I'll check the arithmetic, but it seems the current market value of a 3.5 year old LS is 50 to 55% of original purchase price. Now, this is a little tricky, because like any new, well-regarded model, it sold for close to MSRP for its first 6 or 12 months.
I think a nicely equipped LS went for $34 to $40K when first released, and a used MY 00 in good condition seems to sell now for $18 to $20K.
If this relationship holds, you can get that MY03 with THX and NAV for $23K in the summer of 2006.
I've already put in a reservation for a rental. One thing I don't get... you have to pay about $400 for an LS with white paint? (Maybe just taking advantage of folks that live in the desert) Otherwise, the interior looked very nice even in the nonwood model.
If it was a tri-color, it is more expensive to produce. But there is something about white and it's not just Lincoln. My Dad bought a Honda Odyssey a couple years ago. He wanted white but was told 1)it would cost more, and 2) the wait would be six months instead of three!
But the first LS I test drove in the fall of '00 was a white V6 Sport. I looked it over very thoroughly and don't remember an additional charge for the white paint.
It isn't white - it's Ivory and it does require a special three coat finish. There was a regular white at no extra charge but I don't know if it's offered anymore.
Or something to that effect. But all I saw was just another white car (the underbody looked black, like a G35). The sticker clearly charged additional for the white paint job. Not a deal breaker, but does 2003 charge for all its paint jobs? I thought only some of the German hoity-toity cars charged extra for their "metallic paints".
Sorry I missed your post. But it wasn't ivory... it did say white. NO biggie, I was just surprised any white paint would cost extra. Was the cost of the ivory $375 (or $395) too?
Just got my annual Auto Issue of Consumers Reports today. The rating of the LS was a shocker. Black circle on "Reliability" with the explanation that " Reliability has dropped to well below average". On page 86, all "upscale cars" are rated on a scale. LS was 3rd from the bottom but higher than MB C class and lowest Jag X-Type (off the scale negative). Another benchmark was "Satisfaction", based on how many owhers would repeat buy. The LS was given an empty circle which would be about 65%. "Depreciation" was the third category, which was an empty circle again, which probably indicates "average". The confusion starts on page 37, "Sizing up the 2003s". In the "Overall Ratings" of "Upscale Sedans", the LS was 5th highest of 12, but had no "check mark" for a "Recommended" model. The top model in the group was the 330i, but the 2nd car, the IS300 got the check mark. Curiously, in the "Vehicle Profile" section, the 330i has low "reliability" but high "satisfaction" and low depreciation, which means BMW owners love to pay for repairs. CU states: "Reliability has fallen to below average, so we no longer recommend the 3-series". Well, another questionably definitive report from CU. As far as reliability and satisfaction are concerned, they should have taken a poll of enthusiast LS owners. We have tested the LS like no CU could do, and our cars are amazingly reliable and satisfying. And we could tell them about the "LS Grin"!
For 2003, the Ceramic White color has been converted to a tricoat. Due to a more complex paint process, tricoat paint is more expensive and therefore is a $375 option. In model years 2000, 2001, and 2002, White Pearlescent tricoat (code WF) was an available color, and it also cost $375 extra; it was replaced by the Ceramic White tricoat (code F6) for '03.
To complicate matters, Ceramic White was available in 2001 and 2002 as a NON-tricoat color on the Premium package; it was code W5 in that iteration. As akirby said, Ivory tricoat (code HC) is also available and has been since the LS hit the market in the 2000 model year; it, too, is a $375 option. Is it worth it? That's a choice you have to make for yourself. My LS is Ivory, so I obviously thought so.
For comparison purposes, the White Diamond color that's in the Cadillac palette is a $750 option on the CTS. BMW charges an extra $475 for ALL metallics in the 3-series lineup, and Audi charges $450 for metallic colors on the A4. Mercedes charges a whopping $655 for all metallics on the C-class as well as the E320. In addition, Mercedes requires a special order charge of $1150 (!) on many of its colors. So, if you want a specific metallic color on an E320 sedan, you might have to pay as much as $1805 extra--makes the Lincoln tricoat colors look like a bargain. (Note: Only the two tricoat colors and Vivid Red are extra-cost colors on the LS; there's no extra charge for any of the others. Vivid Red is an extra $295, but it's worth it, IMHO--it looks great on the LS.)
i too got the copy of that consumer reports review and was shocked to see they didnt rate the LS well. i agree they should have asked the LS enthusiasts on this website as i think we are pretty passionate about our cars. i have a 2000LS that i bought used in aug of 2002 and have had no problems with reliability as i can recall it has never left me stranded on the side of the road one time!!! good post glad to hear someone else was as confused as i was about that report.
Consumer Reports ‘bashing’ is very popular on several boards I frequent. I am not here to ‘defend’ them – but I do believe they offer a useful counterpoint to Enthusiast oriented publications such as R&T, C+D. Their fundamental bias (automobile as appliance, is you will) and therefore their focus on attributes and issues often ignored and / or not of interest.
Utilizing their many charts and graphs to make decisions is sometimes difficult – I have sometimes found the text trying to explain the charts to be confusing as well. And yet, I subscribe, and I keep the annual auto issues for years – there is a 1995 issue beside me. And I have used them and loaned them to friends, particularly when they are looking for a used vehicle.
And my main point here is that no other publication goes to the time and trouble of collecting and publishing such reliability data.
How does any of this pertain to the LS? Well – 2 things.
