Thanks for your input. Please bear with me, because I might have some stupid questions here, but I am still trying to educate myself on how to negotiate a deal to that level of savings...
1) I can understand where a dealer typically does'nt want to be underpriced by another and lose a sale, but how competitive can I expect them to be when the selling price is below invoice (if I threaten to travel a few hours away to get a better deal - which I am not opposed to)? I assume that I will need something in writing/email from the other dealers in order to be taken seriously?
2) If it is commonplace to get an Odyssey for approx $500 under invoice, then is the 'invoice' cost we use as buyers really what the dealer pays, or is there usually some kind of cusion, that still makes selling the vehicle at this level feasible? Will the dealer actually lose money on the deal (in hopes of making it up on a subsequent customers)?
Again, my apologies for some ignorant questions, but perhaps I am not the only one pondering over some of these things. Thanks again for this boards insights!
" I can understand where a dealer typically does'nt want to be underpriced by another and lose a sale, but how competitive can I expect them to be when the selling price is below invoice (if I threaten to travel a few hours away to get a better deal - which I am not opposed to)?"
How competitive? Well let's see. If you are quoted a price under invoice, then the dealer will probably make no effort to bend or cave to a lower price. They will figure what they have to make in order for them to feel decent about doing the deal.
Please understand that the Odyssey is a very seasonal product...and that season is coming upon us. Dealers will sell every Odyssey on their lots and that are inbound...irregardless whether you say you're going out of the area or not. I think that's something that most of you all don't realize.
If it is commonplace to get an Odyssey for approx $500 under invoice, then is the 'invoice' cost we use as buyers really what the dealer pays, or is there usually some kind of cusion, that still makes selling the vehicle at this level feasible? Will the dealer actually lose money on the deal (in hopes of making it up on a subsequent customers)?"
Do you just realize what you said? How would you feel if a dealer said that to you? Or if you heard a salesman next to you say to his customer?
Anything at or below invoice is a very good price on an Odyssey.
What is the best price I can pay for a 2006 Honda Ody with Nav/Res. The last offer I had was $35,000 plus TTL. Is this a good price or should I shop for more?. Honda Care Warranty--5yrs/100,000-0 ded.--$751. Is this a good deal?...Thx Kris
"...They will figure what they have to make in order for them to feel decent about doing the deal."
This is the reason for my questions. Do dealers still make money selling a unit below invoice? If not, then why do they do this? For a below invoice price to be considered the 'target range' for this vehicle, it must happen pretty often. What justification do I have to expect to buy an Odyssey at below invoice? Sure, I'll be driving a pretty vehicle around town, offering brand recognition and advertising the specific dealers sticker on the back, not to mention any word of mouth references. Is this what persuades a dealer to sell a vehicle below invoice even if they might be in the red on the deal? They can't do this for everyone. Unless Honda dealers get a 'bonus' from the manufacturer if they meet a sales quota for the month/quarter?
"Do you just realize what you said? How would you feel if a dealer said that to you? Or if you heard a salesman next to you say to his customer?"
Sounds like you work in the car business. No disrespect intended. Of course you wouldnt say something like that, but if the dealer does a deal that is not at all profitable, then they are probably thinking it... I am just trying to make sense of the whole below invoice thing.
"Please understand that the Odyssey is a very seasonal product..."
Does this mean that I should consider buying one now instead of waiting until June when my current lease expires?
An Internet sales person at a Honda dealer I buy from told me they let her sell below invoice just to move units. The more units they sell the more they can get next month, and the more choice they get. I assume the dealer gets bonuses on the number of units moved per month/quarter/year as well.
This seems to make sense to me. Internet sales people are either salaried or paid on a volume basis, not paid a comission of the sale (I think I read that here somewhere).
Hope this helps, Tom
2011 Toyota Camry, 2014 Jeep Wrangler, 2017 Honda Civic Coupe, 2019 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid XSE, 2021 Toyota Tundra, 2022 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Tesla Model 3
This is the reason for my questions. Do dealers still make money selling a unit below invoice?
Yes we do.
Sounds like you work in the car business. No disrespect intended.
I run the Internet Dept for a pretty large honda dealership and have 5 Salesmen that are in my dept. We (our dealership) average about 185 cars per month, some months more some months less.
No disprespect taken.
Does this mean that I should consider buying one now instead of waiting until June when my current lease expires?
Now you have dipped into a completely different area. From what I gather you have three payments left on your current lease, right? March, April and May. What I would do is this. I would start by approaching different dealerships in your immediate area through their Internet Depts. Make a contact with someone there and set up a time when you can have your car appraised. Let him/her know that you have 3 months left on the lease and that you want to buy an Odyssey at the time your lease is up. Tell them that you want to buy the Ody at invoice or slightly less and the color you want. If they don't have it in stock they might have one inbound or closer to the time when your lease is up. At this point you can reserve the unit for yourself with a deposit, and go about your life until the Ody arrives. We do this all the time here.
I'm in TN. Is there anyone near Nashville that sells for low price? The lowest quote I've gotten is $32,773 (possibly $32,173) for EXL R& N. Thanks Kim
I spoke with Internet Sales from Mike Pruitt Honda in Akron, OH. He could easily beat that price. I purchase mine for $30,743 (including destination charges) + $100 DOC Fees and $25.25 temp tags. It was $300 to ship from Ohio to Virginia. He has a two left if you are interested (I believe Midnight Blue and Redrock Pearl. If you call them, make sure you ask for Internet Sales.
do more research into the vehicle before discussing pricing. I suggest getting a professional demo of the vehicle from the most reputable dealership in your area before coming on here and talking price.
There is no monthly fee associated with the navigation system. You also get XM radio with the R&N model. The first 3 months of radio service is free, then you have to pay or cancel.
Black is very pretty and very hard to keep clean.
See other recent posts for Tennessee pricing. Excellent prices are available in Ohio.
What is the invoice on this vehicle? I really want black with grey leather. I've been told you can't get that and don't won't the ivory with children. What's the best anyone has found this for? Thanks Kim
I was told invoice is 31,674on the EXL R&N. It says someplace on here it is less though. Does anyone know? I've got one dealer down to the 31,674 but now might need to change to touring. Is it worth the extra money? Resell wise will it hold value of the difference? How do some of you get the dealers under invoice $500..I've called Akron Ohio..thanks Will!Bill I have seen the vehicles and just decided about the navigation...thanks Kim
I just had to chime in here to mention that My Wife & I are the proud owners of an 06 Honda Odyssey EX-Leather w/ Entertainment!!!
