IS a crutch for people who don't know how to drive. In fact, FWD has accomplished a feat that I thought was impossible- it has made the typical US driver even more inept. As an example, I've seen numerous TH posts from incompetent vehicle operators(calling these bozos "drivers" gives them way too much credit)who state that they must have FWD or AWD because they "often have to drive in the rain." If someone needs FWD THAT bad they really should do us all a favor and start using public transit...

ccotenj · August 2002

although i DO have a nice set of bmw basketweaves for my blizzaks...

got 'em relatively cheap on the net...

well, of course the blizzaks don't perform like the pole positions... that's not the point... the point is, is that the blizzaks perform virtually as well on the dry stuff, and blow the a/s away in the mucky stuff... keep in mind also that winter tires aren't just winter tires because they handle snow... the compound they are made of is made to work better at lower temperatures... so when it's cold (and i believe peachy is from michigan? i KNOW it gets cold there, and i'd bet they get as much snow as maine) the winter tires have that advantages over the a/s as well... so the argument of "the a/s are better on the dry roads you drive on 90% of the time in the winter, so get those" doesn't hold water...

i drove my 3er 140 miles every day for work for 2 winters... the blizzaks never let me down... yea, they make noise... guess what? so do the pp's... c'est la vie...

as far as the "better looking" argument... my response to that remains the same... would you rather stay on the road, or would you rather have the tow truck guy complement you on your nice wheels/tires as he pulls you out of the ditch?

-Chris

ps. div - those tars ain't worn out yet? sheesh... why don't you autocross that thing 2 or 3 times and finish them off????

div2 · August 2002

Maybe we should start the Fernando Bimmer Wearers Club-FBWC. Our motto: "It is better to look good than to drive good..."

mschukar · August 2002

As a 325i w/SP owner (no winter driving yet) and one who has dedicated winter tires for my wife's Volvo, I have to agree that you want winter tires if you are going to swap anyway and you live in the midwest. I didn't put the winter tires on the Volvo last year because we didn't get any real snow until March. I was slip sliding around with the all season's during a late season snow.

As far as performance, I feel the dry performance is more than made up for by the mucky performance. In other words, you'll have more fun in the snow because you can drive more aggressively and with more control.

As for rims, I'm not going to spend $300 for BMW rims when they're going to see tons of salt and sliding into a curb could trash them. I may upgrade to something better than steel rims, but I'm not that concerned with looks during the winter.

It's pretty easy to justify winter tires since one insurance claim pays for them. I'm amazed at how many people have AWD/4WD without buying winter tires. What's the purpose of better acceleration in slippery conditions when you can't stop or maneuver any better? More auto marketing I guess :-)

-murray

huntzinger · August 2002

I just can't understand how guys who are used to the performance of summer HP tires can live with SO MUCH compromise (of dedicated snows) ...

Consider the alternative: using HP tires for summer and All-Seasons in winter: does this really make any sense? No.

The best performance tire is a function of the environment its going to be driven in. The major environmental factors are temperature and water (rain, snow or ice). The former strongly influences the tire's compound chemistry and the type & amount of the latter influences the tread design.

For example, the true ultimate summer dry tire is a slick, but even if they were legal, very few of us would street such a car, because their horrible drop-off in performance in the rain.

There's really only two questions. The first if if you want a one set of "Jack of All Trades (and Master of None)" tires, or if you're willing to inventory multiple tire sets and thus, be more able to optimize them for different conditions.

The second part is what is it that you're going to optimize for. This can either be towards something, or AWAY from something (such as minimized weaknesses). For example, for a winter tire, you can bias towards optimizing its performance under cold-but-dry conditions, or you can take the "least vulnerable" approach and look towards making sure you don't have a very bad tire for the worst case conditions.

Personally, my choice for a winter tire is whatever performs best under what mschukar calls "Mucky conditions".

FWIW, awhile back, I had a car that I had two sets of tires set up for. The one set was winter snows. The other were summer HP rains. The basis of the seemingly odd summer tire choice was because on dry summer days, I'd drive an entirely different car. YMMV.

