First off let me say that as a rule we are very passionate about our cars. We tend to be biased toward our LS'.
All the competition you listed are FWD cars. While they are fine cars the FWD platform just can't keep up with the superior balance, RWD and aluminum chassis of the LS. Along with my LS, I have a Duratec equipped '96 Sable. My LS runs rings around the Sable, and the LS has the V6. I won't win any stoplight races, but TRY and keep up in the twisties! There is an offramp going to work that is marked 40mph. I ROUTINELY take it at 80 and I don't have the sport suspension. The best my nose heavy FWD Sable can do is 68. The other cars are less expensive. I had an I30 for a rental a couple months ago. It was a fine car, but I couldn't wait to get back in my LS and go driving again. For pure driving pleasure you can't beat the RWD platform. Hey, the LS didn't earn Motor Trend's Car of the Year for nothing!
Edmunds complained about the tranny for 3 or 4 months before FINALLY having it reprogrammed with the 2001 software. There was only a engagement issue with the 2000's. The '01's are fine.
Have fun making your decision and hope you See the Light and buy the LS :~)
jhoffman61: I don't want to get in a battle here, but the cam chain whine and the drone have nothing to do with each other.
The cam chain whine is a harmonic resonance of the cam chains and is at a relatively high frequency and has nothing to do with torque converter lock up. You can hear the cam chain whine in neutral if you rev the engine to 1700 (+/-) RPM. Since the cam chain resonance is a weak resonance and it occurs in a flexable component (the chain) there is not much of a way it could be transmitted to the rest of the driveline.
The drone is actually the beating between 2 different resonances (that are close in frequency)in the driveline components and is at a low frequency (most likely the difference in the resonant frequencies of the 2 driveline components). It can occur when the engine is outside the RPM range that generates the cam chain whine.
There is a 3rd whine that others have referred to coming from transmission gears. I have no idea what that noise is like as my LS's tranny is very quiet and does not have this gear noise.
As an aside, most cars with automatic transmissions have had lock up torque converters since the early 1980's. I should know this very well as I was the project engineer for the productin equipment that welded the first GM lockup torque converters together. The equipment was delivered to GM in 1979 for production commencement for the either the 1980 or 1981 model years.
rdl40: I test drove a fair number of cars and chose the LS over the TL & I30. The TL & I30 were about the best of the front wheel drive cars but the LS & BMW 528 just plain felt different & much better than any of the FWD cars, like a 4 door sports car. Most FWD cars have 60 to 65% of their weight on the front wheels and therefore have a natural tendency to understeer (feel like they are plowing through a corner instead of turning into it) The LS has close to 50-50 weight distribution. This in combination with the LS's great suspension and the ability to use RWD to push the tail out it feels great in the corners. The biggest problem you will have will be the noises coming from the passenger seat (if so equiped) making all kinds screeching noises about taking the corners too fast. BMW was ruled out due to cost. I had the trannie reflash a few weeks ago and it has transformed the trannie from a mediocre one to a great one. Plain & simple the auto trannie is no longer a concern.
All is not roses, right now I'm not a happy LS customer, I love the LS, with the V8 it was exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately, I have a vibration that hasn't been able to be solved in 8 trips to the dealer service department. Since there are many other LS owners who have similar vibration complaints I suggest that if you buy a LS, get one out of dealer stock and take it for an extended test drive on a smooth interstate. Drive it for at least 20 miles at highway speed and pay close attention for any vibrations especially at 71 & 75 mph. Make sure you keep it at the same speed for a few miles to see if the vibration gets going. If you feel or hear anything walk away from the car because chances are slim you will be able to get it fixed.
I have had a 2000 Manual since 7/00. I ordered off specs since the dealers rarely stock the Manual. I am not disappointed. For less than 33k, I have the best handling car I have ever driven (I am 53 and have had HP cars since my first GTO) plus very adequate straight-line acceleration. The Manual is a sleeper. Virtually ignored by the automotive press, the Manual is simply the best performance value in 4 door RWD Manual sports sedans. Road testers have tested very green cars, and we LLSOC members have documented that the modified Duratech takes as much as 10,000 miles to "loosen-up". The 2002 model adds 10 hp by decreasing exhaust restriction and increasing air intake volume. Those of us with earlier models have added the Borla system and air box mods to achieve the same effect if you choose a used model. Where else can you find an exotic aluminum suspension, aluminum hood, trunk and front quarter panels, battery in the trunk with the goal of achieving 50-50 weight balance. In fact, the handling is more neutral than it's V-8 brethren. With 220hp, the Manual should equal the V-8 0-60 times. We are awaiting the first mag tests to see what the 2002 can do. My car was manufactured in 2/00 and sat ignored at an LA dealers lot for almost 4 months. Don't be frustrated that the dealer does not have a Manual for you to test drive. Don't be dissuaded by comments like "who wants to shift a luxury car?" etc. You can have the control of a true performance car and luxury as well. To the elite 2.5% of LS owners who drive one, the Manual is our little secret. With the Manual, the Sport options including oil cooler are standard. That makes it an even better value. If you choose the Manual LS, don't be afraid to bargain hard on the price. The dealers want to sell and there are not that many takers. The Manual is relatively unknown to the motoring public. It is not even on the radar screen. One intangible of great value which you will not find with any other marque is the unique comaradarie, events and knowledge of your fellow LS enthusiasts that make up the membership of the LLSOC. We regularly communicate with LS engineering and sales staff. They monitor the forum and answer our inquiries. As a result, we all know more about our cars than any other group of owners. I have 18,500 miles of enthusastic driving on my Manual with no mechanical problems. The Manual has had few complaints on this board. Unlike the Germanic brands, parts are available and less expensive. We fellow enthusiasts can guide you through aquisition and all other areas of LS ownership. In detail. Been there, done that. There is not a group as knowledgeable, caring and sharing as the LS enthusiasts on this forum and in LLSOC. If you have any doubt, go back to Brian's post of today featuring pictures of Mania II in Dearborn. Owning an LS is much more than driving a superb sports sedan. I hope to welcome you as a fellow LS Manual owner. Stanny1, Cone Killer Award Winner - Mania I
I have an '01 V8 Sport. We bought it for taking extended driving trips after retirement. We have put about 32K miles on the car with about 25K of that being on trips, I estimate. The mileage has improved after the engine break-in of about 10K miles. Overall mileage to date: 21.5 MPG Typical city mileage: 16.5 MPG Mileage at steady 100 MPH on level roads: 22.5 MPG Mileage at steady 60 MPH on level roads: 28 MPG (The last two were measured for about 100 miles immediately after filling the tank and resetting the mileage computer. The first in Nevada, the second in eastern Tennessee.) Typical interstate mileage at 75 MPH: 24.5 MPG Octane: Lincoln specifies at least 91 octane. However, you will find that most locations at higher elevations (over 5000 feet) only supply gas at up to 89 or 90 octane. This is OK due to the thinner air.