It is the Desert Rock Metallic Color w/ Ivory Leather. We had USAA Finance & Negotiate the deal on Tuesday. USAA also includes the GAP Coverage in their financing. :shades:
We went down to Honda Cars of Mesa, in Mesa, AZ Today, to finalize everything. Our Sales Rep was WONDERFUL!!! He was a Fleet Mgr.
We ended up paying $31,577 OTD. This includes the 2nd-Row Center Storage Console, the Silencer Security System, & the 5yr/100k/0Ded HondaCare Extended Warranty. (I am thankful to the www.hondawarrantyinfo.com link that floats around Edmunds.com. The F&I Guy agreed to match that price on the Warranty, & he advised that this was pretty much under-cost for the HondaCare Warranty.)
I had a Trade-In that I was hoping to get about $3,750 for. (I arrived @ that figure by averaging what my Trade-In was worth as per KBB, NADA, & Edmunds.com. My Dealer didn't seem all that interested in taking it, but I pressed the issue. :P
He obviously mentioned it'd be to my advantage to sell it myself, but I haven't the time or the inclination to do so. I knew that there was going to need to be some work done in the near future on this Trade-In. That paired w/ the Dealer saying that the clutch would need some work done too. W/ all this said & done, he offered $3,000, & I took it. The little more I could've made selling privately would have ate into the proceeds, so I accepted that offer.
Anyways, I feel I got a good deal, but I'd like to see what you all think!!! Thanks!!!
The invoice according to Edmunds Website including destination charges is $31,623. I think I misquoted it earlier in a post. My mistake.
I was also quoted a Touring with Nav/Res from Mike Pruitt Honda for around $34,xxx. I can't remember exactly what the xxx was, but I believe it was closer to between $34,100 and $34,200. At the time of my posting about a week again, they only had two left and they wanted to move them.
You can call them again to see if they have new stock.
Buying a new Honda and most other new cars should be like shooting fish in a barrel if the buyer follows a simple method and is strong enough to hold their ground inside the dealership.
The fundamental mistake many people make is allowing the price negotiation to be a function of dealer offers. In a new car purchase, the buyer should control the price negotiation.
New cars are commodities, they exist in several dealer locations hungry to sell cars, yet the buyer is only going to buy 1 car.
1. Decide exactly what you want, including ALL factory and dealer-installed options.
2. Use Edmunds to come up with a "safe" cost estimate, something like $500-1000 less than dealer cost. Use the manufacturer's invoice/sticker figures in Edmunds, ignore any extra dealer-created add-on invoices. Cost out that you want.
3. Subtract what your trade-in should bring, if there is a trade.
4. Add tax and title charges. Subtract incentives. (at least in Florida where I live, sales tax is calculated after deducting the trade-in value, and incentives do not reduce the taxable basis)
5. You are now ready to take control of the price negotiation and make offers.
6. Locate the vehicle you want in at least 2 locations.
7. Shop your offer from one location to the other, raising your offer by $100 or $200 or $300 (depending on how hard you want to work) each time you walk out and go to the other location. Never, never raise your offer inside the dealership, only raise your offer when you get to the next location.
8. Always, always ignore the dealer's offer, you are making the offers. As soon as your offer has any gross profit to the dealer, even $50, they can't let you walk out because they know the dealer down the street will get the deal and they will never see you again.
9. Also, do not change your mind regarding what you want in a vehicle without going back to step 1.
10. Step 3 above is critical, it is the only way to deal. Consumer Reports, Ralph Nader and the rest of the people promoting the bad advice of breaking the negotiation into 2 negotiations (new car price and trade-in value) take heed!
TAKE CONTROL AS THE BUYER. YOU ARE BUYING A COMMODITY THAT IS READILY AVAILABLE IN MANY LOCATIONS.
NO, I AM NOT IN THE CAR BUSINESS AND NEVER HAVE BEEN. I JUST LIKE TO BEAT THEM AT THEIR OWN GAME.
EVERY DEAL IS DIFFERENT. SOME DEALERS CAN GIVE MORE FOR THE TRADE THAN OTHERS, SOME MAY HAVE A HOLDBACK ON A PARTICULAR VEHICLE THAT CAN AFFECT THE COST, ALL KINDS OF CRAZY FACTORS CAN COME INTO PLAY, READ BELOW SOME OF MY EXPERIENCES.
I BOUGHT A 1999 HONDA VAN A PRICE I COULD NOT BELIEVE WHEN THEY WERE SO HOT IT WAS HARD TO FIND ONE TO TEST DRIVE. WHY? EXPERIENCED SALESMAN, FIRST DAY ON THE JOB AT THAT DEALERSHIP, AND THEY WANTED TO SEE HIM GET A DEAL HIS FIRST DAY WITH THEM, SO HE FELT GOOD ABOUT HIS DECISION TO GO TO THAT DEALERSHIP.
WHEN I TRADED THAT 1999 FOR A 2002 HONDA VAN, THE 1999 HAD HAD THE SPEEDOMETER/ODOMETER REPLACED UNDER WARRANTY. EVEN SO, THE FEDERAL TITLE LAWS HAD CHANGED AND THE VEHICLE HAD TO BE REPRESENTED AS "TRUE MILEAGE UNKNOWN" LEAVING ME WITH A $5000 PROBLEM IN TRADE VALUE. THE LAST DEALERSHIP I WENT TO AFTER GOING TO 6-7, THE SALESMAN LIED ABOUT THE MILEAGE. I OF COURSE CHECKED OFF THE TMU BOX ON THE TITLE AND FIGURED THE CLOSER WOULD THEN NOT CLOSE THE DEAL. HE ASKED IF I HAD AN INVOICE, WHICH I OF COURSE DID AND CLOSED THE DEAL TO MY SURPRISE. THEY USED THAT VAN AS THEIR SERVICE DEPARTMENT VEHICLE TO TRANSPORT CUSTOMERS.
