I've read with much interest todays posts concerning price difference. Assuming a cash buyer buys either model at the same discount/over invoice, there will be $3500 odd premium, more if you factor in the (recently standard) extras the 330i has and sundries like silver headlight inserts (whoop-de-doo). Fact of the matter is that most people lease their cars and with the current lease money factor and residual value differences, the 330i ends up being with-in $50 a month more than a same spec or even less spec like no HK, on the 325. And at that point, I found it very easy to get my 330i on order.
On the earlier topic of AWD vs RWD, my personal feeling is that, while I'm "lucky" to live where the roads are mostly dry so I can get my preferred RWD setup, I would not hesitate to get an AWD 3 series if I lived somewhere that snow and rain conditions were frequent. The AWD feels every bit as pure BMW as the rear. Look at it from this perspective - you're missing out on irresponsible driving in those poor conditions where the AWD would be sensational.
kominksky i was referring to titanium finish trim on the foglight panels. both armrest and upgraded interior lighting are part of the 325 premium package but standard on the 330i. it appears the auto climate control is now std on 325? OK but I'll trade you for one i forgot. In addition to the M wheels on the 330 SP it has 245s on the rear vs 225s all around on the 325i. And as someone (shipo?) pointed out earlier when you use invoice the variance narrows. So I still think its factual. Agree that 325 is a nice car but I would worry about those Accords in my rear view mirror if what I'm reading is true??
In an earlier post I showed that the difference in price between the 325 and 330 to be about 3800. This was based on very low estimates for the unpriceable items which are standard on the 330. This came out to about $93 per HP if you want to put it in those terms. I see that some posters feel that it is worth spending $100 per HP to get halfway to the HP difference between 184 and 225. Why not get a standard car with the extra HP and other extras to begin with?
My 330i on a lease actually costs me LESS than a comparable equipped 325. The residual difference of 4% at the time is equal to a discount of that amount from the price when you are leasing. That means that a 330 with MSRP of $35,000 costs $1,400 less than a comparable equipped 325 right out of the chute. The money factor was .0021 of the 330 with .0030 on the 325. This is about $50 a month on the payment. Over 36 months this totals another $1,800. Also, if you get the fairly typical $1,500 over invoice, the difference becomes NIL between the two cars.
With a $2,500 down payment, my payments are $340 a month on a 330 with MSRP of $36,585. This is a reduction of $54 from $394 because I made 9 extra security deposits. Did I do badly? Did you get this on your 325?
On my 2nd 330 I had a trade in valued at $4,876, my payments are $299.72 on an MSRP of $39,485. This is also with 9 extra security deposits totaling $2,700. My total for 2 cars of $5,850 in refundable security deposits are reducing my payments by a total of $3,972 over 3 years. How does this 67.9% return compare to some of the investment concepts presented recently? I do trust BMW with my money.
I am happy to share every detail of the above with anyone who wants to know. Just to recap, with $7,376 down my payments for TWO 330's are $639.72.
kominsky, you are a gentleman. You can have my 325i any day you'd like. And not just on a mountain road, ANY road.
macdude44 - You sound like an insecure 22-yr old accountant right out of college. I was there 10 years ago and I remember calculating percentage HP gain per percentage dollar increase too. We all go through stages and you'll catch up. There is a lot more to a car than HP, try to look beyond that. I know it wasn't easy for me to do that 10 years ago.
ross66 - BMWNA doesn't make it easy to figure out the price difference, that's how they get you. You obviously were too lazy to check the numbers that I told you about twice and since I work harder and am a lot more stubborn, I did it your way as well. Here are the numbers from BMWNA (all MSRP and 325i with options added to approximate the 330i):
330i MSRP $36,310 Includes Sport Package - $1,200 and destination charge
325i MSRP $31,430 Includes Sport Package - $1,400 Power front seats with driver memory - $945 On-board computer - $300 Harman Kardon premium sound system - $675 and destination charge
Difference:$4,880 - close enough to yours but see if you can improve your algebra knowledge
Let's look at the rest of the differences: fog lights and automatic climate control system are standard on the 325i, as is cruise control; front center armrest is around $130; Other differences: titanium headlight surrounds, titanium front grille and chrome exhaust tail pipes, aluminum ringed gauges in cockpit, upgraded interior lighting, aluminum interior trim - how much is this gimicky shiny stuff worth, maybe $300? That's 300+130=$430. Subtract that from 4,880 and you get $4,450 for the engine. Oh, OK, I have not counted the fake M BADGING - $50 you say?
Objective Answer: $4,400 for the engine ALONE
End of objective discussion
Subjective discussion: For me personally, I do NOT want the power front seats with driver memory - $945. I like to be able to move the seat around fast. Comes very handy when cleaning the car and you need to move the seat and even when you are switching drivers. I'll get power seats when I'm 70 years old. I don't want the armrest either beacuse it gets in my way when switching gears, especially switching fast. I always keep both hands on the wheel and I have no use for the armrest anyhow. Gimicky shiny stuff: some of it's fine but I would not pay to get it. Fake M badging? Puuulease. And I do like the Star 44 wheels that are on the 325i SP better than any other 3-series. Actually better than any other wheels except for the Avus style wheels from the Audi S8 and S4.