Thing 1: I believe that the LS is a generally reliable automobile – but the data (other data in addition to CR) show that overall, all automobiles, including relatively inexpensive ones, are becoming more reliable every year. Thus, Lincoln faces a moving target, and a level of excellence that is increasing each year the bar is raised yet again. Further - a rating of below average today is likely equal to average or even above average even a few years ago . . .
Thing 2: I believe that the LS is a terrific car. I owned a 2000 V8 Sport and I have driven a couple of ‘03s. Here again, the general level of performance, amenities, etc. is also increasing every year – and the LS faces better and better competition.
I keep hoping that the LS will take a full step forward (the ’03 changes were a solid half step – I appreciate many of them – and I believe it is still competitive!) and clearly differentiate itself in the marketplace.
Some possibilities might be:
Optional availability of the 4.2L Jaguar S-Type’s version of the V8 motor – with proportionately more HP and TQ.
Optional availability of the S-Type R’s 390 hp supercharged motor.
Optional availability of the Jaguar S-Types 6-speed automatic trans. – with SST, of course – to allow similar or even better acceleration with each motor WITH improved gas mileage! (As we approach $3.00 / gallon in some parts of the country!!)
Adapt the AWD system from the Jaguar X-Type – to allow putting more of the HP / TQ to the road more of the time?
And perhaps even a choice of final drive ratios (yes, I know, EPA certification and CAFÉ standards enter the equation here) – so that customers can choose what is most important to them.
[As most of you know, these possibilities all pull significantly from the common Ford Motor parts bin. Though development costs would be incurred, Lincoln successfully brought the VVT across. Sorry, Stan – I just don’t see a manual trans. that would do the job here – given the failure of the 5-Speed V6s.]
All these would be options – and the ‘base’ versions could stay the same – though I would submit that a $2,000 reduction in actual MSRP for the V8 versions would be appropriate right now – based both on the general economic climate and on the recent V6 price reduction.
Just my $.02. YMMV.
Cheers, - Ray Who would enjoy driving a 390hp, AWD, 6-speed LS – no matter what the final drive ratio . . .
The reason tri-coat paint is more expensive on the LS is that the cars actually get at least 2 extra coats of paint to get the tri-coat effect. If you look at them under street lamps they actually seem to 'glow'. I even heard they have to be pulled off the normal assembly line for the extra painting. So it's not 'just' white. Look closer and in different light and you can see the difference. Whether it's worth the extra $$ or not is up to you.
One drawback is the difficulty and expense of "touching-up" your scratches. The one bottle approach is really insufficient. It's a multi-layer process. I'm glad we have Bumper Medic and Bumper Express here in San Diego. They can handle the challenge. For Tri-Coats, www.paintscratch.com has a more expensive, multi-step set-up, but it's the only way to go. Where are those good old black bumpers? Are they ever coming back?
I'll guess I'll have to buy the Jag S-Type with the Manual tranny! Or maybe I can find a wrecked Jag V-6 Manual and transplant the drivetrain and computer to my LS! Then I can get VVT! Yea, I know, Dream On. Like try to get it smogged in Calif!
And to Ray, thanks for the well-reasoned input. As I am fond of saying, often what we do here (and at that "other" place) is drink each others' bathwater, in terms of what things are and should be. Comments from those who have seen both sides of the fence are welcome.
Ignorance is not bliss, though many would beg to differ.
Point being, if everyone in the group agrees, and discussions ensue. . .did anything change? If we all hash and re-hash everything we already believe, does it do any good?
So often, the answer is no. But many go away convinced something worthwhile has happened. Unless new blood is involved in the discussion, it's all an exercise.
Forgive me. I try to never talk down, unless it's requested.
So you going to base decisions on CU's dots, you may want to look behind them, at the fine print.
Example: The CU Web site review of the '03 Lincoln LS says: "This review represents our latest advice on the current model. It's based on our expert perspective, plus the latest reliability and test data for this year's model OR AN ESSENTIALLY SIMILAR PREDECESSOR." (caps added)
What does this mean? I THINK it means the ratings apply to an '02 or '01 LS. When you look at that black dot for predicted reliability, it can't be based on the '03 model, the new one with hundreds of engineering improvements -- steering, NVH, etc.
CU says their data is derived from their 2002 survey, which asked readers about serious problems (based on cost, failure, compromised safety, or downtime) that happened from April 1, '01 thru March 31, '02. Given the way model years run, I'm GUESSING most of the LS data came from '00 and '01 owners. The '02s came out in late '01, and had lower mileage when their owners were filling out the survey. CU says: "On average, the 2002 models included were less than six months old and had an average of only about 3,000 miles."
I'd also like to know HOW MANY LS owners answered CU's survey. And of them, how many owned V8 vs. V6 models, how many '00, '01 and '02. And I'd like a breakout of the data at least by year.
And I thought I read that Ford complained LAST year about the sample size being less than 100? Not sure about that, but if so...
Example: The overall ratings of Upscale Sedans (p. 37) rate the V6 LS. Why not the V8 instead? Would it have rated higher? Or why not both of them. Whereas, when they rate the Jag X-Type, it's the 3.0, not the 2.5.
But you can really see the "appliance bias" when the ratings get subjective.
Example: Accident Avoidance rating (page 32 in CU's April '03 Auto Issue).
The Lincoln LS rating (V6) is half-red dot, or very good, same rating as the Lexus ES 300, which is a very nice, elegant boulevard cruiser -- but not a car noted for its handling. CU says of the Lexus ES 300, "...devoid of sports sedan aspirations." and "...Handling is secure but unexceptional."
