Are you a current Michigan-based car shopper? A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/2 for details.
You raise an interesting point. A sample size of 300, while not large as surveys go, is big enough to be meaningful. The problem is, it's only one dealer, as I pointed out before. So let's look at "meaningful" for a moment...
The first question is, "Is this dealer representative of all dealers, or did they get a 'bad batch' so to speak?" I could believe that this dealer is *roughly* representative of all dealers in the absence of information to the contrary.
The next question is "how representative?", and this one's harder.
The lower the "real" failure rate, the larger the sample you need to accurately estimate it. Think of it this way: it's harder to find a needle in a large haystack than it is in a small one (if the "haystack" is big and only has one "needle", your failure rate is small).
To see the effect of this, suppose Steve's dealer reported only 3 instead of 5 problem vans. Now the failure rate fell from 1.7% to 1.0%, a 40% (1 is 40% less than 1.7) change in the size of your estimate. Do you see how sensitive the numbers are to small sampling errors ? Suppose the real rate is 1.0% If Steve's dealer has seen only 2 more vans (of 300) than he "should have" according to the actual failure rate, then we're off by 40% in our example. Plus or minus 40% is a huge swing (especially when you then multiply by 60,000 total units).
Assuming that Steve's dealer is very close to "average", it would suggest that the reporting rate I estimated above is only about 3% here at Edmund's. Could be. (Bottgers: you're implying that the reporting rate is only 0.3%, which is really low. If nothing else, playing with the numbers like this exposes relationships that we can consider for plausibility...)
A failure rate of 1.7%, implied by the dealer Steve spoke with, would be serious business for Mazda. If the real rate is anywhere close to that, they need to issue a recall and offer a warranty extension, as Toyota did.
Car manufacturer's sell extremely expensive products, equivalent to many months of discretionary income for most of their customers. They cannot afford a failure rate in a major component of even a few percent. People would leave their brand in droves.
In fairness to Mazda's management, they might find themselves in protracted negotiations with their vendor right now regarding which firm will carry the warranty cost. This would explain why they're loathe to address this aggressively with their customers until they know where they stand.
I still think they should do more by way of communication, even if they can't commit to a blanket warranty extension yet. Just knowing that they acknowledge the issue would be helpful, no ?
Below is most of the message(the rest was seperate info I needed) that was returned to me from Mazda (see above for why I am posting this). This is the response I received. Now my car dealership is working to get more information for me. This is what I read into what they sent...."blah, blah, blah, just drive it and leave us alone, we already got your money". Sorry to be so harsh, but that is my sole opinion. Also in my orig letter to them I compared them to Kia and and other subpar vehicles. Maybe that is why I got the response I did. see below.
Also, as I stated in my previous response to you, Mazda is aware of the concerns your experiencing with your transmission and our Product Engineers are working on a resolution. Unfortunately, they don't have a resolution at this time. Your dealer will be notified when a fix is available, so I'd recommend staying in contact with your them. I certainly understand your frustration, and I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
I understand what you are talking about. But, we are not doing science here. Mazda is the one should and can do the math. As rough as the estimation could be from just one dealer, I believe it is the best hard data we have here. Dealers getting car shipment along the way. They don't just get a huge number at one time, as far as I understand. Like the 04 MPV, every dealer got 3 or 4 from the first shipment, at least this is true in Chicago area. That means those cars in one dealer should come from many different batches. And as it is possible that dealers could under-report the affected vans, that would only raise the occurring rates and further strengthen my personal feeling that transmission problem in MPV is not just some minor issue.
I agree, this is no minor issue. Whether the failure rate is 0.5% or 2%, it's a problem. We're talking transmissions here.
That's why I'm so disappointed by Mazda's communications approach so far. It really irks me, and I don't even have a problem van (knock on wood).
I hate to bring this up here, but Subaru has a senior customer service rep that has been assigned to support their customers through Edmund's as part of her job description. You cannot believe what a difference she makes. Everyone has a personal partner to take their stickier issues to, and Patti makes things happen. She's an absolute godsend.
To their credit, the Subaru Crew members know how special their relationship with Subaru is, and protect it from trolls and others who would abuse the privilege. It's a partnership that everyone - owners, website and manufacturer alike - benefits from.
Mazda would do well to learn from this example. I've written them on just this issue, and offered some "free advice" regarding their website too, FWIW. We'll see if anything comes of it.
I think the problem with the response you got is that it comes from a department that feels its function is to protect Mazda from the big, bad world. They're worried about giving out any information that might end up being used against them later. It's absolutely the wrong approach, but it's a classic.
One thing to remember about the 5/300 ratio from my dealer is that the 300 includes all the 2001 and earlier MPVs. The service manager couldn't (or wouldn't) give me a split.
Something else I'd like to know is how long this problem has existed. I got my MPV on 12th August and it started immediately. Who claims the earliest date? No prizes :-)
I just dropped in on this chat to hear about the transmission problem. How many people have had that? I'm within hours of buying a 2004 mpv. Any other bugs I should know about? What I like about the car: as a longtime Chrysler minivan owner, I want the ability to take a group of friends, or grandkids, but in a car that has fewer maintenance issues. Also, my bike will fit inside. A major point. Please advise.
First off, you should not use the terms "failure rate" (no transmissions have failed to date)or "transmission problems" (the transmission has not been identified as the problem area).
Regarding the response rumor24 received, I think it is very appropriate. Frustrating because you have to deal with this and nobody can give you a solution. But they did acknowledge that there is a problem which is good. Unfortunately, you have to be patient because it seems like Mazda doesn't know how to solve this one.
How many? That's the question we've all been asking :-) and the quick answer is that we just don't know.
Would I still have bought the MPV if I knew I was going to have this problem? At the moment, yes. If it aint fixed in 3 months then I think I'll have changed my mind.
If I'm being jolted when changing between 2nd and 3rd gears then I'm going to call it a transmission problem. If it turns out to be caused by my son bouncing up and down in his booster seat then I will stand corrected.
My dealer calls it a transmission problem; Mazda have previously said they're working on new TCM software. That's good enough for me.
Point taken. "Failure" is a relative term, and might be misleading. We have had no reports of people getting stranded with a "failed" transmission to my knowledge.
<If Edmund's allowed it, I'd go back and edit my posts... oh well...>
The phrase we use in software test engineering is "not functioning as designed". I'll use "hard shifting" from now on.
Thanks brianV. I am not an owner of an MPV. I do not work for Mazda or for any other automotive suplly or distribution company. I'm just a man looking for a minivan. I just hate to the wrong termss used for what is actually going on. that's all.
As you can see from our discussion, we don't really know how many people have the hard shift problem. I've spent a lot of time and energy the last few days trying to kind of "draw a line around" the problem, that is figure out what the upper and lower bounds probably are.
