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All the competition you listed are FWD cars. While they are fine cars the FWD platform just can't keep up with the superior balance, RWD and aluminum chassis of the LS. Along with my LS, I have a Duratec equipped '96 Sable. My LS runs rings around the Sable, and the LS has the V6. I won't win any stoplight races, but TRY and keep up in the twisties! There is an offramp going to work that is marked 40mph. I ROUTINELY take it at 80 and I don't have the sport suspension. The best my nose heavy FWD Sable can do is 68. The other cars are less expensive. I had an I30 for a rental a couple months ago. It was a fine car, but I couldn't wait to get back in my LS and go driving again. For pure driving pleasure you can't beat the RWD platform. Hey, the LS didn't earn Motor Trend's Car of the Year for nothing!
Edmunds complained about the tranny for 3 or 4 months before FINALLY having it reprogrammed with the 2001 software. There was only a engagement issue with the 2000's. The '01's are fine.
Have fun making your decision and hope you See the Light and buy the LS :~)
The cam chain whine is a harmonic resonance of the cam chains and is at a relatively high frequency and has nothing to do with torque converter lock up. You can hear the cam chain whine in neutral if you rev the engine to 1700 (+/-) RPM. Since the cam chain resonance is a weak resonance and it occurs in a flexable component (the chain) there is not much of a way it could be transmitted to the rest of the driveline.
The drone is actually the beating between 2 different resonances (that are close in frequency)in the driveline components and is at a low frequency (most likely the difference in the resonant frequencies of the 2 driveline components). It can occur when the engine is outside the RPM range that generates the cam chain whine.
There is a 3rd whine that others have referred to coming from transmission gears. I have no idea what that noise is like as my LS's tranny is very quiet and does not have this gear noise.
As an aside, most cars with automatic transmissions have had lock up torque converters since the early 1980's. I should know this very well as I was the project engineer for the productin equipment that welded the first GM lockup torque converters together. The equipment was delivered to GM in 1979 for production commencement for the either the 1980 or 1981 model years.
All is not roses, right now I'm not a happy LS customer, I love the LS, with the V8 it was exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately, I have a vibration that hasn't been able to be solved in 8 trips to the dealer service department. Since there are many other LS owners who have similar vibration complaints I suggest that if you buy a LS, get one out of dealer stock and take it for an extended test drive on a smooth interstate. Drive it for at least 20 miles at highway speed and pay close attention for any vibrations especially at 71 & 75 mph. Make sure you keep it at the same speed for a few miles to see if the vibration gets going. If you feel or hear anything walk away from the car because chances are slim you will be able to get it fixed.
plus very adequate straight-line acceleration. The Manual is a sleeper. Virtually ignored by the automotive press, the Manual is simply the best performance value in 4 door RWD Manual sports sedans. Road testers have tested very green cars, and we LLSOC members have documented that the modified Duratech takes as much as 10,000 miles to "loosen-up". The 2002 model adds 10 hp by decreasing exhaust restriction and increasing air intake volume. Those of us with earlier models have added the Borla system and air box mods to achieve the same effect if you choose a used model. Where else can you find an exotic aluminum suspension, aluminum hood, trunk and front quarter panels, battery in the trunk with the goal of achieving 50-50 weight balance. In fact, the handling is more neutral than it's V-8 brethren. With 220hp, the Manual should equal the V-8 0-60 times. We are awaiting the first mag tests to see what the 2002 can do. My car was manufactured in 2/00 and sat ignored at an LA dealers lot for almost 4 months. Don't be frustrated that the dealer does not have a Manual for you to test drive. Don't be dissuaded by comments like "who wants to shift a luxury car?" etc. You can have the control of a true performance car and luxury as well. To the elite 2.5% of LS owners who drive one, the Manual is our little secret. With the Manual, the Sport options including oil cooler are standard. That makes it an even better value. If you choose the Manual LS, don't be afraid to bargain hard on the price. The dealers want to sell and there are not that many takers. The Manual is relatively unknown to the motoring public. It is not even on the radar screen.