CU's March 2002 issue (p.54) reviews the current model ES 300: "The steering is reasonably well weighted, but body roll is rather pronounced. The car wants to run wide in faster tight turns, but electronic stability control helps keep it on course. In our double-lane-change avoidance maneuver, the ES300 stayed secure but didn't feel crisp. The engine is "...not very responsive for this class. The tranny is "not as responsive as the previous-generation..." tranny. But the ES 300 is a "well rounded package with very few flaws and scored highest overall in this group (i.e. upscale sedans reviewed in the CU March '02 issue)!!!
The Lincoln LS has exceptional handling, the Lexus ES 300 has, let's say, adequate handling. Yet they both get the same "above average" rating.
IMO, the CU dot system of rating doesn't do it. I'd rather see a numerical score, backed up by detail on the specific data.
On page 9 of their Auto Issue, CU says complete owner-satisfaction results will be posted on their Web site from March 10 thru May 5. (You may have to subscribe to get access.) So far, I can't find it on the site. If anyone else does, how about a URL?
... and in a positive fashion, but I let my subscrption to CU lapse. It must have been because of the way they reduce EVERYTHING to nothing but a bunch of data points. Car and Driver may have their biases, but at least they understand that a car might have some "soul", which might be able to offset an extra repair per 5 thousand miles.
I have filled out the CU survey in the past but their bias and political leaning (Ralph Nader was a board member for years) caused me to cancel. It doesn't take much to skew the rating for a car as far as reliability goes. If 90% report failed rear windows and 50% complain about the "learning" transmission....that would probably do it.
No question that in the sense of enthusiast handling, the LS is superior to nearly any FWD car, due both to the more favorable weight distribution and the separation of drive and steering functions between front and rear suspension / tire pairs. If your definition of great handling includes the vehicle behavior at and above 7 tenths (a bit risky on most public roads, of course) then the balance and RWD and exceptional suspension provide a rewarding experience for those who care.
My aunt, though, defines handling in terms of how much steering effort is required for parallel parking.
And I believe CU speaks of handling primarily in terms of accident avoidance – clearly a safety issue, but . . . And I am reasonably certain that CU is not interested in the LS SOLO II success.
Different strokes.
- Ray Who last week drove another ’03 V8 Premium Sport – and enjoyed it – A LOT!
Had a very favorable review of the Lincoln LS (3 pages!) in the April 2003 issue. Go to your newstands and it's pages 114-117. Describes the LS as a "Homegrown Euro Hottie". Also has an owner's survey that should have been used by Consumer Reports. I'm mailing the article to Brian today. This would be worth getting permission to republish in a future edition of a LLSOC Newsletter. PM was very impressed with the car. They said: "We like it".
Ray, agree with you 100% re: LS handling, and how an enthusiast's definition of handling might differ from a non-enthusiast's.
That said, once CU gets beyond easily measurable stuff like, say, how many cubic feet of space there is in the trunk, their judgements become opinions.
Apparently, CU thinks "handling" is more than just accident avoidance. Here's what their Web site says about it:
"Handling judgments reflect how agile the vehicle is both in routine driving and in emergency-handling--how the vehicle performed when pushed to its limits on the track and in our emergency-avoidance maneuver. The avoidance-maneuver speed indicates the maximum speed at which a vehicle successfully negotiated the course."
From A guide to new-car Ratings and reviews How to interpret the information in our new-car profiles
Even if you just look at THEIR definition of Accident Avoidance, it's hard to see how they give identical ratings for this emergency maneuver to the Lincoln LS, Lexus ES 300 and Toyota Avalon.
The latter two are fine cars, but there is simply no way that they are comparable to the Lincoln in that maneuver. Just look at the "At the track" section on CU's Web site. Check out the angles of the cars going thru the test, the illustration of the car fishtailing thru the S turn. And watch the video. This is NOT a sedate maneuver.
I'm sorry, but CU has a state of the art 300-acre test track, complete with a handling circuit, skid pad, and avoidance maneuver area; they really put these cars thru their paces, and they STILL rate the 3 cars IDENTICAL for handling.
of CU's recommendations vs. their actual survey data. What it boils down to is "We'll make our recommendations based on our standards, regardless of the facts." Their editors have a deep hatred of Amercian business and a great love for government regulation. They have found room to the left of National Public Radio on environmental and regulatory issues, and that takes some doing.
Their magazine is an useful source for data, like prices and options, and sometimes interesting reading, but they lost their credibility with me a long time ago.
The fact is the LS did poor in the CU survey because statistically it had more problems than the competition. This has nothing to do with politics or any other crap. It is just damn numbers. If you can't believe this then you are in trouble. This reminds me of when certain groups do badly on some type of measurement test and if they do poorly they always say the test is biased/racist/flawed, whatever. Sometimes we have to look at ourselves and see where we are weak and work to improve that area.
All that being said I still like the LS. I was set to buy one but Ford never made a V8 with a stick.
...but you can "spin" it nonetheless. How many LS owners subscribe to CU? If you don't, you don't get their survey.
Since they only send surveys to their subscribers, if 10 LS owners are subscribers, that's what they base their opinions on. I'm sure that there are thousands of subscribers who drive Camrys, Impalas, etc., so they have a greater database on those cars.
It is hard to know what CU is talking about regarding "problems", but when you look at the more troublesome categories, you can imagine their nature --- rear windows, front suspension bushings, seat heaters, and possibly the rear amp ground strap. All pretty minor in the big picture, but the one that irks me is the bushing, as I've replaced them under warranty on my prior three Ford products, two Windstars and a Sable. C'mon guys, get a new supplier or something.
