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An example - look at the C&D test of the Accord, compared to the near-luxury sedans in the same issue. It's a couple of months back. 0-60 the Accord is up there with the best of them.
But then look at braking and handling. Poorest numbers of the bunch.
That can be downright dangerous, to have an imbalance like that. The Accord doesn't have the brakes to handle that quick a car, nor can it handle that kind of power when the roads become twisty.
Chassis/suspension, then brakes, then engine, in that order. The Accord only has the engine.
-juice
But Hondas have been notorious for relatively weak brakes in their cars (excepting S2000 and Acura NSX).
Later...AH
I agree with andmoon that the WRX can lead to a false sense of security/invincibility, since it seems like it can accelerate, stop or steer out of any kind of trouble. Conversely, in the Maxima you're always aware of it's size and weight, and thus its limitations. Naturally the WRX setup is preferrable and the lesser of two evils, but dangerous in a different way nevertheless.
The best way I can describe it is, in the Maxima you know when you're doing something stupid, but in the WRX, maybe not so much...
I am looking to upgrade my sway bars but can't decide if I want to just increase the rears to 20mm or upgrade both the rear and fronts together.
I've recently taken up autocrossing, a form of moderate speed "racing" around cones in a large parking lot. Sounds silly to the uninformed, perhaps, but it is difficult, nonetheless.
In a recent very wet event, I beat four out of five WRX cars in the rain --- in my, generally, uncompetitive '02 Honda Civic Si.
Now, I would have thought the Subie would be the best answer for the wet conditions, yet it wasn't, apparently.
You see, I can't get the power down in the dry --- I'm just spinning my front tires --- and the wet should have been worse, still, I'd have thought. The Subies should have trounced me with their AWD. They didn't.
I don't understand.
I want to understand, because I'm thinking seriously of getting a more competitive autox car, and the Subie is one of the options I'm considering.
The Subie is a great car, no question about it, but I'm wondering if it's really the best choice for autocrossing.
Would after-market go-fast bits make the Subie better in the wet?
Maybe the normally aspirated 2.5 RS is a better choice for this bizzare business of racing around cones in parking lots?
It's odd, but it _is_ fun! :-)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That's not impossible. Like jpnm said, "the variance in driver skill was probably far greater than the variance in cars. It is only as the driver skill levels equalize that car differences come into play."
<<Would after-market go-fast bits make the Subie better in the wet?>>
Yes, tire choice for the wet lot plays a role. I find the TOYO Proxies RAs grips very well on wet.
<<Maybe the normally aspirated 2.5 RS is a better choice for this bizzare business of racing around cones in parking lots?>>
Between the WRX and RS, the RS is the better choice chasing cones
At the end of the day, it all boils down to the Driver.
The go-fast-bits is taken out of the equation if the driver can't take advantage of them. Heck, there's this guy with an earlier model Civic I've seen eating up WRXes at the AutoX [time wise].
-Dave
Hypov and I drive the same exact car at auto-x(same as in share the car) and often times One is near the top and the other is near the bottom of our run-class.
-mike
-mike
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Perfect example... I'm the other near the bottom
-Dave
Will Subaru consider it as 'competition' if a warantee issue arises?
Thanks,
Don
And that's exactly what one very well sorted out WRX and a great driver did.
Here's a chart of cars and classes and the results from last year's nationals.
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Lists/2002/stockc.html
http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/prosolo/2002/finale/results.htm- l
I'm diligent about resetting the trip-o-meters and always fill the tank all the way (never partially as it's more costly of time)
Granted, the majority of my driving is highway (out of my 28 mile commute 26 miles are on a highway) but that sounds a bit high.
Anybody else getting numbers close to this?
I'll keep watching to make sure this isn't operator error.
DjB
I also got 35mpg in my LL bean Outback a few months ago while on vacation. I'm assuming the gas pump was wildly inaccurate, because there's no way that could be real. I think I got a good deal on gas!
Craig
Here are two of many orgs.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/
http://www.scca.com/
Warranty issues. Not to my knowledge.
I'll those who have participated longer than I have fill in the blank(s) on that
-Dave
I DO NOT race. No matter how much intimidation is attempted. People are killed racing, and you can't correct that with any amount of money or justification. There are some very dissapointed Mustang drivers around here.
I usually get 24 - 28 mpg. My commute is 32 miles, almost all freeway. This is fairly spirited driving, moderate accelerations, and cruising speeds often approaching 80mph... just goin' with the flow!
I have about 24000 miles on my wagon.
My mileage improved noticeably when I switched back to summer tires in the spring and removed the ski rack from the roof.
I can't stand those guys, and give them a wide berth. If I'm in the Outback, I just back way off. If I'm in the WRX, I pass them and get the heck away. Some of those trucks may be fast, but it's usually just exhaust rumble....
Craig
“You are, after all, talking about an activity that is about 90% driver. Maybe the rain scared them nonetheless or maybe they were just bad drivers. . .”