One intangible of great value which you will not find with any other marque is the unique comaradarie, events and knowledge of your fellow LS enthusiasts that make up the membership of the LLSOC. We regularly communicate with LS engineering and sales staff. They monitor the forum and answer our inquiries. As a result, we all know more about our cars than any other group of owners.
I have 18,500 miles of enthusastic driving on my Manual with no mechanical problems. The Manual has had few complaints on this board. Unlike the Germanic brands, parts are available and less expensive. We fellow enthusiasts can guide you through aquisition and all other areas of LS ownership. In detail. Been there, done that. There is not a group as knowledgeable, caring and sharing as the LS enthusiasts on this forum and in LLSOC. If you have any doubt, go back to Brian's post of today featuring pictures of Mania II in Dearborn. Owning an LS is much more than driving a superb sports sedan.
I hope to welcome you as a fellow LS Manual owner.
Stanny1, Cone Killer Award Winner - Mania I
Overall mileage to date: 21.5 MPG
Typical city mileage: 16.5 MPG
Mileage at steady 100 MPH on level roads: 22.5 MPG
Mileage at steady 60 MPH on level roads: 28 MPG
(The last two were measured for about 100 miles immediately after filling the tank and resetting the mileage computer. The first in Nevada, the second in eastern Tennessee.)
Typical interstate mileage at 75 MPH: 24.5 MPG
Octane: Lincoln specifies at least 91 octane. However, you will find that most locations at higher elevations (over 5000 feet) only supply gas at up to 89 or 90 octane. This is OK due to the thinner air.
The trouble is that sometimes we then drive to a lower elevation before filling up, but I have never had a problem with this. The anti-knock sensor technology in the LS will retard the timing if necessary under load conditions to eliminate preignition. Theoretically, under extreme conditions, such as very hilly roads, fuel mileage might suffer a bit, and the engine would be a little down on power due to ignition retardation, but I've never been aware of it.
During extensive driving at above 8000 feet in Colorado and New Mexico, I was aware of some power loss that made me glad I have the V8 engine. I strongly suspect the V6 would have been wheezing up there, because I was really using the reserve end of the V8 power.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/46528/article.html
LS comes in 6th out of nine:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/46528/page007.html
The winner outhandles and outperforms the V8 LS even though the LS is many thousands more expensive, less sporty and 24% more thirsty:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/46528/page017.html
And remember, the Lincoln will cost even more over time because of resale value.
thorn: If one buys a car for resale value they are spending their money unwisely. I don't know of a car sold today under 6 figures that won't lose value over time. Resale also has more to do with area and the economy more than anything else. I really don't care what Edmunds or any other "oblective reviewer" has to day. I'll put my real world LS against any other RWD sedan. If you read the reviews objectively you'll notice that the "problem" areas are really nit-pickey. Most, if not all, of the first year gremlins have been fixed. For a first year car, the LS has been pretty trouble free. As to preceived quality, check out the TL, I30 and other import boards. They have their share of problems too. Heck, the BMW guys are worried about their auto trannies going at only 80k! The LS is a much maligned car as it truly hits the Black Forest where it hurts.
Regarding the torque converter, the difference, as I heard it, was that a slight slip could not be programmed into the LS', not that previous cars did not have torque converters.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/011031/l31250386_1.html
That third type of noise should be very easy to replicate. All you need to do is put your LS in 1st gear and keep it there. Get the car rolling and at about 4000 rpm's let off of the gas. An open window or 2 will help you hear the tranny making that noise.
It doesn't bother me at all, especially since that is the noise that was very similar to the way my dad's 1984 Grand Marquis tranny sounded in 1st gear. Since that tranny never failed up to 220,000 miles - I have no problem hearing it!
A slipping clutch has a durability risk, and requires more frequent transmission fluid changes. A slipping clutch greatly accelerates the breakdown of the transmission fluid.
We weighed this against the slight loss in engine isolation and chose to not have a slipping clutch.
Mark
If you want to toss your car around every now and then, but do it in comfort and style, go for the LS. Had mine for 2 years and 42,000 miles. Never even considered any FWD car, but did consider a used 5-series BMW. Glad I went with the LS.
Also, Stanny, when I owned my '91 SHO I modified it
from 220hp to 270hp via simple modifications offered by the "SHO SHOP" in Huntington Beach, CA.
