Okay, the stage one is worth every penny. Only negative is the subaru warranty issue.
If a simple reflash can do so much...while keeping the stock safety features (knock/retard timing etc.) intact, why didn't subaru do this in the first place? I have heard the safety margin theory but don't buy it. Is there some hidden risk that comes with the increase in performance? If increased performance is pushing the limits of the drivetrain then Subaru should have at least programed in the smoothness.
Don, How's the torque improvement? I was thinking of buying a wagon but found the lag to be almost intolerable. Does the turbo spool faster? Do you definititely notice the improved horsepower? I don't want to do a lot of modding, but would like something like this that you can drop in and forget.
Spent most of yesterday driving all over northeast PA on sales meetings. Over the 369 mile round-trip my WRX used 11.55 gallons of the good stuff, equating to a hair over 31mpg.
Like some of you might be, I thought maybe, just maybe, there was something wrong with the trip odometer that would cause it to count miles too quickly. But after several highway runs during which I'd match mile-marker numbers, I'm positive my numbers are correct.
Don, re: AccessECU -- more driving impressions please!
Kevin (2centz): If you send in your ECU for a reflash now, Cobb will sell you the AccessPort hardware after they release it for the $100 price difference. This is common practice amongst tuners to charge just the price difference when buyers upgrade to the next stage of tune.
Thomas: nice choice! As you certainly know after your research, the S-03s are widely regarded in WRX circles as the best-performing summer tire for our cars. I'm running the new ContiExtremeContacts on 17" Rota Formel rims, and also have the Dunlop WinterSport M2's on stock rims. I've been very happy with both, although the sacrifice in absolute grip with the all-season Continentals is evident if you push them hard enough. Having said that, for me the cost savings ($87 apiece vs. ~$150 as I recall) and protection against unexpected inclement weather was worth the tradeoff.
"05.22.03Lancer Evolution parts? – We are proud to announce that we will NOT be offering any EVO products...ever. Same goes for the Dodge SRT-4 or whatever the next new hot sport compact car is...unless it's a Subaru. We are getting tons of emails and calls on this so want to make it as clear as possible. We have always been a tuning company for only SUBARU vehicles. Now, and forever."
The torque improvement IS there but not as far down the powerband as I would like it. Then again it is a low compression 2 liter motor. Take a look at the stock vs stage 1&2 dyno graphs. (Cobbtuning.com) My butt dyno results reflect the graphs posted.
There are certain 90 degree turns that I now take a gear higher without lugging the engine.
The stage 2 really brings things down the rpm range but you need a turbo back exhaust.
Another give away that your ecu was reflashed is the Cobb sticker on it!
What does the Stage 1 reflash do to gas milage? It could be that Subaru decided to stop at 227HP to meet EPA requirements.
However, it is pretty obvious that there is some power left on the table with the stock ECU. Just like VW slowly upped the HP with their 1.8T (through bigger blowers, new ECU maps and some intake improvements), we might see subtle increases with the WRX towards the end of it's current model iteration.
I like that idea of them being solely dedicated to subaru, but I can't see that as a good business plan. AZP Installs focuses on subies as well, but we plan to branch out a bit just so that we aren't pigeon holed...
Ken--when I called them about this, Cobb told me mpg will suffer at first as guys try out the new improved power After that, they say mpg will come back to almost where it was before the upgrade. And like andmoon mentioned, the car drives smoother-- you don't have to downshift to a lower gear as often, so that might help too.
The 227hp is to meet EPA emissions and also because the U.S. engine doesn't have forged pistons, sodium-filled exhaust valves, hardened crankshaft, etc., and so is only reliable up to about 260-280hp. Subaru knows we are going to juice up the engine, so they are starting us out from the lower base of 227hp, IMO.
>Another give away that your ecu was reflashed is the Cobb sticker on it! More reason to reflash using the AccessPort!
rexaroo you make many good points, but it bears mentioning that Mike Shields at SPD is thought by many "in the know" to be pretty overly conservative in his tuning philosophy. Furthermore, I'd suggest that as you approach/exceed the 280HP mark, the tranny and driveline is more susceptible to failure than engine internals.
