Lincoln LS

akirby · November 2001

Same story was on detroitnews.com. That story sounded like the dealer only had to use the no resell agreement if they suspected the customer of being a broker, not for everyone. Ford told dealers if they were caught selling to a broker (even inadvertently) that they would lose their entire allocation of Tbirds. Nothing they can do about dealer markups, though.

rgnmstr · November 2001

<<<<< Ford told dealers if they were caught selling to a broker (even inadvertently) that they would lose their entire allocation of Tbirds. >>>>>>>

I would think the anti-trust lawyers would have a field day with this. Once a manufacture sells a product to one of his authorized dealers he has no say in what happens after that.

alphanstein · November 2001

Your point might be valid if manufacturers did sell their inventory, but in reality, most dealers lease/borrow on loan the inventory either through the manufacturer or another financial backer.

A manufacturer can hold back new inventory and use this as a threat to control dealers. If it were me, I would do the same.

rgnmstr · November 2001

<<<<<<<<Your point might be valid if manufacturers did sell their inventory, but in reality, most dealers lease/borrow on loan the inventory either through the manufacturer or another financial backer. >>>>>>>>

As far as I know all dealers floor plan their inventory with a finance company. Anti trust laws don't care how product is being paid for when it's in a dealer's inventory.

airwolf1000 · November 2001

But at the same time it is not the Dealers products to do as they please with hence the Lease/Borrow you stated. You still must abide to some extent by guidelines set forth by the Leasor.

jhoffman61 · November 2001

Didn't Ferrari try to stop speculation on one of their recent cars? I seem to recall that they required a buyer to sign an agreement not to sell their car within the first six months. (I think they could sell back to Ferrari during that period) ?

Obviously this doesn't stop a dealer from trying to sell for more money but it would address the brokers. Whether it was enforceable, don't know.

fantom · November 2001

Anyone who would give a dealer or broker upwards of $50K for a topless, two seat, semi-plastic, LS wearing the T-Bird badge, has more dollars than cents -- and is getting just what they deserve IMHO.

drolds1 · November 2001

It's as true as ever: "no one ever went broke underestimating the American public."

There never seems to be a shortage of people with more money than brains, does there?

fantom · November 2001

For about the same money one could get the best sports car in the world, at that price, a Porsche Boxter, fairly well optioned out.

How about a MB 320 or one of those little BMWs -- for less money? Heck, wait a few months for the "first kid on the block" syndrome to subside and you could probably pick up a Lexus 430 convertible in the low to mid $50s.

After the novelty wears off I think the T-Bird, as viewed at Wixom, is going to be a big bust. Appears to me Lincoln engineering and manufacturing is WAY ahead of their advertising and market research.

mtnh · November 2001

brunobus · November 2001

The F50 was a lease only car during its production (I think they run about $500K a pop). But here you are talking about a very limited production car, something like 600 copies. I think we saw more T-Birds than that just sitting in the factory at Wixom.

The other thing that Ferrari does is that they are treat their repeat new purchase customers with a lot more clout than anyone else. The more Ferrari's you buy new, the higher up on the list you are placed when new models come out. They don't play by the first come first serve rules.

That also played along with the lease on the F50. Not only could you not purchase one outright (no matter how much money you had) but only selected people could lease them. I think the lease terms ran for 2 years and then you had the option to purchase the car.

Bruno

fantom · November 2001

Has anyone successfully removed the rather unattractive visor air bag warning stickers? I know...I know, probably breaking a gazillion local, state and federal rules, regulations and laws.

What I'm thinking of doing is removing the visors, cutting paper towel overlays for the stickers, soaking the towels in denatured alcohol, placing the damp towels over the stickers for about 5 minutes, then carefully and slowly pealing off the stickers.