I think we have reason to believe that no more than a few percent at most of all owners have this problem. Which means that 97% or more don't. There are some people here who think the problem is much more widespread than that. It's hard to tell.
If those were the odds playing Lotto, we'd all be millionaires by now.
From my personal experience, I can strongly recommend the MPV. We absolutely love ours. Unfortunately, your mileage may vary (but probably won't in my opinion).
I like to think that I'm a reasonably good writer, and I've put a lot of thought into my posts the last few days. Thanks for catching me on that one.
I think we do know that it's a transmission problem, at least in the broad sense. It might be a software problem involving the engine control module (ECM) and/or the transmission control module (TCM), but it manifests itself as a transmission problem, and that's how people experience it.
Some very knowledgeable people here doubt the software theory. I'm not in a position to judge that point, so I stay out of that part of the discussion. At any event, I think we can call it a transmission problem without abusing the truth.
I'm not affilitated with Mazda or any other entity in the car industry either. We do business forms and supplies, you know, paper, pencils, etc.
In a previous life I worked in international market research, and I currently work as a senior test engineer, so I have the skills and training to go after weird problems like this in a general way.
Sure is if you own one and it does not shift properly...and please don't waste your time trying to wordsmith "proper." You know it when you drive it.
As for prospective buyers, the MPV is indeed an attractive package. The 2004 is my second one. But knowing what I know now I would not buy the 2004, or if I did I'd make sure the dealer would take it back if it had the hard shift problem -- I'd get it in writting.
i know nothing about transmissions so take these comments as definitely non-authoritative...
the problem seems like its hardware related (i'm not talking electronics...if that were the case, software would definitely not help. no, i'm thinking mechanical or fluid/hydraulic).
isn't an AT and associated torque convertor basically controlled externally through some solenoids (ie two position devices) commanded in either one of two states)?
a solenoid would be an on/off device commanded by software; the mechanicals which are attached to it would dwell in between extremes of travel by design for a very short period of time.
in contrast a servo could be modulated by software to send connected mechanicals to go to one of two extremes, as well as dwell at some intermediate spot somewhere in between those extremes...
i don't think they use servos in the AT / torque convertor interface with the control system. i think they use solenoids.
if that's true (anyone?) i personally don't see how a software patch, re-flash (whatever they call it) will mitigate the severity of the bump that is being experienced.
if solenoids are involved, you can, via software change the timing of when they are energized and de-energized (if more than two are used then you can control when in relation to each other they are commanded and to what state), you can change their "duty cycle" (how often or long they are commanded to one position vs the other per a given unit of time), and you can rapidly pulse them on/off as opposed to a steady command to one state or the other, but i don't think you can't do much more than that with them.
solenoids are commanded open/closed or into this position or that position to either engage something or disengage something, or allow flow or inhibit flow.
does this make any sense?
the problem you people are experiencing fits better with a non-linearity or a hysteresis like some passages being clogged or mechanicals getting stuck, then becomming unclogged or unstuck when a change is made via the controller.
yeah, i could even see a solenoid itself experiencing sticktion...ie being commanded in one state, but for some reason taking a long time to transition from it's previous state to the desired state because of friction for example.
to me - it just seems like a problem which isn't prime for a software solution.
"Hard Shift" in a New Car is a NO NO. Don't know how to fix it also a NO NO. Disappointed is my final word. Mazda should face this hard shift problem if they can't fix it who can?
You got a large servo loop... The way you trouble shoot loops is start at the "most likley part" Is the tranny control passages and oil clean??? Test that theory by flushing the body... and retry... Go from there.... Piece at a time... There is rhyme and reason for all things....
Who can fix it?? Well Mazda doesn't want to try... (Maybe Ford controls Mazda now? Typical Ford warranty response)
So, pay to have the flush... Then see what happens. If that doesn't do it then live with it until tranny falls out (before warranty is out hopefully) Then get a rebuilt tranny....
Is the interaction between the tranny controller and the engine. When I experience the hard shift, it is preceeded by engine rev up and a feeling that the thing is stuck between gears. Then the engine feels like its being retarded and then you get the slam. Its like the engine and the transmission are having a disagreement about when and how to do the shift.
I see we've got most of this discussion here. I'm certainly not a gear-head, and I'm a woman on top of it all, but I am a woman who knows more than the average woman about cars. My dad is a mechanical engineer and he rebuilds cars for a hobby. (Come to think of it, I should give him a call and see what he thinks of it!)
Anyhoo, the way I would describe the "hard shift" is like this. Pretend you are driving a stick shift. You are in 2nd gear and depress the clutch and hold it, then you rev up the engine, shift into third and pop out the clutch. You get a "clunk" and lurch forward just as you would trying to do it with a manual from 4th to 5th gear since 5th is overdrive.
It feels to me like a slipping transmission, as I've had this happen with my 2001 Chevrolet Impala which needed a new transmission at 13K miles. That's a whole 'nother story (nightmare). I must have all the luck......
I'm pretty disappointed with the answer you got from Mazda. But I do agree at least they aren't denying there's a problem. My only concern is that this problem has been going on since the '03 models, right? That's a year's worth of this. How long is it going to take them to figure it out?
Thanks for clarifying the mechanicals. That helps a lot.
One thought I have is this: if there are a number of solenoids acting on various controls/valves, is it possible to have an "illegal" combination of settings that would cause the flair ?
Something like "valve A should never be open when valve C is open", or somesuch.
If so, that type of combination problem could very well be caused by faulty software telling the solenoids to fire at the wrong time. It could also be caused by one of the valves sticking due to contamination, or a combination of software that has less than ideal timing and contamination, where the software makes the unit sensitive to contamination.
There *is* some control logic to this thing; it senses grades (hills), engine speed, throttle position, vehicle speed, torque converter lockup, AT gear selected, and AT range selected, right ? Those are the external inputs to the software that I can think of. It must also "know" about the state of every control solenoid, how ever many there are, so that it can effect change. That makes for enough variables to make things interesting from an engineering standpoint.
How many solenoids are used in a typical 5-speed AT?
By the way, we're all upset with Mazda, but this is a Jatco tranny. In fairness, we don't know whether it's Mazda, Ford or Jatco that's dragging its feet. In fact, we don't actually know that they're dragging their feet at all (implies that they're not trying very hard).
We do know that they're not telling us much about what's going on, which invites cynical speculation, and understandably so.
We have a collective sense that "they should have fixed this by now", without any real knowledge about what's broken. I have a feeling that part of the delay is due to an internal dispute over who should pay for the fix, Mazda or Jatco. My hunch is that the lawyers are involved, that's what's taking so long.
I just viewed the forum Toyota Sienna 2004 problem. Saw some reports the same tranny hard shift problems. I assume Toyota and Mazda both use JATCO's tranny. Problem from JATCO?