I'm still at a loss to understand why the E-Class picked up a check for 01, when on average, its "dots" are less favorable than the 01 LS
The problem with CU reliability data is the fact that CU has no way of knowing 1.The percentage of Car X owners who subscribe to/read CR, and 2. The percentage of CR reading Car X owners who actually return the cards. Thus, there's no way to determine if the data represents a statistically valid sample. Same with the R&T Owners Surveys. At least Automobile, Autoweek, CD, and R&T perform long-term tests-something CU never does. I suspect that they are terrified that the expense of long-term testing might have a negative impact on their pocket protector budget, though I'm certain jnowski would have a better insight into that issue.
I will pick up my LS-6 tomorrow. After reading some of the message traffic, I have to ask about the "unmentionable" site. I look forward to learning a lot about the joys of owning an LS.
Hi guys! I have not been here for months. It's time to look for tires for my 2000 LS V8 Sport after 46000 very enjoyable miles. I know that the subject has been discussed or even argued many many times here. I would sure like some quick suggestions - the car is used for normal city and highway driving. By the way David McDavid LM in Plano stuck with my brake squeal problem and finally resolved it after two and a half years!!
Top All Season Tire: Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Expensive ($205 each) but worth it
Top Bargain Tire: Kumho ECSTA 712s Very good all around performance and relatively inexpensive ($100 each)
In between are the original Firestones (still available), Pirellis, Goodyears, Dunlops, etc. The new OEM tire is the Michelin Pilot MXM4 which is a good tire, less performance oriented than the Pilot Sport A/S but not much cheaper (around $189). For that much I'd go with the Pilot Sport A/S.
Some mfrs offer the OEM 235/50R17 size - if not go with 245/45/17 or 255/45/17. Go to tireack.com and do a size search - then check the owner surveys for each one. It will tell you a lot.
If you put 46,000 miles on your OEM FireHawks on Texas pavement (it gets hot in Plano) you will be delightfully surprised at how much better your LS drives with new rubber, whoever makes it.
If it's hot in Plano, it must be hotter in Mansfield which is south of Dallas. I check tire pressure weekly, rotated every 5K miles and was sliding around at 25K miles on the Stones. I swapped for the Michelins on my 2000 and was very pleased with them. My 02 came standard with them as well. I remember buying the 00 replacements at Sears during one of their sales for around $90 each balanced and mounted which I thought was reasonable. Costco also has good prices.
I'm putting 17" super silvers on a 2001 LS8(non-sport). Is this OK without the sport sway-bar and sport shocks that come standard on the sport model? Also should I get P255/45 17" or P245/45 17"?? Thinking of TOYO FZ4's. Any thoughts? Much appreciated feedback.
The Consumer Reports auto issue that came out in 2001 is what I use to make my point. My Dad bought a Honda Odyssey about the same time I bought my LS. The LS and the Odyssey had IDENTICAL scores in the charts that list the different areas of the car, the exact same number of circles, half red, etc. etc. Yet the predicted reliability for the LS was below average and the Honda was much better than average. Based on . . . .?
Yes, I love my LS and am prejudiced in it's favor. I'm used to it being unfavorably compared to other cars in the enthusiast magazines. But at least they don't claim to offer unbiased factual data, as Consumer Reports does.
No problem going to the 17" wheels. Either tire size is ok. 245/45 is what Lincoln recommends but IIRC 255/45 is actually closer to the 235/50 OEM tire size. You don't have to change anything else.
If you want to improve the handling you can install the sport calibrated shocks (also called struts - don't ask me why) and sway bars. Springs are the same.
I agree that "predicted reliability" has little statistical basis except for past history of the manufacturer. Past history is only good if the company has not changed its ways. As we have seen over the last five years GM has improved, Mercedes has declined and Ford has been stagnant, at best.
Never the less, I was talking about the LS reliabilty and not Ford's reputation. Lets face it, the LS is a good car but needs improvement in several areas, including relaibility.
Finally, I repeat that I like the LS and would have purchased one if not for the lack of a V8 stick. I was willing to have the one or two extra repairs over the life of the LS versus the most reliable competitiors and have a car that was somewhat fun to drive and reasonably priced. If all I cared about was reliabilty I could have gotten the same utility out of a Taurus or something.
Unfortunately, the general public is not willing to sacrifice one bit of reliability for lower cost or an improved driving experience. Why else does Toyota or Honda thrive? With only a few exceptions, their cars are rock solid relaible but are as lame as can be. The general public is who pays the bills for car companies. Not the enthusiasts. So top level reliabilty is the most important factor in mass marketers gaining and retaining customers.
I'm going for the Michelin Pilot Sports A/S P235/50-17's because OEM equipment seems to hold resale value the best. Plus I was worried about a harsher ride with the 45's.
Here is an interesting note: The No. 12 AmeriSuites Riley & Scott/Lincoln both started and finished 12th overall in the 12 Hours. Carrying (stretching?) the theme further, of the drivers, Michael Lewis’ birthday is the 12th of November, Guy Cosmo’s birthday is the 12th of March and Tomy Drissi was born in December, yes, the 12th month. Oh yes, there are 12 members on the team!
I assume that it is probably a standard Ford Racing block (351 or 305) but the sponser money is from Lincoln...
can be an issue with any vehicle. If I bought a car based on what car rags said I would have bought a Lexus GS instead of the LS V8 sport that I did buy in '99. At that time there was almost no data on the LS. I was dead set on getting a GS 400. Visited the thread here at edmunds everyday. After I test drove a LS several times and saw what it could do and how it compared to other comparable cars..it was a no brainer for me. When I told the owners in the Lexus thread that I had changed my mind and was getting a Lincoln LS many told me what a mistake I was making. It is a first model year,lincoln service not as good as a GS,etc. Still I went with my gut and I have never regreted my decision once.