Nevertheless, I'd say anyone thinking about modding a Subaru should read the SPD site from beginning to end, as it is highly informative. One should just bear in mind that he seems to be in the minority with many of the limitations and HP thresholds he recommends.
(At least that's what I want to believe since I'm going the turboback + AccessECU Stage 2 route!)
prayerfor--you're right, SPD Tuning is a lot more conservative than Cobb, which is why I emailed Shields and asked him what he thought about the Cobb Stage 1.
He said Trey Cobb was smart enough to keep the turbo boost below 15.5 psi and the exhaust gas temperature down, so the reflash sounded to him like a good way to upgrade.
Didn't ask about the Stage 2 because personally I'm not comfortable pushing the envelope that far. But if you decide to do it, it would be interesting to hear how it goes.
The problem is, if Subaru had given us a 260hp engine to begin with, they wouldn't have met the EPA emission standards. Also, the U.S. engine is only reliable up to about 260-280 hp without doing some major beefing up of the pistons and valve-train,etc. (OK, that last statement is open to some debate, but based on what I've read, I believe it to be true.) If Subaru had given us a 260 hp car to start with, any chip upgrades would put the engine into unsafe territory as far as reliability goes.
Look at the EVO--it has 271 hp but also has forged pistons, natrium-filled exhaust valves for better cooling, and a bunch of other goodies to keep it reliable at that higher power output. Our Rexes only have cast pistons and standard valve materials, so our safe horsepower limit is lower. But that's why our Rexes cost 5 grand less than the Evo And our cars weigh less, which means a Cobb Stage 1 Rex could be competitive with a stock Evo.
rexaroo -- I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the collective wisdom of the folks that do the the "big" HP mods: new turbos, high-flow fuel pumps and injectors, front-mount intercoolers, and so forth. These guys aren't opening up their engines and replacing pistons or valves, AFAIK, and many are in the 350 or even 400+ HP range. I know several have blown clutches and/or trannies, but I haven't heard of any catastrophic engine failures, have you?
Not questioning your position. I have to guess that you'd call this a recipe for disaster. In the grand scheme of WRX tuning, I still think I'll be on the safe side of the fence with a basic Stage 2 setup putting out ~280.
are pretty hilarious. On Nasioc.com they call it "whoring" out your Rex. Hard to believe they aren't upgrading the internals, tho, to get that kind of power. If not, then our little Subie engines are pretty remarkable.
Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying don't do the Stage 2 upgrade--only that 285 hp is a little outside my comfort zone for my car. If you feel comfortable with it, by all means go for it. Like I said, it would be good to hear your feedback on how you like it.
I seldom contribute to this group, but I know I've seen some discussions about tires to replace the RE92's. In fact, a few posts up there is a discussion of the SO-3's IIRC.
What I'm looking for is a good all season replacement for the RE92. Currently, I'm looking at the Michelin Pilots and the Dunlop SP5000. I live in the Portland OR area, so I need good overall traction. Ideally, I don't want more road noise than the OEM's provide, and I would like good tread life... in as much as that's possible with Ultra High Performance tires.
Aric--both the Mich. Pilot A/S and SP5000's are excellent choices. Also, the new Continental ContiExtremeContact is getting rave reviews as an all-season, especially in the wet--has low tread noise and is 400 rated for wear. They have them at tirerack.com.
Just bought some rota wheels off e-bay. Has Nitto nt450 z tires on them. Anyone familiar with these tires?
Cobb stage 1 gets better each day (3rd day now). I think the boost comes on 300 or so rpm sooner. I used to occasionally have a little shake at idle and that is gone. I think the turbo got louder/higher pitched. The motor sounds a little like that turbo japanese car in cannon ball run...well it is a turbo japanese car! I am thinking of removing the air silencer to see if I can lower the pitch of the sound.
On their site, Cobb says you can use the Stage 1 reflash with a cat-back exhaust. This is just right for my needs, as this ups the power to 265hp or so. If you do a turbo-back exhaust, then you will need a different map and that brings you up to Stage 2 and 285hp. They also do custom maps for whatever mods you already have installed:
"Our Stage 1 map will work perfectly well with a stock car as well as a car with a K&N filter and cat-back exhaust. More significant modifications - turbos, fuel injectors, turbo-back exhausts, etc - do require unique maps. Simply swapping out a stock air filter for a K&N filter however isn't going to pose a significant enough change to warrant a unique map."