The general trend in the industry is away from designing and building transmissions internally (by the manufacturer). They're an expensive, complex major component, and it's cheaper to spread that cost over more vehicles (brands). The pace of change has quickened, and it's become too expensive for individual manufacturers to keep up.
I think Jatco is the 3rd largest supplier in the world, providing transmissions to virtually every major manufacturer for one or more models. As I understand it, they actually enjoy a good reputation for quality, originally growing out of a joint venture with Nissan if I'm not mistaken.
I would be surprised if Mazda was the only manufacturer affected.
my comments and questions are comming from someone who admits that he doesn't know anything about ATs and Torque Convertors.
if I were an owner with this problem, i'd probably research it hard though.
you've raised some important points. i didn't say it couldn't be software related. infact, it could be made worse by software.
if i have it correct, there are reports of other people not having the problem at all. other people are experiencing it to lesser or more degree.
that doesn't sound like software does it?
i mean to say, if it were software, then one would think everyone would have the same problem, and it would have started from day one with all the cars.
sure sure. people have different driving habits. but, a person's driving habits don't change much, so if the system "learned" a certain pattern, and now all of a sudden there is this controllability issue, something is up.
someone even said they were told to let their car learn their driving pattern...and after driving and waiting (while something is supposed to be learning?), they've still got an issue.
granted, i consider it completely possible perhaps there are feedback limit switches (ie on the solenoids or the valves or mechanical control arms or whatever is being moved about), or their are some other external sensor inputs, which are sensed by the controller, and inturn that affects the controller's subsequent command of the tranny. they could have gone marginal to bad.
however, if that were the case, i wonder if that could be fixed with a TCM software upgrade. i doubt that.
it just doesn't fit does it?
for example, you wouldn't modify the ABS programming to compensate for a faulty wheel sensor would you? you wouldn't roll that modification out to a fleet of vehicles with no ABS problem...
if i had to hop on a train without more information, i'd choose tomj5's train.
tomj5's assertion could be tested. you could take a tranny which is shifting hard, and flush the heck out of it. if the shifting is greatly improved, i think that would support the general hypothesis he and i think some others were proposing.
My mentor in the systems testing business used to hammer home "NEVER Assume, TEST and Verify, TEST and Verify".... Trannies are fluid Amplifers (a small force controls large force.) The solenoids control the gates that control the fluid hydraulics...
There is two possibilities for problems... 1. Fault with the control electronics... 2. Fault with the hydraulic(fluid) acutators..
What to do... Gather all known working models and check differences. Example: Tranny works in most MPVs with no problems. Therefore software and electronics being the same (?) it is unlikely problem is electroncs related... (Reflashing software doesn't work). Notice that many late model cars are having same problem not just Mazda... What is going on??? There is a new (cheap) way to make gears (precision casting not the old expensive hand machineing method) Even motorcycles are having problems with these new gears. When made the gears are rough and require extensive break in to smooth them out... Interesting.. Therefore at this time the most likley course of action is to test the contamnation theory by back flushing the tranny and see if it shifts smoother.. If it does then flush it again to see if it improves even more... Honda has this policy in place for their "hard" trannies.. Of Course Mazda knows this and is balking at paying for the flushing(labor intensive)... Dealers don't work for nothing.... Maybe I am wrong, but TEST and VERIFY!!!!
Hmmmm. I live in a world where software is incredibly complex (I'm a software test engineer), so I have a little trouble with the presumption that "if it were software, everyone would have the same problem". That doesn't necessarily follow for me. We see isolated, intermittent problems crop up every day in our software, and so does just about everybody else in the industry.
So, yes, people experiencing different problems, and different degrees of the same problem, does sound like a software problem to me. It also sounds like a lot of mechanical problems, too. It could be either or both.
Variability in software response depends on what the inputs to the software are, the size of the range of values for each input, and the complexity of the logic applied to the values or combination of values in question. I don't have any idea how complex a TCM is, so I simply can't say. "Learning" implies that the logic applied to the input values changes over time, but it is not the only potential source of intermittent software problems by far.
Tomj5's points are well-taken. If we had this problem with our van, I would spend the $150 to get the transmission power flushed and see what happens, after "dinging" the dealer to cover the cost if possible.
But if it were that simple, then Mazda should already know how to fix this, and they're just being "penny wise and pound foolish", stringing people along. This has been a lot of that at Ford and elsewhere in the past (the Pinto and Explorer come to mind...) I may be naive, or just overly reluctant to embrace cynism, but I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
I'm with you man. That's what we do too, of course.
Another mantra we live by: "Know what you know, and what you don't know, and never confuse the two."
You have information available to you that I don't have. Your hypothesis that the change in manufacturing technique has led to increased and unpredictable contamination levels across otherwise identical units is certainly compelling.
I would add that the interface between the electronics and mechanicals is a third potential source of problems, and in my view, the most complex part of the system.
While I was there, I inquired about the 2-3 shift flare problem. My dealer claims they have no cases of this, for what it's worth.
They do know about the TSB regarding the shift range selector (had that done on my van right after we got it). But no cases of hard shifting that they can't fix with the selector switch adjustment.
This dealer is part of a large nationwide chain and seems reasonably sharp.
i too perform software test for complex systems. i tend to take the designs of other engineers and find failure modes that they never thought of.
i was only attempting to provide an alternate method of looking at the problem...tomj5 was doing just fine by himself...but i was offering up another viewpoint that might trigger / solicit someone else's expertise or insight.
nothing more. nothing less. i admitted this topic is not within my domain of expertise, but i was hoping to contribute to an educated dialog none-the-less.
for me, it is an interesting problem; a transmission operability issue is something i hope i never experience with my van. other makes have had their share of issues. i am aware of manufacturers being supplied by third parties.
i never said it *wasn't* SW related...
if it's a problem with other sensors going into the TCM, then it's not SW, so i won't conceed that to you. to patch for a faulty/marginal transducer seems a slippery slope.
anyway, doesn't it seem to you that if a SW patch were going to do the trick here, it would have been developed and tested a long time ago?
Interesting discussion regarding SW spec's. I tend to advocate "defensive code" wherever there's a risk of "sufficiently bad things" happening - perhaps you take a more conservative philosophy regarding the responsibilities of the software.
So if there were a requirement like "valve A can never be open when valve C is open", as in my example, then the software is required to never *command* that combination, irrespective of the sensor input, unless the sensor input is out of range or somesuch. In the latter case, I would strive for a design that is robust in the sense that it makes "safe" decisions and alarms when a sensor goes out of range. That's the "limp home" mode they talk about.
Also, if valve C is stuck or slow, say, and we have no means to detect its actual state, then it's not a SW problem, as I'm sure you'd agree.