So here's my personal difference: 4,880 was the standard difference I calculated above +945 power seats +130 armrest +300 gimicky shiny stuff +50 fake M badging --- $6,305 - the money I would have to pay to get the engine which is the only thing I'd really like to have from the 330i that I do not have in the 325i. Oh, and 5% or more sales tax on $6,305, that would be about $315 for a total difference of $6,620.
Please, people, the 330i is a great car but I would not pay that premium over the 325i to get it or be jealous of the people that do. Enjoy it, whatever Bimmer you are driving )
brave1heart, you didnt count the 17" wheels and larger brakes. However, just the extra HP energy combined with the characteristics of this car make even a $5,00 difference well worthwhile. If you can't afford a 330, just say so.
Braveheart.......I'm a 43 year old insecure accountant....not 23. And yes, a 22% increase in power is the difference between night and day when it comes to these two cars. The 325 is just plain sluggish compared to the 330 and compared to a great deal of the autos available today. Power isn't everything, I agree, but 184 horses with thermostat problems, auxilary fan problems, door rattles, light steering, piss-poor support from the national distibutor and dealers who threaten lousy service if you don't buy from them is hardly a car worthy of "the ultimate driving machine".
Spend the extra 5 grand and at least get a decent boost to go along with all the hassles.
I'd be about 1-2% poorer if I paid for it in cash and unfortunately our DINK for years income is not sufficient because I drink all of it off every Friday night when I get my paycheck. Listen, you may have millions in your bank account and liquid too. That doesn't mean you have to rush and get a bigger car than what makes you happy. Figure out how much car you need to be happy at a minimum and go with that. I guess that makes me cheap now. Damn...next?
PS: I added stuff on the wheels in my Summary - they all happen to be 17" and I like Star 44 best. You have a point about the brakes but I'd say it's a tradeoff because you can't put 16" snows with those if you wanted to.
For the record I enjoy reading your posts, Braveheart and admire your assistance you give to newbies. I've been reading Bimmer.org posts too long and have developed a contentious attitude. No disrespect intended. Just lose the blue face paint though, please!
I am not rich and I look to get the most for every dollar I spend hoping that I can someday become rich. In fact, leasing 2 BMW's is an economy move. I am giving up a Z3 and Jag S-Type to save money. Read my post #4157 carefully.
You are seemingly obsessed with HP as shown by your interest in Dinan products. Why do you denigrate the 330 with it's 41 more than your 325? It sounds a lot like regret or remorse to me.
I should go to bed but bravehearts desire to always be right keeps me up.
So let me understand BMW engineers add shiny gimmicky items to the 330 to make it look more tacky than a 325? And the almighty braveheart values it at $300? BMW supplying M wheels but they are fake?
I do have a life and don't have time to spend all day and night to post on this board so i won't be doing any more analysis plenty of other posts today convince me that i'm closer to the truth than you. do you work? oh yeah you install peoplesoft (does your boss know you read this board all day and come up with convoluted calculations?) i'd have you on the street quickly. there are people even IT people who will give you an honest days work. BTW I didn't see any algebra in the math here just addition and subtraction, but now you're up to a $6300 difference? seems like your standing alone here.
For me the 325i vs 330i argument is moot. Average highway traffic speed in my area is about 35 mph and 0 - 35 mph average acceleration is about 10 seconds. Consequently, the power debate isn't applicable, and maybe steptronic vs. manual is the primary issue. Regardless, the 3 series is an excellent automobile.
The Honda of Europe 99-00 Accord Type R posts a 7.1 zero to sixty, the quickest Accord I'm aware of. Now we give up, which Accord does less than 7.0 to sixty.
Fair enough, it's been a long day for me fighting you guys. You all sure pushed my buttons pretty well tonight. Good night, I am exhausted and need some serious rest.
I am not rich and I look to get the most for every dollar I spend hoping that I can someday become rich. In fact, leasing 2 BMW's is an economy move. I am giving up a Z3 and Jag S-Type to save money. Read my post #4157 carefully.
You are seemingly obsessed with HP as shown by your interest in Dinan products. Why do you denigrate the 330 with it's 41 more than your 325? It sounds a lot like regret or remorse to me.
I've read alot of posts on this and other boards about a 1200 mile break-in period. The dealers I've spoken with tell me there is no break-in period. One said you can take it to 100mph off the showroom floor. What does the manual say?Thinking of getting a 2001 330i, can't beat the lease deal they are offering.
I am not rich and I look to get the most for every dollar I spend hoping that I can someday become rich. In fact, leasing 2 BMW's is an economy move. I am giving up a Z3 and Jag S-Type to save money. Read my post #4157 carefully.
You are seemingly obsessed with HP as shown by your interest in Dinan products. Why do you denigrate the 330 with it's 41 more than your 325? It sounds a lot like regret or remorse to me.