Scoobysport and Stromung have deep, mellow sounds and sort of medium loud. With a Borla, your Rex will sound like a big bad V-8--everyone (including the police) will hear you coming a mile away Prodrive oval tip has a nice sound and is not much louder than stock. Also, TurboXS supposedly makes a nice unit. Have not heard it, but others have said it is just right if you want something just a little louder than stock.
Thanks for pointing out Mike Shield's website. I hadn't checked it out in a few years (actually before he became ill) and was suprised at all the WRX content he posted.
My big take away was that it's the relatively poor quality of US fuel that limits the EJ20 engine.
... I don't actually know. I trusted the selections available on Tirerack (only selected from those on site the listed for make/model/year/size) and at the Discount Tire dealer (who ordered thru Tirerack).
I emailed Tirerack with questions and verbally inquired at Discount Tire about fit/weight, etc., but didn't specifically ask about the off-set.
Got some rain to drive in the day after installation and took the car thru a tight off ramp to compare the feel to stock set-up: I'm liking the change so far. Car does wander on every bit of road feedback, but I'm sort of intrigued by the incredible amount of stick and feedback I'm getting.
Call up tirerack directly on the 800 number listed on their site, and ask them what the offset is. You can also ask them questions about the weight of the wheel, whether you need hubcentric rings with the wheel etc. They have all that application-specific information in their database.
They would only tell me that the MM wheels displayed on the website had an "appropriate" offset for the WRX. However, Discount Tires also displays rims that are "recommended" for the WRX, but the offset is totally wrong (like +42mm, which is way off). Knowing how oddball Subaru's offset is, I want to know the exact number and verify it myself. So, I have passed on the TireRack recommended rims thus far because they don't publish exact offset numbers.
Thomas, if you ever get a chance to peek at the backside of the rims, the offset should be stamped on there somewhere (usually in an oval-shaped tag near the outer edge of the wheel, should say something like "ET53").
The correct offsets for the WRX are:
16x6.5: +55mm (stock) 17x7: +53mm
I think you can go minus 1 to 2 mm from these numbers and be OK. Anything too far off runs the risk of improperly loading the bearings and/or rubbing.
Here is the reply to my questions about the Mille Miglia Action wheels (7x17) and the Bridgestone Pole Position S-03 tires (215/45/17) I received from a Tirerack rep:
"All of the wheels we sell are O.E. quality or better in materials, finish and materials. When you search by the vehicle on our website it will automatically sort through all of the wheels and only show you models that are set up for your car... I do know that the SO Pole Position from Bridgestone has performed the best in our testing here and in our customer surveys (which are posted unedited on our website). It is by far the best for long term consistency in traction as well. That would be my top pick for a Summer tire."
As far as my purchasing from Discount Tire, they ordered these exact wheels and tires from Tirerack, shipped to their store location, and placed them on my 2002 WRX wagon.
Should I be concerned? The car feels fine, but I wouldn't know what else to look for at this point.
I don't think you should be concerned, sorry if I implied that. I'm just looking for some hard info on the aftermarket wheels, and haven't been able to find it so far. So, if you get the chance to poke your head down low and peek at the offset, it would really satisfy my curiosity.
Well, they just arrived last week at the dealers in Western Canada (only for customers who pre-ordered last winter, of course - we're getting 300 or so for all of Canada). The dealers have appearantly "colluded" and all are charging $8000 Canadian over sticker. I personally don't play these sorts of games so they can keep the cars. They're nice, but not that nice.
Don--I have a set of NT450's on my Jetta GLX. I was looking for quality all-season tires that were cheap ($67 each + free shipping). These tires fit the bill. I am happy with them. Rain performance is far superior to the stock Eagle GA's. I have heard good things about them performance wise from other owners as well. My only knock would be that they have "Extreme Performance" written on the sidewall. At least it isn't in white.
What was the mileage on your WRX when you went with the Cobb Stage 1?