I'm wondering if there aren't unforeseen data constellations in the inputs that cause the software to make illegal commands or illegal command sequences. Defensive code written to detect these constellations and act accordingly would fix such a problem.
If they're using embedded Java, they might have some object-oriented related stuff going on, where an object is acting on a message when it shouldn't and getting the software into a bad state. That doesn't explain why it keeps happening after a reflash or reset though.
I'm liking tomj5's theory more and more as we think this through...
This is the best that I've been able to get out of Mazda:
"Thank you again for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.
We have been told by our Product Engineers that this is not causing damage to the transmission. This is more of an annoyance at this point. The dealers will be contacted once a fix is available. This will more than likely be a software fix."
I have the van at the dealer right now, the mazda service manager is coming down to look at it himself. While I was there a number of car dealers who have experienced it it my van said they will be there tomorrow, this way they can tell him what they have seen. The dealer has said this is still the only one they have seen do this. My rental is a nissan xterra(boooo). It will be ok for the 3 inches of snow we are about to get, but I am glad I never thought about one of these. For a big vehicle, it is very small inside. But the dealer is trying very hard so cudos to them. They reminded me of the lemon law, however I hope it does not come down to that. This is a good vehicle for me if we can just get past this issue. I will update you all when I get more info.
Steveeast, quite interesting the reply you received. I've been barking up the same tree with Mazda and here's my response from them:
"We have been told by our Product Engineers that this is not causing damage to the transmission. This is more of an annoyance at this point. The dealers will be contacted once a fix is available. I certainly understand your frustration, and I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you."
Ha ha! I'll bet they have a list of statements to choose from to answer people's questions with, just pick one from the "drop down".
Mine's going in Monday even though I know they probably can't fix it. I demanded an appointment so that at least I can say they tried and failed to fix it. Who know's, maybe they'll install a magic TCM that works!!
To top it all off, my husband ran over some metal object with it and blew out a tire. Went to Tire Discounters and they said it's hard to find, and it'll cost $166 to replace. Boy, we're off to a good start with this automobile!
you have to read svmazda's post in the other thread (problems and solutions).
if there were states in a very complex state machine that a user only got into after months of driving (and system "learning" (heh heh), then sure, i'd be with you that there is the remote possibility the reps suggesting "give it time to learn your driving habits" might be offering useful information...
there are of course a few problems with it. if you create a program with unforseen states with seemingly no exit - your system is on orders of complexity too complex for the automobile industry. also - it is fundamentally broken.
back to svmazda's post - if they are swapping TCMs but the results are no-joy, can we rule out the "learning" portion of the picture? can we rule out constellation spaces?
yes, as you said...it wouldn't support what continues to happen after a reflash, a reset (or an entire new TCM), would it?
The software using "JAVA".. That is like saying that the TCM gets instructions off the web....
The TCM just controls the tranny timing based on responses from the engine parameters, RPM, Temp, groundspeed, and even brakes... This is how the driver "communicates" with the tranny. The software is really very dumb. Along the lines of a smart house thermostat... Someday we will be able to "select" by a mouse what kind of tranny performance we want... But not now...
Start with the simple things first (Is tranny clean? Yes or No) To many MPVs are working good to be a manufacturing fault with software or electronics.... Possible, but a long shot.... The so called new code, sounds like they are trying to modify code to cover up the real problem.. The wide range of shifting roughness is typical of particle contamnation in trannies... Boy,I would like to see the code that can compansate for random failures!! That sounds like "Terminator" code!!! (The Movie)
Test and Verify!!! (Small moves, Sparks, Small moves. (From the movie "Contact")) Otherwise, just sit around and Cry in our Beer dear! (I like that song by HW jr.) Tj
So I took the MPV to the dealer having made an appointment with a factory tech rep to test drive the van. I wrote a detailed desciption of my observations with the tranny and printed comments from this discussion board.
Here is the result:
1) The tech rep completely dismissed Edmunds.com comments--couldn't care less 2) He was able to reproduce two instances of "different shifts" during his test drive, appx 40 miles. 3) He recited what seemed to me a Mazda script that went something like "Mazda MPVs are experiencing occasional hard shifts and we are working on a solution. There is no current solution" 4)He said he downloaded data from my van to a disk and would send it to Mazda in CA for evaluation 5) I asked what the time frame would be for a solution--and this is were it got kinda strange--he started to say how the transmission was shifting normally and that he was going out of his way to accomodate me.... 6) The dealer refused to give a summary of their findings to me in writing
Well what can I say, having the hard shift "thing" is one thing but dealing with Orwellian language from Mazda is another.
Darn, you didn't even get a kiss... That is called a "Dog and Pony Show" I have set through a bunch of them.... I would clap and say That was very entertaining, now let's get on with the real business. You should have seen their faces. I was the Govt Rep and controlled the money.....
They know exactly what is wrong! Just don't want to pay for it... Cars are not rocket science...
There is a badddd Smell Of FFFFOOOOOORRRRRDDDDD!!!!!!!!! Well, We are on our own gang! That answers that question, We did buy Fords..... Tj
Each State's Attorney General's office should have a consumer affairs division. At the very least I would send a courtesy copy of the letter to the dealership to the AG's office, and make sure the dealer knows that a copy has been sent. You may also want to send a copy to your BBB. In fact, I would recommend that any of you who feel like you're getting the runaround from Mazda and/or your dealer contact your AG's office.
user777 - I agree, I don't want to turn this into a software discussion beyond the immediate issue with the TCM/transmission either. It's been fun, but I think we've carried the discussion as far as we can.
tomj5 - You haven't heard of embedded Java, I guess. It's used in a lot of industrial controllers these days, microwaves, ECM's, etc. Has nothing to do with the web.
audia8q - If Mazda Corporate wants to be treated with respect, then they have to earn that respect, as I'm sure you'll agree. The communication strategy followed thusfar with their customers is abominable. No one in their right mind will believe that the tranny shifting as hard as described will not cause damage, nor should they. You might just as well try telling people that the sun rises in the north.
Rather than getting into characterizing the statement from Mazda above, I'll turn the logic around instead. If Mazda believes this is just a nuisance issue, then there is no reason why they can't offer an extended warranty on the transmission to everyone affected. Afterall, there's been no damage done, right ? No damage means no business risk to Mazda, so it should be a freebie. Imagine the goodwill they could buy for free.
Taking an aggressive CYA tack with people is what leads to class action litigation, and understandably so (No, I am not advocating that course of action to anyone. Litigation is an absolute morass to be avoided whenever possible). These folks just want their cars to run properly, and to be treated fairly. That's not too much to ask.
Please don't take our frustration with Mazda personally. You've been a voice of moderation and reason on these boards, and we appreciate your input.