Now as far as reliability goes I had one problem in two years. The tranny needed the PCM reflash. Lincoln customer service called me asking how I like my car and was there any problems. When i explained the problem they asked why I hadn't schedule a service yet? I told them I didn't want to be without my fabulous car! They asked if they could set an appointment up for me. I agreed and was wondering if I would run into the not up to par customer service other threads would warn me about. Boy were they wrong! I could not have imagined a better experience, except a swedish massage, if I tried. Polite, curtious, not just thinking about the customer but that I was a real person just like them. Very friendly and suprisingly knowledgible mechanic crew for a car barely in production 6 months! Kudos to to the customer service and kudos to Lincoln for a great car! I wondered if I was getting preferential treatment because I owned an LS. Two years later i found that wasn't so as my wife bought a Taurus. Once again great customer service but the relibility was... lets just say below average for a model many years on the market. Battery dead twice in 1.5 years caused by 2 different electrical problems. Seals around windshield comin loose. Material seperating from instrument panel. Complete transmission replacement after 2 years. My point is that any car can have reliability issues. Sometimes it is that particular model or just a bad car out of the run. I recall the same problems being posted with the Lexus GS when it was in the 3rd model year after its '98 redesign. Not so much so with the E-class mercedes but then again you overpaid for sport performance that was a fraction of the cost in the LS. Don't get me started on the BMW (bought my wife) car! Great car don't get me wrong...but very over rated and over priced IMHO. Customer service was great. As it should be for all the trips neede to fix this and that. BMW is an excellent example of computer nerds trying to make a car while the car manufacturer trys to build a supercomputer for there car. They each know enough about the other to make themselves dangerous to the overall project. I was creaming in my pants when I first saw BMW's I-drive technology. It is a good start but not there yet. Programming and logic still needs refining. Not enough safety nets to prevent the computer from fouling other parts of the system and not to mention complete car immobilization. By no means am I a car fanatic or expert. I do however program, design, and build logic schemes for database and PLC solutions. I love that more care manufactures are trying to put smart systems in there cars but please don't give us Microsofts version of Windows ME. It shuold have never been released or at least tested for another 1.5 years before the public bought it. Any how I will get off my soap box now and baylou by no means is this an attack at you. Isee where you are coming from and to each there own. I beleive that the '05 version of LS will be right up your ally. From a friend inside the business there is talk of the manual V8 for the '05 or by '06 model year. I know the BMW may get to 0-60 faster but give me a congested 2 mile stretch of I-75 in GA when the flow of traffic is 65mph or better. The passing ability of this car is almost unrivaled! Peace and god speed to all!
Just returned from my my first ever SCCA autocross. There were 5 LS's there including one with a bicycle rack mounted to the roof. 3 of us were rank novices and one runs regularly. His was in the same times as some Porsches running the course. The car is a blast through the cones. I got a rousing ovation as I blasted into turn one with rubber flying and smoke everywhere. Of course I spun out but I was 17 all over again. Stanny you've got competition for that infamous award! In 4 runs, I never finished but who cares, it was a blast. Interesting to note that in 150 cars there was an old BMW 2002 set up for racing and one M3. We really had the time keepers guessing as it's not every day 3 black LS's compete in the same heat. Next time, I'll try and finish the course!
About 4 months ago I replaced two of my tires. Original specs call for 235/50-17 on my 2000 LS V8 Sport. I replaced only the front at the time with 235/45-17. All was well until I got them rotated, onto the rear wheels. At speeds above 60 the traction control engages under light acceleration. According to the Lincoln dealer in my area, if I replace the front tires with the same size as the rear, the problem will go away? This doesn't quite seem right to me, is that true???
Comments
I think a nicely equipped LS went for $34 to $40K when first released, and a used MY 00 in good condition seems to sell now for $18 to $20K.
If this relationship holds, you can get that MY03 with THX and NAV for $23K in the summer of 2006.
But the first LS I test drove in the fall of '00 was a white V6 Sport. I looked it over very thoroughly and don't remember an additional charge for the white paint.
The rating of the LS was a shocker.
Black circle on "Reliability" with the explanation that " Reliability has dropped to well below average".
On page 86, all "upscale cars" are rated on a scale. LS was 3rd from the bottom but higher than MB C class and lowest Jag X-Type (off the scale negative).
Another benchmark was "Satisfaction", based on how many owhers would repeat buy.
The LS was given an empty circle which would be about 65%.
"Depreciation" was the third category, which was an empty circle again, which probably indicates "average".
The confusion starts on page 37, "Sizing up the 2003s". In the "Overall Ratings" of "Upscale Sedans", the LS was 5th highest of 12, but had no "check mark" for a "Recommended" model.
The top model in the group was the 330i, but the 2nd car, the IS300 got the check mark.
Curiously, in the "Vehicle Profile" section, the 330i has low "reliability" but high "satisfaction" and low depreciation, which means BMW owners love to pay for repairs.
CU states: "Reliability has fallen to below average, so we no longer recommend the 3-series".
Well, another questionably definitive report from CU.
As far as reliability and satisfaction are concerned, they should have taken a poll of enthusiast LS owners.
We have tested the LS like no CU could do, and our cars are amazingly reliable and satisfying.
And we could tell them about the "LS Grin"!