I reset my ECU this morning, with about 2400 miles on the car. It just hadn't been feeling powerful like I remember when I took a test drive and on the ride home from the dealer (thereafter, I obeyed the 4000rpm shift rule during break in). Well, the ECU reset did the trick -- car is a certifiable rocket once again. I'm back up at a solid 0.09 MPa of boost too.
I drove the snot out of the car this morning to teach the ECU, but I wonder if the ECU will mellow out over time again. As much as I'd like to, I can't redline it in every gear all the time! Probably over 80% of my driving is relaxed commuting. It's too bad the WRX's ECU isn't a little more sophisticated.
I have added a 20mm bar to the rear of my wagon and I would like to warn others to be careful with this. The car turns in crisper but I was coming around an offramp at around 25mph, deer shot out in front and when I braked, the rear came around real fast.
I was able to maintain control but I put the stock (17 or 18mm) back on and went to the same off ramp under the same conditions (wet) and tried the braking. The rear came around but not nearly as suddenly. I have opted to keep the 20 mm bar on but those putting the thicker bars on their WAGONS should be aware of the decel oversteer.
andmoon--you mentioned the turbo noise being higher pitched with the Cobb reflash. Is this annoying or intrusive compared to before or does it still sound acceptable? Would you say the engine sounds as a whole are more pleasing to the ear after the upgrade or more harsh than before? Thanks for your feedback on this.
rexaroo, Unfortunetly the sounds are harsher/more metallic. more boy racer but keep in mind we are talking very little difference here. I don't think my wife notices the change. The turbo whistle comes on sooner (I think it starts around 2750rpm or so). i don't like it because when I am in slow poke mode I used to hear nothing but now I hear the turbo starting it's spool up before I grab another gear.
I heard a Cooper S this morning and that is the type of sound I want from my subie! Suggestions anyone?
Comments
If a simple reflash can do so much...while keeping the stock safety features (knock/retard timing etc.) intact, why didn't subaru do this in the first place? I have heard the safety margin theory but don't buy it. Is there some hidden risk that comes with the increase in performance? If increased performance is pushing the limits of the drivetrain then Subaru should have at least programed in the smoothness.
My car has become so much smoother!
Don
How's the torque improvement? I was thinking of buying a wagon but found the lag to be almost intolerable. Does the turbo spool faster? Do you definititely notice the improved horsepower? I don't want to do a lot of modding, but would like something like this that you can drop in and forget.
I got the 215 Firehawks (a UHP cousin of the SO3). Going from an average all season tire to very good summers, is like going from FWD to AWD. :-)
-Dennis
Like some of you might be, I thought maybe, just maybe, there was something wrong with the trip odometer that would cause it to count miles too quickly. But after several highway runs during which I'd match mile-marker numbers, I'm positive my numbers are correct.
DjB
-Dennis
The EX models are better, though.
-juice
Kevin (2centz): If you send in your ECU for a reflash now, Cobb will sell you the AccessPort hardware after they release it for the $100 price difference. This is common practice amongst tuners to charge just the price difference when buyers upgrade to the next stage of tune.
Thomas: nice choice! As you certainly know after your research, the S-03s are widely regarded in WRX circles as the best-performing summer tire for our cars. I'm running the new ContiExtremeContacts on 17" Rota Formel rims, and also have the Dunlop WinterSport M2's on stock rims. I've been very happy with both, although the sacrifice in absolute grip with the all-season Continentals is evident if you push them hard enough. Having said that, for me the cost savings ($87 apiece vs. ~$150 as I recall) and protection against unexpected inclement weather was worth the tradeoff.
"05.22.03Lancer Evolution parts? – We are proud to announce that we will NOT be offering any EVO products...ever. Same goes for the Dodge SRT-4 or whatever the next new hot sport compact car is...unless it's a Subaru. We are getting tons of emails and calls on this so want to make it as clear as possible. We have always been a tuning company for only SUBARU vehicles. Now, and forever."
The torque improvement IS there but not as far down the powerband as I would like it. Then again it is a low compression 2 liter motor. Take a look at the stock vs stage 1&2 dyno graphs. (Cobbtuning.com) My butt dyno results reflect the graphs posted.
There are certain 90 degree turns that I now take a gear higher without lugging the engine.
The stage 2 really brings things down the rpm range but you need a turbo back exhaust.