Mazda is not going to say that these hard shifts will cause damage to the transmissions. No company is going to put themselves in a position that would leave them open for possible litigation down the road.
The customer reps are just the guys in the middle between you and management. Their job is to keep you from getting to the top management at Mazda.
If Mazda can fix this problem with the cars already sold and it won't cost them a fortune, they will. They might just make the changes for the cars on the production line to prevent this in the future and not address the problems with the MPV's already out there.
Mazda shouldn't say anything regarding damage to the transmission then. I'm tired of being told that the "sun rises in the north" in the name of protecting profits. It may be common, even standard practice, but it's not "OK". Protecting profits is just a ready excuse. It's no justification for mistreating your customers.
They're sacrificing long-term profits by taking this course. But those aren't on the books yet, so they don't count, strangely.
In my opinion, this is a form of mismanagement that contributes to the severity of the problem.
has anyone thought to let other mazda boards not just mpv know about this? They may be having similar issues and need a sympathetic shoulder to cry on as well.
I reread my last post and thought it through again, and see that I'm not very clear.
I expect Mazda to stand behind their product and to do the "right thing". Some people have had this problem for months. They are legitimately concerned that their transmissions have been damaged by what amounts to a manufacturing defect. They have the right to expect Mazda to stand behind their product, and to handle their cases appropriately, perhaps quietly, on an individual basis, but appropriately nonetheless.
I expect Mazda to be honest and forthright with us, their customers, at all times. Telling people that a serious problem is just a nuisance issue is not only dishonest, but offensive. This is not acceptable, and we should tell them so.
Idealistic ? Yes. What's wrong with that ? Expect more. We should hold decision makers in all walks of life to higher standards. But it won't happen unless we set those expectations, and are prepared to hold ourselves to the same standards.
There are many things that Mazda could say which would be appropriate, and truthful, without making them incur legal risk.
And that's ultimately my biggest issue with this whole fiasko, personally. Mistakes happen. Complex machines come to market with problems. That's unfortunate, but not the issue, really. The issue is how they're responding to it - or not.
The other Mazda boards are preoccupied with rust. Well, just the Mazda6 board, and Mazda says it's staining from the lube used to put the weather stripping on. A few owners think that explanation is a bit disingenuous, and aren't too happy with the customer service response in that case either.
It's always something....
Oh yeah, whenever the power windows get balky in my Quest, I remind myself that there's a bunch of Ford switches in it :-)
I understand what you are saying and believe me I feel for anyone who has to go through this type of situation. Maybe and just maybe, Mazda is telling the truth and they know that this situation will not cause any harm to the transmissions and they are being up front with MPV owners.
The best solution to this possible problem is for people who want to buy the MPV, call Mazda and the dealers and tell them that they are holding off their purchase until a solution is found. But, they aren't going to wait very long, there happens to be other vans out there on the market they could also purchase.
If the MPV sales fall off because people refuse buy Mazda, Mazda will have to get off the fence and find a fix or extend the warranty to provide protection to the owners.
As far as being truthful with customers, in their eye's, being vague and giving the run-a-round is being truthful.
Comments
The first question is, "Is this dealer representative of all dealers, or did they get a 'bad batch' so to speak?" I could believe that this dealer is *roughly* representative of all dealers in the absence of information to the contrary.
The next question is "how representative?", and this one's harder.
The lower the "real" failure rate, the larger the sample you need to accurately estimate it. Think of it this way: it's harder to find a needle in a large haystack than it is in a small one (if the "haystack" is big and only has one "needle", your failure rate is small).
To see the effect of this, suppose Steve's dealer reported only 3 instead of 5 problem vans. Now the failure rate fell from 1.7% to 1.0%, a 40% (1 is 40% less than 1.7) change in the size of your estimate. Do you see how sensitive the numbers are to small sampling errors ? Suppose the real rate is 1.0% If Steve's dealer has seen only 2 more vans (of 300) than he "should have" according to the actual failure rate, then we're off by 40% in our example. Plus or minus 40% is a huge swing (especially when you then multiply by 60,000 total units).
Assuming that Steve's dealer is very close to "average", it would suggest that the reporting rate I estimated above is only about 3% here at Edmund's. Could be. (Bottgers: you're implying that the reporting rate is only 0.3%, which is really low. If nothing else, playing with the numbers like this exposes relationships that we can consider for plausibility...)
A failure rate of 1.7%, implied by the dealer Steve spoke with, would be serious business for Mazda. If the real rate is anywhere close to that, they need to issue a recall and offer a warranty extension, as Toyota did.
Car manufacturer's sell extremely expensive products, equivalent to many months of discretionary income for most of their customers. They cannot afford a failure rate in a major component of even a few percent. People would leave their brand in droves.
In fairness to Mazda's management, they might find themselves in protracted negotiations with their vendor right now regarding which firm will carry the warranty cost. This would explain why they're loathe to address this aggressively with their customers until they know where they stand.
I still think they should do more by way of communication, even if they can't commit to a blanket warranty extension yet. Just knowing that they acknowledge the issue would be helpful, no ?
-brianV
Also, as I stated in my previous response to you, Mazda is aware of the
concerns your experiencing with your transmission and our Product
Engineers are working on a resolution. Unfortunately, they don't have a
resolution at this time. Your dealer will be notified when a fix is
available, so I'd recommend staying in contact with your them.
I certainly understand your frustration, and I apologize for any
inconvenience this may cause you.
Mazda really needs to get on the ball regarding customer communication.
-brianV
That's why I'm so disappointed by Mazda's communications approach so far. It really irks me, and I don't even have a problem van (knock on wood).
I hate to bring this up here, but Subaru has a senior customer service rep that has been assigned to support their customers through Edmund's as part of her job description. You cannot believe what a difference she makes. Everyone has a personal partner to take their stickier issues to, and Patti makes things happen. She's an absolute godsend.
To their credit, the Subaru Crew members know how special their relationship with Subaru is, and protect it from trolls and others who would abuse the privilege. It's a partnership that everyone - owners, website and manufacturer alike - benefits from.
Mazda would do well to learn from this example. I've written them on just this issue, and offered some "free advice" regarding their website too, FWIW. We'll see if anything comes of it.
-brianV
Steve.
Something else I'd like to know is how long this problem has existed. I got my MPV on 12th August and it started immediately. Who claims the earliest date? No prizes :-)
Steve.
-brianV
What I like about the car: as a longtime Chrysler minivan owner, I want the ability to take a group of friends, or grandkids, but in a car that has fewer maintenance issues. Also, my bike will fit inside. A major point. Please advise.
Regarding the response rumor24 received, I think it is very appropriate. Frustrating because you have to deal with this and nobody can give you a solution. But they did acknowledge that there is a problem which is good. Unfortunately, you have to be patient because it seems like Mazda doesn't know how to solve this one.