ANOTHER NOTABLE DEAL... I TOOK A FRIEND TO BUY A CIVIC. THE WINNING DEALERSHIP SAID OK TO OUR PRICE IF WE WOULD COME UP $100 AS WE WERE WALKING OUT, TO WHICH I REPLIED, I DON'T KNOW WHO OWNS HONDALAND, BUT HE'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE RICHEST GUYS IN TAMPA AND IF YOU THINK WE'RE GOING TO GIVE HIM AND EXTRA $100 YOU ARE CRAZY. THEY DID THE DEAL. WHEN I CALLED JOE FROM THE LOSING DEALERSHIP WHO HAD RECENTLY WON MY HONDA ACCORD DEAL, HE SAID THE OTHER DEALERSHIP HAD A "BUY-HERE-PAY-HERE" CAR LOT, TOOK A REAL CHANCE ON THE TRADE, AND HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO WHOLESALE IT OUT. JOE WAS AN EXPERIENCED SALESMAN, KNEW MY METHOD, KNEW WE WERE SERIOUS BUYERS AND STILL LOST THE DEAL BECAUSE OF OTHER FACTORS.
MY POINT... THEY KNOW ALL THE TRICKS, I DON'T AND YOU DON'T. BUT IF YOU MAKE THE OFFERS, TO 2-3 DEALERSHIPS, YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHY THE DEAL WORKED, BUT YOU WILL SAVE A LOT OF MONEY IN MOST CASES AND BEAT THESE GUYS AT THERE OWN GAME.
out the door prices don't tend to mean much as a comparison point, because sales tax differs from state to state. What did you pay excluding sales tax?
I just purchased an '06 Odyseey EX-L w/DVD for $100 over the invoice price, total of $27,696.00. The dealer is working me hard to purchase exterior rustproofing/weather protection for $399 and interior scotch guarding for an additional $300. Also the extended Honda Care warranty. I've already decided against Honda Care at least until the regular warranty is nearly up - does anyone know if the price to purchase Honda Care increases as you get closer to the expiration of the standard warranty?
Also, living in the NorthEast (Buffalo,NY) I am debating about weather protection/rust proofing for the exterior - any suggestions? Is this a waste of money since the manufacturer typically rustproofs prior to assembly/delivery? Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!!
Sorry - typo price paid was $29,796 - the dealer made the same typo actually, but caught it - for a minute at the dealership I thought I was going to get it for $27,796 - I guess that number stuck when I typed my inquiry.
I am interested in purchasing an EX-L this weekend. I received an internet quote from a dealer 3 hours away for $28,258 which includes all fees except TTL. This quote is at least $600 less than the dealer quotes in my area. If I cannot get any of these dealers to lower their price, I may have to drive 6 hours round trip to pick up my van.
I am concerned that the price might go up once I get there or the van will be sold. For those of you that have purchased out of town, what did you do to insure that that there weren't any surprises once you got there? I will be very upset if they sell the van to someone else or raise the price once I get down there.
Guys there is a lot of talk about BELOW INVOICE.....and if a dealer makes any profit.
SIMPLE ANSWER : MSRP & INVOICE prices are advertised prices. These are not the prices that the dealer actually buys the car from the manufactures. I know people working with major car manufactures.
Every vehicle sold has "HOLDBACKS" that are awarded to the dealer. There are one or more than one incentives per vehicle.
Examples HOLDBACK 1 - per vehicle sold HOLDBACK 2 - per batch eg.10 or 25 ect...sold HOLDBACK 3 - 10 or 25 sold in a given period say 1 month or 1 quater.
The dealer is allowed to keep all HOLDBACKS that they qualify for
At different periods in the year there are different HOLDBACKS that are released by the manufacturer.
ADVICE TO THE BUYER : Just negociate the best you can get. Don't worry about the dealer. The are in this business to make money and not for charity...Very seldom the HOLDBACKS are specific to locations. So if you can get a car cheaper in one part of the country then you should be able to get more or less the same price at a different location. In all fairness you need to consider operating cost in dirrerent parts of the country.
I am confused about the Exterior color options and the 05 and 06 Odyssey Touring. I have seen a light gray and dark gray on the road but I can not find the right color on the Honda web site. Is it Slate green Metallic or Sage brush. All I know is that it looks like a dark gray on the road.
Can anyone tell me what they have paid for a 06 Touring Nav/DVD and whats a good deal and where to shop on the web. Is Invoice price good or not?
I am confused about the Exterior color options and the 05 and 06 Odyssey Touring. I have seen a light gray and dark gray on the road but I can not find the right color on the Honda web site. Is it Slate green Metallic or Sage brush. All I know is that it looks like a dark gray on the road.
Can anyone tell me what they have paid for a 06 Touring Nav/DVD and whats a good deal and where to shop on the web. Is Invoice price good or not?
Thanks for ur help
Lighter gray = slate Darker gray = sage brush
I haven't had any experience with 06 Touring prices. Sorry.
LX ODYSSEY: $22,810 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY! EX ODYSSEY: $25,551 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY! EX-L ODYSSEY: $27,708 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY! EX-L WITH DVD: $29,146 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY! EX-L WITH DVD AND NAVIGATION: $32,288 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY!
Prices are plus tax and tags only and are good on in stock units. Offer expires at the close of business Tuesday Feburary 28, 2006.
It's not clear that the price includes the doc fee and destination charge. If included, I think it's a good deal.
These are great prices for this area. When I was comparing prices in VA/DC/MD area, they gave me the best deal. My associate stated he could have given me invoice (I believe $31,123) for the EXL with NAV/DVD. I decided to go with Mike Pruitt Honda ($30,743).
Will
P.S. MTBGO is right, those prices may not include destination charge of $550 and doc fees.
Although things can go wrong, I've bought several new cars sight unseen out of town and never had a problem. It has always seemed to me that they view such a purchase as a bonus for them and are not about to do anything to louse it up.
You now have a written offer (or, possibly, acceptance) at a given price in your hand. If you've truly worried due to bad vibes from this particular dealer, go elsewhere.
If you just want reassurance, call them with a credit card number and put some money (say $500) down AFTER they fax or email you a signed purchase order (it should include the VIN of the unit you are buying).
You could also post the dealer name here to see if anyone has done business with them.
I get emails from Landmark Honda. They will not give you an out the door price unless you pester them. Their OTD pricng is loaded with options and fees.
We had one Honda dealership advertise a similar thing amonth or sao agop...the fines print said "not includeing freight, options...etc etc" The headline read OUT THE DOOR PRICES.