The trouble is that sometimes we then drive to a lower elevation before filling up, but I have never had a problem with this. The anti-knock sensor technology in the LS will retard the timing if necessary under load conditions to eliminate preignition. Theoretically, under extreme conditions, such as very hilly roads, fuel mileage might suffer a bit, and the engine would be a little down on power due to ignition retardation, but I've never been aware of it.
During extensive driving at above 8000 feet in Colorado and New Mexico, I was aware of some power loss that made me glad I have the V8 engine. I strongly suspect the V6 would have been wheezing up there, because I was really using the reserve end of the V8 power.
Hey Rene, my 6 with the Borla and airbox "upgrade" did really well above 6000 ft. We spent a few days driving around Breckenridge (10000ish ft) and I noticed a power loss, but not near as much as my Duratec equipped Sable! I really didn't notice much of a power loss touling (sp) around Denver either. If you don't mind the sound (I LOVE it!) the Borla really adds some power, at least in the 6.
thorn: If one buys a car for resale value they are spending their money unwisely. I don't know of a car sold today under 6 figures that won't lose value over time. Resale also has more to do with area and the economy more than anything else. I really don't care what Edmunds or any other "oblective reviewer" has to day. I'll put my real world LS against any other RWD sedan. If you read the reviews objectively you'll notice that the "problem" areas are really nit-pickey. Most, if not all, of the first year gremlins have been fixed. For a first year car, the LS has been pretty trouble free. As to preceived quality, check out the TL, I30 and other import boards. They have their share of problems too. Heck, the BMW guys are worried about their auto trannies going at only 80k! The LS is a much maligned car as it truly hits the Black Forest where it hurts.
FWD and sports sedan/car are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Notice how Acura uses RWD in the NSX. TL weight distribution would never permit the cornering prowess the LS achieves, regardless of how they set-up the suspension.
Thorn if you want to buy an overpriced Toyota or Honda thats fine. I'll give up a few of the reviewers points to drive a better looking car. The Accura looks like any other front wheel econo box from any number of makers. And speaking of depreciation the BMW seven hundred (I know it was not the one reviewed) series is king of that catagory. See ya.
Slunar, all I was doing was relaying what I thought I heard at LS Mania II. If there is a third type of noise (cam chain @ 1700rpm), it was not addressed in the discussions I heard.
Regarding the torque converter, the difference, as I heard it, was that a slight slip could not be programmed into the LS', not that previous cars did not have torque converters.
I was wondering when the LSE version of the 02 LS would be available? I've seen 1 photo of the profile in the LS brochure but would love to see more. Not sure if I should wait for this model before I purchase. Thanx Laxman '00 LS8
slunar That third type of noise should be very easy to replicate. All you need to do is put your LS in 1st gear and keep it there. Get the car rolling and at about 4000 rpm's let off of the gas. An open window or 2 will help you hear the tranny making that noise.
It doesn't bother me at all, especially since that is the noise that was very similar to the way my dad's 1984 Grand Marquis tranny sounded in 1st gear. Since that tranny never failed up to 220,000 miles - I have no problem hearing it!
There's a pretty good article about this in this weeks edition of Autoextremist in the "Rants" column. Come to think of it, I don't recollect seeing Autoextremist mentioned here before. It's not what it sounds like...it's a newsletter put out by a former ad agency exec that catered to the automotive industry. The guy has a lot of insight and experience that is hard to find elsewhere. It's the first thing I look at on Wed mornings when it is published. If you want to see what's going on behind the scenes check it out. The "On the Table" column is also very good and if you like racing there is a column on that too. If you've not visited the site before, be sure and check the archives...good reading. The URL is www.autoextremist.com
A slight torque converter clutch slip *COULD* have been programmed into the LS, but we chose not to.
A slipping clutch has a durability risk, and requires more frequent transmission fluid changes. A slipping clutch greatly accelerates the breakdown of the transmission fluid.
We weighed this against the slight loss in engine isolation and chose to not have a slipping clutch.