Would I still have bought the MPV if I knew I was going to have this problem? At the moment, yes. If it aint fixed in 3 months then I think I'll have changed my mind.
Steve.
My dealer calls it a transmission problem; Mazda have previously said they're working on new TCM software. That's good enough for me.
Steve.
<If Edmund's allowed it, I'd go back and edit my posts... oh well...>
The phrase we use in software test engineering is "not functioning as designed". I'll use "hard shifting" from now on.
-brianV
I think we have reason to believe that no more than a few percent at most of all owners have this problem. Which means that 97% or more don't. There are some people here who think the problem is much more widespread than that. It's hard to tell.
If those were the odds playing Lotto, we'd all be millionaires by now.
From my personal experience, I can strongly recommend the MPV. We absolutely love ours. Unfortunately, your mileage may vary (but probably won't in my opinion).
Sorry that I can't be more definitive than that.
-brianV
I like to think that I'm a reasonably good writer, and I've put a lot of thought into my posts the last few days. Thanks for catching me on that one.
I think we do know that it's a transmission problem, at least in the broad sense. It might be a software problem involving the engine control module (ECM) and/or the transmission control module (TCM), but it manifests itself as a transmission problem, and that's how people experience it.
Some very knowledgeable people here doubt the software theory. I'm not in a position to judge that point, so I stay out of that part of the discussion. At any event, I think we can call it a transmission problem without abusing the truth.
I'm not affilitated with Mazda or any other entity in the car industry either. We do business forms and supplies, you know, paper, pencils, etc.
In a previous life I worked in international market research, and I currently work as a senior test engineer, so I have the skills and training to go after weird problems like this in a general way.
Just trying to "share the wealth" so to speak...
-brianV
As for prospective buyers, the MPV is indeed an attractive package. The 2004 is my second one. But knowing what I know now I would not buy the 2004, or if I did I'd make sure the dealer would take it back if it had the hard shift problem -- I'd get it in writting.
people are looking for a TCM or SW fix...
i know nothing about transmissions so take these comments as definitely non-authoritative...
the problem seems like its hardware related (i'm not talking electronics...if that were the case, software would definitely not help. no, i'm thinking mechanical or fluid/hydraulic).
isn't an AT and associated torque convertor basically controlled externally through some solenoids (ie two position devices) commanded in either one of two states)?
a solenoid would be an on/off device commanded by software; the mechanicals which are attached to it would dwell in between extremes of travel by design for a very short period of time.
in contrast a servo could be modulated by software to send connected mechanicals to go to one of two extremes, as well as dwell at some intermediate spot somewhere in between those extremes...
i don't think they use servos in the AT / torque convertor interface with the control system. i think they use solenoids.
if that's true (anyone?) i personally don't see how a software patch, re-flash (whatever they call it) will mitigate the severity of the bump that is being experienced.
if solenoids are involved, you can, via software change the timing of when they are energized and de-energized (if more than two are used then you can control when in relation to each other they are commanded and to what state), you can change their "duty cycle" (how often or long they are commanded to one position vs the other per a given unit of time), and you can rapidly pulse them on/off as opposed to a steady command to one state or the other, but i don't think you can't do much more than that with them.
solenoids are commanded open/closed or into this position or that position to either engage something or disengage something, or allow flow or inhibit flow.
does this make any sense?
the problem you people are experiencing fits better with a non-linearity or a hysteresis like some passages being clogged or mechanicals getting stuck, then becomming unclogged or unstuck when a change is made via the controller.
yeah, i could even see a solenoid itself experiencing sticktion...ie being commanded in one state, but for some reason taking a long time to transition from it's previous state to the desired state because of friction for example.
to me - it just seems like a problem which isn't prime for a software solution.
regards.
Don't know how to fix it also a NO NO.
Disappointed is my final word. Mazda should face this hard shift problem if they can't fix it who can?
You got a large servo loop... The way you trouble shoot loops is start at the "most likley part"
Is the tranny control passages and oil clean??? Test that theory by flushing the body... and retry... Go from there.... Piece at a time...
There is rhyme and reason for all things....
Who can fix it?? Well Mazda doesn't want to try... (Maybe Ford controls Mazda now? Typical Ford warranty response)
So, pay to have the flush... Then see what happens. If that doesn't do it then live with it until tranny falls out (before warranty is out hopefully) Then get a rebuilt tranny....
Tj
Here is an interesting opinion worth to look at
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pb/5w-20engineoil.htm
Anyhoo, the way I would describe the "hard shift" is like this. Pretend you are driving a stick shift. You are in 2nd gear and depress the clutch and hold it, then you rev up the engine, shift into third and pop out the clutch. You get a "clunk" and lurch forward just as you would trying to do it with a manual from 4th to 5th gear since 5th is overdrive.
It feels to me like a slipping transmission, as I've had this happen with my 2001 Chevrolet Impala which needed a new transmission at 13K miles. That's a whole 'nother story (nightmare). I must have all the luck......
I'm pretty disappointed with the answer you got from Mazda. But I do agree at least they aren't denying there's a problem. My only concern is that this problem has been going on since the '03 models, right? That's a year's worth of this. How long is it going to take them to figure it out?
Not bad, I wouldn't mind driving that. ;-)
One thought I have is this: if there are a number of solenoids acting on various controls/valves, is it possible to have an "illegal" combination of settings that would cause the flair ?
Something like "valve A should never be open when valve C is open", or somesuch.
If so, that type of combination problem could very well be caused by faulty software telling the solenoids to fire at the wrong time. It could also be caused by one of the valves sticking due to contamination, or a combination of software that has less than ideal timing and contamination, where the software makes the unit sensitive to contamination.
There *is* some control logic to this thing; it senses grades (hills), engine speed, throttle position, vehicle speed, torque converter lockup, AT gear selected, and AT range selected, right ? Those are the external inputs to the software that I can think of. It must also "know" about the state of every control solenoid, how ever many there are, so that it can effect change. That makes for enough variables to make things interesting from an engineering standpoint.
How many solenoids are used in a typical 5-speed AT?
By the way, we're all upset with Mazda, but this is a Jatco tranny. In fairness, we don't know whether it's Mazda, Ford or Jatco that's dragging its feet. In fact, we don't actually know that they're dragging their feet at all (implies that they're not trying very hard).
We do know that they're not telling us much about what's going on, which invites cynical speculation, and understandably so.
We have a collective sense that "they should have fixed this by now", without any real knowledge about what's broken. I have a feeling that part of the delay is due to an internal dispute over who should pay for the fix, Mazda or Jatco. My hunch is that the lawyers are involved, that's what's taking so long.