To complicate matters, Ceramic White was available in 2001 and 2002 as a NON-tricoat color on the Premium package; it was code W5 in that iteration. As akirby said, Ivory tricoat (code HC) is also available and has been since the LS hit the market in the 2000 model year; it, too, is a $375 option. Is it worth it? That's a choice you have to make for yourself. My LS is Ivory, so I obviously thought so.
For comparison purposes, the White Diamond color that's in the Cadillac palette is a $750 option on the CTS. BMW charges an extra $475 for ALL metallics in the 3-series lineup, and Audi charges $450 for metallic colors on the A4. Mercedes charges a whopping $655 for all metallics on the C-class as well as the E320. In addition, Mercedes requires a special order charge of $1150 (!) on many of its colors. So, if you want a specific metallic color on an E320 sedan, you might have to pay as much as $1805 extra--makes the Lincoln tricoat colors look like a bargain.
Utilizing their many charts and graphs to make decisions is sometimes difficult – I have sometimes found the text trying to explain the charts to be confusing as well. And yet, I subscribe, and I keep the annual auto issues for years – there is a 1995 issue beside me. And I have used them and loaned them to friends, particularly when they are looking for a used vehicle.
And my main point here is that no other publication goes to the time and trouble of collecting and publishing such reliability data.
How does any of this pertain to the LS? Well – 2 things.
Thing 1: I believe that the LS is a generally reliable automobile – but the data (other data in addition to CR) show that overall, all automobiles, including relatively inexpensive ones, are becoming more reliable every year. Thus, Lincoln faces a moving target, and a level of excellence that is increasing each year the bar is raised yet again. Further - a rating of below average today is likely equal to average or even above average even a few years ago . . .
Thing 2: I believe that the LS is a terrific car. I owned a 2000 V8 Sport and I have driven a couple of ‘03s. Here again, the general level of performance, amenities, etc. is also increasing every year – and the LS faces better and better competition.
I keep hoping that the LS will take a full step forward (the ’03 changes were a solid half step – I appreciate many of them – and I believe it is still competitive!) and clearly differentiate itself in the marketplace.
Some possibilities might be:
Optional availability of the 4.2L Jaguar S-Type’s version of the V8 motor – with proportionately more HP and TQ.
Optional availability of the S-Type R’s 390 hp supercharged motor.
Optional availability of the Jaguar S-Types 6-speed automatic trans. – with SST, of course – to allow similar or even better acceleration with each motor WITH improved gas mileage! (As we approach $3.00 / gallon in some parts of the country!!)
Adapt the AWD system from the Jaguar X-Type – to allow putting more of the HP / TQ to the road more of the time?
And perhaps even a choice of final drive ratios (yes, I know, EPA certification and CAFÉ standards enter the equation here) – so that customers can choose what is most important to them.
[As most of you know, these possibilities all pull significantly from the common Ford Motor parts bin. Though development costs would be incurred, Lincoln successfully brought the VVT across. Sorry, Stan – I just don’t see a manual trans. that would do the job here – given the failure of the 5-Speed V6s.]
All these would be options – and the ‘base’ versions could stay the same – though I would submit that a $2,000 reduction in actual MSRP for the V8 versions would be appropriate right now – based both on the general economic climate and on the recent V6 price reduction.
Just my $.02. YMMV.
Cheers,
- Ray
Who would enjoy driving a 390hp, AWD, 6-speed LS – no matter what the final drive ratio . . .
The one bottle approach is really insufficient. It's a multi-layer process.
I'm glad we have Bumper Medic and Bumper Express here in San Diego. They can handle the challenge.
For Tri-Coats, www.paintscratch.com has a more expensive, multi-step set-up, but it's the only way to go.
Where are those good old black bumpers? Are they ever coming back?
Or maybe I can find a wrecked Jag V-6 Manual and transplant the drivetrain and computer to my LS!
Then I can get VVT!
Yea, I know, Dream On. Like try to get it smogged in Calif!
MY 2000 had 2 white paints:
Vibrant White - standard color
White Pearlesecent - optional Tri Coat
MY 2001 only one white
White Pearl - optional tri-coat
MY 2002 again had 2 white paints
Ceramic White - standard color (not tri-coat), but only available on "Premium" models
White Pearl - Optional Tri-Coat
MY 2003 - back to only 1 white
Ceramic White - Optional Tri-Coat
:-)
And to Ray, thanks for the well-reasoned input. As I am fond of saying, often what we do here (and at that "other" place) is drink each others' bathwater, in terms of what things are and should be. Comments from those who have seen both sides of the fence are welcome.
Ignorance is not bliss, though many would beg to differ.
:-D
Point being, if everyone in the group agrees, and discussions ensue. . .did anything change? If we all hash and re-hash everything we already believe, does it do any good?
So often, the answer is no. But many go away convinced something worthwhile has happened. Unless new blood is involved in the discussion, it's all an exercise.
Forgive me. I try to never talk down, unless it's requested.
Anyone want to talk about the possibility of an inline-6 option for the '04 LS?
Doooohhhh . . .
So you going to base decisions on CU's dots, you may want to look behind them, at the fine print.
Example: The CU Web site review of the '03 Lincoln LS says:
"This review represents our latest advice on the current model. It's based on our expert perspective, plus the latest reliability and test data for this year's model OR AN ESSENTIALLY SIMILAR PREDECESSOR." (caps added)
What does this mean? I THINK it means the ratings apply to an '02 or '01 LS. When you look at that black dot for predicted reliability, it can't be based on the '03 model, the new one with hundreds of engineering improvements -- steering, NVH, etc.