The price advertised does not include the processing fee or the destination fee. In fact, we have eliminated them completly. You WILL NOT PAY destination or processing fee or the Appearance Package. The only fees you have to pay are the Taxes and Tags. We can not eleminate them because they are collected by the state. When can you come in and do the paperwork?
Though I would give back to all the reading I have done. Saved a number e-mails by following the advice of other posters in the SF Bay Area. Dublin emailed a price quote of $27,990 + tax + lic. They had the Ocean Mist in an EX-L no RES (bigger screens in the aftermarket)in stock. I set an afternoon appointment and the 06 Odyssey was ready to go cleaned and prepped. In addition to the price was tire disposal $8, doc fees $45 and smog abatement $12. Only 22 miles on the car as is was a dealer swap.
"The price advertised does not include the processing fee or the destination fee. In fact, we have eliminated them completly. You WILL NOT PAY destination or processing fee or the Appearance Package. The only fees you have to pay are the Taxes and Tags. We can not eleminate them because they are collected by the state. When can you come in and do the paperwork?"
"EX-L WITH DVD AND NAVIGATION: $32,288 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY"
This is going to sound stupid, but again you need to look at everything.
$32,288 INCLUDES everything right? Except tax and tags. I sell the EXL RES/Nav for $31473. So based on that and adding spalsh guards (199) and wheel locks(99) Dealer Processing (99) I'm about 418 less, but that is what VA dealers charge for Processing...right?
Ok the game works like this, they add those things into the selling price and then say that they are not charging for them. I got it now. I'm not posting this to try to sell you anything, but to help decipher their ads.
I don't get your point. You sell them cheaper than this price?
2011 Toyota Camry, 2014 Jeep Wrangler, 2017 Honda Civic Coupe, 2019 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid XSE, 2021 Toyota Tundra, 2022 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Tesla Model 3
Be careful, Va dealers are crafty. Have them email you an itemized list and total price, not just their statement "The price advertised does not include the processing fee blah...blah..blah" If they are honest they will itemize evertyhing with a total price and email it to you, so there are no surprises. Va dealers do not have the same consumer laws as imposed on Md dealers. For example Bill Page Honda charges: Dealer processing fee $279, VA advertising fee $??, etc. They try to bring you into the dealership and hope you pay. I think MD dealers are capped at $99 for dealer processing fee by law. I bought two cars in recent years. Last year a VA dealer lured me in the same way, but after arguing for half hour, waived all the fees. A big waste of time.
This year I emailed several dealers and went to Hersons Honda in MD to get my Odyssey, because they met my price, itemized everything in an email and deleted all fees before I walked into the dealership. I was in and out under an hour (including a test drive and getting tags) on a (early) Saturday morning. Good luck.
The sense I got from that copy of the e-mail... is that they weren't going to add anything further to the price..
You know.. . how a dealer will quote you a really low price.. that you think is the final number.. and then you get there.. and they say, "Oh.. that number doesn't include destination, dealer prep, doc fee."
My impression is that they were trying to say there would be no further additions to the price, except for state mandated fees...
My wife and I went in to the David McDavid Honda in Frisco a couple of months back to look at the new Hondas. We weren't planning to buy until March at the earliest and the salesperson was very helpful even after we told him this.
Friday I got a call from a different salesman (same dealership) saying something to the effect of "We know you're in the market and we've got some aggressive pricing to get a few sales at the end of a slow month. I asked for emailed quotes on EX and EXL with mudguards and cargo tray. His response: "EX INVOICE: 26,101.71 EXL INVOICE: 28.258.43 Our special internet price is 500 over invoice plus any additional eqpt. Most of our vans already have the mudguards and cargo tray installed. Vehicles that have been on the lot for a while are more likely to get additional discounts."
My counter-offer: "New 2006 Ody EX with mudguards and cargo tray. Invoice $26102 + mudguards $133 + cargo tray $117 + profit $200 = $26,552
New 2006 Ody EX-L with mudguards and cargo tray. Invoice $2858 + mudguards $133 + cargo tray $117 = $28,508"
His response: "We can do that for you. "
I've sent one more email setting an appointment and asking for final out-the-door numbers (before my trade-in) but got no response. I figure there's 3 possible reasons: 1) He was busy on a (rainy) Saturday. 2) He doesn't want me shopping the quote to other dealers 3) He doesn't want to disclose some unexpected fees
My experiences with this dealership have been pretty positive, especially compared to our other recent dealership experience (Sport City Toyota where the Sienna's were ALL loaded with useless and overpriced dealer add-ons and the salesman seemed to lack vehicle and inventory knowledge). So given that there's no surprise fees and they give a reasonable quote on my trade-in, this will probably happen.
It is unfortuate that you could not see the newspaper add. I got the email as well and looked deeper into it. I did not find anything in the email, but I assumed there would be at least an additional $550 destination charge...but on the Washington Post, I saw the exact email in advertisement form and they specifically stated additional destination charge, doc fee, and processing fee.
I didn't even played games with anyone from MD/VA/DC. That is why I went with Mike Pruitt Honda for my Odyssey. Did everything over emails/phone/fed ex. Expecting my van to be shipped this week.
After I decided on them, everything took less than two days to finalize all the paperwork.
I learned a valuable lesson this weekend when I purchased my Odyssey. When a dealer tells you that the price includes all fees, except tax, title and license, make sure he tells you EXACTLY how much the tax, title and license will be. Calculate the sales tax yourself and find out what the title and license should cost in your state.
The lowest internet bid I received was for $200 under invoice. This bid was supposed to include all fees, except tax, title and license. Since I was going to have to drive 2 hours to get a van at this price, I asked the dealer to tell me a final price after tax, title and license was added. I got my calculator out and discovered that the quoted amount was $400 over what it should be. I guess he figured I wouldn't notice the error. Since he added $400 onto the price of the TTL, the deal was actually for $200 OVER invoice. I almost drove 2 hours to purchase the van from this dealer. I am glad I caught the error before I drove down there.
I ended up getting my EX-L from the dealer in my hometown for $28,258 which included splash guards and all fees. It was a very pleasant buying experience.
Thanks to all who have given so much valuable information in this form. I just want to share some thoughts on my buying experience this past weekend.