There's a pretty good article about this in this weeks edition of Autoextremist in the "Rants" column. Come to think of it, I don't recollect seeing Autoextremist mentioned here before. It's not what it sounds like...it's a newsletter put out by a former ad agency exec that catered to the automotive industry. The guy has a lot of insight and experience that is hard to find elsewhere. It's the first thing I look at on Wed mornings when it is published. If you want to see what's going on behind the scenes check it out. The "On the Table" column is also very good and if you like racing there is a column on that too. If you've not visited the site before, be sure and check the archives...good reading. The URL is www.autoextremist.com
Main point. FWD is horrendous for balance. LS is almost a perfect 50/50 weight balance with a better than worldclass aluminum suspension. All of that multi-valve HP that recent Nissans and Acuras are coming out with mean nothing if its not bolted to a solid, balanced platform. My LSV6 Auto/Sport is giving me lots of enjoyment, compared to a previous Maxima which did have a better engine, but horrendous FWD handling. Anyone ever wonder why there are NO FWD Mercedes, BMW's, or for that matter, Porsches, or Ferraris?
If you want to toss your car around every now and then, but do it in comfort and style, go for the LS. Had mine for 2 years and 42,000 miles. Never even considered any FWD car, but did consider a used 5-series BMW. Glad I went with the LS.
Thanks for everybody's input and comments about the the LS, it will make me a smarter shopper when time to buy. Also, Stanny, when I owned my '91 SHO I modified it from 220hp to 270hp via simple modifications offered by the "SHO SHOP" in Huntington Beach, CA. For ex: lpm module, hi-flow cats and exhaust, underdrive pulleys, cold air induction, etc. Is their a Lincoln LS guru out their that offers this kind aftermarket specialties? If you have the time check out www.shoshop.com, to see some good aftermarket examples. thanks, ron
There's not a lot out there yet, but you'll be happy to know that LLSOC is on the cutting edge. Our founder & president, Brian, aka ls1bmw0, has a lot of contacts, and has selflessly offered up his own car as the club's Project LS GT test platform for various modifications. Sometimes, he's even had to drive really fast cars just so he can report to the membership on aftermarket performance products! It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it, and we're grateful for his sacrifices.
All kidding aside: 1)Buy the car. 2)Join LLSOC. Whatever becomes available, you'll be among the first to know. Not to mention the occasional significant price break for members. OTOH, you may be pleasantly surprised at how little the LS needs. Unless you're into drag racing, it darn near has it all, right out of the box.
jhoffman61: If you have a LS V6 the cam chain whine is not an issue for you as the V6 doesn't whine. However (V6 owners can confirm this) I belive that the driveline drone is present in the V6's too. If the drone is in V6's too it would confirm that the V8 cam chain whine and the driveline drone are not directly related. I'd still like to know if anything has been done to completely eliminate the drone in the 2002's. Since having the half-shaft replacement the drone in my LS is reduced enough so it's not a big deal anymore but it's still NHV that shouldn't be in a car in the LS's price segment.
I have the V6 and have no drone, cam chain noise or tranny whine. Never did. Prior to the Borla the only sound heard was the radio and wind noise above 100 mph. There IS a whine in the passanger seat if 100 is approached too quickly. If you ease up to 100, the whine takes longer to develop The only cure I've found is to leave that seat empty
Ok, who switched the LS out for a Taurus in Edmund's latest comparison test? Maybe they got a lemon, but I've never heard the kind of complaints they had from any other tester. Brake fade? Shrill nag from the V8 near redline? Unrefined, gravel like feel? Couldn't be further from the truth. I don't think the LS could have won this test because performance was only 20% of the test, and some comments were on-target. Maybe the 2003 will change their minds. But I'm not holding my breath.
Being a former SHO and LS-V6-5M owner, I'll give some perspective between the two cars.
Before doing so, I'll qualify may response by stating that I believe the LS that I owned had a defective engine sensor. I say this because of responses on this board, but at the time, I chalked it up to being a California emission vehicle - the first that I ever owned. The acceleration was abysmal. See a motorweek review for an example of poor performance:
Given my experience, and Motorweek's experience, I strongly recommend that you test drive an LS-V6 first before deciding to buy.
Numerous owners on this board have commented that the V6 manual lacks low-end grunt. If good off-the-line acceleration is of interest, you will likely be disappointed. Other owners, including myself, have commented about how easily the engine stalls - something foreign to an SHO owner. The engine rattles compared to the Shogun's singing. The transmission is MUCH better than the SHO's. The ride comfort of the sport suspension is considerably more comfortable than the SHO. The handling is a dream. The LS is FUN in the curves - any and all curves. The seats are more comfortable for long trips than the other cars you may be looking at. As someone on this board stated - "the arm rests are perfectly placed," which is very true.
Should you have difficulty finding a manual to test drive, contact:
jroger19@ford.com,
while Jim Rogers is now International sales instead of Lincoln sales, he has let it be known that he is willing to promote LS sales. He probably won't directly find a dealer with a manual, but I'm confident that he'll connect you with someone who can.
After seeing the Lincoln LS V8 rated #6 and the comments associated with each rating, it is clear that the ratings reflect a set of priorities that are not really universal. Also, some of the comments about the LS-8's lack of refinement are simply wrong.
The Lincoln's combination of luxury (such as power tilt and telescoping steering column, dual temperature controls, automatic windshield wipers, to mention a few items), size (we don't have to offend or discomfort our friends who ride in the back seat), reasonable trunk storage, very quiet interior, with good performance and GREAT handling all at an affordable price, I still rate the LS #1 for MY priorities.