For ex: lpm module, hi-flow cats and exhaust, underdrive pulleys, cold air induction, etc.
Is their a Lincoln LS guru out their that offers this kind aftermarket specialties?
If you have the time check out www.shoshop.com,
to see some good aftermarket examples.
thanks, ron
All kidding aside: 1)Buy the car. 2)Join LLSOC. Whatever becomes available, you'll be among the first to know. Not to mention the occasional significant price break for members. OTOH, you may be pleasantly surprised at how little the LS needs. Unless you're into drag racing, it darn near has it all, right out of the box.
I'd still like to know if anything has been done to completely eliminate the drone in the 2002's. Since having the half-shaft replacement the drone in my LS is reduced enough so it's not a big deal anymore but it's still NHV that shouldn't be in a car in the LS's price segment.
If V6's have the drone noise, then it makes sense that something else would be causing it and that it might not have been fully resolved as I assumed.
Being a former SHO and LS-V6-5M owner, I'll give some perspective between the two cars.
Before doing so, I'll qualify may response by stating that I believe the LS that I owned had a defective engine sensor. I say this because of responses on this board, but at the time, I chalked it up to being a California emission vehicle - the first that I ever owned. The acceleration was abysmal. See a motorweek review for an example of poor performance:
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt1839.shtml
Given my experience, and Motorweek's experience, I strongly recommend that you test drive an LS-V6 first before deciding to buy.
Numerous owners on this board have commented that the V6 manual lacks low-end grunt. If good off-the-line acceleration is of interest, you will likely be disappointed. Other owners, including myself, have commented about how easily the engine stalls - something foreign to an SHO owner. The engine rattles compared to the Shogun's singing. The transmission is MUCH better than the SHO's. The ride comfort of the sport suspension is considerably more comfortable than the SHO. The handling is a dream. The LS is FUN in the curves - any and all curves. The seats are more comfortable for long trips than the other cars you may be looking at. As someone on this board stated - "the arm rests are perfectly placed," which is very true.
Should you have difficulty finding a manual to test drive, contact:
jroger19@ford.com,
while Jim Rogers is now International sales instead of Lincoln sales, he has let it be known that he is willing to promote LS sales. He probably won't directly find a dealer with a manual, but I'm confident that he'll connect you with someone who can.
Best of wishes in you're car hunt....
The Lincoln's combination of luxury (such as power tilt and telescoping steering column, dual temperature controls, automatic windshield wipers, to mention a few items), size (we don't have to offend or discomfort our friends who ride in the back seat), reasonable trunk storage, very quiet interior, with good performance and GREAT handling all at an affordable price, I still rate the LS #1 for MY priorities.
I'm sure I'd love a BMW 3 series as a fun car, but it just won't cut it for the long distance travel we use our LS for because it is too small. Ditto for the Lexus IS 300, Volvo S60, and the Honda. I know that some of the competing cars are not nearly as quiet as the Lincoln. I have NEVER heard any body creaks or groans, and I have driven over all sorts of roads, and I think the transmission is almost ALWAYS in the right gear at the right time, except for mountain driving when I want to prevent unwanted upshifts, and then I use the SST mode.
The LS is both fun AND practical in addition to being extremely comfortable.
http://www.detroitnews.com/autosweekly/0110/31/drove/drove.htm
..."the shop received a newly released TSB for A-pillar frame weld breakage for the ML430. That's what it turned out to be. The welding repair is extensive requiring fender/light/liner removal, dashboard removal, and breaking out and replacing the FRONT WINDSHIELD. Our car was in the shop for almost three weeks." ...
Sometimes we just need some perspective.
I recently accepted a new job in Tempe, AZ, I have been here for three weeks now and I have only seen 1, that is ONE, LS on the road here. Where are you guys hiding?
Does anyone in the greater Phoenix area have a prefered dealer they like and would recommend?
Can anyone recommened a good window tinting firm?
After leading up with much drama about a Mercedes safety issue here's what happened:
An obvious soccer mom described how terrifying it was when she and the brats were travelling (flying low more likely) down GA-400 (aka the Alpharetta Autobahn) in their M and it just died and coasted to the shoulder. You know - a life and death experience.