I bought an EX-L w/RES and NAV for $31,400 (includes destination) +TTL from Bloomington Honda. Going through the internet and e-mail was key for me to get that price. Although not the lowest in the midwest it was very good for the Twin Cities. I admit that I am a poor negotiator face to face. But e-mail allows me to compose my thoughts and to offer a counter without so much pressure or stress. And when they gave me the "final offer" I was able to walk away with a simple "if you change your mind, e-mail me..." They did and I got the price I wanted.
That was the last pleasent thing that happened during this transaction. After I arrived at the dealership it was like fingernails down a chalk board. A parade of people to look over the paperwork, one actually said "I understand you've got Butch Casidy here who just stole one of our cars!" Did he just say that? He had other gems too. And the final meeting with finance guy was like talking to my four year old-"what part of no don't you understand?" He tried to sell me a 7/100/100 insurance plan (arranged by Resource Automotive) that originally was $2400, but was willing to give me the "good guy discount" of $1596. I then showed him my HondaCare quote from Bernardi Honda (thanks to the form) for $1006. That quieted him up and made him squirm a bit. He didn't match it.
Overall I wouldn't recommend this dealership. A lot of high pressure sales tactics, not professional and not a pleasurable experience. In fairness the internet sales person I dealt with was pleasant, knowledgeable and professional.
Hopes this helps all of you in the Twin Cities...happy car shopping!
I tell my sales people that we think of things differently than what a customer does and we have to respect their point of view.
"We" think of a car purchase in terms of profit. "That deal was $1500 gross profit"
The customer thinks of it as "I just spoent $31,000 dollars!" Big difference in point of view.
I had a customer the other day who bought an Ody from me. When he and his wife came in to take delivery we had a chance to talk openly after everything was finished. FWIW I've found that you have to have the deal out of the way before the customer will be honest with you. I asked him about our "process" how did he like it? What did he dislike about it? etc ".
He told me "It was all about the price"
I looked at him and said "You mean that I could have called you an idiot and a goof, and because my price was lower that the last guy...I would have stiil got your business?"
His wife laugheed at the comment and said "NOOOO! You didn't make us feel like we were trying to rob you with this."
I guess it goes to respecting the customers time and money.
You'll love your new Ody. The Nav system is the bomb!
Many thanks to all for the info this forum has provided me.
Yesterday, I bought an EX-L R&N in Slate Green w/ Olive from San Leandro Honda. The transaction was the easiest and best experience I've ever had buying a vehicle. Everything was done via email with their internet saleperson until I went in person. There was no pressure. They asked if I wanted the HondaCare warranty, but didn't persist when I said "no."
I paid $32,673 including destination. There was doc fee of $45 and tire fee of ~$8, but the rest was TTL. Although I got the same quote of $1K over invoice from numerous dealers in the Bay Area (Oakland, El Cerrito, Capitol, Anderson). I bought from San Leandro because they bought my 2004 Odyssey lease. I had 2 months remaining. They called Honda, got the payoff amount and will take care of the rest. I won't have to make my last 2 lease payments and I only have to insure a single van now. If any of you who have a lease that expires soon and don't want to wait to get a 2006, you can ask the saleperson for a similar deal.
Finance manager was also very pleasant. He didn't try to push me on any of the extras like PermaPlate and stuff. When I declined, he didn't ask again. I got the 4.9% financing. It's the same rate for 36-60 months.
I just paid $27,634 for an ex-l at Continental Honda in Countryside Il. I started with bottom line from consumer reports of $27,434 over the phone salesman said o.k. to the $27,634 including destination over the phone. I bought the car in 1 1/2 hours with no b.s. I still dont believe it was that easy.
Comments
1) I can understand where a dealer typically does'nt want to be underpriced by another and lose a sale, but how competitive can I expect them to be when the selling price is below invoice (if I threaten to travel a few hours away to get a better deal - which I am not opposed to)? I assume that I will need something in writing/email from the other dealers in order to be taken seriously?
2) If it is commonplace to get an Odyssey for approx $500 under invoice, then is the 'invoice' cost we use as buyers really what the dealer pays, or is there usually some kind of cusion, that still makes selling the vehicle at this level feasible? Will the dealer actually lose money on the deal (in hopes of making it up on a subsequent customers)?
Again, my apologies for some ignorant questions, but perhaps I am not the only one pondering over some of these things. Thanks again for this boards insights!
How competitive? Well let's see. If you are quoted a price under invoice, then the dealer will probably make no effort to bend or cave to a lower price. They will figure what they have to make in order for them to feel decent about doing the deal.
Please understand that the Odyssey is a very seasonal product...and that season is coming upon us. Dealers will sell every Odyssey on their lots and that are inbound...irregardless whether you say you're going out of the area or not. I think that's something that most of you all don't realize.
If it is commonplace to get an Odyssey for approx $500 under invoice, then is the 'invoice' cost we use as buyers really what the dealer pays, or is there usually some kind of cusion, that still makes selling the vehicle at this level feasible? Will the dealer actually lose money on the deal (in hopes of making it up on a subsequent customers)?"
Do you just realize what you said? How would you feel if a dealer said that to you? Or if you heard a salesman next to you say to his customer?
Anything at or below invoice is a very good price on an Odyssey.
This is the reason for my questions. Do dealers still make money selling a unit below invoice? If not, then why do they do this? For a below invoice price to be considered the 'target range' for this vehicle, it must happen pretty often. What justification do I have to expect to buy an Odyssey at below invoice? Sure, I'll be driving a pretty vehicle around town, offering brand recognition and advertising the specific dealers sticker on the back, not to mention any word of mouth references. Is this what persuades a dealer to sell a vehicle below invoice even if they might be in the red on the deal? They can't do this for everyone. Unless Honda dealers get a 'bonus' from the manufacturer if they meet a sales quota for the month/quarter?
"Do you just realize what you said? How would you feel if a dealer said that to you? Or if you heard a salesman next to you say to his customer?"
Sounds like you work in the car business. No disrespect intended. Of course you wouldnt say something like that, but if the dealer does a deal that is not at all profitable, then they are probably thinking it... I am just trying to make sense of the whole below invoice thing.
"Please understand that the Odyssey is a very seasonal product..."
Does this mean that I should consider buying one now instead of waiting until June when my current lease expires?
Thanks for your input.
This seems to make sense to me. Internet sales people are either salaried or paid on a volume basis, not paid a comission of the sale (I think I read that here somewhere).