I'm sure I'd love a BMW 3 series as a fun car, but it just won't cut it for the long distance travel we use our LS for because it is too small. Ditto for the Lexus IS 300, Volvo S60, and the Honda. I know that some of the competing cars are not nearly as quiet as the Lincoln. I have NEVER heard any body creaks or groans, and I have driven over all sorts of roads, and I think the transmission is almost ALWAYS in the right gear at the right time, except for mountain driving when I want to prevent unwanted upshifts, and then I use the SST mode.
The LS is both fun AND practical in addition to being extremely comfortable.
That article sure looks like they liked the car. However, compairing it to an ES300:(?? The ES wouldn't be visible in the mirror as soon as the road starts twisting! As stanny1 said, and my experience also bears out, the 6 needs MANY thousand miles to loosen up. Mine was well over 5k before it started to surpass my Duratec equipped Sable. Now, with only 10 (or maybe more as I added the Borla and opened up the airbox) HP less, the Sable feels like a dog. Even the wife unit, who really doesn't know the difference between a tire and a wheel, notices the difference. If you test drive a V6, it will most likely disappoint. But, rest assured, it will loosen up and give many miles of enjoyment!
Just for grins, read the Edmunds comments on the 3rd place Volvo S60, then read this current review by Paul and Anita Lienert from detroitnews.com. I've always found their reviews to be very objective. You could do the same with any LS review as well. Makes you wonder if they were even driving the same vehicles. It's one thing to have different priorities or preferences but this is ridiculous.
..also depends on your situation, ie, 90% of the time I carry no cargo, and 80% of the time, I carry no passengers. The passengers I do carry are my 2 and 5 year old daughters. I weigh less than 170lbs myself. I live in the DC area, so this time of year is GREAT for the engine, as I can definitely feel the power difference the cooler, denser air is providing. Not having to run the A/C at all only helps more. A few hills, but this area definitely isnt mountainous, and I never pull any trailers or boats. For me and my situations as described above, the Duratec V6 is absolutely perfect. Ive never regretted not getting the LS V8, although Im certain everyone who has that extra torque and power, love it. As far as low-end torque, I never have a problem in daily driving situations, ie passing, merging, and the usual pointing and shooting through traffic.
At the Wixom factory tour, Lincoln indicated that LSE would be available mid-November. I would wait to see one before you decide on a non-LSE. It is a very nice package and the subtle differences are a nice change from the regular LS. I would certainly consider it instead of a stock LS. If you like the looks of the Bullit Mustang, you will be able to appreciate the LSE.
Reference Post # 5453 Mercedes M-Class Edmunds Board:
..."the shop received a newly released TSB for A-pillar frame weld breakage for the ML430. That's what it turned out to be. The welding repair is extensive requiring fender/light/liner removal, dashboard removal, and breaking out and replacing the FRONT WINDSHIELD. Our car was in the shop for almost three weeks." ...
I recently accepted a new job in Tempe, AZ, I have been here for three weeks now and I have only seen 1, that is ONE, LS on the road here. Where are you guys hiding?
Does anyone in the greater Phoenix area have a prefered dealer they like and would recommend?
That post made me think of some news I saw on the local TV station Sunday morning...
After leading up with much drama about a Mercedes safety issue here's what happened:
An obvious soccer mom described how terrifying it was when she and the brats were travelling (flying low more likely) down GA-400 (aka the Alpharetta Autobahn) in their M and it just died and coasted to the shoulder. You know - a life and death experience.
Mercedes determined that the cause was that model uses a "switchblade" style key (I've seen them on VW's). And when said key has 10 pounds of souvenir key chains and crap swinging off of it, it can move the key to the "off" position causing the engine stall.
Apparently the news asked MB for their thoughts on people having large key fob collections and they said "That's Just Stupid"
grizzleydad- I guess you haven't discovered LLSOC.com yet. Go over & check our registry where you will find that AZ is well-represented. Then check the dealer recommendation spot where you'll find a dealer in Tempe that is recommended by another member. I'm sure you'll hear more from some AZ natives.
Re the M-class. From what I've read, this little puppy has been a quality/reliability nightmare for DCX. To me, it just illustrates that you can't build down to a price. I'm sure that if there was $70K Hyundai/Kia, it would be one great car.
I totally agree with you summation. We American drivers have become way to distant from driving, it has become a mundane task.
I chuckle over Robert Lutz's memo, wherein he says that the auto should be an auto. He was quite negative about navigation systems; paraphrasing here, Why do motorist's need an implement when they are commuting on the same roads 80% of the time?
We want it all, even the bloody cup-holders. How did the cup-holder become all that important anyway? I agree with Mercedes' response to this "problem" and wonder how many more problems are created by drivers that exceed the parameters of the design of their vehicles.
I also agree with the good Doctor, but from what I understand, the SUV market is fraught with quality problems.
My 2 cents. The Edmunds reviewers are a bunch of frustrated pinheads. They are hating life because they are not working at one of the respected magazines test driving cars. The real tipoff for me was when one of the reviewers said the LS was overpriced for what you get. That is the direct opposite of what EVERY magazine review said. Hell everybody stated it was a bargin. These Edmunds guys think they can bolster their image by bashing the American car and the masses will thing they know what they are talking about if they like the BMW. I bought my LS for less than the buzz bomb 328 and I feel it drives like a 500 series. I'm happy.