Will probably have to clean off some adhesive residue from the visors. Any thoughts, advise, cautions, what do you think?

rgnmstr · November 2001

<<<<<<But at the same time it is not the Dealers products to do as they please with hence the Lease/Borrow you stated. You still must abide to some extent by guidelines set forth by the Leasor. >>>>>>>>

I don't know why you continue to argue this. I've been a manufactures rep for over 20 years and when a manufacture ships product to a dealer no matter who's financing the product the ownership transfers to the retail dealer. If a dealer is floor planning through a 3rd party and defaults the floor plan company can then, through the courts, take ownership of the product.

brucelinc · November 2001

Fantom, you had better turn yourself in to the authorities at once. Before you do, though, let us know if your removal method works on those eyesores. ;-)

I was in Palm Springs last week on business and was pleasantly surprised by all of the LSs I saw on the road. Couldn't throw a cat without hitting one. Several S-Types, too. I was thinking what great taste those folks had when I spotted a green Sport with a gold vinyl/cloth top. Painful.

heyjewel · November 2001

I spotted an ugly LS on hiway 17 here yesterday. Drivers side rear window was down and ugly piece of cardboard taped in it's place.

Perhaps Lincoln could supply a decorative window covering until they can supply parts to fix this ridiculous problem.

johnnylinc · November 2001

I remember that, when I took delivery, my salesman warned me that the child anchor indicators on the rear seat leather are silkscreened on. He said that, even though they look like stick-ons, to be sure to NOT try to remove them because the leather would be damaged.

I don't recall him mentioning the visor stickers--there's probably a federal law that prohibits a dealer or manufacturer from talking about them. You might try asking your dealer/salesman if they're silkscreened, too; if they are, then attempted removal would probably damage the visor (and I'd hate to think what one visor costs.)

My advice? Proceed with EXTREME caution or, better yet, don't proceed at all.

johnnylinc · November 2001

Has anyone found photos of the "Sport Edition" LS shown by Lincoln at the SEMA show? It was mentioned in the article linked by akirby & quoted by Brian. I don't believe it's the same car as the "Brostol" LS that Karzz linked from Hot Rod mag.

Autoweek has a bunch of SEMA photos online; 10 are Hondas, 15 are GM products. The only two Fords are the SVT Focus and a Harley pickup. The SEMA website says that photos will be online "soon", but I was hoping for "now". I've searched a bunch of sites and haven't found anything--Auto News usually has 'em, but not this year as yet.

Inquiring LS fanatics want to know!

ezaircon4jc · November 2001

I was warned by my dealer that they were silk screened on and trying to remove them would damage the visor. I guess that's yet another thing for which we can thank "Big Brother"

.

heyjewel · November 2001

Where are u in the Bay Area?

I'm in South Bay and you could drive my broken-in V6 manual if we can work out the logistics.

scottc8 · November 2001

re heyjewel's post: My driver's side rear regulator broke yesterday afternoon. Called the service dept., went in at 3 PM today, drove out at 3:45, fixed. Can't say I'm happy about it, wish the final version of the part was available, but I can't complain about the way the defect was taken care of. And this is a relatively small LM dealer.

fantom: The T-Bird is not a sports car, and nobody claims it to be. In fact, it's less a sports car than our LS, softer suspension and a less rigid body shell. Sitting in one is just like sitting in an LS (unless you're tall). Sitting in a BMW roadster makes my old TR7 feel downright spacious, even for a little guy like me. Apples & oranges. I'll agree the T-Bird is an impractical toy with limited appeal, but bear in mind that it's not Ford that's asking $50k+ for the car. It's not worth anywhere near sticker price to me either, but might be to enough people to buy up the limited numbers they're building at Wixom.

johnnylinc · November 2001

I think that there are several ways to look at this issue. For one thing, pure capitalism says that something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If a person pays fifty or sixty large for a 'Bird, then that's what it's worth. (Certainly not to me!)

I believe that the Ferrari in question is the 550 Barchetta--the limited-production open-top low-windscreen 550. Ferrari tried to require buyers to agree to give Ferrari first refusal on buying back the car at the original purchase price for the first year of ownership; that is, if you bought one, you couldn't sell it without giving Ferrari first crack, and at THEIR price, not yours. Litigation was threatened; I don't know where it stands.

While most dealers floorplan their cars, not all do. I know of a large dealer in Austin that's always paid for all his new vehicles upfront; as far as I know, he still does. The obvious benefit is that the dealer doesn't have an interest liability; that has to be weighed against alternate uses of the money, and tax laws have to be figured in as well. On the surface it would seem to be an attractive policy, but I don't know the ins and outs, and most dealers probably can't handle the cash outlay required.

I can't see where there'd be anything illegal about a dealer who sells a car at a specific price with a buyback proviso. If I were a dealer, I'd like to think my policy would be to never sell a car for more than MSRP, because it would seem to be a good way to engender customer loyalty & enhance the chance for repeat business. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be the middle man for a broker who would flip hot sellers, so my requiring a buyback option would seem reasonable in that case.