Another give away that your ecu was reflashed is the Cobb sticker on it!
-juice
Krzys
However, it is pretty obvious that there is some power left on the table with the stock ECU. Just like VW slowly upped the HP with their 1.8T (through bigger blowers, new ECU maps and some intake improvements), we might see subtle increases with the WRX towards the end of it's current model iteration.
Ken
-mike
But there are enough Subies out there to keep them busy for the next decade.
-juice
After that, they say mpg will come back to almost where it was before the upgrade.
And like andmoon mentioned, the car drives smoother-- you don't have to downshift to a lower gear as often, so that might help too.
The 227hp is to meet EPA emissions and also because the U.S. engine doesn't have forged pistons, sodium-filled exhaust valves, hardened crankshaft, etc., and so is only reliable up to about 260-280hp. Subaru knows we are going to juice up the engine, so they are starting us out from the lower base of 227hp, IMO.
More reason to reflash using the AccessPort!
rexaroo you make many good points, but it bears mentioning that Mike Shields at SPD is thought by many "in the know" to be pretty overly conservative in his tuning philosophy. Furthermore, I'd suggest that as you approach/exceed the 280HP mark, the tranny and driveline is more susceptible to failure than engine internals.
Nevertheless, I'd say anyone thinking about modding a Subaru should read the SPD site from beginning to end, as it is highly informative. One should just bear in mind that he seems to be in the minority with many of the limitations and HP thresholds he recommends.
(At least that's what I want to believe since I'm going the turboback + AccessECU Stage 2 route!)
I was just wondering why Subaru doesn't release the wrx at stage 1 level.
He said Trey Cobb was smart enough to keep the turbo boost below 15.5 psi and the exhaust gas temperature down, so the reflash sounded to him like a good way to upgrade.
Didn't ask about the Stage 2 because personally I'm not comfortable pushing the envelope that far. But if you decide to do it, it would be interesting to hear how it goes.
(OK, that last statement is open to some debate, but based on what I've read, I believe it to be true.) If Subaru had given us a 260 hp car to start with, any chip upgrades would put the engine into unsafe territory as far as reliability goes.
Look at the EVO--it has 271 hp but also has forged pistons, natrium-filled exhaust valves for better cooling, and a bunch of other goodies to keep it reliable at that higher power output. Our Rexes only have cast pistons and standard valve materials, so our safe horsepower limit is lower. But that's why our Rexes cost 5 grand less than the Evo
I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the collective wisdom of the folks that do the the "big" HP mods: new turbos, high-flow fuel pumps and injectors, front-mount intercoolers, and so forth. These guys aren't opening up their engines and replacing pistons or valves, AFAIK, and many are in the 350 or even 400+ HP range. I know several have blown clutches and/or trannies, but I haven't heard of any catastrophic engine failures, have you?
Not questioning your position. I have to guess that you'd call this a recipe for disaster. In the grand scheme of WRX tuning, I still think I'll be on the safe side of the fence with a basic Stage 2 setup putting out ~280.
Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying don't do the Stage 2 upgrade--only that 285 hp is a little outside my comfort zone for my car. If you feel comfortable with it, by all means go for it. Like I said, it would be good to hear your feedback on how you like it.
-juice
I seldom contribute to this group, but I know I've seen some discussions about tires to replace the RE92's. In fact, a few posts up there is a discussion of the SO-3's IIRC.
What I'm looking for is a good all season replacement for the RE92. Currently, I'm looking at the Michelin Pilots and the Dunlop SP5000. I live in the Portland OR area, so I need good overall traction. Ideally, I don't want more road noise than the OEM's provide, and I would like good tread life... in as much as that's possible with Ultra High Performance tires.
Thanks,
Aric
PS I'm running stock 16's
Craig
Cobb stage 1 gets better each day (3rd day now).
I think the boost comes on 300 or so rpm sooner.
I used to occasionally have a little shake at idle and that is gone.
I think the turbo got louder/higher pitched. The motor sounds a little like that turbo japanese car in cannon ball run...well it is a turbo japanese car! I am thinking of removing the air silencer to see if I can lower the pitch of the sound.
Don
If you've got the $$ for the Pilot A/S, they're the best ever -- go for it!