A copy of yet another Letter to the Editor about their "road test" quality
Dear Sirs:
Several points on your latest review of the Lincoln LS. Your editor should have read the owners manual. The Miles To Empty indicator still is there when the Low Fuel warning message appears. All she had to do was hit the Reset button and it would have gone back to the Miles To Empty indicator, which accurately tells you how many miles to empty you've got left. As a matter of fact, the Low Fuel message appears at 50 miles to empty, and reappears every 10 miles until you fill up. This is spelled out in the Owners Manual quite clearly. The lack of a basic understanding of how a car works is rather bothersome when to rectify it would have been a rather minor issue of RTFOM.
Secondly, Edmunds did not get preferential treatment for the brake rotors warping. Several of our owners have had the same problem and Lincoln and it's dealers have consistently treated this as a warranty item. Perhaps something that the German manufacturers that you enjoy to agrandize should take into consideration. This isn't a wear item unlike BMW who would charge $600 for a brake job.So, again you are wrong. Lincoln stands behind their product so your statement that "We don't think that the average LS owner can expect such tender care" is incorrect.
Thirdly, how does a transmission that doesn't shift as quick as your editor would like qualify as a "repair liability"? We track all of our owners problems and the automatic transmission that is in the LS has never shown up as a repair problem. Slow shifting has, along with inadequate refilling of the transmission fluid after a fluid change, but we have never had any issues with the transmission's reliability.
I believe that you owe the readers an apology for your incorrect statements.
Good try, Brian! I can hear it now: "we don't think the average owner should have to read the owners manual."
But you did make a tiny error - the low fuel warning reappears every 10 minutes, not every 10 miles.
I have an idea - let's start a new section on llsoc.com writing our own reviews on automotive publications and journalists. I wonder where Edmunds would end up?
grizzleydad: If you keep up with this board, I think you'll find 3 reglar participants from the Valley of the Sun, including me. I purchased my LS8 sport from Jack-Ross L/M in the Tempe Autoplex in Sept.'99. While the purchase experience could have been better (long story, not entirely the dealership's fault), the service has been very good. Jack-Ross has another location in Tempe (north Tempe, near Scottsdale). While the garage/shop area(s) is nothing special to look at, the Service Manager has ALWAYS completely responded to my requests and needs in a timely fashion without fail. The Service Manager arranged to have the Transmission reflash per TSB 01-01-05 accomplished at Earnhardt's new Ford dealership on Ray road/I-10 because, at the time, he was unable to accomplish the work at his own shop. He set up the appointment within 2 days of my request, and we both watched the Earnhardt service tech perform the reflash in less than 20 minutes! (I was quite interested in seeing how it was done).
I concur with your assessment of the number of LSs cruising the streets of Phoenix . . . there's not alot of them around. I think I've been driving a rather exclusive vehicle for the past 2 years! However, I have been seeing more of them in the last 6 months.
I had my windows tinted by my dealer at the time of delivery. They actually sent it out to one of their detailers shops. I also had the interior wood trim kit installed at the same time. I added the mud guards about a month later. Check out my ride on the Photo section of the Edmunds LS Owners club area.
Hope this helps, my e-mail address is on my Edmunds profile, and can also be found on the LLSOC registry.
I am also totally thrilled with my V6. No extra cam whine or driveline vibrations at any speed! There's no doubt that the faster you go - the happier the duratec is!
I also really like the fact that I don't recall getting less than 21 mpg mixed driving on a tank of gas and mostly got 23 or 24 mpg per tank over the summer. (Mostly 2-lane highway with some stop and go "city" driving.)
I must admit that some of you would probably be absolutely envious of my daily commute. Lots of hills/dales and curves on my 40 mile, one-way drive.
After a few hundred miles I can see what everyone is talking about regarding the break dust. Does this situation slow down at some point? Can't see the reason for all the whining about the trunk hinges. They are way off to the sides and move into an area where I would never put anything.
I have about 27,000 miles on my 2000 V8 Sport. Brake dust is always an issue though some have tried using regular brake pads instead of Sport model pads which apparently cut down on the amount of dust.
Re: trunk hinges. Occassionally the hinges get in the way, especially when two large items are place side by side.
BON says they are about to publish hundreds of internal Ford documents showing known safety problems. Instead of going to Ford and asking them to validate or comment on them first, they plan to publish them on the web in violation of their permanent injunction. They think this is within the "spirit" of the court order. I think they're about to go down in flames. If they were really valid safety concerns they should take them to NHTSA after giving Ford a chance to refute or acknowledge them. BON doesn't even know if these "internal" documents are real. Unbelievable.
asked this question a few weeks ago, took time off from Town Hall, and am now about 1000 posts lost...I am asking if someone would re-answer so as to save me innumerable hours of re-reading posts...thank you in advance...the question was, I have heard that the HP ratings in the 2003 models (not too far away from now) of the V6 and V8 would be elevated, assuming that the Jag versions of the engines would also be raised...does anyone have any idea what the new HP ratings for both LS and Jag engines will be??? again, thank you for taking your time with this...
yes, assuming you have an LS with the Sport Package, switching your front pads to the frontpads used on the non-sport LS will reduce your brakedust approximately 90%. Did with mine, and Ive noticed zero ill-effects. I assume the non-sport pads probably fade somewhat sooner than the sport compounds, but it probably takes some very hard use to get that fade...