If, however, a manufacturer tries to require a dealer to do business that way, a whole other set of ramifications are involved, many of which have been mentioned in prior posts. It's a sticky wicket. I can see where a manufacturer wouldn't want its brand(s) sullied by the taint of frequent/rampant speculation--that would certainly leave a bad impression in some buyers.

Is it unethical for one manufacturer to try to get retailers to sell something at a LOWER (e.g. MSRP) price? Price-fixing traditionally involves multiple manufacturers colluding to fix prices at an artificially high level, I think.

One more point: Many of us, myself included, have applauded Lincoln's thrust to prevent dealers from adding those godawful carriage tops to LSs. I personally think it's GREAT that Lincoln is trying to build and maintain a certain aura for the LS that doesn't include exterior vinyl. Is this, however, any different from a manufacturer trying to prevent extreme markups on a hot model by requiring dealers to sell them in a certain way?

Perhaps this isn't an appropriate topic for lengthy discussion on this forum, but it certainly seems to have an interesting set of factors & possibilities...

ls1bmw0 · November 2001

John,

The Sport Edition LS is actually the SVC supercharged LS. You can check it out at www.specialvehicles.com.

Brian

johnnylinc · November 2001

Aha! I didn't realize that the SEMA car was the SVC special; I figured Lincoln did it inhouse.

Thanks for the info, O Wizard of the LS! ;-) I was gonna suggest that we start calling you "Poobah", but it might get shortened, and that just wouldn't be right. Hehheh...

Gracias, mi amigo, as always.

scottc8 · November 2001

Happy Birthday! I'm told you don't like having a fuss made, so blame Ray. That's always a good policy.:)

akirby · November 2001

This has nothing to do with anti-trust laws.

Ford's sales contract with it's 4100 dealers forbids the dealer from selling to brokers. Plain and simple. Violation of that agreement allows Ford to withdraw that dealer's allotment of vehicles. Here's the link. You can read for yourself.

http://www.detroitnews.com/2001/autos/0111/07/c01-336388.htm

drolds1 · November 2001

Hey, George. Where ya been, buddy? I about gave up on you.

Re the visor stickers. I remember a post from long, long ago in which the author stated that he was having the visors reupholstered.

Does anybody besides me remember (back before electric lights) when SEMA stood for "Speed Equipment Mfrs. Association", before that appellation became politically incorrect? Of course, it would never have become what it is today with such a narrow focus.

gregwo · November 2001

What if... the fine folks at Joshua Tree made a nice wood grain piece that covered the silkscreen. Or get a piece of walnut burl veneer and do it yourself... There are a million things that one can do to rid the LS of STUPID and UGLY warning labels... cover it with 105MPH speeding tickets :-(

markls8 · November 2001

fantom - The stickers on my car (FEB '00) are not screened on, but are on a second textile which is fixed to the visor fabric. I would suggest using the heat of an iron (test the corner first) to try to loosen it if your alcohol trick doesn't do it. It might be pretty ugly underneath though. If all else fails - the fabric spray "paint" that they sell for automotive interiors should cover it up, or minimize its ugly prominence. A slightly different shade from the rest of the interior shouldn't be that objectionable (but maybe you're fussier than I am). I've used this stuff to rejuvenate faded interiors in past cars that I've had and it works quite well. Good luck - Let us know how you make out. -Brian.

alphanstein · November 2001

While I didn't remove them in the LS, I did in another vehicle that had two stickers on each visor. The two were of separate adhesive types, but with a little effort, I was able to grab a corner of each and remove them. The smaller (anti-rollover) sticker had a stronger adhesive, but neither left a residue. All that was left was the ouline of the smaller stickers. The larger airbag sticker left no traces.

Figure, if you mess it up, all you need do is buy a new visor, but based on my attempt, it should come off with ease.

fantom · November 2001

Thanks for all the good advise guys. I'm about a week away from this experiment. I'm going to see if my local dealer has an old visor for the test. Plus I plan to speak, unofficially of course, to their parts and body shop guys.

If not I'll probably attempt it on the upper portion of the visor and not be surprised if I still need some of that fabric spray "paint" Brian mentioned.