Free up the exhaust flow and the turbo would probably spool up 500~750 rpm sooner.
-Dave
I think that is what stage 2 is.
Don
If you do a turbo-back exhaust, then you will need a different map and that brings you up to Stage 2 and 285hp. They also do custom maps for whatever mods you already have installed:
"Our Stage 1 map will work perfectly well with a stock car as well as a car with a K&N filter and cat-back exhaust. More significant modifications - turbos, fuel injectors, turbo-back exhausts, etc - do require unique maps. Simply swapping out a stock air filter for a K&N filter however isn't going to pose a significant enough change to warrant a unique map."
With a Borla, your Rex will sound like a big bad V-8--everyone (including the police) will hear you coming a mile away
Prodrive oval tip has a nice sound and is not much louder than stock.
Also, TurboXS supposedly makes a nice unit. Have not heard it, but others have said it is just right if you want something just a little louder than stock.
My big take away was that it's the relatively poor quality of US fuel that limits the EJ20 engine.
Ken
I emailed Tirerack with questions and verbally inquired at Discount Tire about fit/weight, etc., but didn't specifically ask about the off-set.
Got some rain to drive in the day after installation and took the car thru a tight off ramp to compare the feel to stock set-up: I'm liking the change so far. Car does wander on every bit of road feedback, but I'm sort of intrigued by the incredible amount of stick and feedback I'm getting.
Thomas in Mpls
Later...AH
Thomas, if you ever get a chance to peek at the backside of the rims, the offset should be stamped on there somewhere (usually in an oval-shaped tag near the outer edge of the wheel, should say something like "ET53").
The correct offsets for the WRX are:
16x6.5: +55mm (stock)
17x7: +53mm
I think you can go minus 1 to 2 mm from these numbers and be OK. Anything too far off runs the risk of improperly loading the bearings and/or rubbing.
Craig
"All of the wheels we sell are O.E. quality or
better in materials, finish and materials. When you search by the vehicle on our website it will automatically sort through all of the wheels and only show you models that are set up for your car... I do know that the SO Pole Position from Bridgestone has performed the best in our testing here and in our customer surveys (which are posted
unedited on our website). It is by far the best for long term consistency in traction as well. That would be my top pick for a Summer tire."
As far as my purchasing from Discount Tire, they ordered these exact wheels and tires from Tirerack, shipped to their store location, and placed them on my 2002 WRX wagon.
Should I be concerned? The car feels fine, but I wouldn't know what else to look for at this point.
Thomas in Minneapolis
Craig
What was the mileage on your WRX when you went with the Cobb Stage 1?
Justin
I drove the snot out of the car this morning to teach the ECU, but I wonder if the ECU will mellow out over time again. As much as I'd like to, I can't redline it in every gear all the time! Probably over 80% of my driving is relaxed commuting. It's too bad the WRX's ECU isn't a little more sophisticated.
Craig
I would just reset it every 6 months or so, or drive it harder on your commute. You don't have to be going fast to get close to redline. :-)
-Dennis
Thanks for feedback on the nt450.
I had around 3.5K when I did the reflash.
I have added a 20mm bar to the rear of my wagon and I would like to warn others to be careful with this. The car turns in crisper but I was coming around an offramp at around 25mph, deer shot out in front and when I braked, the rear came around real fast.
I was able to maintain control but I put the stock (17 or 18mm) back on and went to the same off ramp under the same conditions (wet) and tried the braking. The rear came around but not nearly as suddenly. I have opted to keep the 20 mm bar on but those putting the thicker bars on their WAGONS should be aware of the decel oversteer.
Don
Unfortunetly the sounds are harsher/more metallic. more boy racer but keep in mind we are talking very little difference here. I don't think my wife notices the change. The turbo whistle comes on sooner (I think it starts around 2750rpm or so). i don't like it because when I am in slow poke mode I used to hear nothing but now I hear the turbo starting it's spool up before I grab another gear.
I heard a Cooper S this morning and that is the type of sound I want from my subie! Suggestions anyone?
http://i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6413
Ken
Two completely different engines with different exhaust plumbing.
The results are at http://pub.alxnet.com/poll?id=2177890&q=view and there is also a review of the WRX STi on his site.