And hypov notes:
“At the end of the day, it all boils down to the Driver.”
I like the sound of this. <LOL!> Please. . . do continue!
And jpnm wrote:
“If you are beginning autocrossing, chances are the people you were competing against were also.”
This is the Milwaukee Region, with lots of folks from Chicago and elsewhere competing. This is the Big Time, with numerous National Champions arising from this bunch. They’re very serious, and very quick, make no mistake about it. Of the four WRXs I beat, three were S-Mod, and one was DS. I don’t know about their experience, though. I should look that up.
Our first event of the year had over 200 participants. Granted, there is a full range of experience levels, and I’m unable to say anything about the WRX drivers in the most recent rain event, in the FWD Street Tire category (indexed, of course) that I ran in, apart from the winner, who was driving a WRX. And he won convincingly, with a remarkable margin of victory: 3.857 seconds raw time over another DS-classed car.
(Maybe he’ll permit me to ride along on one of his early runs in the future.)
I did not win my class, you understand, I just faired better than I might have hoped. Many other FWD cars beat the WRXs, too. I was surprised that the other WRXs did so poorly, when I would have thought the AWD would be a major advantage. Apparently, it’s not quite the advantage I imagined, at least not chasing cones in the wet.
Actually, seeing the weather forecast the previous evening, I was hoping for rain. Rain can be a great equalizer, especially for us underpowered cars. Considering the outcome, I’ll _pray_ for rain in the future. ;-)
As a number of you have suggested, there are many possible explanations, not least of which is that I was running the OEM, skinny Michelins, which may have been to my advantage in the wet. Although, everyone was telling me that the Falkens, etc., do quite well in the wet, and should outperform my stock tires, so. . . I don’t know what to make of it all.
And jpnm graciously continues:
“So, the variance in driver skill was probably far greater than the variance in cars.”
This is excellent! This is an especially pleasant and agreeable interpretation of events. After a beer, or two, I happily drift off into a reverie, fancying myself to be Der Regenmeister! It’s a wonderful world, filled with possibility.
And emissaries from Enzo (Ferrari) will soon be entreating me to sign a contract for next season. Ah, yes. . . You see, Enzo always placed great store in a driver who was quick in the wet; it’s likely that was the reason he hired Gilles (Villeneuve) to drive F1 straight out of Formula Atlantics. And. . . now there’s ME(!), here I am, and, and. . .
Oh.
Sorry. I was doing it again, wasn’t I?
<sigh>
My momentary success in the rain has gone to my head. Please, you mustn’t encourage me. I’m not well, my friends. ;-)
But fear not. The next dry event should bring about an abrupt recovery, rudely awakening me from my foolish reveries.
hpov wrote:
“Between the WRX and RS, the RS is the better choice chasing cones
That’s what I’ve been wondering. Would most of you concur?
I’ve seen a number of folks suggesting that the Mini Cooper is a better autocrossing choice than the supercharged Cooper S, for example. That seems like a similar decision.
I’m thinking the RS, like the base Cooper, might be a bit lighter, and have more torque down low where it’s really needed in this bizarre business of chasing cones in parking lots.
“<<Hypov and I drive the same exact car at auto-x(same as in share the car) and often times One is near the top and the other is near the bottom of our run-class.>>
Perfect example... I'm the other near the bottom
<LOL!> I take your point! It’s good to maintain a sense of humor in this business, don’t you think? :-)
So, tell me, does he talk to you? Does he tell you all of his secrets to getting around so quickly? I’ll bet he doesn’t. Not everything. Not The Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but The Truth. <heh>
I ask because I’ve noted a degree of reluctance in others to share much beyond general stuff. Everyone has been agreeable and friendly, willing to share and help --- up to a point. After that, they become more “reticent,” shall we say. :-)
Last year, while a mere spectator, I asked a fellow, who was tweaking his tire pressures on his Integra Type R, what pressures he was running. He didn’t want to tell me.
Recently, we were walking the course with an experienced veteran who’s also an instructor. He’s a good fellow. I’m asking questions, and at one point, walking the course, I stopped and asked about a potentially quick segment, “How would _you_ get through here?”
He replied, “As fast as I can!”
“Geeze! It’s only our third event. We’re no threat. Throw us a bone!” I complained. He still wouldn’t tell us anything.
A multi-time National Champion rode along with me on my first lap of my first event. I didn’t know the course at all. (My 55-year-old brain is a sieve. It’s a problem.) I was hoping for some navigation assistance, and some tips and tricks, you know? He was largely silent on my run, the “silence” punctuated by violent swearing from _me_ --- “Excrement!” (or something like that) --- as I blew past the wrong side of gates. I returned to the grid, and we sat silently for a moment. I said, “Sorry about that.” And he said to me, “All _you_ need to do is learn the course.” And he got out and walked away.