Hope this helps, Tom
Yes we do.
Sounds like you work in the car business. No disrespect intended.
I run the Internet Dept for a pretty large honda dealership and have 5 Salesmen that are in my dept. We (our dealership) average about 185 cars per month, some months more some months less.
No disprespect taken.
Does this mean that I should consider buying one now instead of waiting until June when my current lease expires?
Now you have dipped into a completely different area. From what I gather you have three payments left on your current lease, right? March, April and May. What I would do is this. I would start by approaching different dealerships in your immediate area through their Internet Depts. Make a contact with someone there and set up a time when you can have your car appraised. Let him/her know that you have 3 months left on the lease and that you want to buy an Odyssey at the time your lease is up. Tell them that you want to buy the Ody at invoice or slightly less and the color you want. If they don't have it in stock they might have one inbound or closer to the time when your lease is up. At this point you can reserve the unit for yourself with a deposit, and go about your life until the Ody arrives. We do this all the time here.
Good luck, they are GREAT cars!
I spoke with Internet Sales from Mike Pruitt Honda in Akron, OH. He could easily beat that price. I purchase mine for $30,743 (including destination charges) + $100 DOC Fees and $25.25 temp tags. It was $300 to ship from Ohio to Virginia. He has a two left if you are interested (I believe Midnight Blue and Redrock Pearl. If you call them, make sure you ask for Internet Sales.
Will
Black is very pretty and very hard to keep clean.
See other recent posts for Tennessee pricing. Excellent prices are available in Ohio.
It is the Desert Rock Metallic Color w/ Ivory Leather. We had USAA Finance & Negotiate the deal on Tuesday. USAA also includes the GAP Coverage in their financing. :shades:
We went down to Honda Cars of Mesa, in Mesa, AZ Today, to finalize everything. Our Sales Rep was WONDERFUL!!! He was a Fleet Mgr.
We ended up paying $31,577 OTD. This includes the 2nd-Row Center Storage Console, the Silencer Security System, & the 5yr/100k/0Ded HondaCare Extended Warranty. (I am thankful to the www.hondawarrantyinfo.com link that floats around Edmunds.com. The F&I Guy agreed to match that price on the Warranty, & he advised that this was pretty much under-cost for the HondaCare Warranty.)
I had a Trade-In that I was hoping to get about $3,750 for. (I arrived @ that figure by averaging what my Trade-In was worth as per KBB, NADA, & Edmunds.com. My Dealer didn't seem all that interested in taking it, but I pressed the issue. :P
He obviously mentioned it'd be to my advantage to sell it myself, but I haven't the time or the inclination to do so. I knew that there was going to need to be some work done in the near future on this Trade-In. That paired w/ the Dealer saying that the clutch would need some work done too. W/ all this said & done, he offered $3,000, & I took it. The little more I could've made selling privately would have ate into the proceeds, so I accepted that offer.
Anyways, I feel I got a good deal, but I'd like to see what you all think!!! Thanks!!!
The invoice according to Edmunds Website including destination charges is $31,623. I think I misquoted it earlier in a post. My mistake.
I was also quoted a Touring with Nav/Res from Mike Pruitt Honda for around $34,xxx. I can't remember exactly what the xxx was, but I believe it was closer to between $34,100 and $34,200. At the time of my posting about a week again, they only had two left and they wanted to move them.
You can call them again to see if they have new stock.
The fundamental mistake many people make is allowing the price negotiation to be a function of dealer offers. In a new car purchase, the buyer should control the price negotiation.
New cars are commodities, they exist in several dealer locations hungry to sell cars, yet the buyer is only going to buy 1 car.
1. Decide exactly what you want, including ALL factory and dealer-installed options.
2. Use Edmunds to come up with a "safe" cost estimate, something like $500-1000 less than dealer cost. Use the manufacturer's invoice/sticker figures in Edmunds, ignore any extra dealer-created add-on invoices. Cost out that you want.
3. Subtract what your trade-in should bring, if there is a trade.
4. Add tax and title charges. Subtract incentives. (at least in Florida where I live, sales tax is calculated after deducting the trade-in value, and incentives do not reduce the taxable basis)
5. You are now ready to take control of the price negotiation and make offers.
6. Locate the vehicle you want in at least 2 locations.
7. Shop your offer from one location to the other, raising your offer by $100 or $200 or $300 (depending on how hard you want to work) each time you walk out and go to the other location. Never, never raise your offer inside the dealership, only raise your offer when you get to the next location.
8. Always, always ignore the dealer's offer, you are making the offers. As soon as your offer has any gross profit to the dealer, even $50, they can't let you walk out because they know the dealer down the street will get the deal and they will never see you again.
9. Also, do not change your mind regarding what you want in a vehicle without going back to step 1.
10. Step 3 above is critical, it is the only way to deal. Consumer Reports, Ralph Nader and the rest of the people promoting the bad advice of breaking the negotiation into 2 negotiations (new car price and trade-in value) take heed!
TAKE CONTROL AS THE BUYER. YOU ARE BUYING A COMMODITY THAT IS READILY AVAILABLE IN MANY LOCATIONS.
NO, I AM NOT IN THE CAR BUSINESS AND NEVER HAVE BEEN. I JUST LIKE TO BEAT THEM AT THEIR OWN GAME.
EVERY DEAL IS DIFFERENT. SOME DEALERS CAN GIVE MORE FOR THE TRADE THAN OTHERS, SOME MAY HAVE A HOLDBACK ON A PARTICULAR VEHICLE THAT CAN AFFECT THE COST, ALL KINDS OF CRAZY FACTORS CAN COME INTO PLAY, READ BELOW SOME OF MY EXPERIENCES.
I BOUGHT A 1999 HONDA VAN A PRICE I COULD NOT BELIEVE WHEN THEY WERE SO HOT IT WAS HARD TO FIND ONE TO TEST DRIVE. WHY? EXPERIENCED SALESMAN, FIRST DAY ON THE JOB AT THAT DEALERSHIP, AND THEY WANTED TO SEE HIM GET A DEAL HIS FIRST DAY WITH THEM, SO HE FELT GOOD ABOUT HIS DECISION TO GO TO THAT DEALERSHIP.