CU says their data is derived from their 2002 survey, which asked readers about serious problems (based on cost, failure, compromised safety, or downtime) that happened from April 1, '01 thru March 31, '02. Given the way model years run, I'm GUESSING most of the LS data came from '00 and '01 owners. The '02s came out in late '01, and had lower mileage when their owners were filling out the survey. CU says: "On average, the 2002 models included were less than six months old and had an average of only about 3,000 miles."
I'd also like to know HOW MANY LS owners answered CU's survey. And of them, how many owned V8 vs. V6 models, how many '00, '01 and '02. And I'd like a breakout of the data at least by year.
And I thought I read that Ford complained LAST year about the sample size being less than 100? Not sure about that, but if so...
Example: The overall ratings of Upscale Sedans (p. 37) rate the V6 LS. Why not the V8 instead? Would it have rated higher? Or why not both of them. Whereas, when they rate the Jag X-Type, it's the 3.0, not the 2.5.
But you can really see the "appliance bias" when the ratings get subjective.
Example: Accident Avoidance rating (page 32 in CU's April '03 Auto Issue).
The Lincoln LS rating (V6) is half-red dot, or very good, same rating as the Lexus ES 300, which is a very nice, elegant boulevard cruiser -- but not a car noted for its handling. CU says of the Lexus ES 300, "...devoid of sports sedan aspirations." and "...Handling is secure but unexceptional."
CU's March 2002 issue (p.54) reviews the current model ES 300:
"The steering is reasonably well weighted, but body roll is rather pronounced. The car wants to run wide in faster tight turns, but electronic stability control helps keep it on course. In our double-lane-change avoidance maneuver, the ES300 stayed secure but didn't feel crisp. The engine is "...not very responsive for this class. The tranny is "not as responsive as the previous-generation..." tranny. But the ES 300 is a "well rounded package with very few flaws and scored highest overall in this group (i.e. upscale sedans reviewed in the CU March '02 issue)!!!
The Lincoln LS has exceptional handling, the Lexus ES 300 has, let's say, adequate handling. Yet they both get the same "above average" rating.
IMO, the CU dot system of rating doesn't do it. I'd rather see a numerical score, backed up by detail on the specific data.
On page 9 of their Auto Issue, CU says complete owner-satisfaction results will be posted on their Web site from March 10 thru May 5. (You may have to subscribe to get access.) So far, I can't find it on the site. If anyone else does, how about a URL?
My aunt, though, defines handling in terms of how much steering effort is required for parallel parking.
And I believe CU speaks of handling primarily in terms of accident avoidance – clearly a safety issue, but . . . And I am reasonably certain that CU is not interested in the LS SOLO II success.
Different strokes.
- Ray
Who last week drove another ’03 V8 Premium Sport – and enjoyed it – A LOT!
Describes the LS as a "Homegrown Euro Hottie".
Also has an owner's survey that should have been used by Consumer Reports.
I'm mailing the article to Brian today.
This would be worth getting permission to republish in a future edition of a LLSOC Newsletter.
PM was very impressed with the car.
They said: "We like it".
That said, once CU gets beyond easily measurable stuff like, say, how many cubic feet of space there is in the trunk, their judgements become opinions.
Apparently, CU thinks "handling" is more than just accident avoidance. Here's what their Web site says about it:
"Handling judgments reflect how agile the vehicle is both in routine driving and in emergency-handling--how the vehicle performed when pushed to its limits on the track and in our emergency-avoidance maneuver. The avoidance-maneuver speed indicates the maximum speed at which a vehicle successfully negotiated the course."
From A guide to new-car Ratings and reviews
How to interpret the information in our new-car profiles
Even if you just look at THEIR definition of Accident Avoidance, it's hard to see how they give identical ratings for this emergency maneuver to the Lincoln LS, Lexus ES 300 and Toyota Avalon.
The latter two are fine cars, but there is simply no way that they are comparable to the Lincoln in that maneuver. Just look at the "At the track" section on CU's Web site. Check out the angles of the cars going thru the test, the illustration of the car fishtailing thru the S turn. And watch the video. This is NOT a sedate maneuver.
I'm sorry, but CU has a state of the art 300-acre test track, complete with a handling circuit, skid pad, and avoidance maneuver area; they really put these cars thru their paces, and they STILL rate the 3 cars IDENTICAL for handling.
It just doesn't add up. :-)
Their magazine is an useful source for data, like prices and options, and sometimes interesting reading, but they lost their credibility with me a long time ago.
All that being said I still like the LS. I was set to buy one but Ford never made a V8 with a stick.
Since they only send surveys to their subscribers, if 10 LS owners are subscribers, that's what they base their opinions on. I'm sure that there are thousands of subscribers who drive Camrys, Impalas, etc., so they have a greater database on those cars.
I'm still at a loss to understand why the E-Class picked up a check for 01, when on average, its "dots" are less favorable than the 01 LS
By the way David McDavid LM in Plano stuck with my brake squeal problem and finally resolved it after two and a half years!!
Top All Season Tire: Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Expensive ($205 each) but worth it
Top Bargain Tire: Kumho ECSTA 712s Very good all around performance and relatively inexpensive ($100 each)
In between are the original Firestones (still available), Pirellis, Goodyears, Dunlops, etc. The new OEM tire is the Michelin Pilot MXM4 which is a good tire, less performance oriented than the Pilot Sport A/S but not much cheaper (around $189). For that much I'd go with the Pilot Sport A/S.