Mercedes determined that the cause was that model uses a "switchblade" style key (I've seen them on VW's). And when said key has 10 pounds of souvenir key chains and crap swinging off of it, it can move the key to the "off" position causing the engine stall.
Apparently the news asked MB for their thoughts on people having large key fob collections and they said "That's Just Stupid"
A round of applause for Mercedes :-D
Re the M-class. From what I've read, this little puppy has been a quality/reliability nightmare for DCX. To me, it just illustrates that you can't build down to a price. I'm sure that if there was $70K Hyundai/Kia, it would be one great car.
I chuckle over Robert Lutz's memo, wherein he says that the auto should be an auto. He was quite negative about navigation systems; paraphrasing here, Why do motorist's need an implement when they are commuting on the same roads 80% of the time?
We want it all, even the bloody cup-holders. How did the cup-holder become all that important anyway? I agree with Mercedes' response to this "problem" and wonder how many more problems are created by drivers that exceed the parameters of the design of their vehicles.
I also agree with the good Doctor, but from what I understand, the SUV market is fraught with quality problems.
Dear Sirs:
Several points on your latest review of the Lincoln LS. Your editor should have read the owners manual. The Miles To Empty indicator still is there when the Low Fuel warning message appears. All she had to do was hit the Reset button and it would have gone back to the Miles To Empty indicator, which accurately tells you how many miles to empty you've got left. As a matter of fact, the Low Fuel message appears at 50 miles to empty, and reappears every 10 miles until you fill up. This is spelled out in the Owners Manual quite clearly. The lack of a basic understanding of how a car works is rather bothersome when to rectify it would have been a rather minor issue of RTFOM.
Secondly, Edmunds did not get preferential treatment for the brake rotors warping. Several of our owners have had the same problem and Lincoln and it's dealers have consistently treated this as a warranty item. Perhaps something that the German manufacturers that you enjoy to agrandize should take into consideration. This isn't a wear item unlike BMW who would charge $600 for a brake job.So, again you are wrong. Lincoln stands behind their product so your statement that "We don't think that the average LS owner can expect such tender care" is incorrect.
Thirdly, how does a transmission that doesn't shift as quick as your editor would like qualify as a "repair liability"? We track all of our owners problems and the automatic transmission that is in the LS has never shown up as a repair problem. Slow shifting has, along with inadequate refilling of the transmission fluid after a fluid change, but we have never had any issues with the transmission's reliability.
I believe that you owe the readers an apology for your incorrect statements.
But you did make a tiny error - the low fuel warning reappears every 10 minutes, not every 10 miles.
I have an idea - let's start a new section on llsoc.com writing our own reviews on automotive publications and journalists. I wonder where Edmunds would end up?
I like it
You're right. On my drive it happens to work out to be every ten miles from 50 on down, which is every ten minutes. Always learning something!
I concur with your assessment of the number of LSs cruising the streets of Phoenix . . . there's not alot of them around. I think I've been driving a rather exclusive vehicle for the past 2 years! However, I have been seeing more of them in the last 6 months.
I had my windows tinted by my dealer at the time of delivery. They actually sent it out to one of their detailers shops. I also had the interior wood trim kit installed at the same time. I added the mud guards about a month later. Check out my ride on the Photo section of the Edmunds LS Owners club area.
Hope this helps, my e-mail address is on my Edmunds profile, and can also be found on the LLSOC registry.
I also really like the fact that I don't recall getting less than 21 mpg mixed driving on a tank of gas and mostly got 23 or 24 mpg per tank over the summer. (Mostly 2-lane highway with some stop and go "city" driving.)
I must admit that some of you would probably be absolutely envious of my daily commute. Lots of hills/dales and curves on my 40 mile, one-way drive.
Can't see the reason for all the whining about the trunk hinges. They are way off to the sides and move into an area where I would never put anything.
Re: trunk hinges. Occassionally the hinges get in the way, especially when two large items are place side by side.
http://jwfisher.home.texas.net/ford.htm
(link on upper right of page)
Brian
http://www.insure.com/auto/safestcars.html