WHEN I TRADED THAT 1999 FOR A 2002 HONDA VAN, THE 1999 HAD HAD THE SPEEDOMETER/ODOMETER REPLACED UNDER WARRANTY. EVEN SO, THE FEDERAL TITLE LAWS HAD CHANGED AND THE VEHICLE HAD TO BE REPRESENTED AS "TRUE MILEAGE UNKNOWN" LEAVING ME WITH A $5000 PROBLEM IN TRADE VALUE. THE LAST DEALERSHIP I WENT TO AFTER GOING TO 6-7, THE SALESMAN LIED ABOUT THE MILEAGE. I OF COURSE CHECKED OFF THE TMU BOX ON THE TITLE AND FIGURED THE CLOSER WOULD THEN NOT CLOSE THE DEAL. HE ASKED IF I HAD AN INVOICE, WHICH I OF COURSE DID AND CLOSED THE DEAL TO MY SURPRISE. THEY USED THAT VAN AS THEIR SERVICE DEPARTMENT VEHICLE TO TRANSPORT CUSTOMERS.
ANOTHER NOTABLE DEAL... I TOOK A FRIEND TO BUY A CIVIC. THE WINNING DEALERSHIP SAID OK TO OUR PRICE IF WE WOULD COME UP $100 AS WE WERE WALKING OUT, TO WHICH I REPLIED, I DON'T KNOW WHO OWNS HONDALAND, BUT HE'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE RICHEST GUYS IN TAMPA AND IF YOU THINK WE'RE GOING TO GIVE HIM AND EXTRA $100 YOU ARE CRAZY. THEY DID THE DEAL. WHEN I CALLED JOE FROM THE LOSING DEALERSHIP WHO HAD RECENTLY WON MY HONDA ACCORD DEAL, HE SAID THE OTHER DEALERSHIP HAD A "BUY-HERE-PAY-HERE" CAR LOT, TOOK A REAL CHANCE ON THE TRADE, AND HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO WHOLESALE IT OUT. JOE WAS AN EXPERIENCED SALESMAN, KNEW MY METHOD, KNEW WE WERE SERIOUS BUYERS AND STILL LOST THE DEAL BECAUSE OF OTHER FACTORS.
MY POINT... THEY KNOW ALL THE TRICKS, I DON'T AND YOU DON'T. BUT IF YOU MAKE THE OFFERS, TO 2-3 DEALERSHIPS, YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHY THE DEAL WORKED, BUT YOU WILL SAVE A LOT OF MONEY IN MOST CASES AND BEAT THESE GUYS AT THERE OWN GAME.
USE THEIR GREED AGAINST THEM!!!!
Also, living in the NorthEast (Buffalo,NY) I am debating about weather protection/rust proofing for the exterior - any suggestions? Is this a waste of money since the manufacturer typically rustproofs prior to assembly/delivery? Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!!
Thanks!
I am concerned that the price might go up once I get there or the van will be sold. For those of you that have purchased out of town, what did you do to insure that that there weren't any surprises once you got there? I will be very upset if they sell the van to someone else or raise the price once I get down there.
SIMPLE ANSWER :
MSRP & INVOICE prices are advertised prices. These are not the prices that the dealer actually buys the car from the manufactures. I know people working with major car manufactures.
Every vehicle sold has "HOLDBACKS" that are awarded to the dealer. There are one or more than one incentives per vehicle.
Examples
HOLDBACK 1 - per vehicle sold
HOLDBACK 2 - per batch eg.10 or 25 ect...sold
HOLDBACK 3 - 10 or 25 sold in a given period say 1 month or 1 quater.
The dealer is allowed to keep all HOLDBACKS that they qualify for
At different periods in the year there are different HOLDBACKS that are released by the manufacturer.
ADVICE TO THE BUYER :
Just negociate the best you can get. Don't worry about the dealer. The are in this business to make money and not for charity...Very seldom the HOLDBACKS are specific to locations. So if you can get a car cheaper in one part of the country then you should be able to get more or less the same price at a different location. In all fairness you need to consider operating cost in dirrerent parts of the country.
All the best and GOD BLESS...
Can anyone tell me what they have paid for a 06 Touring Nav/DVD and whats a good deal and where to shop on the web. Is Invoice price good or not?
Thanks for ur help
Can anyone tell me what they have paid for a 06 Touring Nav/DVD and whats a good deal and where to shop on the web. Is Invoice price good or not?
Thanks for ur help
Lighter gray = slate
Darker gray = sage brush
I haven't had any experience with 06 Touring prices. Sorry.
EX ODYSSEY: $25,551 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY!
EX-L ODYSSEY: $27,708 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY!
EX-L WITH DVD: $29,146 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY!
EX-L WITH DVD AND NAVIGATION: $32,288 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY!
Prices are plus tax and tags only and are good on in stock units. Offer expires at the close of business Tuesday Feburary 28, 2006.
It's not clear that the price includes the doc fee and destination charge. If included, I think it's a good deal.
Will
P.S. MTBGO is right, those prices may not include destination charge of $550 and doc fees.
You now have a written offer (or, possibly, acceptance) at a given price in your hand. If you've truly worried due to bad vibes from this particular dealer, go elsewhere.
If you just want reassurance, call them with a credit card number and put some money (say $500) down AFTER they fax or email you a signed purchase order (it should include the VIN of the unit you are buying).
You could also post the dealer name here to see if anyone has done business with them.
We had one Honda dealership advertise a similar thing amonth or sao agop...the fines print said "not includeing freight, options...etc etc" The headline read OUT THE DOOR PRICES.
The price advertised does not include the processing fee or the destination fee. In fact, we have eliminated them completly. You WILL NOT PAY destination or processing fee or the Appearance Package. The only fees you have to pay are the Taxes and Tags. We can not eleminate them because they are collected by the state. When can you come in and do the paperwork?
I think it's a good deal.
This doesn't make sense...caveat emptor.
Ok, I see what the deal is now.
"EX-L WITH DVD AND NAVIGATION: $32,288 PLUS TAX AND TAGS ONLY"
This is going to sound stupid, but again you need to look at everything.
$32,288 INCLUDES everything right? Except tax and tags. I sell the EXL RES/Nav for $31473. So based on that and adding spalsh guards (199) and wheel locks(99) Dealer Processing (99) I'm about 418 less, but that is what VA dealers charge for Processing...right?
Ok the game works like this, they add those things into the selling price and then say that they are not charging for them. I got it now. I'm not posting this to try to sell you anything, but to help decipher their ads.