-brianV
I think Jatco is the 3rd largest supplier in the world, providing transmissions to virtually every major manufacturer for one or more models. As I understand it, they actually enjoy a good reputation for quality, originally growing out of a joint venture with Nissan if I'm not mistaken.
I would be surprised if Mazda was the only manufacturer affected.
-brianV
if I were an owner with this problem, i'd probably research it hard though.
you've raised some important points. i didn't say it couldn't be software related. infact, it could be made worse by software.
if i have it correct, there are reports of other people not having the problem at all. other people are experiencing it to lesser or more degree.
that doesn't sound like software does it?
i mean to say, if it were software, then one would think everyone would have the same problem, and it would have started from day one with all the cars.
sure sure. people have different driving habits. but, a person's driving habits don't change much, so if the system "learned" a certain pattern, and now all of a sudden there is this controllability issue, something is up.
someone even said they were told to let their car learn their driving pattern...and after driving and waiting (while something is supposed to be learning?), they've still got an issue.
granted, i consider it completely possible perhaps there are feedback limit switches (ie on the solenoids or the valves or mechanical control arms or whatever is being moved about), or their are some other external sensor inputs, which are sensed by the controller, and inturn that affects the controller's subsequent command of the tranny. they could have gone marginal to bad.
however, if that were the case, i wonder if that could be fixed with a TCM software upgrade. i doubt that.
it just doesn't fit does it?
for example, you wouldn't modify the ABS programming to compensate for a faulty wheel sensor would you? you wouldn't roll that modification out to a fleet of vehicles with no ABS problem...
if i had to hop on a train without more information, i'd choose tomj5's train.
tomj5's assertion could be tested. you could take a tranny which is shifting hard, and flush the heck out of it. if the shifting is greatly improved, i think that would support the general hypothesis he and i think some others were proposing.
remember, i'm not a mechanical person.
Trannies are fluid Amplifers (a small force controls large force.) The solenoids control the gates that control the fluid hydraulics...
There is two possibilities for problems...
1. Fault with the control electronics...
2. Fault with the hydraulic(fluid) acutators..
What to do... Gather all known working models and check differences. Example: Tranny works in most MPVs with no problems. Therefore software and electronics being the same (?) it is unlikely problem is electroncs related... (Reflashing software doesn't work).
Notice that many late model cars are having same problem not just Mazda... What is going on???
There is a new (cheap) way to make gears (precision casting not the old expensive hand machineing method) Even motorcycles are having problems with these new gears. When made the gears are rough and require extensive break in to smooth them out... Interesting..
Therefore at this time the most likley course of action is to test the contamnation theory by back flushing the tranny and see if it shifts smoother.. If it does then flush it again to see if it improves even more... Honda has this policy in place for their "hard" trannies..
Of Course Mazda knows this and is balking at paying for the flushing(labor intensive)...
Dealers don't work for nothing....
Maybe I am wrong, but TEST and VERIFY!!!!
Tj
So, yes, people experiencing different problems, and different degrees of the same problem, does sound like a software problem to me. It also sounds like a lot of mechanical problems, too. It could be either or both.
Variability in software response depends on what the inputs to the software are, the size of the range of values for each input, and the complexity of the logic applied to the values or combination of values in question. I don't have any idea how complex a TCM is, so I simply can't say. "Learning" implies that the logic applied to the input values changes over time, but it is not the only potential source of intermittent software problems by far.
Tomj5's points are well-taken. If we had this problem with our van, I would spend the $150 to get the transmission power flushed and see what happens, after "dinging" the dealer to cover the cost if possible.
But if it were that simple, then Mazda should already know how to fix this, and they're just being "penny wise and pound foolish", stringing people along. This has been a lot of that at Ford and elsewhere in the past (the Pinto and Explorer come to mind...) I may be naive, or just overly reluctant to embrace cynism, but I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
-brianV
Another mantra we live by: "Know what you know, and what you don't know, and never confuse the two."
You have information available to you that I don't have. Your hypothesis that the change in manufacturing technique has led to increased and unpredictable contamination levels across otherwise identical units is certainly compelling.
I would add that the interface between the electronics and mechanicals is a third potential source of problems, and in my view, the most complex part of the system.
Complexity is the enemy of reliability.
-brianV
While I was there, I inquired about the 2-3 shift flare problem. My dealer claims they have no cases of this, for what it's worth.
They do know about the TSB regarding the shift range selector (had that done on my van right after we got it). But no cases of hard shifting that they can't fix with the selector switch adjustment.
This dealer is part of a large nationwide chain and seems reasonably sharp.
-brianV
i too perform software test for complex systems. i tend to take the designs of other engineers and find failure modes that they never thought of.
i was only attempting to provide an alternate method of looking at the problem...tomj5 was doing just fine by himself...but i was offering up another viewpoint that might trigger / solicit someone else's expertise or insight.
nothing more. nothing less. i admitted this topic is not within my domain of expertise, but i was hoping to contribute to an educated dialog none-the-less.
for me, it is an interesting problem; a transmission operability issue is something i hope i never experience with my van. other makes have had their share of issues. i am aware of manufacturers being supplied by third parties.
i never said it *wasn't* SW related...
if it's a problem with other sensors going into the TCM, then it's not SW, so i won't conceed that to you. to patch for a faulty/marginal transducer seems a slippery slope.
anyway, doesn't it seem to you that if a SW patch were going to do the trick here, it would have been developed and tested a long time ago?
regards.
So if there were a requirement like "valve A can never be open when valve C is open", as in my example, then the software is required to never *command* that combination, irrespective of the sensor input, unless the sensor input is out of range or somesuch. In the latter case, I would strive for a design that is robust in the sense that it makes "safe" decisions and alarms when a sensor goes out of range. That's the "limp home" mode they talk about.
Also, if valve C is stuck or slow, say, and we have no means to detect its actual state, then it's not a SW problem, as I'm sure you'd agree.
I'm wondering if there aren't unforeseen data constellations in the inputs that cause the software to make illegal commands or illegal command sequences. Defensive code written to detect these constellations and act accordingly would fix such a problem.
If they're using embedded Java, they might have some object-oriented related stuff going on, where an object is acting on a message when it shouldn't and getting the software into a bad state. That doesn't explain why it keeps happening after a reflash or reset though.
I'm liking tomj5's theory more and more as we think this through...
-brianV
"Thank you again for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.
We have been told by our Product Engineers that this is not causing damage to the transmission. This is more of an annoyance at this point.
The dealers will be contacted once a fix is available. This will more than likely be a software fix."
Steve.
"We have been told by our Product Engineers that this is not causing damage to the transmission. This is more of an annoyance at this point.
The dealers will be contacted once a fix is available. I certainly understand your frustration, and I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you."
Ha ha! I'll bet they have a list of statements to choose from to answer people's questions with, just pick one from the "drop down".