If I'm not in jail after the test I'll give an update.

johnnylinc · November 2001

Yeah, I'm old enough. Conjures up memories of Hooker Headers, Mooneyes, Gratiot Auto Supply, Mr. Norm, Hilborn Injection, and Royal Bobcat; don't know if they were part of the original SEMA, but they were of the era.

Right around the time I was putting those little "eye" decals on my model cars, George Barris turned the Lincoln Futura into the Batmobile. Is that a tenuous LS connection, or what?

Holy Flashback, Batman!

leadfoot4 · November 2001

Unbelievable news arrived in my mailbox from Publishers Clearinghouse yesterday. If I happen to have the "winning" number, they're going to award me a brand new T-Bird for Christmas !!!
I wonder if THEY have to get it through a broker in order to have it by then......

drolds1 · November 2001

Thanks, John. That feels better. I thought it might have been another senior moment. BTW- I'm looking at an ad for Keystone wheels from the 1/71 issue of Hot Rod magazine in which it states that SEMA specs are met.

Didn't we see that Batmobile at the Peterson Museum in Jan?

akirby · November 2001

In the back of Car and Driver this month is an ad for a raffle of a T-bird by some chamber of commerce. They're selling 2002 raffle tickets for $100 each. That's over $200,200. That doesn't sound like a retail sale to me (assuming they bought it from a dealer). I wonder if Ford is checking up on the dealers that sold these vehicles.

akirby · November 2001

This was also in this months C&D letters section (paraphrased - don't have it in front of me right now):

Thanks for the test and pictures of the heavily disguised Cadillac CTS. I can't wait to see what it looks like when they remove the ugly fake front grill and rear quarter panels.

ROTFLMAO

akirby · November 2001

BTW - I started a 2002 Thunderbird forum if anyone is interested.

thomas_l · November 2001

The dealers will do whatever they want despite the so-called ultimatum from Ford. Chrysler dealers stroked the PT Cruiser and so do the Chevy dealers with every new flavor of the Corvette. If a dealer can get $50-60k for a T-bird then so be it. If you don't like that price DON'T BUY ONE YET!

Ford (or any other OEM) can always use the franchise ploy to threaten with - but when was the last time you saw them actually do it? And don't count dealers that were on the way out anyway (i.e. broken down building, going bankrupt, etc).

Yah - I can see North Point Ford's (aka Auto Nation) turn into a Kia dealer overnight because they made too much money on a T-bird...NOT

wcolby · November 2001

My car has 26,000 miles on it and has always had a noticeable ping regardless of brand of Hi-Test used. No additive did away with the ping either. The dealer has previously tried everything they knew of to no avail.

Now the ping is very loud--sounds like the engine is on verge of "having the big one". There is no way it can last with this amount of distress. Driving up my street heads turn as I drive by. It happens between 35 and 55 under slight load--usually going up hill. Very noticeable inside the car.

I have an appointment for next Monday with the dealer again and have told them to fix or replace. They still do not have a plan other than to check it over once again.

Have others had this problem? If so what was the resolution. By the way the car has the latest computer program (the one from the 2001's).

Ford Executives--any suggestions for my dealer?

Otherwise I love the car. I should be thankful that all my windows have the original parts and have never fallen!!

joe166 · November 2001

Don't bother with the Publishers Clearing House drawing. I got one of those too (I think Ed McMahon personally wrote my letter) and my interpretation of the language of the letter was that I had already won the car. I am anxiously awaiting delivery right now. Of course, I vote in Florida, so that might have something to do with my terminal credulity. I am counting on winning it and so I am selling all my other cars at a loss. If I don't win, I will get a lawyer and sue them! They can't deceive me like that.

leadfoot4 · November 2001

The thing to keep in mind is that they seem to be awarding two of them, because they asked me if I wanted a red one or a yellow one. I picked the red one, so you must be getting the yellow one, right ???

airwolf1000 · November 2001

A friend of mine who has a Black LS has this issue. Unfortunately back home in El Paso they only have 86,88 and 91 octane. But then again the LS Is Rated for 91 Octane gas.. He had that problem with his first LS which was replaced due to a similar problem, window failures (Heat is the cause of Failure --El Paso gets to a little over a hundred easily). Same problem though with new LS, Pinging and One window is taped up as we speak. I saw his window a little before we went to MANIA II, I brought up the Window issue with the engineers and that is when they explained the failure and resolution, and we ran out of time and didn't explain the pinging.