If my memory serves me correctly, the owners manual says to keep the RPM's below 4500 for the first 1200 miles, and also not to exceed 100 MPH within that time. )
In April, four magazines came out with ratings for sport sedans. All four of them picked the BMW 330i as the best car. (One dropped it to 2nd after allowing for the IS300 low price). With the closeness of these evaluations, the differences in performance of the 325 would have relegated it to a lower finish in the ratings. It is interesting to see numerous posts by 325 fans citing the wins of the 330 and claiming superiority for their cars based on them. The 325 would have finished behind the IS300 in every rating and behind others in some ratings.
I am buying a 330xi (for those who don't already know this) but I have found myself rooting for Braveheart reading the above posts. Weird, huh?
I guess people simply saying, "why not admit you just can't afford the 330?" puts me off. Probably puts off every other reader too.
That said, I can tell you this story. When I was deciding what car to buy, I had pretty nearly decided on a 325xi. My bro in law and I were talking about it, and he said, "that's a serious car, how many horses in there?"
I said, "184".
He said, "wow, that's less than in my Accord."
I think the 325 was FINISHED in my mind from that point on. I guess that makes me immature, but I can live with that.
I posted a couple REALLY funny posts yesterday that were MILDLY off color. They contained NO profanity, and anything I said would EASILY have passed any TV or radio censor's approval.
And these posts have been removed by our school-marm in residence. I find this UTTERLY ridiculous.
Here we are, a community full of adults, mainly men, and I feel like there is some sunday school teacher standing in the corner, looking down her nose through her bifocals at me, telling me to watch what I say.
Reading some 330 proponents' posts about "buyer's remorse", I must say, one of the reasons I ordered the 330 rather than the 325 was so I wouldn't ever look at a 330 and say, "yeah, that's the same as my car, EXCEPT..."
I know myself. Had I gotten a 325, I would have coveted every 330 I saw for years, and it would have eaten at me. I know that not everyone is petty like this, so please don't think I am saying that Braveheart or anyone else is jealous or remorseful. But I would have been.
Knowing this, the few grand extra is not a lot to pay for peace of mind and satisfaction. Incidentally, I figure on the difference between the 325 and the 330 to be about $4K when you compare apples to apples.
Also, here's a lesson I learned from buying my house two and a half years ago: don't make your consumption decisions based on your budget today, make it based on your budget over the next X years. The 330 is a little bit of a stretch for me today (I am only putting $15K down), but it leaves me room to "grow into it" over the next few years as my income grows.
In contrast, my wife and I bought a house we could easily afford 2 1/2 years ago, and we are already looking to trade up. I didn't want to go through that with this car.
I've been pondering this lately as I decide between the 325i, 330i, or IS300 (2002 manual). Other factors that were not mentioned:
- the resale value will likely be higher as a percentage for the 330 as HP figures creep upward for all cars. In 5 years, the Accord may have the HP of today's 325. Look at the upcoming Altima and the Impreza WRX. I think the manual IS300 and the new A4 will beat the 325 in many comparisons next year.
- the 330 has slightly better gas mpg figures than the 325 (the IS300 sucks gas).
Given these additional factors, I'm still not sure which I will get. I will drive them back to back to compare but it's hard to punch them hard with a salesman sitting next to you.
Agree that "admit you can't afford a 330i" is a crass statement. just trying to get braveheart's blood pressure up.
know you're rooting for braveheart bc we all seem to know him personally given all his posts. Most of his posts are very useful/insightful but I just went over the edge with his continued promotion of the idea that 330i is overpriced, only difference is the engine and people who got the 330 overpaid. braveheart also pretty quickly crossed the line into personal insults.
Whenever I compare cars,I prefer the smaller engine. Here's my reasoning-For aggressive driving,the power is fun,sure. But what attracts me to these premium cars is the quality and solidity. Even though they are all sporting sedans,they are also nice to just serenely cruise in. If I were to consider stepping up from a 325,I would much rather go to a 525-I almost bought one a few months ago. I don't need the larger back seat,but the longer wheelbase gives a much nicer ride,which I think shows where my head is at with these cars. And rather than go up to a 530,I'd buy a Mercedes E320.And I admit that a car like the BMW 540 really mystifies me. To put so much money into engine and suspension.... But to negate all this rambling,I had a chance to drive a new 740i sport,and I was truly astounded.I found myself speeding down the road,cackling like a maniac. But I think I would not so emphasis power at purchase time.
...and what happens? 80 posts, a flame war come and almost gone, and some very nice 325 vs 330 comparisons.
I bought a 330i mainly because that's what I first test drove. The 325i manual that the dealer had was out with another customer at the time and he asked if I wanted to try out the 330 while I was waiting.
I'm glad I did.
Once I got back with the 330 then test drove the 325. The 325 was almost as great a car as the 330i, but it seemed to be a big letdown without those extra ponies.
I knew that I'd always be qustioning my decision if I went with a 325, so I ordered the 330. End of story.
I got the 330i for the same reasons denright mentioned -- did not want to ever look at one and say "what if..." I still find myself looking at SP 330i's and wondering "what if" -- that's how anal I am. But when leasing, choosing the 330 over the 325 was a no-brainer -- lobs has great posts explaining why (although his deals are truly astounding). Even before BMWFS supported the MF, the 330 closed the pricing gap with higher residuals (a few percent higher at the time, I believe).