Mine's going in Monday even though I know they probably can't fix it. I demanded an appointment so that at least I can say they tried and failed to fix it. Who know's, maybe they'll install a magic TCM that works!!
To top it all off, my husband ran over some metal object with it and blew out a tire. Went to Tire Discounters and they said it's hard to find, and it'll cost $166 to replace. Boy, we're off to a good start with this automobile!
you have to read svmazda's post in the other thread (problems and solutions).
if there were states in a very complex state machine that a user only got into after months of driving (and system "learning" (heh heh), then sure, i'd be with you that there is the remote possibility the reps suggesting "give it time to learn your driving habits" might be offering useful information...
there are of course a few problems with it. if you create a program with unforseen states with seemingly no exit - your system is on orders of complexity too complex for the automobile industry. also - it is fundamentally broken.
back to svmazda's post - if they are swapping TCMs but the results are no-joy, can we rule out the "learning" portion of the picture? can we rule out constellation spaces?
yes, as you said...it wouldn't support what continues to happen after a reflash, a reset (or an entire new TCM), would it?
The TCM just controls the tranny timing based on responses from the engine parameters, RPM, Temp, groundspeed, and even brakes... This is how the driver "communicates" with the tranny. The software is really very dumb. Along the lines of a smart house thermostat... Someday we will be able to "select" by a mouse what kind of tranny performance we want... But not now...
Start with the simple things first (Is tranny clean? Yes or No) To many MPVs are working good to be a manufacturing fault with software or electronics.... Possible, but a long shot....
The so called new code, sounds like they are trying to modify code to cover up the real problem.. The wide range of shifting roughness is typical of particle contamnation in trannies... Boy,I would like to see the code that can compansate for random failures!! That sounds like "Terminator" code!!! (The Movie)
Test and Verify!!! (Small moves, Sparks, Small moves. (From the movie "Contact"))
Otherwise, just sit around and Cry in our Beer dear! (I like that song by HW jr.)
Tj
Here is the result:
1) The tech rep completely dismissed Edmunds.com comments--couldn't care less
2) He was able to reproduce two instances of "different shifts" during his test drive, appx 40 miles.
3) He recited what seemed to me a Mazda script that went something like "Mazda MPVs are experiencing occasional hard shifts and we are working on a solution. There is no current solution"
4)He said he downloaded data from my van to a disk and would send it to Mazda in CA for evaluation
5) I asked what the time frame would be for a solution--and this is were it got kinda strange--he started to say how the transmission was shifting normally and that he was going out of his way to accomodate me....
6) The dealer refused to give a summary of their findings to me in writing
Well what can I say, having the hard shift "thing" is one thing but dealing with Orwellian language from Mazda is another.
I am quite frustrated at this point.
That is called a "Dog and Pony Show" I have set through a bunch of them....
I would clap and say That was very entertaining, now let's get on with the real business. You should have seen their faces. I was the Govt Rep and controlled the money.....
They know exactly what is wrong! Just don't want to pay for it... Cars are not rocket science...
There is a badddd Smell Of FFFFOOOOOORRRRRDDDDD!!!!!!!!!
Well, We are on our own gang! That answers that question, We did buy Fords.....
Tj
tomj5 - You haven't heard of embedded Java, I guess. It's used in a lot of industrial controllers these days, microwaves, ECM's, etc. Has nothing to do with the web.
audia8q - If Mazda Corporate wants to be treated with respect, then they have to earn that respect, as I'm sure you'll agree. The communication strategy followed thusfar with their customers is abominable. No one in their right mind will believe that the tranny shifting as hard as described will not cause damage, nor should they. You might just as well try telling people that the sun rises in the north.
Rather than getting into characterizing the statement from Mazda above, I'll turn the logic around instead. If Mazda believes this is just a nuisance issue, then there is no reason why they can't offer an extended warranty on the transmission to everyone affected. Afterall, there's been no damage done, right ? No damage means no business risk to Mazda, so it should be a freebie. Imagine the goodwill they could buy for free.
Taking an aggressive CYA tack with people is what leads to class action litigation, and understandably so (No, I am not advocating that course of action to anyone. Litigation is an absolute morass to be avoided whenever possible). These folks just want their cars to run properly, and to be treated fairly. That's not too much to ask.
Please don't take our frustration with Mazda personally. You've been a voice of moderation and reason on these boards, and we appreciate your input.
-brianV
The customer reps are just the guys in the middle between you and management. Their job is to keep you from getting to the top management at Mazda.
If Mazda can fix this problem with the cars already sold and it won't cost them a fortune, they will. They might just make the changes for the cars on the production line to prevent this in the future and not address the problems with the MPV's already out there.
It's all about profits.
Mazda shouldn't say anything regarding damage to the transmission then. I'm tired of being told that the "sun rises in the north" in the name of protecting profits. It may be common, even standard practice, but it's not "OK". Protecting profits is just a ready excuse. It's no justification for mistreating your customers.
They're sacrificing long-term profits by taking this course. But those aren't on the books yet, so they don't count, strangely.
In my opinion, this is a form of mismanagement that contributes to the severity of the problem.
'nuff said.
-brianV
I expect Mazda to stand behind their product and to do the "right thing". Some people have had this problem for months. They are legitimately concerned that their transmissions have been damaged by what amounts to a manufacturing defect. They have the right to expect Mazda to stand behind their product, and to handle their cases appropriately, perhaps quietly, on an individual basis, but appropriately nonetheless.
I expect Mazda to be honest and forthright with us, their customers, at all times. Telling people that a serious problem is just a nuisance issue is not only dishonest, but offensive. This is not acceptable, and we should tell them so.
Idealistic ? Yes. What's wrong with that ? Expect more. We should hold decision makers in all walks of life to higher standards. But it won't happen unless we set those expectations, and are prepared to hold ourselves to the same standards.
There are many things that Mazda could say which would be appropriate, and truthful, without making them incur legal risk.
And that's ultimately my biggest issue with this whole fiasko, personally. Mistakes happen. Complex machines come to market with problems. That's unfortunate, but not the issue, really. The issue is how they're responding to it - or not.
-brianV
It's always something....
Oh yeah, whenever the power windows get balky in my Quest, I remind myself that there's a bunch of Ford switches in it :-)
Steve, Host
The best solution to this possible problem is for people who want to buy the MPV, call Mazda and the dealers and tell them that they are holding off their purchase until a solution is found. But, they aren't going to wait very long, there happens to be other vans out there on the market they could also purchase.
If the MPV sales fall off because people refuse buy Mazda, Mazda will have to get off the fence and find a fix or extend the warranty to provide protection to the owners.
As far as being truthful with customers, in their eye's, being vague and giving the run-a-round is being truthful.