Does this make any sense?
This year I emailed several dealers and went to Hersons Honda in MD to get my Odyssey, because they met my price, itemized everything in an email and deleted all fees before I walked into the dealership. I was in and out under an hour (including a test drive and getting tags) on a (early) Saturday morning. Good luck.
You know.. . how a dealer will quote you a really low price.. that you think is the final number.. and then you get there.. and they say, "Oh.. that number doesn't include destination, dealer prep, doc fee."
My impression is that they were trying to say there would be no further additions to the price, except for state mandated fees...
That is a good thing...
regards,
kyfdx
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Friday I got a call from a different salesman (same dealership) saying something to the effect of "We know you're in the market and we've got some aggressive pricing to get a few sales at the end of a slow month. I asked for emailed quotes on EX and EXL with mudguards and cargo tray. His response:
"EX INVOICE: 26,101.71
EXL INVOICE: 28.258.43
Our special internet price is 500 over invoice plus any additional eqpt. Most of our vans already have the mudguards and cargo tray installed. Vehicles that have been on the lot for a while are more likely to get additional discounts."
My counter-offer:
"New 2006 Ody EX with mudguards and cargo tray.
Invoice $26102 + mudguards $133 + cargo tray $117 + profit $200 = $26,552
New 2006 Ody EX-L with mudguards and cargo tray.
Invoice $2858 + mudguards $133 + cargo tray $117 = $28,508"
His response:
"We can do that for you. "
I've sent one more email setting an appointment and asking for final out-the-door numbers (before my trade-in) but got no response. I figure there's 3 possible reasons:
1) He was busy on a (rainy) Saturday.
2) He doesn't want me shopping the quote to other dealers
3) He doesn't want to disclose some unexpected fees
My experiences with this dealership have been pretty positive, especially compared to our other recent dealership experience (Sport City Toyota where the Sienna's were ALL loaded with useless and overpriced dealer add-ons and the salesman seemed to lack vehicle and inventory knowledge). So given that there's no surprise fees and they give a reasonable quote on my trade-in, this will probably happen.
I didn't even played games with anyone from MD/VA/DC. That is why I went with Mike Pruitt Honda for my Odyssey. Did everything over emails/phone/fed ex. Expecting my van to be shipped this week.
After I decided on them, everything took less than two days to finalize all the paperwork.
Will
The lowest internet bid I received was for $200 under invoice. This bid was supposed to include all fees, except tax, title and license. Since I was going to have to drive 2 hours to get a van at this price, I asked the dealer to tell me a final price after tax, title and license was added. I got my calculator out and discovered that the quoted amount was $400 over what it should be. I guess he figured I wouldn't notice the error. Since he added $400 onto the price of the TTL, the deal was actually for $200 OVER invoice. I almost drove 2 hours to purchase the van from this dealer. I am glad I caught the error before I drove down there.
I ended up getting my EX-L from the dealer in my hometown for $28,258 which included splash guards and all fees. It was a very pleasant buying experience.
I bought an EX-L w/RES and NAV for $31,400 (includes destination) +TTL from Bloomington Honda. Going through the internet and e-mail was key for me to get that price. Although not the lowest in the midwest it was very good for the Twin Cities. I admit that I am a poor negotiator face to face. But e-mail allows me to compose my thoughts and to offer a counter without so much pressure or stress. And when they gave me the "final offer" I was able to walk away with a simple "if you change your mind, e-mail me..." They did and I got the price I wanted.
That was the last pleasent thing that happened during this transaction. After I arrived at the dealership it was like fingernails down a chalk board. A parade of people to look over the paperwork, one actually said "I understand you've got Butch Casidy here who just stole one of our cars!" Did he just say that? He had other gems too. And the final meeting with finance guy was like talking to my four year old-"what part of no don't you understand?" He tried to sell me a 7/100/100 insurance plan (arranged by Resource Automotive) that originally was $2400, but was willing to give me the "good guy discount" of $1596. I then showed him my HondaCare quote from Bernardi Honda (thanks to the form) for $1006. That quieted him up and made him squirm a bit. He didn't match it.
Overall I wouldn't recommend this dealership. A lot of high pressure sales tactics, not professional and not a pleasurable experience. In fairness the internet sales person I dealt with was pleasant, knowledgeable and professional.
Hopes this helps all of you in the Twin Cities...happy car shopping!
I tell my sales people that we think of things differently than what a customer does and we have to respect their point of view.
"We" think of a car purchase in terms of profit. "That deal was $1500 gross profit"
The customer thinks of it as "I just spoent $31,000 dollars!" Big difference in point of view.
I had a customer the other day who bought an Ody from me. When he and his wife came in to take delivery we had a chance to talk openly after everything was finished. FWIW I've found that you have to have the deal out of the way before the customer will be honest with you. I asked him about our "process" how did he like it? What did he dislike about it? etc ".
He told me "It was all about the price"
I looked at him and said "You mean that I could have called you an idiot and a goof, and because my price was lower that the last guy...I would have stiil got your business?"
His wife laugheed at the comment and said "NOOOO! You didn't make us feel like we were trying to rob you with this."
I guess it goes to respecting the customers time and money.
You'll love your new Ody. The Nav system is the bomb!
Yesterday, I bought an EX-L R&N in Slate Green w/ Olive from San Leandro Honda. The transaction was the easiest and best experience I've ever had buying a vehicle. Everything was done via email with their internet saleperson until I went in person. There was no pressure. They asked if I wanted the HondaCare warranty, but didn't persist when I said "no."
I paid $32,673 including destination. There was doc fee of $45 and tire fee of ~$8, but the rest was TTL. Although I got the same quote of $1K over invoice from numerous dealers in the Bay Area (Oakland, El Cerrito, Capitol, Anderson). I bought from San Leandro because they bought my 2004 Odyssey lease. I had 2 months remaining. They called Honda, got the payoff amount and will take care of the rest. I won't have to make my last 2 lease payments and I only have to insure a single van now. If any of you who have a lease that expires soon and don't want to wait to get a 2006, you can ask the saleperson for a similar deal.
Finance manager was also very pleasant. He didn't try to push me on any of the extras like PermaPlate and stuff. When I declined, he didn't ask again. I got the 4.9% financing. It's the same rate for 36-60 months.