Lobs -- could you send me some further details around your agreement(s) for future reference? I would have considered the multiple sec deposit option had I known about its existence. Why is this not broadly shared across dealers? What risks are involved -- what situations might arise that would not guarantee the return of the sec deposits at the end of the lease? Does GAP insurance cover the sec deposits, too? Please respons directly to me at burr@one.net. Much appreciated.
It seems to me that there's some rationalization going on on both sides. But I can't get past the fact that for me to get a 330i equipped the way I would get a 325i costs $5700 more -- and I had forgotten about the extra sales tax that Brave1heart mentioned -- that runs up the difference to $6056. It doesn't matter to me that I am getting some extra items thrown in with the 330i -- it is an actual $6056 that I will have to come up with. Leasing arguments may be valid, but I'm not leasing.
As for power, well I'm currently driving a Miata with 116 hp. The 325i is faster! If you are going to be bothered by someone else saying they've got more hp than you do, then you better not stop with the 330i (but, yeah, don't get the 325i).
All that said, the person who said (2 or 3 hundred posts ago now!) that everyone looking at the 325i owed it to themselves to test drive the 330i has a good point, and I will. I will see if the car can "sell" me -- I doubt it, but who knows?
This 330 vs 325 argument epitomizes why we're loathed out there. It got down to we 330 owners are better than you 325'ers. It gets worse, leather owners look down on leatherette people, xenon people look down on halogen people, 17 inch tire guys pity 16 inchers.
What we "superior" 330 owners need to realize is that we're looked down upon by the 5-series owners who are in turn looked down upon by 7-series owners who are pitied by the S-Class Mercedes people who can't hold a handle to the Porsche 911 guys who are snubbed by the Z-9 boys who can't compete with the Ferrari folks.
Status, like it or not, is a big reason why many of us choose the BMW. Part of why we didn't buy the 325 is that we weren't comfortable purchasing the lowest priced car BMW has to offer. Kind of pathetic when you think about it. The old joke that unlike the porcupine, the pricks are on the inside of BMW's holds all-too-true. Just remember, there's always someone lifting their nose at us.
I haven't even taken possession of my coupe and I'm already turning into a jerk.
Your e-mail about my "remorse" kept coming back in my mind, maybe because it was reposted so many times in error by the system but most likely because there was some truth to what you said. You are right that I want the extra power - I mentioned just a couple of days ago that I'd be lying if I said I didn't want 20 extra ponies for the 325. And yes, I am salivating at the thought of getting those and more through Dinan. You have been following the board for a while and you know that although I like the luxury aspect of the 3-series, I am interested mostly in performance (80% sport / 20% luxury in the luxury sport sedan equation). BMWNA shoves down your 330 throat a lot of stuff that I don't want or at least I don't want to pay for (power seats, armrest, aluminum/chrome trim, you name it). Paying for things you don't want or need is not a way to get rich in life. Does this explain my thinking process to you better? Choosing the 330 over the 325 in a lease deal is a no-brainer but that is because BMW still has a promotion on the 330 lease deal. We should stick to comparing the PRICE, not the monthly lease payment.
Your closing comments form last night were a punch below the belt. I put in the effort to do research and put together a summary. I kept the summary factual and objective and at the end I expressed how the numbers would look from my perspective. You showed zero appreciation for the work I did and threw in a below-the-belt instead. You sound like a sorry loser who has the emotional intelligence of a two-year old. You won't get very far in life if you lose the lesson every time you lose.
If anyone is interested in my entertaining discussion with Pat Re. "puritanical rules" please send me an e-mail. I was going to copy those of you that we around at "D-day" but very few of you have their e-mail addresses posted.
C&D staff have mentioned on numerous occasions that their preferred 3-series model is the 325i. I can find out the exact issues and articles this weekend if you are more interested in their opinion. They chose it not because it is a better car than the 330 - I'm far from that thought - but because the 325 was far more worth the money.
This board seems to have taken a bad turn. Does it really matter why anybody here made his/her choice on which BMW to buy? Some bought sedans and some coupes, some 325 and other 330. A few lucky people might even have a M in their garage. We all purchased what we wanted. Does it matter whether the decision was based on HP, price or the rotation of the earth. Be happy we all have the choices to make our own decisions. Personally the 325i was the right choice for me. Sure it is not the quickest car in my stable (my V-12 XKE wins) but I love driving the 325. Could of I afforded the 330 or even the M? Yes! For me the 325 was perfect. Can we please respect each others decisions? I'll get off my soap box now.
This 330 vs 325 argument epitomizes why we're loathed out there. It got down to we 330 owners are better than you 325'ers. It gets worse, leather owners look down on leatherette people, xenon people look down on halogen people, 17 inch tire guys pity 16 inchers.
What we "superior" 330 owners need to realize is that we're looked down upon by the 5-series owners who are in turn looked down upon by 7-series owners who are pitied by the S-Class Mercedes people who can't hold a handle to the Porsche 911 guys who are snubbed by the Z-9 boys who can't compete with the Ferrari folks.