Comments
All the competition you listed are FWD cars. While they are fine cars the FWD platform just can't keep up with the superior balance, RWD and aluminum chassis of the LS. Along with my LS, I have a Duratec equipped '96 Sable. My LS runs rings around the Sable, and the LS has the V6. I won't win any stoplight races, but TRY and keep up in the twisties! There is an offramp going to work that is marked 40mph. I ROUTINELY take it at 80 and I don't have the sport suspension. The best my nose heavy FWD Sable can do is 68. The other cars are less expensive. I had an I30 for a rental a couple months ago. It was a fine car, but I couldn't wait to get back in my LS and go driving again. For pure driving pleasure you can't beat the RWD platform. Hey, the LS didn't earn Motor Trend's Car of the Year for nothing!
Edmunds complained about the tranny for 3 or 4 months before FINALLY having it reprogrammed with the 2001 software. There was only a engagement issue with the 2000's. The '01's are fine.
Have fun making your decision and hope you See the Light and buy the LS :~)
The cam chain whine is a harmonic resonance of the cam chains and is at a relatively high frequency and has nothing to do with torque converter lock up. You can hear the cam chain whine in neutral if you rev the engine to 1700 (+/-) RPM. Since the cam chain resonance is a weak resonance and it occurs in a flexable component (the chain) there is not much of a way it could be transmitted to the rest of the driveline.
The drone is actually the beating between 2 different resonances (that are close in frequency)in the driveline components and is at a low frequency (most likely the difference in the resonant frequencies of the 2 driveline components). It can occur when the engine is outside the RPM range that generates the cam chain whine.
There is a 3rd whine that others have referred to coming from transmission gears. I have no idea what that noise is like as my LS's tranny is very quiet and does not have this gear noise.
As an aside, most cars with automatic transmissions have had lock up torque converters since the early 1980's. I should know this very well as I was the project engineer for the productin equipment that welded the first GM lockup torque converters together. The equipment was delivered to GM in 1979 for production commencement for the either the 1980 or 1981 model years.
All is not roses, right now I'm not a happy LS customer, I love the LS, with the V8 it was exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately, I have a vibration that hasn't been able to be solved in 8 trips to the dealer service department. Since there are many other LS owners who have similar vibration complaints I suggest that if you buy a LS, get one out of dealer stock and take it for an extended test drive on a smooth interstate. Drive it for at least 20 miles at highway speed and pay close attention for any vibrations especially at 71 & 75 mph. Make sure you keep it at the same speed for a few miles to see if the vibration gets going. If you feel or hear anything walk away from the car because chances are slim you will be able to get it fixed.
plus very adequate straight-line acceleration. The Manual is a sleeper. Virtually ignored by the automotive press, the Manual is simply the best performance value in 4 door RWD Manual sports sedans. Road testers have tested very green cars, and we LLSOC members have documented that the modified Duratech takes as much as 10,000 miles to "loosen-up". The 2002 model adds 10 hp by decreasing exhaust restriction and increasing air intake volume. Those of us with earlier models have added the Borla system and air box mods to achieve the same effect if you choose a used model. Where else can you find an exotic aluminum suspension, aluminum hood, trunk and front quarter panels, battery in the trunk with the goal of achieving 50-50 weight balance. In fact, the handling is more neutral than it's V-8 brethren. With 220hp, the Manual should equal the V-8 0-60 times. We are awaiting the first mag tests to see what the 2002 can do. My car was manufactured in 2/00 and sat ignored at an LA dealers lot for almost 4 months. Don't be frustrated that the dealer does not have a Manual for you to test drive. Don't be dissuaded by comments like "who wants to shift a luxury car?" etc. You can have the control of a true performance car and luxury as well. To the elite 2.5% of LS owners who drive one, the Manual is our little secret. With the Manual, the Sport options including oil cooler are standard. That makes it an even better value. If you choose the Manual LS, don't be afraid to bargain hard on the price. The dealers want to sell and there are not that many takers. The Manual is relatively unknown to the motoring public. It is not even on the radar screen.
One intangible of great value which you will not find with any other marque is the unique comaradarie, events and knowledge of your fellow LS enthusiasts that make up the membership of the LLSOC. We regularly communicate with LS engineering and sales staff. They monitor the forum and answer our inquiries. As a result, we all know more about our cars than any other group of owners.
I have 18,500 miles of enthusastic driving on my Manual with no mechanical problems. The Manual has had few complaints on this board. Unlike the Germanic brands, parts are available and less expensive. We fellow enthusiasts can guide you through aquisition and all other areas of LS ownership. In detail. Been there, done that. There is not a group as knowledgeable, caring and sharing as the LS enthusiasts on this forum and in LLSOC. If you have any doubt, go back to Brian's post of today featuring pictures of Mania II in Dearborn. Owning an LS is much more than driving a superb sports sedan.
I hope to welcome you as a fellow LS Manual owner.
Stanny1, Cone Killer Award Winner - Mania I
Overall mileage to date: 21.5 MPG
Typical city mileage: 16.5 MPG
Mileage at steady 100 MPH on level roads: 22.5 MPG
Mileage at steady 60 MPH on level roads: 28 MPG
(The last two were measured for about 100 miles immediately after filling the tank and resetting the mileage computer. The first in Nevada, the second in eastern Tennessee.)
Typical interstate mileage at 75 MPH: 24.5 MPG
Octane: Lincoln specifies at least 91 octane. However, you will find that most locations at higher elevations (over 5000 feet) only supply gas at up to 89 or 90 octane. This is OK due to the thinner air.