Some mfrs offer the OEM 235/50R17 size - if not go with 245/45/17 or 255/45/17. Go to tireack.com and do a size search - then check the owner surveys for each one. It will tell you a lot.
Yes, I love my LS and am prejudiced in it's favor. I'm used to it being unfavorably compared to other cars in the enthusiast magazines. But at least they don't claim to offer unbiased factual data, as Consumer Reports does.
If you want to improve the handling you can install the sport calibrated shocks (also called struts - don't ask me why) and sway bars. Springs are the same.
I agree that "predicted reliability" has little statistical basis except for past history of the manufacturer. Past history is only good if the company has not changed its ways. As we have seen over the last five years GM has improved, Mercedes has declined and Ford has been stagnant, at best.
Never the less, I was talking about the LS reliabilty and not Ford's reputation. Lets face it, the LS is a good car but needs improvement in several areas, including relaibility.
Finally, I repeat that I like the LS and would have purchased one if not for the lack of a V8 stick. I was willing to have the one or two extra repairs over the life of the LS versus the most reliable competitiors and have a car that was somewhat fun to drive and reasonably priced. If all I cared about was reliabilty I could have gotten the same utility out of a Taurus or something.
Unfortunately, the general public is not willing to sacrifice one bit of reliability for lower cost or an improved driving experience. Why else does Toyota or Honda thrive? With only a few exceptions, their cars are rock solid relaible but are as lame as can be. The general public is who pays the bills for car companies. Not the enthusiasts. So top level reliabilty is the most important factor in mass marketers gaining and retaining customers.
12) Michael Lewis, Tomy Drissi, Guy Cosmo, R&S MK IIIC/Lincoln (P900), 318
Finished 12th in the 12 hours of sebring.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/roadracing/5508/
Here is an interesting note:
The No. 12 AmeriSuites Riley & Scott/Lincoln both started and finished 12th overall in the 12 Hours. Carrying (stretching?) the theme further, of the drivers, Michael Lewis’ birthday is the 12th of November, Guy Cosmo’s birthday is the 12th of March and Tomy Drissi was born in December, yes, the 12th month. Oh yes, there are 12 members on the team!
I assume that it is probably a standard Ford Racing block (351 or 305) but the sponser money is from Lincoln...
Here is a picture of the car: http://www.imsaracing.net/2003/cars/car.cfm?carnum=36
Now as far as reliability goes I had one problem in two years. The tranny needed the PCM reflash. Lincoln customer service called me asking how I like my car and was there any problems. When i explained the problem they asked why I hadn't schedule a service yet? I told them I didn't want to be without my fabulous car! They asked if they could set an appointment up for me. I agreed and was wondering if I would run into the not up to par customer service other threads would warn me about. Boy were they wrong! I could not have imagined a better experience, except a swedish massage, if I tried. Polite, curtious, not just thinking about the customer but that I was a real person just like them. Very friendly and suprisingly knowledgible mechanic crew for a car barely in production 6 months! Kudos to to the customer service and kudos to Lincoln for a great car!
I wondered if I was getting preferential treatment because I owned an LS. Two years later i found that wasn't so as my wife bought a Taurus. Once again great customer service but the relibility was... lets just say below average for a model many years on the market. Battery dead twice in 1.5 years caused by 2 different electrical problems. Seals around windshield comin loose. Material seperating from instrument panel. Complete transmission replacement after 2 years.
My point is that any car can have reliability issues. Sometimes it is that particular model or just a bad car out of the run. I recall the same problems being posted with the Lexus GS when it was in the 3rd model year after its '98 redesign. Not so much so with the E-class mercedes but then again you overpaid for sport performance that was a fraction of the cost in the LS. Don't get me started on the BMW (bought my wife) car! Great car don't get me wrong...but very over rated and over priced IMHO. Customer service was great. As it should be for all the trips neede to fix this and that. BMW is an excellent example of computer nerds trying to make a car while the car manufacturer trys to build a supercomputer for there car. They each know enough about the other to make themselves dangerous to the overall project. I was creaming in my pants when I first saw BMW's I-drive technology. It is a good start but not there yet. Programming and logic still needs refining. Not enough safety nets to prevent the computer from fouling other parts of the system and not to mention complete car immobilization.
By no means am I a car fanatic or expert. I do however program, design, and build logic schemes for database and PLC solutions. I love that more care manufactures are trying to put smart systems in there cars but please don't give us Microsofts version of Windows ME. It shuold have never been released or at least tested for another 1.5 years before the public bought it.
Any how I will get off my soap box now and baylou by no means is this an attack at you. Isee where you are coming from and to each there own. I beleive that the '05 version of LS will be right up your ally. From a friend inside the business there is talk of the manual V8 for the '05 or by '06 model year. I know the BMW may get to 0-60 faster but give me a congested 2 mile stretch of I-75 in GA when the flow of traffic is 65mph or better. The passing ability of this car is almost unrivaled! Peace and god speed to all!
Russ
Former Owner and Missing my LS V8 Sport :-(
3 of us were rank novices and one runs regularly.
His was in the same times as some Porsches running the course.
The car is a blast through the cones. I got a rousing ovation as I blasted into turn one with rubber flying and smoke everywhere. Of course I spun out but I was 17 all over again. Stanny you've got competition for that infamous award!
In 4 runs, I never finished but who cares, it was a blast.
Interesting to note that in 150 cars there was an old BMW 2002 set up for racing and one M3.
We really had the time keepers guessing as it's not every day 3 black LS's compete in the same heat.
Next time, I'll try and finish the course!
That was my problem. Me versus the TC System!