Status, like it or not, is a big reason why many of us choose the BMW. Part of why we didn't buy the 325 is that we weren't comfortable purchasing the lowest priced car BMW has to offer. Kind of pathetic when you think about it. The old joke that unlike the porcupine, the pricks are on the inside of BMW's holds all-too-true. Just remember, there's always someone lifting their nose at us.
I haven't even taken possession of my coupe and I'm already turning into a jerk.
I never test drove the 330i, but the 330i seems to be as good a value for the extra ~$3800-$5700 or whatever has been sited here, I'm sure. The extra HP is nice to have, no doubt. I'm no expert on 0-60 times or how many ponies every car has. I only know that for the 184HP that the 325i had, the car accelerated enough for me...sluggish? I, repeat I, didn't think so. For only having 184 horsepower and 175 ft-lbs of torque, I was a bit surprised, even after driving the IS300 and TL Type-S. Heck (that's for the host), I'll be honest, I had a ceiling or budget, and the 330i that I'd want with the options I, repeat I, wanted wasn't under it. Period. If it had been, I'd definitely consider it, but then I'd consider other cars, too. The IS300 and TL Type-S had plenty of HP, but I just loved the way the 325i handled with a manual. It had me smiling the entire way during the test drive. In Dallas, the acceleration the 325i had was enough for me in traffic...I could care less who wants to butt heads with me on how many horses are under my hood. If I had a higher budget, yes, I would definitely consider. I know the differences in the 325i and 330i, but I will be driving a 325i...so what? I'm just thankful I had the budget I had at the time...otherwise, I 'd be still driving the '98 Camry I have now.
BTW, aaa330i, I just found out that it is being manufactured in South Africa....a rep called me last night that responded to my email. Oh, well.
thanks for your psychological analysis of me. i'm already very far in life but since you don't know me i'm sure thats hard for you to understand.
you are the one that wanted to jump from a factual discussion to insults and condescending statements. anyone can look through the thread and see that.
PAT - HELP braveheart1 has hurt my feelings wa wa wa...........
Okay. My two cents worth on this 325 vs. 330 debate. Buy what you want, what you can afford, and just plain what works for you. In their own rights, both cars are excellent.
Let people enjoy their cars. Instead of being contentious, we should be giving the "THUMBS UP" to each other on the road. I know that when I eventually get to drive my 325Ci and pull up next to a 330, I'll smile and give the nod of approval. If the guy looks at me with disdain/condescension, then I'll know he bought his car for all the wrong reasons. If he's able to look at me as a brother, then I'll know he's just like me--a car enthusiast and a BMW lover.
Other than Brave1heart, nobody comes up with that large a difference in price. I have detailed every item in some of my posts and was conservative in valuing the unpriceable items. I come up with $3,800 - $4,100 difference or about $100 per HP. In his last prices post, brave overstated the 330i MSRP to arrive at his numbers. Just look it up.
If you REALLY want a performance 3er, get a 330. Stop rationalizing.
I was one of 2 posters to say "if you cant afford it, just say so" I apologize for going over the top with that. I really understand that people have their rationales which can be as good or better than mine.
Wow, you totally hit the nail on the head with your post about BMW drivers being hated for a reason.
That said, this REALLY is the car I want. I don't like bigger cars, so the 5 and 7 series are out. I hate Mercedes, simply because they are too gaudy and snobby for my blue-collar upbringing. I can't have a serious sports car because I have kids coming in the next year or two.
So the 330 really is the car for me right now, irrespective of price. Anyone looking down their nose at me is really missing the point.
All that said, want to know what my serious "if-I-wasn't-about-to-have-kids-and-money-was-no-object" dream car would be?
An M3 convertible.
So my 330xi really isn't all that far from the mark even in THOSE circumstances.
kominsky: I'd love to see the pictures you have of Topaz Blue BMWs. You can send them to peteandcara@yahoo.com
On the 325 vs 330 issue: "The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate" - John Ruskin
denright: Having a family certainly doesn't mean you have to get an automatic, but here's the way it works for me. On a Saturday afternoon when I've got nothing to do but drive, give me a stick. But there are circumstances where I find a manual to be a pain in the neck: Stop and go traffic, yound child strapped in her car seat asking for her bottle or her book or a snack, early morning commute with a cup of coffee in my hand, occassional cell phone conversation. None of these situations are unmanageable with a stick. But marriage and kids have made most of them much more common. My wife is from Long Island where stop and go traffic can be found in its most perfect form. Sleep deprivation (young children => sleep deprivation, for those of you without kids) means coffee is *much* more important than it ever was. Family logistics *require* a cell phone, at least in my family where we have a teen and a toddler. Is the convenience of automatic in these situations worth the sacrifice? For me, yes. For you, who knows? By the way: although kids require many sacrifices, they are wonderful. You know that feeling you got when you first laid eyes on your new BMW? Wait til you see your very own child for the first time.
were taken directly out of the BMWNA web site - I went through the hassle of building a 325i and a 330i. Prices include destination charge on both models, maybe that's why you think they are overstated.