The trouble is that sometimes we then drive to a lower elevation before filling up, but I have never had a problem with this. The anti-knock sensor technology in the LS will retard the timing if necessary under load conditions to eliminate preignition. Theoretically, under extreme conditions, such as very hilly roads, fuel mileage might suffer a bit, and the engine would be a little down on power due to ignition retardation, but I've never been aware of it.
During extensive driving at above 8000 feet in Colorado and New Mexico, I was aware of some power loss that made me glad I have the V8 engine. I strongly suspect the V6 would have been wheezing up there, because I was really using the reserve end of the V8 power.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/46528/article.html
LS comes in 6th out of nine:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/46528/page007.html
The winner outhandles and outperforms the V8 LS even though the LS is many thousands more expensive, less sporty and 24% more thirsty:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/46528/page017.html
And remember, the Lincoln will cost even more over time because of resale value.
thorn: If one buys a car for resale value they are spending their money unwisely. I don't know of a car sold today under 6 figures that won't lose value over time. Resale also has more to do with area and the economy more than anything else. I really don't care what Edmunds or any other "oblective reviewer" has to day. I'll put my real world LS against any other RWD sedan. If you read the reviews objectively you'll notice that the "problem" areas are really nit-pickey. Most, if not all, of the first year gremlins have been fixed. For a first year car, the LS has been pretty trouble free. As to preceived quality, check out the TL, I30 and other import boards. They have their share of problems too. Heck, the BMW guys are worried about their auto trannies going at only 80k! The LS is a much maligned car as it truly hits the Black Forest where it hurts.
Regarding the torque converter, the difference, as I heard it, was that a slight slip could not be programmed into the LS', not that previous cars did not have torque converters.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/011031/l31250386_1.html
That third type of noise should be very easy to replicate. All you need to do is put your LS in 1st gear and keep it there. Get the car rolling and at about 4000 rpm's let off of the gas. An open window or 2 will help you hear the tranny making that noise.
It doesn't bother me at all, especially since that is the noise that was very similar to the way my dad's 1984 Grand Marquis tranny sounded in 1st gear. Since that tranny never failed up to 220,000 miles - I have no problem hearing it!
A slipping clutch has a durability risk, and requires more frequent transmission fluid changes. A slipping clutch greatly accelerates the breakdown of the transmission fluid.
We weighed this against the slight loss in engine isolation and chose to not have a slipping clutch.
Mark
If you want to toss your car around every now and then, but do it in comfort and style, go for the LS. Had mine for 2 years and 42,000 miles. Never even considered any FWD car, but did consider a used 5-series BMW. Glad I went with the LS.
Also, Stanny, when I owned my '91 SHO I modified it
from 220hp to 270hp via simple modifications offered by the "SHO SHOP" in Huntington Beach, CA.
For ex: lpm module, hi-flow cats and exhaust, underdrive pulleys, cold air induction, etc.
Is their a Lincoln LS guru out their that offers this kind aftermarket specialties?
If you have the time check out www.shoshop.com,
to see some good aftermarket examples.
thanks, ron
All kidding aside: 1)Buy the car. 2)Join LLSOC. Whatever becomes available, you'll be among the first to know. Not to mention the occasional significant price break for members. OTOH, you may be pleasantly surprised at how little the LS needs. Unless you're into drag racing, it darn near has it all, right out of the box.
I'd still like to know if anything has been done to completely eliminate the drone in the 2002's. Since having the half-shaft replacement the drone in my LS is reduced enough so it's not a big deal anymore but it's still NHV that shouldn't be in a car in the LS's price segment.
If V6's have the drone noise, then it makes sense that something else would be causing it and that it might not have been fully resolved as I assumed.
Being a former SHO and LS-V6-5M owner, I'll give some perspective between the two cars.
Before doing so, I'll qualify may response by stating that I believe the LS that I owned had a defective engine sensor. I say this because of responses on this board, but at the time, I chalked it up to being a California emission vehicle - the first that I ever owned. The acceleration was abysmal. See a motorweek review for an example of poor performance:
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt1839.shtml
Given my experience, and Motorweek's experience, I strongly recommend that you test drive an LS-V6 first before deciding to buy.
Numerous owners on this board have commented that the V6 manual lacks low-end grunt. If good off-the-line acceleration is of interest, you will likely be disappointed. Other owners, including myself, have commented about how easily the engine stalls - something foreign to an SHO owner. The engine rattles compared to the Shogun's singing. The transmission is MUCH better than the SHO's. The ride comfort of the sport suspension is considerably more comfortable than the SHO. The handling is a dream. The LS is FUN in the curves - any and all curves. The seats are more comfortable for long trips than the other cars you may be looking at. As someone on this board stated - "the arm rests are perfectly placed," which is very true.
Should you have difficulty finding a manual to test drive, contact:
jroger19@ford.com,
while Jim Rogers is now International sales instead of Lincoln sales, he has let it be known that he is willing to promote LS sales. He probably won't directly find a dealer with a manual, but I'm confident that he'll connect you with someone who can.
Best of wishes in you're car hunt....
The Lincoln's combination of luxury (such as power tilt and telescoping steering column, dual temperature controls, automatic windshield wipers, to mention a few items), size (we don't have to offend or discomfort our friends who ride in the back seat), reasonable trunk storage, very quiet interior, with good performance and GREAT handling all at an affordable price, I still rate the LS #1 for MY priorities.