I’m thinking to myself, “Ummm. . . Wait! Come back! I don’t even know what happened! Help me!” Maybe he didn’t like my swearing. I dunno. ;-)
However, at the recent rain event, I was watching as he unloaded his car from one of those enclosed, racecar haulers. (It had checkered-flag floor tile. “Way cool!” as the kids would say.) I asked him, “Do you give Slow People rides?” He agreed to take me along, which was nice of him. Alas, I was unable to take advantage of my opportunity since I was working Timing and Scoring during his heat, and then the event was terminated at midpoint because of the appalling conditions.
It’s all good fun.
And grimly serious, too. :-)
Thanks to paisan and mgreene1 for the useful URLs.
With respect to warranty issues with Subaru, I wouldn’t expect any problem, since Subaru _sponsors_ autocross events. Besides, as fast as it is, it’s still not very hard on the car. High-speed, open track autocross events might be another matter.
Speaking of which, I assume that’s what’s pictured on your website home page, isn’t it, paisan? Did you notice the odd camber of the right rear wheel on the red Civic hatch, number 516, on your page? I’ll bet if you “looked” at this from the other side of the car, you’d see his left rear wheel is well clear of the ground! Just like the old Rabbits in the Bilstein Cup, etc.
You’re a pleasant lot in here; I like your generosity and optimism. I should visit more often! :-)
Thanks to all, for your kindness, and for sharing your knowledge.
-Kauai (who’s contemplating Subies reigning in the rain :-)
Tires: R compounds in the cold/wet will be very ineffective compared to a hot sunny summer day.
Class: An RS will likely do very well in G-class, where there is less competition than say D-class where the WRX runs. Same goes for Mini-Cooper v. Mini-Cooper S
Auto-x is a game, to do well you need to know and use the rules to your advantage classing is one of those rules that can really help you out.
Another factor is too-much power, I know several people who can't handle the power of a WRX and do better driving honda Civic Hatchbacks than their WRX due to the limiting of power that the hatchback has.
-mike
-mike
They are telling him they can order the car for him for delivery in June. Any ideas about what options are essential, pricing, etc. would be appreciated!
thanks, woody
Trying to use the rules to my best advantage is good advice, and is why I’ve been asking these questions, of course. It’s an interesting puzzle. What to buy, if the primary (but not only) concern is competitiveness in autox? There are a number of interesting choices beyond the two, apparently, obvious ones: Early 90’s NA Toyota MR2 run in E Stock, and a Mini Cooper run in H Stock. What car, and then what mods, to run in what class? It’s a real head-scratcher.
Running lower tire pressures hadn’t occurred to me; I’d been told that higher pressures were better in the wet. I was running 48/38 F/R. Hmmm. . . I wonder how much quicker I might have been?
You’ve all been very helpful. Thanks; I appreciate it. :-)
Next, even tho I've only used the air cond. a couple of times, it really seems kinda weak in the cooling dept. Has anyone else came up with the same conclusion? Also, it REALLY does sap what little low end power we have,right?
Thanks for your responses, & I look forward to more chatting with all of you!!
Freddy
They use the same exact tires (16"-205, BFGoodrich KDWS) at the same tire pressure. The WRX beat both cars in Dry and handily beat both cars in wet. They basically said that the WRX performed identical in wet as it did in dry, while the other two car's performance deteriorated slightly when performing in wet.
FYI
When I was shopping for my WRX in January, the highest VINs were in the 10000-11000 range, so I know they made at least that many 03s. My WRX had a build date of 8/03 or 9/03 and was in the 5000-6000 VIN range if I remember right.
Craig
- I am impressed! How were you able to get a car from the future???
Here's a previous post from rexaroo on VIN.
rexaroo Jun 18, 2002 5:40pm
I just peeked at the tag, it's a build date of 8/02, and the VIN ends in 057XY.
Craig
-juice
Has anyone here tried this? If so, will the recommended 48" crossbars work or do you have to buy longer crossbars?
DaveM
Some people like to have the cost of the wheels rolled into the financing of the car. Others (like myself) would rather save a little money and get different wheels. I bought Prodrive wheels (OEM in the UK) and paid $836 for the set. Subaru-parts.com sells the $1,700 wheels for $1,400 shipped.
I really wish that the '03's had the All Weather Package. Heated side view mirrors are great for clearing ice and even drying up rain.
-Dennis
The Legacy wagon is getting a big moonroof and more power, so it might steal away some WRX wagon sales.
-juice
I wanted a red sedan with the Premium package. I got one, but I paid
I really like the optional 5-spoke 17" OEM wheels, but they're around $1300 a set at most discount parts sites. Add another $600 for decent tires and that's a lot of $$.
Craig
It was the very last set of 17" P1's that the Tire Rack had. They were selling P1's for $209 each and P7's for ~$180.
-Dennis
Search for their Subaru Inventory, and filter the results with 'body'. The WRXs should be at the end, and they're at invoice. They are selling STIs at MSRP too. I'm not sure how good their service is, but its a good bargaining chip for dealers in the MD area. The other dealer (Heritage Subaru, not too fond of their service though) said they'd honor that price, but I'll find out in 2 weeks if they're telling the truth.