Holy crap, I have 323i with an automatic, the only thing that keeps me from being a bottom feeder is the fact that I have leather and power seats. I guess if I feel the need to talk some serious smack I'll have to find a 318ti thread, then I can dish out the pain. About the 22 year old account comment from brave, my wife is a 22 year old CPA, she passed before she turned 21, funny thing was that she could sign off on audits but couldn't buy a drink. I am dreading the day that I will find her calculating horsepower per dollar spent on a BMW. Can't we just all get along. -Getz
I think that Brave1heart and I are at the opposite ends of the "Price Difference Spectrum" relative to this group at large. Having said that, I do NOT think that he has overstated the 330i price. He and I both have different needs/wants/desires that we are willing to pay for. I want leather seats, he does not, I need (see my post from yesterday) power seats, he cannot stand them, I like the wood trim, he thinks it is sort of cheesy looking, I can go on, but you get the point. For him and his needs/wants/desires, the 330i is very overpriced, for me it is not.
Comments
Fact of the matter is that most people lease their cars and with the current lease money factor and residual value differences, the 330i ends up being with-in $50 a month more than a same spec or even less spec like no HK, on the 325. And at that point, I found it very easy to get my 330i on order.
On the earlier topic of AWD vs RWD, my personal feeling is that, while I'm "lucky" to live where the roads are mostly dry so I can get my preferred RWD setup, I would not hesitate to get an AWD 3 series if I lived somewhere that snow and rain conditions were frequent. The AWD feels every bit as pure BMW as the rear. Look at it from this perspective - you're missing out on irresponsible driving in those poor conditions where the AWD would be sensational.
My 330i on a lease actually costs me LESS than a comparable equipped 325. The residual difference of 4% at the time is equal to a discount of that amount from the price when you are leasing. That means that a 330 with MSRP of $35,000 costs $1,400 less than a comparable equipped 325 right out of the chute. The money factor was .0021 of the 330 with .0030 on the 325. This is about $50 a month on the payment. Over 36 months this totals another $1,800. Also, if you get the fairly typical $1,500 over invoice, the difference becomes NIL between the two cars.
With a $2,500 down payment, my payments are $340 a month on a 330 with MSRP of $36,585. This is a reduction of $54 from $394 because I made 9 extra security deposits. Did I do badly? Did you get this on your 325?
On my 2nd 330 I had a trade in valued at $4,876, my payments are $299.72 on an MSRP of $39,485. This is also with 9 extra security deposits totaling $2,700. My total for 2 cars of $5,850 in refundable security deposits are reducing my payments by a total of $3,972 over 3 years. How does this 67.9% return compare to some of the investment concepts presented recently? I do trust BMW with my money.
I am happy to share every detail of the above with anyone who wants to know. Just to recap, with $7,376 down my payments for TWO 330's are $639.72.
macdude44 - You sound like an insecure 22-yr old accountant right out of college. I was there 10 years ago and I remember calculating percentage HP gain per percentage dollar increase too. We all go through stages and you'll catch up. There is a lot more to a car than HP, try to look beyond that. I know it wasn't easy for me to do that 10 years ago.
ross66 - BMWNA doesn't make it easy to figure out the price difference, that's how they get you. You obviously were too lazy to check the numbers that I told you about twice and since I work harder and am a lot more stubborn, I did it your way as well. Here are the numbers from BMWNA (all MSRP and 325i with options added to approximate the 330i):
330i
MSRP $36,310
Includes Sport Package - $1,200
and destination charge
325i
MSRP $31,430
Includes Sport Package - $1,400
Power front seats with driver memory - $945
On-board computer - $300
Harman Kardon premium sound system - $675
and destination charge
Difference:$4,880 - close enough to yours but see if you can improve your algebra knowledge
Let's look at the rest of the differences:
fog lights and automatic climate control system are standard on the 325i, as is cruise control; front center armrest is around $130; Other differences: titanium headlight surrounds, titanium front grille and chrome exhaust tail pipes, aluminum ringed gauges in cockpit, upgraded interior lighting, aluminum interior trim - how much is this gimicky shiny stuff worth, maybe $300? That's 300+130=$430. Subtract that from 4,880 and you get $4,450 for the engine. Oh, OK, I have not counted the fake M BADGING - $50 you say?
Objective Answer: $4,400 for the engine ALONE
End of objective discussion
Subjective discussion:
For me personally, I do NOT want the power front seats with driver memory - $945. I like to be able to move the seat around fast. Comes very handy when cleaning the car and you need to move the seat and even when you are switching drivers. I'll get power seats when I'm 70 years old. I don't want the armrest either beacuse it gets in my way when switching gears, especially switching fast. I always keep both hands on the wheel and I have no use for the armrest anyhow. Gimicky shiny stuff: some of it's fine but I would not pay to get it.
Fake M badging? Puuulease. And I do like the Star 44 wheels that are on the 325i SP better than any other 3-series. Actually better than any other wheels except for the Avus style wheels from the Audi S8 and S4.
So here's my personal difference:
4,880 was the standard difference I calculated above
+945 power seats
+130 armrest
+300 gimicky shiny stuff
+50 fake M badging
---
$6,305 - the money I would have to pay to get the engine which is the only thing I'd really like to have from the 330i that I do not have in the 325i. Oh, and 5% or more sales tax on $6,305, that would be about $315 for a total difference of $6,620.