I'm sure I'd love a BMW 3 series as a fun car, but it just won't cut it for the long distance travel we use our LS for because it is too small. Ditto for the Lexus IS 300, Volvo S60, and the Honda. I know that some of the competing cars are not nearly as quiet as the Lincoln. I have NEVER heard any body creaks or groans, and I have driven over all sorts of roads, and I think the transmission is almost ALWAYS in the right gear at the right time, except for mountain driving when I want to prevent unwanted upshifts, and then I use the SST mode.
The LS is both fun AND practical in addition to being extremely comfortable.
http://www.detroitnews.com/autosweekly/0110/31/drove/drove.htm
..."the shop received a newly released TSB for A-pillar frame weld breakage for the ML430. That's what it turned out to be. The welding repair is extensive requiring fender/light/liner removal, dashboard removal, and breaking out and replacing the FRONT WINDSHIELD. Our car was in the shop for almost three weeks." ...
Sometimes we just need some perspective.
I recently accepted a new job in Tempe, AZ, I have been here for three weeks now and I have only seen 1, that is ONE, LS on the road here. Where are you guys hiding?
Does anyone in the greater Phoenix area have a prefered dealer they like and would recommend?
Can anyone recommened a good window tinting firm?
After leading up with much drama about a Mercedes safety issue here's what happened:
An obvious soccer mom described how terrifying it was when she and the brats were travelling (flying low more likely) down GA-400 (aka the Alpharetta Autobahn) in their M and it just died and coasted to the shoulder. You know - a life and death experience.
Mercedes determined that the cause was that model uses a "switchblade" style key (I've seen them on VW's). And when said key has 10 pounds of souvenir key chains and crap swinging off of it, it can move the key to the "off" position causing the engine stall.
Apparently the news asked MB for their thoughts on people having large key fob collections and they said "That's Just Stupid"
A round of applause for Mercedes :-D
Re the M-class. From what I've read, this little puppy has been a quality/reliability nightmare for DCX. To me, it just illustrates that you can't build down to a price. I'm sure that if there was $70K Hyundai/Kia, it would be one great car.
I chuckle over Robert Lutz's memo, wherein he says that the auto should be an auto. He was quite negative about navigation systems; paraphrasing here, Why do motorist's need an implement when they are commuting on the same roads 80% of the time?
We want it all, even the bloody cup-holders. How did the cup-holder become all that important anyway? I agree with Mercedes' response to this "problem" and wonder how many more problems are created by drivers that exceed the parameters of the design of their vehicles.
I also agree with the good Doctor, but from what I understand, the SUV market is fraught with quality problems.
Dear Sirs:
Several points on your latest review of the Lincoln LS. Your editor should have read the owners manual. The Miles To Empty indicator still is there when the Low Fuel warning message appears. All she had to do was hit the Reset button and it would have gone back to the Miles To Empty indicator, which accurately tells you how many miles to empty you've got left. As a matter of fact, the Low Fuel message appears at 50 miles to empty, and reappears every 10 miles until you fill up. This is spelled out in the Owners Manual quite clearly. The lack of a basic understanding of how a car works is rather bothersome when to rectify it would have been a rather minor issue of RTFOM.
Secondly, Edmunds did not get preferential treatment for the brake rotors warping. Several of our owners have had the same problem and Lincoln and it's dealers have consistently treated this as a warranty item. Perhaps something that the German manufacturers that you enjoy to agrandize should take into consideration. This isn't a wear item unlike BMW who would charge $600 for a brake job.So, again you are wrong. Lincoln stands behind their product so your statement that "We don't think that the average LS owner can expect such tender care" is incorrect.
Thirdly, how does a transmission that doesn't shift as quick as your editor would like qualify as a "repair liability"? We track all of our owners problems and the automatic transmission that is in the LS has never shown up as a repair problem. Slow shifting has, along with inadequate refilling of the transmission fluid after a fluid change, but we have never had any issues with the transmission's reliability.
I believe that you owe the readers an apology for your incorrect statements.
But you did make a tiny error - the low fuel warning reappears every 10 minutes, not every 10 miles.
I have an idea - let's start a new section on llsoc.com writing our own reviews on automotive publications and journalists. I wonder where Edmunds would end up?
I like it
You're right. On my drive it happens to work out to be every ten miles from 50 on down, which is every ten minutes. Always learning something!
I concur with your assessment of the number of LSs cruising the streets of Phoenix . . . there's not alot of them around. I think I've been driving a rather exclusive vehicle for the past 2 years! However, I have been seeing more of them in the last 6 months.
I had my windows tinted by my dealer at the time of delivery. They actually sent it out to one of their detailers shops. I also had the interior wood trim kit installed at the same time. I added the mud guards about a month later. Check out my ride on the Photo section of the Edmunds LS Owners club area.
Hope this helps, my e-mail address is on my Edmunds profile, and can also be found on the LLSOC registry.
I also really like the fact that I don't recall getting less than 21 mpg mixed driving on a tank of gas and mostly got 23 or 24 mpg per tank over the summer. (Mostly 2-lane highway with some stop and go "city" driving.)
I must admit that some of you would probably be absolutely envious of my daily commute. Lots of hills/dales and curves on my 40 mile, one-way drive.
Can't see the reason for all the whining about the trunk hinges. They are way off to the sides and move into an area where I would never put anything.
Re: trunk hinges. Occassionally the hinges get in the way, especially when two large items are place side by side.
http://jwfisher.home.texas.net/ford.htm
(link on upper right of page)
Brian
http://www.insure.com/auto/safestcars.html