-hh

PS: Finally started to get some photo's from my Germany trip from last month scanned in. Here's Neuschwanstein, sized to be a nice Desktop Wallpaper; Enjoy.

brave1heart · August 2002

All this snow tire talk in the middle of summer - I hope it's helping you all cool off in this heat

) To me, snow tires are like anything else - buy them if you want them and/or need them - it all depends on your particular circumstances and preferences. I am getting a set this year because we moved to the suburbs and I have to drive the back roads to get home. One end of our street is so steep that I'd be curious to find out if even the Quattro will make it. The other end is about half the grade but I seriously doubt that even all-seasons will be sufficient if you have to get going from a standstill with my 325i. So you don't need to move to a different region for your needs to change. The question for me this year is not whether to get snow tires but which ones to get. I've narrowed it to the Dunlop M2's or the Blizzak LM's. I am moving a size down to 16" and I will be mounting them on Mille Miglia Spider alloys. Has anyone had experience with both types of tires? My understanding is that the Blizzak is a better snow tire but the M2 will ride better in the dry, is this correct?

mg330ci · August 2002

Here it goes again:

If you lived in city X for the past 5 years, and you required snow tires to survive the winter, THEN, get snow tires for your BMW.

If you have survived winter on any previous car in the SAME city using all season tires, THEN all season tires is all you need.

Summer tires, as the name implies, are not designed for snow, and I would not drive a car with summer tires even with a 1/4 inch of snow on the ground.

Finally, if this is your first car, or you just completed drivers school, or you just moved from Florida to Michigan, then, the above does not apply.

mschukar · August 2002

If you have survived winter on any previous car in the SAME city using all season tires, THEN all season tires is all you need.

To me, it's not about whether I can get by or not, but rather am I and my family safer with winter tires? The answer, I believe, is a definate YES. As I said before, one deductable payment pays for them and 2 hours a year to change them. For Wisconsin, it's a no brainer even though I could "survive" with all seasons.

OTOH, everyone can "survive" the summer months with all seasons, so why would anyone have summer tires, according to your logic?

-murray

postoak · August 2002

Darn, I wish I could get in on this argument!

huntzinger - did you hike up past the bridge to get that photo?

uter · August 2002

European delivery was outstanding.
Now, waiting, waiting, waiting for my wagon.

325xit
5-spd
Steel blue with natural brown interior
SP/PP/CWP/HK/Xenon/Nav

So very far away...

mg330ci · August 2002

Because your hormones wants you to accelerate faster, brake faster and corner faster, and summer tires will provide you with that (or allow you to reach further limits).

Is anybody going to be safer in theory driving with winter tires if it snows in the area? Yes, I agree with you.

Do you need snow tires? well, where I live, you can get away with all seasons

orkwis · August 2002

I'm sure I'm not "hardcore" enough for this debate, but I do see a flaw in some of the arguments. I don't think the "you'll be safer with snows" makes any real sense, provided that all seasons can get you from point A to B. That's because if you are a safe drive you will know the limits of you car and you won't push past them. I drove home last winter on a total sheet of ice at between 5 and 10 mph (took me 3 hours for a 1/2 hour commute) because I knew that was all my SUV could handle. The real danger you have is from other drivers, and that really won't change much no matter what your car can do. The only argument in my book is that you can drive a little harder/faster while staying in control. You might argue that it can get you away from someone hurtling 2.5 tons of uncontrolled steel toward you in a specific circumstance but it sounds to me more like justification. That said, I've only used my 4wd 4 times in 2 years here, so perhaps this opinion can be ignored.

john01 · August 2002

I have a set of M2s on 16 inch wheels for winter driving. I found it to be very quiet. I did not have a chance to test its snow driving characteristics, so can't comment on that. However, mine is H rated, but handled well, and even at sustained driving at 100+, I did not notice any more noise than the Contis. I only put on ~2,000 miles on it, so perhaps it will change over time.

BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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