Please, people, the 330i is a great car but I would not pay that premium over the 325i to get it or be jealous of the people that do. Enjoy it, whatever Bimmer you are driving
Spend the extra 5 grand and at least get a decent boost to go along with all the hassles.
Listen, you may have millions in your bank account and liquid too. That doesn't mean you have to rush and get a bigger car than what makes you happy. Figure out how much car you need to be happy at a minimum and go with that. I guess that makes me cheap now. Damn...next?
PS: I added stuff on the wheels in my Summary - they all happen to be 17" and I like Star 44 best. You have a point about the brakes but I'd say it's a tradeoff because you can't put 16" snows with those if you wanted to.
You are seemingly obsessed with HP as shown by your interest in Dinan products. Why do you denigrate the 330 with it's 41 more than your 325? It sounds a lot like regret or remorse to me.
So let me understand BMW engineers add shiny gimmicky items to the 330 to make it look more tacky than a 325? And the almighty braveheart values it at $300? BMW supplying M wheels but they are fake?
I do have a life and don't have time to spend all day and night to post on this board so i won't be doing any more analysis plenty of other posts today convince me that i'm closer to the truth than you. do you work? oh yeah you install peoplesoft (does your boss know you read this board all day and come up with convoluted calculations?) i'd have you on the street quickly. there are people even IT people who will give you an honest days work. BTW I didn't see any algebra in the math here just addition and subtraction, but now you're up to a $6300 difference? seems like your standing alone here.
If you can't afford the 330i just admit it.
PS we're dumping PeopleSoft for SAP.
Parump
You are seemingly obsessed with HP as shown by your interest in Dinan products. Why do you denigrate the 330 with it's 41 more than your 325? It sounds a lot like regret or remorse to me.
You are seemingly obsessed with HP as shown by your interest in Dinan products. Why do you denigrate the 330 with it's 41 more than your 325? It sounds a lot like regret or remorse to me.
Any disagreement?
I guess people simply saying, "why not admit you just can't afford the 330?" puts me off. Probably puts off every other reader too.
That said, I can tell you this story. When I was deciding what car to buy, I had pretty nearly decided on a 325xi. My bro in law and I were talking about it, and he said, "that's a serious car, how many horses in there?"
I said, "184".
He said, "wow, that's less than in my Accord."
I think the 325 was FINISHED in my mind from that point on. I guess that makes me immature, but I can live with that.
And these posts have been removed by our school-marm in residence. I find this UTTERLY ridiculous.
Here we are, a community full of adults, mainly men, and I feel like there is some sunday school teacher standing in the corner, looking down her nose through her bifocals at me, telling me to watch what I say.
Hey Pat, lighten up. Seriously.
Watch. She'll remove this post too.
I know myself. Had I gotten a 325, I would have coveted every 330 I saw for years, and it would have eaten at me. I know that not everyone is petty like this, so please don't think I am saying that Braveheart or anyone else is jealous or remorseful. But I would have been.
Knowing this, the few grand extra is not a lot to pay for peace of mind and satisfaction. Incidentally, I figure on the difference between the 325 and the 330 to be about $4K when you compare apples to apples.
Also, here's a lesson I learned from buying my house two and a half years ago: don't make your consumption decisions based on your budget today, make it based on your budget over the next X years. The 330 is a little bit of a stretch for me today (I am only putting $15K down), but it leaves me room to "grow into it" over the next few years as my income grows.
In contrast, my wife and I bought a house we could easily afford 2 1/2 years ago, and we are already looking to trade up. I didn't want to go through that with this car.
- the resale value will likely be higher as a percentage for the 330 as HP figures creep upward for all cars. In 5 years, the Accord may have the HP of today's 325. Look at the upcoming Altima and the Impreza WRX. I think the manual IS300 and the new A4 will beat the 325 in many comparisons next year.
- the 330 has slightly better gas mpg figures than the 325 (the IS300 sucks gas).
Given these additional factors, I'm still not sure which I will get. I will drive them back to back to compare but it's hard to punch them hard with a salesman sitting next to you.
know you're rooting for braveheart bc we all seem to know him personally given all his posts. Most of his posts are very useful/insightful but I just went over the edge with his continued promotion of the idea that 330i is overpriced, only difference is the engine and people who got the 330 overpaid. braveheart also pretty quickly crossed the line into personal insults.
But to negate all this rambling,I had a chance to drive a new 740i sport,and I was truly astounded.I found myself speeding down the road,cackling like a maniac. But I think I would not so emphasis power at purchase time.
I bought a 330i mainly because that's what I first test drove. The 325i manual that the dealer had was out with another customer at the time and he asked if I wanted to try out the 330 while I was waiting.
I'm glad I did.
Once I got back with the 330 then test drove the 325. The 325 was almost as great a car as the 330i, but it seemed to be a big letdown without those extra ponies.
I knew that I'd always be qustioning my decision if I went with a 325, so I ordered the 330. End of story.
Lobs -- could you send me some further details around your agreement(s) for future reference? I would have considered the multiple sec deposit option had I known about its existence. Why is this not broadly shared across dealers? What risks are involved -- what situations might arise that would not guarantee the return of the sec deposits at the end of the lease? Does GAP insurance cover the sec deposits, too? Please respons directly to me at burr@one.net. Much appreciated.