I do think there is a TSB out for pinging though....

Regards,

Victor.
P.S. Sorry but no solution... Just wanted to let you know It is a problem and I notified the Engineers at Wixom of my friends dilemma.

mtnh · November 2001

I found a V6 manual on autotraderdotcom (dot == . my 2 posts yesterday had the . in there and did not make it aboard, so I figured possible filtering, why not try the spelled dot) at Diablo LM in Concord, used with 31K miles. That would be a good place to try one, but as George has offered, the used route may be not worth it. I found my car the same way, with only 9K on the clock, in service for a total of 5 months before being repoed and auctioned by Ford's credit arm. The V6 manual is very fun to drive, and turned out to be better than I expected, and I had high expectations. I got a free upgrade into an LS8 at San Jose International back in January, and fell in love with the car in just one drive from Redwood City to Half Moon Bay. Even more fun was the twisty road off of rt 92 known as Skyline Blvd. I began my search when I found out that the car was offered in a manual transmission, and that the car was in the price range of most cars and SUVs. I was replacing a Peugeot 405 Mi16, which I had accumulated 275K miles on, and despite its front wheel drive architecture, the car, weighing in at around 2800 lbs, had no torque steer and could pull a .82g on the skidpad, as well as being gifted with a suspension that actually had obtainable OVERsteer! There was simply nothing left on the market that interested me besides the LS, with its 4 doors and rear-wheel drive. With my Mi16 still factory-fresh, I needed a way out of it, and the "rev-limiter" said that I could not pass it down to my new-driver 16-year-old son. Some lady from south america kindly helped me out of the Mi16 with a swift kiss of the right rear corner of the car from behind, which totalled the car out at around $3K. Just at that time, a Ford dealer in Massachusetts had obtained my car at auction and was having trouble moving it. That all ended when I appeared, driving my totalled Mi16 with a decent repair job to clear the wheel well of interference caused by the crash. I ended up paying $50 to keep the totalled the car, and sold it to a nice youngster who had two like it, with neither in running condition, for parts. I sure miss the cost of ownership of the Peugeot, but the V6M LS is worth every penny it costs to drive it. I have added 9K miles to the clock in the just under 4 months of owning it, and my commute is only around 25 miles. This car is a pleasure to drive, and I feel rejuvenated every time that I drive it 100 miles and get out of the seat at my destination.

Mike Taylor, Nashua, NH

marsha7 · November 2001

just hope that they don't send you a butterfly ballot for your contest entry

:):)

akirby · November 2001

North Point Khia? You missed it by about 3 miles. Wade L/M is now selling Kias right alonside the LS.

The point was that dealers could not sell to brokers (which is really selling wholesale instead of retail). Ford has not issued any warnings about what price they can fetch. I say if there are people willing to pay $50K then that's what I would charge them, too! A fool and his money......

Remember the Miata?

lolaj42 · November 2001

Per your comment

"do you know how small of particles doesn't get filtered out between a stock paper and a K&N? Too small to do any harm."

What experience or information can you refer us to that would support this claim? If true, I wouldn't think twice about installing a K&N filter, but without such data, I would be reluctant to use it. This issue was another "hot topic" of debate some time ago, yet no conclusive evidence supporting K&N's claims have ever been reported. This issue was one area where I actually AGREED with GIOWA! (gadzooks!!)

ls1bmw0 · November 2001

the PT Cruiser?

akirby · November 2001

The Pontiac Aztek?

(maybe that's a bad example)

ls1bmw0 · November 2001

Here's an article talking about Ford shoring up their luxury division, PAG. Richard Parry-Jones is going to handle the day-to-day operations. Richard was a big proponent of the LS.

Here's the link from Autonews.com

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=904

rdl40 · November 2001

I'm in the east bay (Dublin-San Ramon). I can meet any time on any weekend.
Thanks, ron

heyjewel · November 2001

Artie;

Thanks for noticing. Been busy as heck. New baby girl 3 weeks ago, and then of course work work work. Been lurking and having fun driving my LS. Oh, and waving good riddance to Jacques.

Ron: OK, let's talk offline. My email address is in my profile. If you include a phone number I'll call and perhaps we can meet this weekend.

George

Lincoln LS

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