As for power, well I'm currently driving a Miata with 116 hp. The 325i is faster! If you are going to be bothered by someone else saying they've got more hp than you do, then you better not stop with the 330i (but, yeah, don't get the 325i).
All that said, the person who said (2 or 3 hundred posts ago now!) that everyone looking at the 325i owed it to themselves to test drive the 330i has a good point, and I will. I will see if the car can "sell" me -- I doubt it, but who knows?
What we "superior" 330 owners need to realize is that we're looked down upon by the 5-series owners who are in turn looked down upon by 7-series owners who are pitied by the S-Class Mercedes people who can't hold a handle to the Porsche 911 guys who are snubbed by the Z-9 boys who can't compete with the Ferrari folks.
Status, like it or not, is a big reason why many of us choose the BMW. Part of why we didn't buy the 325 is that we weren't comfortable purchasing the lowest priced car BMW has to offer. Kind of pathetic when you think about it. The old joke that unlike the porcupine, the pricks are on the inside of BMW's holds all-too-true. Just remember, there's always someone lifting their nose at us.
I haven't even taken possession of my coupe and I'm already turning into a jerk.
That said, 330's Rule and 325's Drool! :-)
What we "superior" 330 owners need to realize is that we're looked down upon by the 5-series owners who are in turn looked down upon by 7-series owners who are pitied by the S-Class Mercedes people who can't hold a handle to the Porsche 911 guys who are snubbed by the Z-9 boys who can't compete with the Ferrari folks.
Status, like it or not, is a big reason why many of us choose the BMW. Part of why we didn't buy the 325 is that we weren't comfortable purchasing the lowest priced car BMW has to offer. Kind of pathetic when you think about it. The old joke that unlike the porcupine, the pricks are on the inside of BMW's holds all-too-true. Just remember, there's always someone lifting their nose at us.
I haven't even taken possession of my coupe and I'm already turning into a jerk.
That said, 330's Rule and 325's Drool! :-)
BTW, aaa330i, I just found out that it is being manufactured in South Africa....a rep called me last night that responded to my email. Oh, well.
you are the one that wanted to jump from a factual discussion to insults and condescending statements. anyone can look through the thread and see that.
PAT - HELP braveheart1 has hurt my feelings wa wa wa...........
M3 Frank
Let people enjoy their cars. Instead of being contentious, we should be giving the "THUMBS UP" to each other on the road. I know that when I eventually get to drive my 325Ci and pull up next to a 330, I'll smile and give the nod of approval. If the guy looks at me with disdain/condescension, then I'll know he bought his car for all the wrong reasons. If he's able to look at me as a brother, then I'll know he's just like me--a car enthusiast and a BMW lover.
If you REALLY want a performance 3er, get a 330. Stop rationalizing.
I was one of 2 posters to say "if you cant afford it, just say so" I apologize for going over the top with that. I really understand that people have their rationales which can be as good or better than mine.
That said, this REALLY is the car I want. I don't like bigger cars, so the 5 and 7 series are out. I hate Mercedes, simply because they are too gaudy and snobby for my blue-collar upbringing. I can't have a serious sports car because I have kids coming in the next year or two.
So the 330 really is the car for me right now, irrespective of price. Anyone looking down their nose at me is really missing the point.
All that said, want to know what my serious "if-I-wasn't-about-to-have-kids-and-money-was-no-object" dream car would be?
An M3 convertible.
So my 330xi really isn't all that far from the mark even in THOSE circumstances.
On the 325 vs 330 issue: "The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate" - John Ruskin
denright: Having a family certainly doesn't mean you have to get an automatic, but here's the way it works for me. On a Saturday afternoon when I've got nothing to do but drive, give me a stick. But there are circumstances where I find a manual to be a pain in the neck: Stop and go traffic, yound child strapped in her car seat asking for her bottle or her book or a snack, early morning commute with a cup of coffee in my hand, occassional cell phone conversation. None of these situations are unmanageable with a stick. But marriage and kids have made most of them much more common. My wife is from Long Island where stop and go traffic can be found in its most perfect form. Sleep deprivation (young children => sleep deprivation, for those of you without kids) means coffee is *much* more important than it ever was. Family logistics *require* a cell phone, at least in my family where we have a teen and a toddler. Is the convenience of automatic in these situations worth the sacrifice? For me, yes. For you, who knows? By the way: although kids require many sacrifices, they are wonderful. You know that feeling you got when you first laid eyes on your new BMW? Wait til you see your very own child for the first time.
I have 323i with an automatic, the only thing that keeps me from being a bottom feeder is the fact that I have leather and power seats. I guess if I feel the need to talk some serious smack I'll have to find a 318ti thread, then I can dish out the pain. About the 22 year old account comment from brave, my wife is a 22 year old CPA, she passed before she turned 21, funny thing was that she could sign off on audits but couldn't buy a drink. I am dreading the day that I will find her calculating horsepower per dollar spent on a BMW.
Can't we just all get along.
-Getz
Best Regards,
Shipo